Nobody is suggesting that we should free, or even be "nice" to terrorists! The individuals being held at Gitmo are suspected, not convicted, of committing crimes. Should they be freed? No!! They should be tried, locked up forever if found guilty, set free if found not guilty.
What is so hard to understand about that?
How is transferring these people to maximum security prisons on U.S. soil "being nice" to them? Are you all aware that there are international laws governing the handling of prisoners of war? Perhaps you see this as "being nice to terrorists," but I see it as keeping our men and women in the armed forces just a little bit safer.
These are basic human rights and legal issues, and they have nothing to do with "liberalism."
Since we have a number of "How would you feel if...?" or "How would Ed feel if...?" comments on this thread, let me pose a different question to you:
How would you feel if, one day, your spouse went batshit crazy, decided s/he was sick of being married to you, and instead of calling a divorce attorney, chose to take a shortcut and go to the police, claiming that you had been bad-touching your children? How would you feel if the police showed up at your job and dragged your supposedly-child-molesting ass out of there in front of all of your co-workers, and hauled you off to jail?
How would you feel if you were left to sit in jail for ten years or so, without a trial, because everyone knows that if you have been accused of molesting your children, it must be true?? I mean, society hates pedophiles, and with good reason. Using the reasoning some of you are exercising, suspected = guilty.
Does that sound far-fetched?? It happened to a cousin of mine, who was able to get cleared of charges and tend to their wrecked life in a reasonable amount of time.
Locking up and torturing people who are guilty of no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of having pissed off the wrong person, is not making anyone safer. It is not helping to place the real criminals behind bars, and in all likelihood it is just creating more terrorists. I think we all agree that terrorism is evil. Why can we not agree on the need to find the actual terrorists and neutralize them, instead of just assuming that anyone who looks suspicious must be guilty?
+1..btw i m not sure i think was seeing in movies..isnt the national anthem of Usa or something like Pledge of Allegiance in the end says : "with Liberty and justice ...for ALL???"
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Nobody is suggesting that we should free, or even be "nice" to terrorists! The individuals being held at Gitmo are suspected, not convicted, of committing crimes. Should they be freed? No!! They should be tried, locked up forever if found guilty, set free if found not guilty.
What is so hard to understand about that?
How is transferring these people to maximum security prisons on U.S. soil "being nice" to them? Are you all aware that there are international laws governing the handling of prisoners of war? Perhaps you see this as "being nice to terrorists," but I see it as keeping our men and women in the armed forces just a little bit safer.
These are basic human rights and legal issues, and they have nothing to do with "liberalism."
Since we have a number of "How would you feel if...?" or "How would Ed feel if...?" comments on this thread, let me pose a different question to you:
How would you feel if, one day, your spouse went batshit crazy, decided s/he was sick of being married to you, and instead of calling a divorce attorney, chose to take a shortcut and go to the police, claiming that you had been bad-touching your children? How would you feel if the police showed up at your job and dragged your supposedly-child-molesting ass out of there in front of all of your co-workers, and hauled you off to jail?
How would you feel if you were left to sit in jail for ten years or so, without a trial, because everyone knows that if you have been accused of molesting your children, it must be true?? I mean, society hates pedophiles, and with good reason. Using the reasoning some of you are exercising, suspected = guilty.
Does that sound far-fetched?? It happened to a cousin of mine, who was able to get cleared of charges and tend to their wrecked life in a reasonable amount of time.
Locking up and torturing people who are guilty of no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or of having pissed off the wrong person, is not making anyone safer. It is not helping to place the real criminals behind bars, and in all likelihood it is just creating more terrorists. I think we all agree that terrorism is evil. Why can we not agree on the need to find the actual terrorists and neutralize them, instead of just assuming that anyone who looks suspicious must be guilty?
Great post, the point I have been trying to make. Just because Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al say someone is guilty is not enough proof for me. I wouldn't trust the skid marks on their underwear unless you had them checked my a handwriting expert. As countries of laws, our constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty and that everyone is entitled to a fair trial. The reason they are being housed at Cuba is to deny then their human rights. I have no problem whatsoever with those fount GUILTY of spending the rest of their lives in supermax prisons like gangbangers and other criminals.
I'm sorry guys, but the last administration and those who blindly supported them did more harm to your country than the terrorists. There was so much goodwill for the USA around the world after 911, but it was squandered by these chicken-hawks. Iraq just made it worse and probably cost you the chance to capture those responsible for 911. Fox News, which is beamed around the world continues this damage. Our Howard administration at he time also tarnished our international reputation and those who know of the 'children overboard' scandal will always remember this dark passage in our history with shame.
