Another abortion thread

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  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    decides2dream wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    i am going to get my wife pregnant today and then, after 1 month, we are going to have an abortion.............that way i will be able to understand the "pro abortion" mindset.

    shit........maybe abortion is not all that bad.



    do please share, b/c i too would love to understand the 'pro-abortion' mindset as i personally have never met anyone who is pro-abortion.


    pro-choice is just that......choice.
    i respect the choice to have a child just as much as i respect the choice to not have one. and in an ideal world, BC would be used 100% of the time when one does not desire a pregnancy, would be 100% effective, always, and no woman/girl would ever be forced to have intercourse against her will, with or w/o BC. until that day comes, yea.....i am pro-choice.
    pro choice is just a pc way of saying........... pro abortion.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think before we answer this question we need to come to some consensus about what it means to use abortion as a form of birth control.

    And then about how we define "acceptable" and acceptable to whom. ;)

    women who dont use any forms of "traditional" birth control, the pill, condoms, etc. because they can just as easily take the morning after pill or have an abortion if pregnancy happens.

    I think "because" is the key word here.

    Also, I'm not sure why the morning after pill is included with abortion here...
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    decides2dream wrote:
    i have never in my life known of a woman who conscoiusly chooses not to use BC simply b/c " they can just as easily take the morning after pill or have an abortion if pregnancy happens." do you honestly believe there are women who think like this? and if so, what makes you think that?

    i personally believe that women who utilize the morning after pill or abortion are in the same category of 'forethought' as a woman who accidentally - as in not desired at the time - gets pregnant and decides to continue the pregnancy and have the child. the *oops* factor of pregnancy is behind most unwanted pregnancies, no? i think the main problem is the LACK of forethought, period, no matter what decision a woman may actually decide after the fact.


    IS it "so easy" to get the morning after pill or an abortion? again, you truly believe it is an EASY decision to have an abortion? yikes. while i am fully pro-choice, i doubt it is an easy decision, for anyone.


    btw - unless you are one who believes that life begins *right* at conception....what exactly would be the issue with the morning after pill? i mean, IUDs, which are a form of BC, do not allow a fertilized egg to implant in the uterus, so it all does the same thing there. so wouldn't you actually think it is more 'responsible' for lack of a better term, to go and take a morning after pill right away in an *oops* scenario, ya know 'just in case'....rather than wait a few weeks/months....and then decide for abortion? i only ask b/c i just think, isn't the main goal to reduce abortion? so why lump the morning after pill with abortion? i do know some consider it the *same* thing....but really.....all forms of BC interfere with fertilization and/or with implantation of fertilization. so if you are ok with IUDs, i don't really see where the issue lies with the morning after pill. as i said, i am pro-choice....but i would just think even someone who is pro-life, if they truly want to do away with abortion.....access and education to ALL forms of BC, including the morning after pill, would be seen as a good thing.


    sorry for rambling.....;)

    I see you already beat me to it! :) All excellent points!
  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I think before we answer this question we need to come to some consensus about what it means to use abortion as a form of birth control.

    And then about how we define "acceptable" and acceptable to whom. ;)

    women who dont use any forms of "traditional" birth control, the pill, condoms, etc. because they can just as easily take the morning after pill or have an abortion if pregnancy happens.

    I think "because" is the key word here.

    ok and?
    scb wrote:
    Also, I'm not sure why the morning after pill is included with abortion here...

    for those who believe life begins at conception, it is abortion.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:

    yes.

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

    Abortion as Birth Control - 1,300 UK Women Have Had at Least Five Abortions

    The statistics for 2006 showed that nearly 15,000 women in the UK have had three or more abortions, with 54 having had eight or more abortions. A total of 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006, 17,173 of which were on women under 18 years.

    Pritchard said the numbers make it clear that abortion was being used as a form of back-up contraception.


    ---

    http://contraception.about.com/od/unpla ... _stats.htm

    Half of all women seeking a first abortion had not been using any type of contraception when they conceived (despite agreement with their sexual partners about not wanting to become pregnant). These women were seeking an abortion due to not using birth control or because of inconsistent birth control use.

