PJ Joins Campaign to close Gitmo

Paul Andrews

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Paul Andrews wrote:

We've thwatted at least three attacks. Our last government did us no favours in world standing.

where u sent troops??

These atacks were based on Australian soil aimed at landmarks inside Australia. One case is before the court system as we speak. However, the offenders are not in a military prison, they are in super max criminal prisons and have been tried in a court of law. As they should be as these are not really acts of war - but criminal acts planned and committed by mass murderers - not soldiers figthing under a national flag.

Australia has been targets in attacks in Indonesia - two rounds of bombing in Bali - I lost friends/associates in both the Sari Club (I'd been there many times) and Jimbaran Bay (I'd been there lots too). The Australian embasy in Jakata was bombed as well as hotels in Jakata frequented by Australians. Extremists in the region have no love for us. The Australian Embassy in Singapore was also targeted but the plot foiled. Jamah Islamiyah and Abu Sayef (sp??) have been active for a long time.

Our troups are everywhere (alsmost) US troups are and even some they are not. This includes our Army, SAS, Airforce and Navy. There is a treaty called the ANZUS pact where if you attack one, you attack both and both countries support each other as a first response (which I support).

At present were have troup in or have been in:
Afghanistan
Iraq (SAS were first on the ground pre invation and air attacks, Airforce in raids and nofly zone activities, Navy in Blockade)
Bosnia
East Timor (main force there)
Solomon Islands (main force there)
and many other places as peace keeprs.

dimitrispearljam

Paul Andrews wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Paul Andrews wrote:

We've thwatted at least three attacks. Our last government did us no favours in world standing.

where u sent troops??

These atacks were based on Australian soil aimed at landmarks inside Australia. Oncecase is before the court system as we speak. However, the offenders are not in a military prison, they are in super max criminal prisons and have been tried in a court of law.

Australia has been targets in attacks in Indonesia - two rounds of bombing in Bali - I lost friends/associates in both the Sari CLub (I'd been there many times) and Jimbaran Bay (I'd been there lots too). The Australian embasy in Jakata was bombed as well as hotels in Jakate frequented by Australians. Extremists in the region have no love for us.

Our troups are everywhere (alsmost) US troups are and even some they are not. This includes our Army, SAS, Airforce and Navy. There is a treaty called the ANZUS pact where if you attack one, you attack both and both countries support each other as a first response (which I support).

At present were have troup in or have been in:
Afghanistan
Iraq (SAS were first on the ground pre invation and air attacks, Airforce in raids and nofly zone activities, Navy in Blockade)
Bosnia
East Timor (main force there)
Solomon Islands (main force there)
and many other places as peace keeprs.

SHIT..TOO MANY BLEEDS TO COVER..

ScottBravesFan

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

I understand where making people listen to Riot Act for 24 hours would be considered torture.....

You are insane, Riot Act is a great record.


As for people against closing GITMO, you do realize that these people would go to prison if found guilty right? Just like terrorist who blew up the Oklahoma City building in 95. It's not like they are going to get to go outside and play whiffle ball all day. I know conservatives don't watch MSNBC but they have this show on called Lock up on the weekends and if I had a choice of sitting around Cuba or going to a real U.S. prison, I'll take Cuba. You go to real prison they aren't going to give a shit about letting them pray 5 days daily and they better watch their backs when it's time to go into the yard. And before people start ripping on me saying how i'm a liberal, I could care less if they torture actual terrorist to get information. These people are fucked up and have no place in society. Certain people are just not equipped to function in a normal society. People who blow up buildings because their stupid religion, and that goes for the Christian terrorist like the Olympic bomber in Atlanta and the two guys who blew up Oklahoma City building, tells them so should not be allowed to function in society. Lock them up and throw away the key. And while we are at it child molesters and rapist should be put away for life as well.