Let's face it, most of these people are criminals - murderers and thugs - they deserve to be taken out of society and never returned. I'd have no problem with Australia housing this prison. Given what I've seen on "America's Harshest Prisons" I am sure there is a place where they can be housed. If Bush is so keen on the 'war on terror' maybe Texas can house them.
The other point of this thread is torture. It is roundly accepted - by experts - that the quality of information gained by torture is of vastly lower quality than other methods. The fact the experts also claim torture is used as a rallying point against us and just makes things worse when our boys are captured, and also puts us on questionable moral gounds is enough for me to say we should not torture.
Nowhere in any or my arguments do I support terrorism, nor do I give them any justification for their actions. But terrorists are not jsut Muslim extremists. Throughout history, many groups have resorted to terrorist tactics like the IRA, Tim McVeigh, The Unabomber, Falon Gung, Viet Kong and many more. When it suited America to back terrorists like Bin Laden against the Russians, the practice was deemed acceptabe and these people called 'freedom fighters'. Does anyone remember the Iran-Contra arms scandal - shit Olie North now has his own show on Fox!
As I previously maintained, our Governments have a lot to answer for - usually in the name of greed and powerlust - unfortunately it is the people, the mums and dads and sons and daughters who just want to live in peace who pay the price. Many of these 'terrorists' are pawns in a game that they do not understand - they were indoctrinated into a mind set before they had any idea of an alternate point of view. That does not excuse them at all, but we should not allow ourselves to be pawns in the same game - we're all better than that. Every time we sink to their level, we lose a piece of what we hold dear.
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay.
And in all the madness. Thought becomes numb and naive.
So much to talk about there's. Nothing for to say.
It's the same everyday and the wave won't break
Tell you to pray, while the devil's on their shoulder
Laying claim to the take our soldiers save
Does not equate, and the truth's already out there
putting aside the "rightness" or "wrongness" of closing Gitmo, i just want to say that i'm always impressed and inspired that PJ is willing to speak out for the causes the band members believe in. they never seem to worry about who will agree or disagree, whether they might lose fans because of an opinion, or whether they might come under fire in the press. at least they use their "fame" as a platform to try to get things done that they feel strongly about. from what i've read about the founding of America and the intent of our founding fathers and mothers, this is pretty much what they wanted from all of us. yet most of us would never do this, especially if we were in the public eye. once again ... bravo Pearl Jam.
PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.
thank you. the problem with Ed is that he doesn't have one conservative bone in his body. and since he is the "voice" of the band, his one-sided views reflect on the others and make them look the same way. that may not always be the case. out of 5 different people, views are going to be different. I wonder that if Jeff or Matt ever had the floor and went on a rant, just how much would it differ with the usual we get from Ed. one-sided politics are useless. as I've always said: never be too conservative, never be too liberal. by all means, pick a side. but use common sense, what happens physically when you lean too far to the left or to the right? you're gonna fall over.
PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.
umm ... are you familiar with this band? nothing is any different since day 1. ed has always made "speeches" or done some antics onstage, in one form or another. it's part of ed ... it's part of pearl jam. i'm not trying to fuck with you. i just don't know why you're not used to it by now. also, whether or not you agree with what ed is saying or doing, how do you feel about the fact that he's actually willing to openly say or do that stuff? i admire his guts, even when i don't agree with him.
Kind of off-topic, kind of on-topic...Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine said in a statement:
"Guantanamo is known around the world as one of the places where human beings have been tortured -- from waterboarding to stripping, hooding and forcing detainees into humiliating sexual acts -- playing music for 72 hours in a row at volumes just below that to shatter the eardrums," said Morello.
"Guantanamo may be Dick Cheney's idea of America, but it's not mine. The fact that music I helped create was used in crimes against humanity sickens me," he added.
Ed...buddy...pal...stay true to your word and play Boise again.
