jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
I believe he said that to me when I asked him for a source, no?
NO! you told me to go search google and get back to us...and I probably replied with a snide comment
So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then?
no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.
but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.
If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...
yes, I would say that its wrong.
funny you mention that. my best friend was conceived after his mothers tubes were tied. I cant imagine life without him, he is like a brother to me.
so basically, even if a woman does everything in her power to stop herself from getting pregnant (outside of abstinence) as in, being fully responsible.... she should just accept any pregnancy/child b/c someone else may think it is wrong? i mean, obviously, if a woman has her tubes tied...she does not want children (or more children)....so b/c someone else's morality, like yours, should be able to dictate her choice?
quite honestly, i think if men were faced with these options...it would be a very different story.
thank bejeebus it doesn't work like that!
BC failure is not 'careless'...it's called failure, an accident, etc.
of course, you are entitled to your opinion, not saying otherwise.....just saying that while you may view it as so, doesn't make it so, either.
and svb - contrary to what jlew says.....YES! you asked him for a source, and he said to use fucking google.
um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.
I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.
and while YOU believe BC failure may be careless.....many others do not, they view it purely as failure, and therefore can easily lump being raped and BC failure together when discussing abortion. both are unintended pregnancies, basically thru no fault of the woman. (and i realize you will say the woman using BC had sex of her own free will while the woman raped did not, and yes...correct.....main point being, the woman using BC WAS being responsible/prepared!) thus why i think it's a fine thing to 'lump together'.....just as fine as lumping morning after pill and abortion.
and yes, i leave describing the EXACT way each form of BC works up to scb, b/c i think you and perhaps others should know. again, NOT b/c i want even MORE fighting against women's rights to BC options, but b/c i think in particular, the argument against the morning after pill is a bit misunderstood....b/c again, those who are against it's use, really....should also be against IUDs and all hormonal forms of BC b/c they ALL, may, stop a fertilized egg from implantation.
i do understand having a difficult time of taking a stand on the issue....and i will also say, while i know many woemn are pro-life, i think it is *easier* for lack of a better term, for men to be anti-choice since women's lives/bodies are the most effected by unintended pregnancy. (not saying *you*....just my own thoughts)
and i know...you just like to argue.....just to argue.......;)
so basically, even if a woman does everything in her power to stop herself from getting pregnant (outside of abstinence) as in, being fully responsible.... she should just accept any pregnancy/child b/c someone else may think it is wrong? i mean, obviously, if a woman has her tubes tied...she does not want children (or more children)....so b/c someone else's morality, like yours, should be able to dictate her choice?
did I say it should be illegal? no, I said it was wrong. this is just my opinion.
um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.
I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.
and while YOU believe BC failure may be careless.....many others do not, they view it purely as failure, and therefore can easily lump being raped and BC failure together when discussing abortion. both are unintended pregnancies, basically thru no fault of the woman. (and i realize you will say the woman using BC had sex of her own free will while the woman raped did not, and yes...correct.....main point being, the woman using BC WAS being responsible/prepared!) thus why i think it's a fine thing to 'lump together'.....just as fine as lumping morning after pill and abortion.
and yes, i leave describing the EXACT way each form of BC works up to scb, b/c i think you and perhaps others should know. again, NOT b/c i want even MORE fighting against women's rights to BC options, but b/c i think in particular, the argument against the morning after pill is a bit misunderstood....b/c again, those who are against it's use, really....should also be against IUDs and all hormonal forms of BC b/c they ALL, may, stop a fertilized egg from implantation.
i do understand having a difficult time of taking a stand on the issue....and i will also say, while i know many woemn are pro-life, i think it is *easier* for lack of a better term, for men to be anti-choice since women's lives/bodies are the most effected by unintended pregnancy. (not saying *you*....just my own thoughts)
and i know...you just like to argue.....just to argue.......;)
being a man also limits me personally from taking a hard stance either way. but doing my best to be in touch with my feminine side, I can see why women would be pro choice. an illegal abortion law would basically be invading her body, pardon the pun.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
:P
well its actually a compliment to scb, she sometimes comes across as more knowledgeable on the subject than google
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
whoa slow down. being all the things mentioned is NOT the same as being raped or having birth control fail. completely different things. why are you lumping them together?