    1. While 3 or more abortion is impressive (no, not in a good way), if a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have 30 abortion - that's 10 times more! - by the time she reached age 45. (I'll have to dig up that source after I get my LA tickets, if you want it.)

    2. Even missing your pill one day when your pharmacy ran out counts as "inconsistent birth control use," but I certainly wouldn't count these among women who supposedly use abortion as birth control. Inconsistent use mean they DO use birth control.
  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    jlew24asu wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
    i do not think it is even subconscious.............i think it is just "fuck it, i will get an abortion."
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    blackredyellow wrote:
    decides2dream wrote:
    i have never in my life known of a woman who conscoiusly chooses not to use BC simply b/c " they can just as easily take the morning after pill or have an abortion if pregnancy happens." do you honestly believe there are women who think like this? and if so, what makes you think that?

    While I don't think that there are many people who decide to forgo all means of birth control because they can just get an abortion if they get pregnant, they do exist...

    But more so, there are a lot of people (mostly young people) who engage in unprotected sex because they are lazy, stupid, don't want to use condoms, are drunk, or whatever... a percentage of these acts result in pregnancy, and a percentage of those who become pregnant take the abortion route.

    spot on.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:

    1. While 3 or more abortion is impressive (no, not in a good way), if a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have 30 abortion - that's 10 times more! - by the time she reached age 45. (I'll have to dig up that source after I get my LA tickets, if you want it.)

    is it acceptable for a woman to have 45 abortions?
    scb wrote:
    2. Even missing your pill one day when your pharmacy ran out counts as "inconsistent birth control use," but I certainly wouldn't count these among women who supposedly use abortion as birth control. Inconsistent use mean they DO use birth control.

    they use abortion as a back up means of birth control. which in my opinion, is wrong.
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    ajedigecko wrote:
    decides2dream wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    i am going to get my wife pregnant today and then, after 1 month, we are going to have an abortion.............that way i will be able to understand the "pro abortion" mindset.

    shit........maybe abortion is not all that bad.



    do please share, b/c i too would love to understand the 'pro-abortion' mindset as i personally have never met anyone who is pro-abortion.


    pro-choice is just that......choice.
    i respect the choice to have a child just as much as i respect the choice to not have one. and in an ideal world, BC would be used 100% of the time when one does not desire a pregnancy, would be 100% effective, always, and no woman/girl would ever be forced to have intercourse against her will, with or w/o BC. until that day comes, yea.....i am pro-choice.
    pro choice is just a pc way of saying........... pro abortion.



    actually, no it isn't.
    i personally am not a fan of abortion, cannot imagine making that choice...thankfully was never faced with such a choice. however, i believe it is a woman's right to have that option available to her if she so desires. i also fully support a womans right to choose to have an initially unwanted child.....and i am especilly in favor of women and men choosing to use BC as a FIRST option to avoid unwanted pregnancy. thus...pro-CHOICE...with the emphasis on CHOICE. i am NOT pro-abortion. however, you can go and label away all you want....as long as the choices remain legal, i honestly couldn't care less what you label my beliefs.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    Because that would be to easy and would make sense.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Just some quick fact about IUDs, in case anyone's interested:

    There are two types of IUDs on the market in the U.S.:

    1. The Mirena IUD contains hormones (no copper) and is good for 5 years.

    2. The ParaGard IUD contains copper (no hormones) and is good for 10 years.


    IUDs are the extremely effective - more effective that birth control pills (primarily because there are no inconsistency issues) and at least as effective as a woman getting her tubes tied (or, heaven forbid :roll: , a guy getting a vasectomy).

    The pain with insertion varies and has a lot to do with whether & when the woman has had children. For women who have never given birth, it can be extremely painful. (But still not as painful as childbirth! :) )

    Although this recommendation has been recanted, some doctors still refuse to provide IUDs to women who have never given birth or who are not in monogamous relationships.

    IUDs cost around $200-$400 each just for the device. Then you still have to pay for the insertion fee, follow-up, etc. It's more cost effective than pills in the long run, but you're out of luck if you can't afford to front the money.

    They fell out of favor in the '70s because the popular IUD at that time had a string that was made of material that helped vaginal infections spread into the uterus, which was even more common in those days of "free love".