Seattle, 12.7.93
Salt Lake, 6.21.98
Mountain View, 10.30.99
Mountain View, 10.31.99
Boise, 11.3.00
Portland, 9.26.09
PJ has the right to support what ever cause they choose, however this is a huge disappointment to me. There are so many other issues the band could focus on, it's sad to see their hatred of Bush take them over. I too was so sick of the crazy speeches during concerts, however I made the best of it and turned those 5 minute rants into bathroom breaks, because I sure as hell wasn't going to miss a song. Yes, I know a lot of their songs are political, but that's what I paid for, not Ed's speeches using soldiers coffins as his soapbox. I wish they could see it from a fans point of view and see what they are doing to their fans...one minute you're singing along, happy as can be, to be at a PJ show, sharing smiles and cheers with your fellow fans. Next thing you know Ed is foaming at the mouth and the unity the fans have goes to shit as the person next to you has a different opinion than you, and you spend the rest of the night giving shit looks to the ahole that keeps elbowing you while jumping up and down instead of the high fives you were giving 10 minutes before. I wish PJ would realize fame doesn't equal wisdom. Oh well, to each their own.
umm ... are you familiar with this band? nothing is any different since day 1. ed has always made "speeches" or done some antics onstage, in one form or another. it's part of ed ... it's part of pearl jam. i'm not trying to fuck with you. i just don't know why you're not used to it by now. also, whether or not you agree with what ed is saying or doing, how do you feel about the fact that he's actually willing to openly say or do that stuff? i admire his guts, even when i don't agree with him.
dude, come on. you can get on stage at a rock concert and say anything. guts shmuts. it's not like he's addressing congress. he's up there talking to a bunch of drunk people who came out to hear some rock music and have a good, mindless time. for God's sake, the guy can say nothing but the word "fuck" and people cheer. what's wrong with that picture? I don't care who it is, be it a liberal or conservative entertainer, a concert is NOT the ideal place to get into your politics. like someone said above, it divides the people whose original intent was to get together and enjoy some music, for the sake of MUSIC. if Ed really wants to do something, he should put down his guitar and get into real politics where his views will have true assessment by the experts. maybe that way someone would finally get through to him how wrong he is on certain issues.
dude, come on. you can get on stage at a rock concert and say anything. guts shmuts. it's not like he's addressing congress. he's up there talking to a bunch of drunk people who came out to hear some rock music and have a good, mindless time. for God's sake, the guy can say nothing but the word "fuck" and people cheer. what's wrong with that picture? I don't care who it is, be it a liberal or conservative entertainer, a concert is NOT the ideal place to get into your politics. like someone said above, it divides the people whose original intent was to get together and enjoy some music, for the sake of MUSIC. if Ed really wants to do something, he should put down his guitar and get into real politics where his views will have true assessment by the experts. maybe that way someone would finally get through to him how wrong he is on certain issues.
Yes you can gte up on stage and say 'anything' but pearl jam have always been about issues that are close to them, be it the environment, peace, personal libery, the strength and fragility of the human spirit, anti-corruption etc. i don't agree with everything Ed says, but I find myself agreeing with most of it. But the point is not to agree, it is to then look at an issue with an open mind and make an informed decision, not one that the powers that be wold have you blindly follow. The fact Ed and Johnny Ramone were great mates desipte their political differences speaks volumes of the character of both of these men.
The best arguments on this thread are the ones that people have researched and come to an opinion based upon reasoned decision making - not knee jerk reactions. I understand lust for revenge - if my children were ever harmed maliciously, I'd want to kill the person involved - and would probably not rest until I succeeded - but that is why that decision should not be in my hands.
Kind of off-topic, kind of on-topic...Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine said in a statement:
"Guantanamo is known around the world as one of the places where human beings have been tortured -- from waterboarding to stripping, hooding and forcing detainees into humiliating sexual acts -- playing music for 72 hours in a row at volumes just below that to shatter the eardrums," said Morello.
"Guantanamo may be Dick Cheney's idea of America, but it's not mine. The fact that music I helped create was used in crimes against humanity sickens me," he added.
Yeah, at least the terrorists weren't playing music when they were cutting the heads off those innocent people on television.
PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICS AT HOME WHEN YOU COME TO PHILLY EDDIE. I BOUGHT TICKETS FOR A ROCK CONCERT NOT A POLITICAL RALLY !!
:roll:
What the fuck would you prefer him talk about in between songs? I'm personally happy that he'd take time to speak about shit that actually matters.
the spectrum...the phillies...dr j's abnormally large hands....those kinds of things. :arrow:
boooooooooooo. If people want Gitmo closed then that is their opinion and the bands opinion. I for one don't see anything wrong with the way "terrorists" are treated. How do these "terrorists" treat people? Bomb and kill thousands of innocent people. Sounds like we should give them a tempra-pedic bed and a plasma screen in their cells so they are comfortable.
People need fair representation...and gitmo is anthing but.....so not close it but get the trails going. Never want to give any government power to incarcerate indefinitely. Just can'r though say simply close it.
I don't understand why this is posted here on "The Porch". Shouldn't it be posted in the "Moving Train" forum?
because the mods thought it was necessary to post the "surprising" news that Pearl Jam want Gitmo closed in this forum as well as on the main page. they had to know it was going to turn into this.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
You mean our Dear Leader Obama has not kept one of his campaign promises ?!