PJMEMama

OK, I read through the whole thread, and I feel like I have to add my perspective. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. Our legal system, flawed as it may be, and our Constitution is what we have to stand between the power of the state and the individual person who is subject to that power. It defines our basic principles of who we are: our country was founded on the idea that the individual human condition includes essential freedoms and basic dignity. When we start to say, well, those principles apply most of the time, but sometimes when (someone) decides its really important, we can throw it out the window, it makes me feel really insecure, and afraid, and pissed off. Really? We're going to compromise our core values, give up the things that make us what we are, because of this attack on us? Do we really think that unless we torture people, we'll be living in the reconstituted Ottoman Empire? And that if we do torture them, we'll avoid that? This why I agree with those who have said that when we torture, when we throw out or core values, the terrorists win, because we have then lost part of who we are.

What countries try detainees in kangaroo courts, outside of public view, without a reasonable chance to answer the charges or defend yourself? Hmmm...isn't that happening in Iran? North Korea? Do we want to join that club? Have we already? Changing your mind is proof that you have one.

The other really big question is, who gets to decide when we're going to chuck our founding principles out? And what if that person, flawed as we all are and he or she is bound to be, actually has some unrelated, personal motive (money? revenge? personal gain or glory? message from God?) that is the motive for this decision? Or, I know it's hard to believe, but what about inaccurate information? (you mean, he wasn't really a terrorist? oh, well, sorry, ...you're willing to say that to his kid?) Sorry, I can't do it.

In this country that I love, we don't hold people in jail without being charged or tried. We are entitled to know the evidence against us. We have public trials with rules of evidence and a right to defend yourself. That's what we do, no matter who we're talking about or how awful their charges. That's who we are.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Paul Andrews

PJMEMama wrote:

In this country that I love, we don't hold people in jail without being charged or tried. We are entitled to know the evidence against us. We have public trials with rules of evidence and a right to defend yourself. That's what we do, no matter who we're talking about or how awful their charges. That's who we are.

Thanks for reading my rant.

I couldn't agree more - thank you for your contribution.

People just have to get over the fact that standing up for human rights and the ethics and values we hold dear does not ean we're on the side of the terrorists (whatever that means) I means we're on the side of good and decency and the values wehold dear that keep us rocking in the free world.

Peace.

inhiding 1976

Please........get me out of here!!!!!!!!!!!1

dimitrispearljam

inhiding 1976 wrote:

Please........get me out of here!!!!!!!!!!!1

VINNY GOOMBA

PJMEMama wrote:

OK, I read through the whole thread, and I feel like I have to add my perspective. I have been a lawyer for 20 years. Our legal system, flawed as it may be, and our Constitution is what we have to stand between the power of the state and the individual person who is subject to that power. It defines our basic principles of who we are: our country was founded on the idea that the individual human condition includes essential freedoms and basic dignity. When we start to say, well, those principles apply most of the time, but sometimes when (someone) decides its really important, we can throw it out the window, it makes me feel really insecure, and afraid, and pissed off. Really? We're going to compromise our core values, give up the things that make us what we are, because of this attack on us? Do we really think that unless we torture people, we'll be living in the reconstituted Ottoman Empire? And that if we do torture them, we'll avoid that? This why I agree with those who have said that when we torture, when we throw out or core values, the terrorists win, because we have then lost part of who we are.

What countries try detainees in kangaroo courts, outside of public view, without a reasonable chance to answer the charges or defend yourself? Hmmm...isn't that happening in Iran? North Korea? Do we want to join that club? Have we already? Changing your mind is proof that you have one.

The other really big question is, who gets to decide when we're going to chuck our founding principles out? And what if that person, flawed as we all are and he or she is bound to be, actually has some unrelated, personal motive (money? revenge? personal gain or glory? message from God?) that is the motive for this decision? Or, I know it's hard to believe, but what about inaccurate information? (you mean, he wasn't really a terrorist? oh, well, sorry, ...you're willing to say that to his kid?) Sorry, I can't do it.

In this country that I love, we don't hold people in jail without being charged or tried. We are entitled to know the evidence against us. We have public trials with rules of evidence and a right to defend yourself. That's what we do, no matter who we're talking about or how awful their charges. That's who we are.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Great post!