I just really hate it when people judge women who have abortions as a group! So you're just talking about the sub-group who wasn't using contraception?
I still hate it when people judge though. You really don't know every possible reason why a woman wasn't using contraception when she became pregnant. There are plenty of factors that influence women having periods of time without contraceptive coverage, and many are institutional issues that can be solved if we care to address them.
When it comes to having sex during those periods without coverage, there are many influences on this decision as well. (Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) Do some women make poor choices? Sure! But, as the saying goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And let's not forget the men who also made poor decisions.
I just think lumping any group of people into categories like lazy & stupid is disrepectful, short-sighted, ignorant, & unproductive. Empower, don't judge.
So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then?
no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.
but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.
If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...
yes, I would say that its wrong.
funny you mention that. my best friend was conceived after his mothers tubes were tied. I cant imagine life without him, he is like a brother to me.
So it's not just those who don't use birth control for whom you think abortion is wrong then, right? You basically think it's wrong any time except in the case you mentioned above (health of the mother, etc.)? I think you may have covered this with D2D already, but I'm just trying to catch up on this thread.
I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.
If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.
\
I just really hate it when people judge women who have abortions as a group! So you're just talking about the sub-group who wasn't using contraception?
I still hate it when people judge though. You really don't know every possible reason why a woman wasn't using contraception when she became pregnant. There are plenty of factors that influence women having periods of time without contraceptive coverage, and many are institutional issues that can be solved if we care to address them.
When it comes to having sex during those periods without coverage, there are many influences on this decision as well. (Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) Do some women make poor choices? Sure! But, as the saying goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And let's not forget the men who also made poor decisions.
I just think lumping any group of people into categories like lazy & stupid is disrepectful, short-sighted, ignorant, & unproductive. Empower, don't judge.
sorry, but its just not possible to break down the millions of women who have abortions on a case by case basis.
many do it out of pure laziness and carelessness.
I'm confused by this statement "(Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) "
what do you mean? who is we? and furthermore, women absolutely have control of the sexual experiences. (short of rape of course) A woman can walk up to any man and most surely have sex, aka "control her sexual experience". can a man? have you ever been to a bar on a Saturday night? doesnt quite work that way for a man.
I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.
If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.
I know enough and practice enough safe sex as well as at the point in my life and relationship to accept the consequences of a pregnancy. as if that was any of your business, but thanks for your concern
So it's not just those who don't use birth control for whom you think abortion is wrong then, right? You basically think it's wrong any time except in the case you mentioned above (health of the mother, etc.)? I think you may have covered this with D2D already, but I'm just trying to catch up on this thread.
I've already stated, I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control. that includes women who have their tubes tied. but I have stopped short of saying I support it being illegal.
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
I agree. People seem to forget that we cannot undo the past. Women who are unintentionally pregnant can only move forward & make the best choices they can given the circumstances. They are not able to change the fact that they are in that situation to begin with, or they would. As my dad used to say, "You've got to do the best you can with what you've got to work with." Condemning or punishing a pregnant woman for having gotten pregnant is not helpful in any way. It's sad that it still makes so many people feel better about themselves. :roll:
I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."
I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....
until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....
Why do we feel the need to place blame every time an unintended pregnancy occurs anyway? (Or is it just when the unintended pregnancy leads to abortion?) Who cares whose "fault" it is? That doesn't address the pregnancy at hand. It doesn't help at all, and yet so much of these discussions is consumed by the attempt to place the blame. Does condemning other people just make us feel better about ourselves? Do we just feel the need to distance ourselves from those "other" people? Is it significant that men, who will never be in this situation, are the ones who place the most blame? Who cares how the women got into the situation? They're all in the same situation now no matter whose "fault" it was.