Oh wait. He didn't start to bring the troops home, either. Or give Congress (and we the public) five days to read new bills before they are voted on. Or refuse to raise taxes on citizens making under $125,000 per year.
They were all lies! He said whatever he needed to get elected, and then continued the policies of George Bush. Democrats and Republicans are the same. They are politicians, which mean they work for the banks and the oil companies and the corporations.
Ok, after reading a majority of the posts here, I'll weigh in.
1) I am not NAIVE. There are no EASY answers about what to do with some of the REALLY BAD people that are there.
2) However, I do no believe any human being should be detained without trail, without rights, indefinately. We have to find a better way of dealing with people who carry out acts of violence against America.
3) I agree with the band. Close this place down NOW.
Huffington Post
Matthew Alexander
Led the interrogations that found Zarqawi
Posted: October 23, 2009
Music Matters
What's Your Reaction?
My high school friends and I grew up on R.E.M.'s early albums - Murmur, Reckoning, Fables of the Reconstruction, and Life's Rich Pageant. And who can forget Pearl Jam's debut album Ten and Eddie Vedder's ominous vocals on hits like Jeremy and Alive? I have one particular memory, the first time I heard their follow-up hit Daughter on a raucous Friday night at the Officer's Club during pilot training. The acoustic intro is running through my head even now. And in 2006, I saw Michelle Branch perform live in concert after my return from Iraq. Her soulful performance was a welcome relief from the streets of war.
Music is perhaps the freest expression of art in an open society. In my travels to more than fifty countries, a sense of national pride has always emerged when I've witnessed the popularity of American culture abroad in the form of music. R.E.M. and Pearl Jam are reminders of the strength of America's right to free speech.
Music has long played a role in the culture of the American military. Who hasn't witnessed the depiction of U.S troops in Vietnam jamming to The Doors? When I was flying Special Operations helicopters our gunners blared AC/DC over the intercom system. Flying at night listening to the tolling bells intro to Hell's Bells would send shivers down our spines. In Iraq where I served as an interrogator, hip-hop and heavy metal could be heard throughout our compound. Hell, we had one entire server devoted to music that we could enjoy while we typed our intelligence reports. There's some type of unexplainable link between soldiers and music. In the midst of the violence and uncertainty of war, music brings us comfort. Music, is by nature, intended to bring pleasure.
That is why I'm appalled about the use of music as an instrument of torture and abuse inside American military prisons such as Guantanamo Bay. Sadistic people (I'm not sure how else to explain this behavior) blared loud music non-stop at detainees as a method of punishment and retribution. Some would argue that it's an enabler for interrogation, but I can tell you from experience that such tactics have just the opposite effect. Torture and abuse, in any form, only reaffirm in a prisoner's mind why they picked up arms in the first place.
This extreme tactic of torture and abuse is another of the antiquated methods of detainee operations and interrogations that were authorized and encouraged by the previous administration and that military leaders failed in their duty to prevent. The inhumane treatment of detainees in any form is a direct violation of U.S. law, military regulations, and the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (Article 97 prohibits Cruelty and Maltreatment in addition to Article 133 Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and a Gentlemen). This type of behavior is completely contradictory to our military tradition of humane treatment of prisoners of war dating back to the American Revolution.
I stand together with artists (such as R.E.M., Pearl Jam, and Michelle Branch) who have objected to the use of the music as an instrument of torture and abuse. Music should be a sacred pleasure, not a manipulated art form used to imitate archaic medieval brutality. I'm proud of those artists who have taken a stand and support them and the call for the closing of the prison at Guantanamo Bay, which continues to be a symbol of lost American moral bearing -- place where unlawful detention and torture became everyday norms, carried out by members of the military whose duty it is to protect against such tyranny.
To join the effort to close Guantanamo Bay or learn more about the artists protesting the use of their music as an instrument of torture, visit the New Security Action blog at http://www.newsecurityaction.org/.
I'll tell ya, Julius got his degree at my commencement at UMass...dude walked right by me on his way up to the stage at the opening procession...never seen hands so friggin' huge.
Ok, after reading a majority of the posts here, I'll weigh in.
1) I am not NAIVE. There are no EASY answers about what to do with some of the REALLY BAD people that are there.
2) However, I do no believe any human being should be detained without trail, without rights, indefinately. We have to find a better way of dealing with people who carry out acts of violence against America.
3) I agree with the band. Close this place down NOW.