    Both IUDs & birth control pills (including the morning after pill) can prevent pregnancy by preventing the sperm from meeting the egg OR by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    confusing?
    confusing how?
    the *oops* factor also allows for improper use of BC. not all worries of pregnancy stem from lack of use, but also sometimes the fear that BC was not used properly, the condom broke, possibly missed a BC pill, all sorts of issues....and sure.....those who engage in sex without using BC. yea, it happens....often. thus all those teen mothers, all those single mothers....all those unwanted babies....and yes, abortions.

    people make mistakes, errors in judgement. we have the means to try and 'correct' such errors....such means are legal....and thus good to utilize when appropriate. you don't believe in abortion or the morning after pill. got it. other people do. thankfully, the right to choose such options ARE legal. therefore, yea...hidsight is 20/20....but also, for MANY, i think most really....would far prefer correcting their 'mistake' with the morning after pill rather than abortion. so yes, for all those less than perfect people who actually make errors sometimes, it's a good option for those inclined.




    scb - thanks for the info on IUDs. shows ya how 'updated' my info is, hahaha. i was always under the impression that IUDs were considered less effective. that said, i know a few women who have opted for them for the convenience factor, and also for the breast cancer/tamoxifen factor.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    blackredyellow wrote:

    While I don't think that there are many people who decide to forgo all means of birth control because they can just get an abortion if they get pregnant, they do exist...

    But more so, there are a lot of people (mostly young people) who engage in unprotected sex because they are lazy, stupid, don't want to use condoms, are drunk, or whatever... a percentage of these acts result in pregnancy, and a percentage of those who become pregnant take the abortion route.

    if abortion were illegal, I wonder how this would change the mindset of people being lazy, stupid, dont want to use condoms, drunk, etc.

    The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    decides2dream wrote:
    i will not let the 'extremes' in the situation infringe on the rights of the majority.

    EXCELLENT point!! :D
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    prfctlefts wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    Because that would be to easy and would make sense.

    yea....b/c every single unintended pregnancy is always the result of no BC being utlized. :roll: puh-leese. BC failure/imporoper use is a factor, and let's not forget....women being forced to have intercourse against their will, so yea...not exactly always 'prepared' with BC in case of rape. :? seriously, you want to preach against abortion, full respect...but at the very least have the respect that it is not *always* a question of not being responsible. i know of a few women who got pregnant WHILE using BC.


    there is nothing "too easy" in regards to unintended pregnancy.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:

    The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.

    would you mind posting some sources of this information?
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:

    1. While 3 or more abortion is impressive (no, not in a good way), if a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have 30 abortion - that's 10 times more! - by the time she reached age 45. (I'll have to dig up that source after I get my LA tickets, if you want it.)

    is it acceptable for a woman to have 45 abortions?
    scb wrote:
    2. Even missing your pill one day when your pharmacy ran out counts as "inconsistent birth control use," but I certainly wouldn't count these among women who supposedly use abortion as birth control. Inconsistent use mean they DO use birth control.

    they use abortion as a back up means of birth control. which in my opinion, is wrong.




    um....abortion ALWAYS is a 'back up' means of BC, no? if one uses BC, consistently or inconsistenly, or not at all....then one gets pregnant and chooses to have an abortion, wll then...yea...it is a back up to BC.

    and again, you are using the 'extremes'...and the rare.......as a defense against abortion. perfectly acceptible of course, tho you are infringing on the rights of the vast majority if you think it should be outlawed simply to prevent women from having multiple abortions. even your own stats show it is NOT a wide-spread practice, multiple abortions. and i know you are not taking a hard-line stance, only discussing....but within that discussion, if you ever believe it's ok to have an abortion, i think it would be rather difficult to also impose a limit on how many one may have. i agree, the idea of a woman having multiple abortions rather than using BC regularly doesn't sit well with me, but on the other hand, the idea of abortion being an illegal choice for all women due to the extreme/rare women who may 'abuse' it.....is even worse imo.






    jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha? ;)





    (totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget :lol: )
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    ajedigecko wrote:
    seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?

    Because you didn't plan to have sex. Because the condom broke. Because he didn't pull out like he said he would. Because your hightened fear of pregnancy didn't develop until after the deed was done.

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