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body. this happens too with an IUD ( a metal or plastic device, with or w/o hormones, is inserted into a woman's uterus to prevent pregnancy). and this of course happens with the morning after pill. if you at all 'argue' for the side that conception (meaning a fertilized egg) is the point of life....then they ALL would 'count' as abortion, no? it's just a question of when this abortion occurs. now, BC pills and IUD may prevent the fertilization process, but again, it may not.....but may prevent the implantation of the fertilized egg....you see? btw - this oftentimes occurs, quite naturally, in a woman's body. an egg gets fertilized but fails to implant, aka a miscarriage.....aka a spontaneous abortion. again, oftentimes, this happens so early that the woman is entirely unaware. and once more...i say this not to try and add more fuel to those against a woman's options, but merely to see what *counts* as you put it.
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body.
whoa, hold on.
call me crazy but isn't "preventing implantation" and an "egg that is already fertilized" two completely different things?
I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."
I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....
until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....
I've been around a long time and have never heard such nonsense.
Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).
o wait, I see what you are saying dream. I misread that at first glance. I'll respond later, I gotta run.
basically I was only looking at this from the "life beings at conception" point of view. not that I am for that but just trying to see things from that point of view. just need to say that before I'm labeled some far right wing christian extremist.
People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).
I think I was leaving out the implantation part of this process. but I understand.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body.
whoa, hold on.
call me crazy but isn't "preventing implantation" and an "egg that is already fertilized" two completely different things?
they are...however......BC pills......IUDs.....the patch...the ring.....etc......ALL can do BOTH. they may prevent fertilization, but if that fails they may prevent implantation. this has been said numerous times, in numerous ways, on this thread. you see now?
and i was trying to respond to scb earlier and got booted off, but here's my earlier response:
People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).
exactly.
that was the point i've made a few times here, and on other threads...but none ever address it. i too think it is 'extreme' but i also think it extreme to think life begins *exactly* at conception......so that the idea of the morning after pill is considered 'abortion.' thus if THAT, the map is considered abortion, well then, i personally think that almost all forms of BC would fall in line. now it doesn't IMO, but i am saying IF you take that stance.....well, it fits. obviously, no...it may NOT always happen after fertilization, it may well occur before....thing is, you just don't know. so if it's OK to do so the day before you have sex, or the day you have sex.....why isn't it ok the morning after you have sex? :? that's where i get a wee bit lost with those who take the stance of conception being the absolute beginning, and it is *murder*. (and yes, i DO believe *life* begins, b/c of course...something is alive, on the cellular level......but as often has been said by me and others...the potential for a human life is NOT a human life....just as you elegantly dstated elsewhere, an acorn is not an oaktree)
perhaps to better clarify for jlew, and perhaps others...since there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding fertilization and implantation.
fertilization - egg and sperm met and join aka conception (the start of life to some)
implantation - said fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus to grow
many forms of BC, listed a few times now, can prevent BOTH of these things. it may prevent fertilization or...if that doesn't happen...it may prevent implantation.
pregnancy can NOT continue unless the fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus. therefore, preventing fertilization and/or preventing implantation....BOTH can prevent pregnancy. however, for those who believe life begins at conception.....i wonder how they feel about BC pills, IUDs, the patch, the ring, injections, etc.....b/c again, all these methods MAY terminate a pregnancy by barring implantation, as in, after conception. that has been my question all along...
btw - just an aside....i always remember back to my human biology course in my undergrad years - a loooonnnngggg time ago - surprising my professor with the knowledge of how IUDs first came into being. they were first used ages and ages ago, in ancient times, to prevent camels from getting pregnant during long journeys. the shepards would inset rocks into the female camels uteruses. more than likely they had no understanding as to 'why' it worked...just that it worked. and that was the rudementary beginnings of our human IUDs. i always found that fascinating, and i had learned that tidbit reading the science section of my daily newspaper...