PEACE
I agree with number 2 but 3...no one has answered yet. Where are they going to put them if they close Gitmo down???
Shouldn't all the activists be working to stop inhumane acts on both sides. You know what's really terrible, we can all sit here in our cushioned little world's and debate about this but there are people who live in countries that live in fear everyday.
Ok, after reading a majority of the posts here, I'll weigh in.
1) I am not NAIVE. There are no EASY answers about what to do with some of the REALLY BAD people that are there.
2) However, I do no believe any human being should be detained without trail, without rights, indefinately. We have to find a better way of dealing with people who carry out acts of violence against America.
3) I agree with the band. Close this place down NOW.
PEACE
I agree with number 2 but 3...no one has answered yet. Where are they going to put them if they close Gitmo down???
Shouldn't all the activists be working to stop inhumane acts on both sides. You know what's really terrible, we can all sit here in our cushioned little world's and debate about this but there are people who live in countries that live in fear everyday.
An answer to number 3:
A. They are tried under whatever international law or juristiction is approipriate.
If the Nuremburg trials were able to try and convict Nazi war criminals, I'm sure US or UN courts could do the same.
B. Those found innocent are released back to their homelands.
Australia has at least two who have returned home and not caused a problem. UK has a handful and many other countries have citizens who have been sent home without problem.
C. Those found guilty are jailed - I'm sure USA has a jail with approriate security levels.
As previously stated, Supermax can easily house these people. I disagree with the death penalty and i'm sure the same 23 hour in cell, 1 hour exercise regime that hardcore criminals face is appropriate - for life. I also have no issue with the guilty having no visitation rights.
Your next point is the most important. Activists should be working to stop inhumane acts everywhere - not just where our business interests lie. I think Jackson Browne put it pretty well in "Lives In The Balance". But we cannot just be critical of the West. The Howard Government in Australia was quite happy to turn a blind eye to human rights violations in China so that we could reap the economic rewrds that came with trade. What right do we then have to criticise other countries who don't have the money to buy our silence?
Terrorism and extemism will flourish until we all ask "WHY?" and truly seek out the answers to these questions - even when we don't like the answers. The IRA stopped terrorising London when their fair concerns were taken seriously and their unjust methods exposed as a roadblock to their goals. The peace appears to be holding. Now this does not mean that Bin Laden has fair concerns - I think he is a nutcase and unfortunately we helped create him when he was of benefit to us. But I am sure that organisations like Hamas, Hezbolah and other localised organisations do have agendas that can be used to negotiate peace and isolate the extremists in their midst. A real and just solution to Palestine would make a massive difference to world security.
Lives In The Balance - Jackson Browne (1986)
Ive been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that youve seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war
And theres a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs
On the radio talk shows and the t.v.
You hear one thing again and again
How the u.s.a. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends--
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally cant take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
Theres a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we cant even say the names
They sell us the president the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But theyre never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICS AT HOME WHEN YOU COME TO PHILLY EDDIE. I BOUGHT TICKETS FOR A ROCK CONCERT NOT A POLITICAL RALLY !!
:roll:
What the fuck would you prefer him talk about in between songs? I'm personally happy that he'd take time to speak about shit that actually matters.
the amount of bull shit ed says during a concert could be used for more songs and maybe they would actually play 3+ hours shows instead of barely hitting the 2 hour and 30 minute mark or the rare 2 hours and 40 minutes show. how many people do you think listen to what some "rock star" has to say bout his own views. i wonder if ed has said anything bout how bad of a job the dems are doing in washington and how they still havent gotten our troops outta iraq or do they get a pass cause the dems are in power :roll:. i am neither a democrat or a republican.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
i wonder if ed has said anything bout how bad of a job the dems are doing in washington and how they still havent gotten our troops outta iraq or do they get a pass cause the dems are in power :roll:. i am neither a democrat or a republican.
I think Obama & the Dems still have some time to start delivering on these promises - but not forever. As an outsider watching the healthcare debate, I can only shake my head in disbelief. I see Jon Stewart has begun to take shots at the Dems and Obama, if they don't deliver, it will not be long before Ed does too - or should.
I think Obama has the best intentions, but if he can't get his own party with a super majority to look beyond their own self interest and stop selling their souls to the lobbyists, there is no hope for him. To look at the laughing stock Peter Garrett has become since joining the Australian Labor Party and selling out all the ideals Midnight Oil stood for is very sad.
For the record - I am an independent voter too. "You gotta stand for something or you're gonna fall for anything" JCM.
Ok, after reading a majority of the posts here, I'll weigh in.