Jeanwah

Why no talk from Ed in Philly regarding the band support of closing Gitmo?

Please tell me that this wasn't just a publicity stunt and they really do want it closed. I was just disappointed that there was no mention at ALL by Eddie during the last few shows. How UNLIKE him.

dimitrispearljam

Jeanwah wrote:

Why no talk from Ed in Philly regarding the band support of closing Gitmo?

Please tell me that this wasn't just a publicity stunt and they really do want it closed. I was just disappointed that there was no mention at ALL by Eddie during the last few shows. How UNLIKE him.

that was strange really

rebornFixer

I am all for closing Gitmo, although I do wonder what will be done with all the inmates. I somehow doubt that Ed and Stone have volunteered to put a few of them up in the guestroom. :P

Paul Andrews

rebornFixer wrote:

I am all for closing Gitmo, although I do wonder what will be done with all the inmates. I somehow doubt that Ed and Stone have volunteered to put a few of them up in the guestroom. :P

Why would they? I think the call is for them to be tried and if convicted, then jailed in supermax or similar, or if found innocent - sent back to their own contries.

dimitrispearljam

Paul Andrews wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

I am all for closing Gitmo, although I do wonder what will be done with all the inmates. I somehow doubt that Ed and Stone have volunteered to put a few of them up in the guestroom. :P

Why would they? I think the call is for them to be tried and if convicted, then jailed in supermax or similar, or if found innocent - sent back to their own contries.

+1.guilty after court in jail,innocent back to their countrys.

GC189041

Gitmo detainees receive the Swine Flu vaccine and in my area there is a limited supply. Those poor terrorists...

PJMEMama

So did Goldman Sachs...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD9BPM93G0

TravisTheSky

PJMEMama wrote:

So did Goldman Sachs...

Interesting! Everything I read/hear/watch about banksters tells me that they are the last people who would willingly be injected. Perhaps they got the special additive-free version available to the German government? [citation needed.]

If Goldman Sachs is happy to be shot up with mercury, formaldehyde, Polysorbate 80, polyethylene glycol, animal proteins, and H1N1... Let them have it!!! [www.fda.gov - Package insert for Sanofi Pasteur's vaccine.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImeSieEZDdU

Fast forward the above video to 5:30. Listen as doctors "LOL" about stupid consumers when they discuss having the media invent demand for the shot by pretending it is scarce.

John Briggs 2008

I applaud all who step up and make there voice heard on this matter but it won't force them to close it and even when ad if they do close it on there own terms, the prisoners will just be spread out across the world in places unknown and no one will be the wiser. That's just a reality unfortunately.

Byrnzie

bosshogg18 wrote:

boooooooooooo. If people want Gitmo closed then that is their opinion and the bands opinion. I for one don't see anything wrong with the way "terrorists" are treated. How do these "terrorists" treat people? Bomb and kill thousands of innocent people. Sounds like we should give them a tempra-pedic bed and a plasma screen in their cells so they are comfortable.

How do you know that the people being held in Gitmo aren't also innocent? You don't.

Byrnzie

JV130312 wrote:

The only thing wrong with torturing terrorists is that it doesn't kill them. F' them... :twisted:

The U.S is the only country in the world to have been condemned for state terrorism by the World Court.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

The U.S is also responsible for the deaths of over 1 million Iraqi civilians.
Your government also stands alone in the world in supporting Israel's illegal expansionism - ethnic cleansing - and state terror to the tune of $4 Billion of military aid every year.

So what are you saying?

Wolf At Bay

Byrnzie wrote:

JV130312 wrote:

The only thing wrong with torturing terrorists is that it doesn't kill them. F' them... :twisted:

The U.S is the only country in the world to have been condemned for state terrorism by the World Court.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

The U.S is also responsible for the deaths of over 1 million Iraqi civilians.
Your government also stands alone in the world in supporting Israel's illegal expansionism - ethnic cleansing - and state terror to the tune of $4 Billion of military aid every year.

So what are you saying?

yes, more people need to understand this.