Why do we feel the need to place blame every time an unintended pregnancy occurs anyway? (Or is it just when the unintended pregnancy leads to abortion?) Who cares whose "fault" it is? That doesn't address the pregnancy at hand. It doesn't help at all, and yet so much of these discussions is consumed by the attempt to place the blame. Does condemning other people just make us feel better about ourselves? Do we just feel the need to distance ourselves from those "other" people? Is it significant that men, who will never be in this situation, are the ones who place the most blame? Who cares how the women got into the situation? They're all in the same situation now no matter whose "fault" it was.
Things that make you go Hmmmm.......
hmmm, indeed.
but cmon now, they are shirking their responsibility! not owning up to their lazy, stupid, drunk, immature behavior! that is the ONLY possibility! they deserve blame and condemnation....and therefore b/c they ARE stupid, lazy and immature...they absolutely should now become responsible parents!
I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.
I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."
I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....
until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....
It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around. If you're in no position to start and support a family, don't put yourself in a position (pun intended?) where unwanted pregnancy is a potential outcome. Who wants to be forced pay for someone else's mistakes or lack of planning? The key word being 'forced.' Who is to say that without so many taxes going towards welfare programs that there wouldn't be greater voluntary community outreach to support families in need?
When I think of the phrase "abortion as birth control" I equate that to the people I know that are / were by their own admission too ignorant to take enough precautions against an undesired pregnancy. The result being, "OOPS, ummm... I didn't think THAT would happen. I guess we have to resort to... Plan A?" This IS for real. In the small sample set that is my life's experience with abortion, this is the most common reason that I've come across for people having abortions. Mind you that I'm not exactly in the business of researching reasons why people have this procedure done, and I understand that every situation is different.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.
i am sorry for what you went through.
that said, i am a firm believer that it IS a choice, not a child. it MAy become a child, if pregnancy is left to continue and all goes well. this is where a great # of people differ in their beliefs. i am not saying my thoughts are right and yours are wrong, but it does go both ways there. and i also know women who have had abortions and do not regret it at all....and others who have had em and did regret it. i think almost all DO regret being faced with the deicsion, that's for sure.
It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around.
abortion IS one way of 'taking responsibility' of your actions all the way around. it may not be for YOU, but for others, it is. it is legal, it is a choice, and it absolutely is taking responsibility.
Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.
It's sad if there are people who actually feel this way (the people you are obviously mocking). I believe God tells us in the Bible to go out and populate the earth, actually What's sad is that society has reached this point where it is more difficult than ever to procreate and be able to adequately provide for one's family. You'd think with all of our advancement that it would be easier than ever to be able to take care of family. It's just not the case-- yet historically speaking, teen pregnancy was once a common thing, and now it's practically a crisis (or "GREAT TV" if you're MTV or Sarah Palin -- sorry, couldn't resist).
Comments
NO! you told me to go search google and get back to us...and I probably replied with a snide comment
so basically, even if a woman does everything in her power to stop herself from getting pregnant (outside of abstinence) as in, being fully responsible.... she should just accept any pregnancy/child b/c someone else may think it is wrong? i mean, obviously, if a woman has her tubes tied...she does not want children (or more children)....so b/c someone else's morality, like yours, should be able to dictate her choice?
quite honestly, i think if men were faced with these options...it would be a very different story.
thank bejeebus it doesn't work like that!
BC failure is not 'careless'...it's called failure, an accident, etc.
of course, you are entitled to your opinion, not saying otherwise.....just saying that while you may view it as so, doesn't make it so, either.
and svb - contrary to what jlew says.....YES! you asked him for a source, and he said to use fucking google.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
and while YOU believe BC failure may be careless.....many others do not, they view it purely as failure, and therefore can easily lump being raped and BC failure together when discussing abortion. both are unintended pregnancies, basically thru no fault of the woman. (and i realize you will say the woman using BC had sex of her own free will while the woman raped did not, and yes...correct.....main point being, the woman using BC WAS being responsible/prepared!) thus why i think it's a fine thing to 'lump together'.....just as fine as lumping morning after pill and abortion.