1) I am not NAIVE. There are no EASY answers about what to do with some of the REALLY BAD people that are there.
2) However, I do no believe any human being should be detained without trail, without rights, indefinately. We have to find a better way of dealing with people who carry out acts of violence against America.
3) I agree with the band. Close this place down NOW.
PEACE
well said
PEACE
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Comments
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Great post, the point I have been trying to make. Just because Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al say someone is guilty is not enough proof for me. I wouldn't trust the skid marks on their underwear unless you had them checked my a handwriting expert. As countries of laws, our constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty and that everyone is entitled to a fair trial. The reason they are being housed at Cuba is to deny then their human rights. I have no problem whatsoever with those fount GUILTY of spending the rest of their lives in supermax prisons like gangbangers and other criminals.
I'm sorry guys, but the last administration and those who blindly supported them did more harm to your country than the terrorists. There was so much goodwill for the USA around the world after 911, but it was squandered by these chicken-hawks. Iraq just made it worse and probably cost you the chance to capture those responsible for 911. Fox News, which is beamed around the world continues this damage. Our Howard administration at he time also tarnished our international reputation and those who know of the 'children overboard' scandal will always remember this dark passage in our history with shame.
Let's face it, most of these people are criminals - murderers and thugs - they deserve to be taken out of society and never returned. I'd have no problem with Australia housing this prison. Given what I've seen on "America's Harshest Prisons" I am sure there is a place where they can be housed. If Bush is so keen on the 'war on terror' maybe Texas can house them.
The other point of this thread is torture. It is roundly accepted - by experts - that the quality of information gained by torture is of vastly lower quality than other methods. The fact the experts also claim torture is used as a rallying point against us and just makes things worse when our boys are captured, and also puts us on questionable moral gounds is enough for me to say we should not torture.
Nowhere in any or my arguments do I support terrorism, nor do I give them any justification for their actions. But terrorists are not jsut Muslim extremists. Throughout history, many groups have resorted to terrorist tactics like the IRA, Tim McVeigh, The Unabomber, Falon Gung, Viet Kong and many more. When it suited America to back terrorists like Bin Laden against the Russians, the practice was deemed acceptabe and these people called 'freedom fighters'. Does anyone remember the Iran-Contra arms scandal - shit Olie North now has his own show on Fox!
As I previously maintained, our Governments have a lot to answer for - usually in the name of greed and powerlust - unfortunately it is the people, the mums and dads and sons and daughters who just want to live in peace who pay the price. Many of these 'terrorists' are pawns in a game that they do not understand - they were indoctrinated into a mind set before they had any idea of an alternate point of view. That does not excuse them at all, but we should not allow ourselves to be pawns in the same game - we're all better than that. Every time we sink to their level, we lose a piece of what we hold dear.
Medals on a wooden mantle. Next to a handsome face.
That the president took for granted.
Writing checks that others pay.
And in all the madness. Thought becomes numb and naive.
So much to talk about there's. Nothing for to say.
It's the same everyday and the wave won't break
Tell you to pray, while the devil's on their shoulder
Laying claim to the take our soldiers save
Does not equate, and the truth's already out there
thank you. the problem with Ed is that he doesn't have one conservative bone in his body. and since he is the "voice" of the band, his one-sided views reflect on the others and make them look the same way. that may not always be the case. out of 5 different people, views are going to be different. I wonder that if Jeff or Matt ever had the floor and went on a rant, just how much would it differ with the usual we get from Ed. one-sided politics are useless. as I've always said: never be too conservative, never be too liberal. by all means, pick a side. but use common sense, what happens physically when you lean too far to the left or to the right? you're gonna fall over.
umm ... are you familiar with this band? nothing is any different since day 1. ed has always made "speeches" or done some antics onstage, in one form or another. it's part of ed ... it's part of pearl jam. i'm not trying to fuck with you. i just don't know why you're not used to it by now. also, whether or not you agree with what ed is saying or doing, how do you feel about the fact that he's actually willing to openly say or do that stuff? i admire his guts, even when i don't agree with him.
"Guantanamo is known around the world as one of the places where human beings have been tortured -- from waterboarding to stripping, hooding and forcing detainees into humiliating sexual acts -- playing music for 72 hours in a row at volumes just below that to shatter the eardrums," said Morello.
"Guantanamo may be Dick Cheney's idea of America, but it's not mine. The fact that music I helped create was used in crimes against humanity sickens me," he added.
