Ed on religion

jwillmo wrote:

To tell you the truth, I don't even know anymore what you mean by "believer"
and "non-believer". You keep shifting from arguing against the existence of any god at all to Fundamentalist Christianity (all the shit about stem cells and evolution). I really can't keep up. I definitely believe in God, but I also believe in evolution, that gays should be left the fuck alone, etc. I've just been having a go at you because you seem to be more keen on the personal attacks than the other side. That's what I can't stand, and then when I defend the people you disagree with, you just assume I must believe exactly as they do.

Full disclosure: I really don't care near as much about all this as I let on. It's actually just really fucking boring at work today.

No shit, you know you've achieved "enlightment" when you can lump an entire group of people together like he's doing. :rolleyes:

I'm with you on this....he's basically just being a douche.

jwillmo wrote:

To tell you the truth, I don't even know anymore what you mean by "believer"
and "non-believer". You keep shifting from arguing against the existence of any god at all to Fundamentalist Christianity (all the shit about stem cells and evolution). I really can't keep up. I definitely believe in God, but I also believe in evolution, that gays should be left the fuck alone, etc. I've just been having a go at you because you seem to be more keen on the personal attacks than the other side. That's what I can't stand, and then when I defend the people you disagree with, you just assume I must believe exactly as they do.

Full disclosure: I really don't care near as much about all this as I let on. It's actually just really fucking boring at work today.

You are a believer then. And I admire you for being one of the cool ones with regards to some of the issues you mentioned.

I'm not attacking individual people but their common beliefs. I'm sure most of the Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. on here are fantastic people but I don't respect their religious beliefs because they affect my world in a negative way.

I'm sorry that upsets you. If that makes me a douche, then I disagree with your definition of a douche.

It's important to stress that I hate the "beliefs" not the "believer." It's like "don't hate the playa, hate the game."

Eddie Vedder is preaching to the choir (not always a bad thing I suppose). I've said this a couple of times in other threads but I got blasted for it. I think the guy (and all these other outspoken musicians or actors or whoever) need to get out of their comfort zones and actually speak to some people who aren't lapping their every word or sucking their dick.

Do I agree with Vedders politics? Mostly. I'm not the most politically savy person in the world, but I know enough to have an opinion, one that I've formed without Vedders help. But shouting out slogans and rants on Bush to a room that's pretty much full of Bush haters isn't really getting you anywhere. Almost reminds me of the "Viet-Fucking-NAM!" guy from Forrest Gump

EvilRabbit wrote:

Of course not. But I believe the world would be a better place if we put religion behind us. Sane people no longer believe in alchemy and astrology and I feel religion should be buried in the grave right next to them.

Name one good thing brought about by religion? If you say charity or morality, for example, I will argue those things can exist without religion. Atheists can be good people. Any wrong-doing performed by an atheist is not done out of his/her atheism. You can't say the same about religion. Religion makes otherwise good people do atrocious things.

you are totally right about that, and i would never argue against the fact that atheists can be good people.


"Name one good thing brought about by religion?"
HOPE. i already posted that earlier: some people just need to have some believe they can hang on to when it comes to afterlife. if you have a totally shitty life, you at least can hope for a "better future" once you're dead. they want to believe that their struggle and pain wasn't totally worthless. they want to believe that they will see their loved ones in "heaven" etc.
i know this sounds probably totally naive to you, and it may is naive, but some just need that hope to be able to make it through their life. i don't think that one can argue against that, even if it's not your way of thinking.

EvilRabbit wrote:

Name one good thing brought about by religion

Scott Stapp and Creed.

ba-dum-dum-chhhhh.

EvilRabbit wrote:

Yes. I've also read "The Dawkins Delusion" so I am well-versed in both sides of the argument.

Have you?

Can I send some missionaries over?

I kid, I kid

nathanastin wrote:

Can I send some missionaries over?

I kid, I kid

Sure, I'll convert them to atheists. Bring them over to the dark side.

I kid too.

Have you guys noticed we can have this discussion without antagonism? A little levity goes a long way. People get too defensive and angry but discussing religion is a good thing. We shouldn't shy away from it.

EvilRabbit wrote:

You are a believer then. And I admire you for being one of the cool ones with regards to some of the issues you mentioned.

I'm not attacking individual people but their common beliefs. I'm sure most of the Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. on here are fantastic people but I don't respect their religious beliefs because they affect my world in a negative way.

I'm sorry that upsets you. If that makes me a douche, then I disagree with your definition of a douche.

It's important to stress that I hate the "beliefs" not the "believer." It's like "don't hate the playa, hate the game."

You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick.

Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so.

jwillmo wrote:

You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick.

Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so.

agreed
America is on the brink of civil war, in my opinion. If the economy doesn't completely fall apart first.

jwillmo wrote:

You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick.

Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so.

I must admit I have said a few things that probably make me seem like a dick. Perhaps it's because I'm British too. If you guys knew me in real life though, even those of you who seem to loathe my viewpoint, you might actually think I was pretty cool. Or a douche. One of the two.

Sorry I sounded condescending but some of the things you said do make you seem to have a cool perspective which I can appreciate.

Atheists can come across as angry or dicks simply because we've sat back and watched the downside of religion get out of control in recent years. Look, in some states 80% of Christians voted for Bush in 2004 purely because of faith. A lot of people would still be alive, or at least happier, if that hadn't happened. Forgive me, I don't want this to get political as that will spawn another 20 pages even more off-topic...