and yes, i leave describing the EXACT way each form of BC works up to scb, b/c i think you and perhaps others should know. again, NOT b/c i want even MORE fighting against women's rights to BC options, but b/c i think in particular, the argument against the morning after pill is a bit misunderstood....b/c again, those who are against it's use, really....should also be against IUDs and all hormonal forms of BC b/c they ALL, may, stop a fertilized egg from implantation.
i do understand having a difficult time of taking a stand on the issue....and i will also say, while i know many woemn are pro-life, i think it is *easier* for lack of a better term, for men to be anti-choice since women's lives/bodies are the most effected by unintended pregnancy. (not saying *you*....just my own thoughts)
and i know...you just like to argue.....just to argue.......;)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
did I say it should be illegal? no, I said it was wrong. this is just my opinion.
really? maybe i remember it wrong :P must have caught me on a bad day
being a man also limits me personally from taking a hard stance either way. but doing my best to be in touch with my feminine side, I can see why women would be pro choice. an illegal abortion law would basically be invading her body, pardon the pun.
Nice save!
The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.
ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.
I just really hate it when people judge women who have abortions as a group! So you're just talking about the sub-group who wasn't using contraception?
I still hate it when people judge though. You really don't know every possible reason why a woman wasn't using contraception when she became pregnant. There are plenty of factors that influence women having periods of time without contraceptive coverage, and many are institutional issues that can be solved if we care to address them.
When it comes to having sex during those periods without coverage, there are many influences on this decision as well. (Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) Do some women make poor choices? Sure! But, as the saying goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And let's not forget the men who also made poor decisions.
I just think lumping any group of people into categories like lazy & stupid is disrepectful, short-sighted, ignorant, & unproductive. Empower, don't judge.
So it's not just those who don't use birth control for whom you think abortion is wrong then, right? You basically think it's wrong any time except in the case you mentioned above (health of the mother, etc.)? I think you may have covered this with D2D already, but I'm just trying to catch up on this thread.
If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.
sorry, but its just not possible to break down the millions of women who have abortions on a case by case basis.
many do it out of pure laziness and carelessness.
I'm confused by this statement "(Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) "
what do you mean? who is we? and furthermore, women absolutely have control of the sexual experiences. (short of rape of course) A woman can walk up to any man and most surely have sex, aka "control her sexual experience". can a man? have you ever been to a bar on a Saturday night?
I know enough and practice enough safe sex as well as at the point in my life and relationship to accept the consequences of a pregnancy. as if that was any of your business, but thanks for your concern
I've already stated, I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control. that includes women who have their tubes tied. but I have stopped short of saying I support it being illegal.
I agree. People seem to forget that we cannot undo the past. Women who are unintentionally pregnant can only move forward & make the best choices they can given the circumstances. They are not able to change the fact that they are in that situation to begin with, or they would. As my dad used to say, "You've got to do the best you can with what you've got to work with." Condemning or punishing a pregnant woman for having gotten pregnant is not helpful in any way. It's sad that it still makes so many people feel better about themselves. :roll:
I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....
until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....
Things that make you go Hmmmm.......
what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body. this happens too with an IUD ( a metal or plastic device, with or w/o hormones, is inserted into a woman's uterus to prevent pregnancy). and this of course happens with the morning after pill. if you at all 'argue' for the side that conception (meaning a fertilized egg) is the point of life....then they ALL would 'count' as abortion, no? it's just a question of when this abortion occurs. now, BC pills and IUD may prevent the fertilization process, but again, it may not.....but may prevent the implantation of the fertilized egg....you see? btw - this oftentimes occurs, quite naturally, in a woman's body. an egg gets fertilized but fails to implant, aka a miscarriage.....aka a spontaneous abortion. again, oftentimes, this happens so early that the woman is entirely unaware. and once more...i say this not to try and add more fuel to those against a woman's options, but merely to see what *counts* as you put it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
whoa, hold on.
call me crazy but isn't "preventing implantation" and an "egg that is already fertilized" two completely different things?