Seattle, 12.7.93
Salt Lake, 6.21.98
Mountain View, 10.30.99
Mountain View, 10.31.99
Boise, 11.3.00
Portland, 9.26.09
dude, come on. you can get on stage at a rock concert and say anything. guts shmuts. it's not like he's addressing congress. he's up there talking to a bunch of drunk people who came out to hear some rock music and have a good, mindless time. for God's sake, the guy can say nothing but the word "fuck" and people cheer. what's wrong with that picture? I don't care who it is, be it a liberal or conservative entertainer, a concert is NOT the ideal place to get into your politics. like someone said above, it divides the people whose original intent was to get together and enjoy some music, for the sake of MUSIC. if Ed really wants to do something, he should put down his guitar and get into real politics where his views will have true assessment by the experts. maybe that way someone would finally get through to him how wrong he is on certain issues.
Yes you can gte up on stage and say 'anything' but pearl jam have always been about issues that are close to them, be it the environment, peace, personal libery, the strength and fragility of the human spirit, anti-corruption etc. i don't agree with everything Ed says, but I find myself agreeing with most of it. But the point is not to agree, it is to then look at an issue with an open mind and make an informed decision, not one that the powers that be wold have you blindly follow. The fact Ed and Johnny Ramone were great mates desipte their political differences speaks volumes of the character of both of these men.
The best arguments on this thread are the ones that people have researched and come to an opinion based upon reasoned decision making - not knee jerk reactions. I understand lust for revenge - if my children were ever harmed maliciously, I'd want to kill the person involved - and would probably not rest until I succeeded - but that is why that decision should not be in my hands.
You actually bought tickets to a PJ concert which often includes political commentary...
but you already knew that.
:roll:
What the fuck would you prefer him talk about in between songs? I'm personally happy that he'd take time to speak about shit that actually matters.
PHILADELPHIA....ARE YOU READY TO ROCK MOTHER FUCKERSRRRRRRSSSSS!!!!
want to be enlightened"
http://seanbriceart.com/
the spectrum...the phillies...dr j's abnormally large hands....those kinds of things. :arrow:
People need fair representation...and gitmo is anthing but.....so not close it but get the trails going. Never want to give any government power to incarcerate indefinitely. Just can'r though say simply close it.
Ashbury Park 9/18/21
LA 5/06/21, 5/07/21
Phoenix 05/09/22
NYC 9/11/22
Denver 9/22/22
because the mods thought it was necessary to post the "surprising" news that Pearl Jam want Gitmo closed in this forum as well as on the main page. they had to know it was going to turn into this.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Oh wait. He didn't start to bring the troops home, either. Or give Congress (and we the public) five days to read new bills before they are voted on. Or refuse to raise taxes on citizens making under $125,000 per year.
They were all lies! He said whatever he needed to get elected, and then continued the policies of George Bush. Democrats and Republicans are the same. They are politicians, which mean they work for the banks and the oil companies and the corporations.
1) I am not NAIVE. There are no EASY answers about what to do with some of the REALLY BAD people that are there.
2) However, I do no believe any human being should be detained without trail, without rights, indefinately. We have to find a better way of dealing with people who carry out acts of violence against America.
3) I agree with the band. Close this place down NOW.
PEACE
Matthew Alexander
Led the interrogations that found Zarqawi
Posted: October 23, 2009
Music Matters
What's Your Reaction?
My high school friends and I grew up on R.E.M.'s early albums - Murmur, Reckoning, Fables of the Reconstruction, and Life's Rich Pageant. And who can forget Pearl Jam's debut album Ten and Eddie Vedder's ominous vocals on hits like Jeremy and Alive? I have one particular memory, the first time I heard their follow-up hit Daughter on a raucous Friday night at the Officer's Club during pilot training. The acoustic intro is running through my head even now. And in 2006, I saw Michelle Branch perform live in concert after my return from Iraq. Her soulful performance was a welcome relief from the streets of war.
Music is perhaps the freest expression of art in an open society. In my travels to more than fifty countries, a sense of national pride has always emerged when I've witnessed the popularity of American culture abroad in the form of music. R.E.M. and Pearl Jam are reminders of the strength of America's right to free speech.
Music has long played a role in the culture of the American military. Who hasn't witnessed the depiction of U.S troops in Vietnam jamming to The Doors? When I was flying Special Operations helicopters our gunners blared AC/DC over the intercom system. Flying at night listening to the tolling bells intro to Hell's Bells would send shivers down our spines. In Iraq where I served as an interrogator, hip-hop and heavy metal could be heard throughout our compound. Hell, we had one entire server devoted to music that we could enjoy while we typed our intelligence reports. There's some type of unexplainable link between soldiers and music. In the midst of the violence and uncertainty of war, music brings us comfort. Music, is by nature, intended to bring pleasure.
That is why I'm appalled about the use of music as an instrument of torture and abuse inside American military prisons such as Guantanamo Bay. Sadistic people (I'm not sure how else to explain this behavior) blared loud music non-stop at detainees as a method of punishment and retribution. Some would argue that it's an enabler for interrogation, but I can tell you from experience that such tactics have just the opposite effect. Torture and abuse, in any form, only reaffirm in a prisoner's mind why they picked up arms in the first place.
This extreme tactic of torture and abuse is another of the antiquated methods of detainee operations and interrogations that were authorized and encouraged by the previous administration and that military leaders failed in their duty to prevent. The inhumane treatment of detainees in any form is a direct violation of U.S. law, military regulations, and the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (Article 97 prohibits Cruelty and Maltreatment in addition to Article 133 Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and a Gentlemen). This type of behavior is completely contradictory to our military tradition of humane treatment of prisoners of war dating back to the American Revolution.
I stand together with artists (such as R.E.M., Pearl Jam, and Michelle Branch) who have objected to the use of the music as an instrument of torture and abuse. Music should be a sacred pleasure, not a manipulated art form used to imitate archaic medieval brutality. I'm proud of those artists who have taken a stand and support them and the call for the closing of the prison at Guantanamo Bay, which continues to be a symbol of lost American moral bearing -- place where unlawful detention and torture became everyday norms, carried out by members of the military whose duty it is to protect against such tyranny.
To join the effort to close Guantanamo Bay or learn more about the artists protesting the use of their music as an instrument of torture, visit the New Security Action blog at http://www.newsecurityaction.org/.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-a ... 31606.html
Shouldn't all the activists be working to stop inhumane acts on both sides. You know what's really terrible, we can all sit here in our cushioned little world's and debate about this but there are people who live in countries that live in fear everyday.
want to be enlightened"
An answer to number 3:
A. They are tried under whatever international law or juristiction is approipriate.
If the Nuremburg trials were able to try and convict Nazi war criminals, I'm sure US or UN courts could do the same.
B. Those found innocent are released back to their homelands.
Australia has at least two who have returned home and not caused a problem. UK has a handful and many other countries have citizens who have been sent home without problem.
C. Those found guilty are jailed - I'm sure USA has a jail with approriate security levels.
As previously stated, Supermax can easily house these people. I disagree with the death penalty and i'm sure the same 23 hour in cell, 1 hour exercise regime that hardcore criminals face is appropriate - for life. I also have no issue with the guilty having no visitation rights.
Your next point is the most important. Activists should be working to stop inhumane acts everywhere - not just where our business interests lie. I think Jackson Browne put it pretty well in "Lives In The Balance". But we cannot just be critical of the West. The Howard Government in Australia was quite happy to turn a blind eye to human rights violations in China so that we could reap the economic rewrds that came with trade. What right do we then have to criticise other countries who don't have the money to buy our silence?
Terrorism and extemism will flourish until we all ask "WHY?" and truly seek out the answers to these questions - even when we don't like the answers. The IRA stopped terrorising London when their fair concerns were taken seriously and their unjust methods exposed as a roadblock to their goals. The peace appears to be holding. Now this does not mean that Bin Laden has fair concerns - I think he is a nutcase and unfortunately we helped create him when he was of benefit to us. But I am sure that organisations like Hamas, Hezbolah and other localised organisations do have agendas that can be used to negotiate peace and isolate the extremists in their midst. A real and just solution to Palestine would make a massive difference to world security.
Lives In The Balance - Jackson Browne (1986)
Ive been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that youve seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war
And theres a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs
On the radio talk shows and the t.v.
You hear one thing again and again
How the u.s.a. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends--
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally cant take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
Theres a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we cant even say the names
They sell us the president the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But theyre never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
I think Obama & the Dems still have some time to start delivering on these promises - but not forever. As an outsider watching the healthcare debate, I can only shake my head in disbelief. I see Jon Stewart has begun to take shots at the Dems and Obama, if they don't deliver, it will not be long before Ed does too - or should.
I think Obama has the best intentions, but if he can't get his own party with a super majority to look beyond their own self interest and stop selling their souls to the lobbyists, there is no hope for him. To look at the laughing stock Peter Garrett has become since joining the Australian Labor Party and selling out all the ideals Midnight Oil stood for is very sad.
For the record - I am an independent voter too. "You gotta stand for something or you're gonna fall for anything" JCM.
PEACE
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”