I've been around a long time and have never heard such nonsense.
People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).
basically I was only looking at this from the "life beings at conception" point of view. not that I am for that but just trying to see things from that point of view. just need to say that before I'm labeled some far right wing christian extremist.
I think I was leaving out the implantation part of this process. but I understand.
they are...however......BC pills......IUDs.....the patch...the ring.....etc......ALL can do BOTH. they may prevent fertilization, but if that fails they may prevent implantation. this has been said numerous times, in numerous ways, on this thread. you see now?
and i was trying to respond to scb earlier and got booted off, but here's my earlier response:
exactly.
that was the point i've made a few times here, and on other threads...but none ever address it. i too think it is 'extreme' but i also think it extreme to think life begins *exactly* at conception......so that the idea of the morning after pill is considered 'abortion.' thus if THAT, the map is considered abortion, well then, i personally think that almost all forms of BC would fall in line. now it doesn't IMO, but i am saying IF you take that stance.....well, it fits. obviously, no...it may NOT always happen after fertilization, it may well occur before....thing is, you just don't know. so if it's OK to do so the day before you have sex, or the day you have sex.....why isn't it ok the morning after you have sex? :? that's where i get a wee bit lost with those who take the stance of conception being the absolute beginning, and it is *murder*. (and yes, i DO believe *life* begins, b/c of course...something is alive, on the cellular level......but as often has been said by me and others...the potential for a human life is NOT a human life....just as you elegantly dstated elsewhere, an acorn is not an oaktree)
perhaps to better clarify for jlew, and perhaps others...since there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding fertilization and implantation.
fertilization - egg and sperm met and join aka conception (the start of life to some)
implantation - said fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus to grow
many forms of BC, listed a few times now, can prevent BOTH of these things. it may prevent fertilization or...if that doesn't happen...it may prevent implantation.
pregnancy can NOT continue unless the fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus. therefore, preventing fertilization and/or preventing implantation....BOTH can prevent pregnancy. however, for those who believe life begins at conception.....i wonder how they feel about BC pills, IUDs, the patch, the ring, injections, etc.....b/c again, all these methods MAY terminate a pregnancy by barring implantation, as in, after conception. that has been my question all along...
btw - just an aside....i always remember back to my human biology course in my undergrad years - a loooonnnngggg time ago
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
hmmm, indeed.
but cmon now, they are shirking their responsibility! not owning up to their lazy, stupid, drunk, immature behavior! that is the ONLY possibility! they deserve blame and condemnation....and therefore b/c they ARE stupid, lazy and immature...they absolutely should now become responsible parents!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.
It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around. If you're in no position to start and support a family, don't put yourself in a position (pun intended?) where unwanted pregnancy is a potential outcome. Who wants to be forced pay for someone else's mistakes or lack of planning? The key word being 'forced.' Who is to say that without so many taxes going towards welfare programs that there wouldn't be greater voluntary community outreach to support families in need?
When I think of the phrase "abortion as birth control" I equate that to the people I know that are / were by their own admission too ignorant to take enough precautions against an undesired pregnancy. The result being, "OOPS, ummm... I didn't think THAT would happen. I guess we have to resort to... Plan A?" This IS for real. In the small sample set that is my life's experience with abortion, this is the most common reason that I've come across for people having abortions. Mind you that I'm not exactly in the business of researching reasons why people have this procedure done, and I understand that every situation is different.
i am sorry for what you went through.
that said, i am a firm believer that it IS a choice, not a child. it MAy become a child, if pregnancy is left to continue and all goes well. this is where a great # of people differ in their beliefs. i am not saying my thoughts are right and yours are wrong, but it does go both ways there. and i also know women who have had abortions and do not regret it at all....and others who have had em and did regret it. i think almost all DO regret being faced with the deicsion, that's for sure.
and again...
abortion IS one way of 'taking responsibility' of your actions all the way around. it may not be for YOU, but for others, it is. it is legal, it is a choice, and it absolutely is taking responsibility.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow