Speaking on the cost of a child... this is an aisde... and lends itself to another HUGE problem is the US
Ok... It costs approximately $17,000 a year to send your child to a SUNY school (State University of New York) that is an estimate from their website and incudes room and board and books.
You know what is costs to send a 2 year old to full time day care on Long Island? OVER 16,000 a year!
Average is between $285-$310 a week. Theres is a "summer camp differential" and/or a seperate tuition at most for the months of July and August. And an annual enrollment fee each September.
I was paying $290... then he moved to "preschool" which is $10 less... but now we have our $35 summer camp differential! AND... all the school runs the same way. You must pay by the week... because they are holding your child's spot. SO if your child is sick... or does someting like two years olds sometimes do... scratches or bites or something and can't go to school... it's $10 an hour IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO FIND A DECENT BABYSITTER!!!!!!! There were about two months were i had an average of about 6 missed days a month... that's an extra $350 a month!!!
Financially, I can barely afford to keep my kid in a decent daycare .... and i have a masters degree!! Granted they dont pay me much to help care for all the unwanted children (already) roaming the planet... but still...
Before anyone says that "career women" (LOL) have the means to care for a child ... EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT..... there are also a lot of other factors... like familial supports and the ability to provide the child with a loving, stable, nurturing environment. At times this can be quite a feat.
REALLY well-stated, and exactly what i was alluding to. i am really tired of the 'judgements' for what others may perceive as the reasons for women choosing as they do. shirking responsibility, choosing career over the child, convenience, etc. there are a whole host of reasons why a woman may choose abortion as opposed to following thru with a pregnancy......and they are HER reasons. she does not owe anyone an explanation, and i think it is 'horrible and bitter' to borrow words from another post...for so many to lay down judgements on people and actions they have NO idea why they were chosen! and beyond all the reasons.....it's still her CHOICE.
btw - in regards to the career women having the most abortions ( a claim i will neither agree or disagree with b/c i honestly just don't know).....but even if true, so what? what exactly does that prove? that women with careers are aware of their legal options and choose to utilize them? they have access to doctors and clinics and choose to go? a woman with a career means nothing more than she is employed. i know plenty of 'career women'.....well-educated women....who in no way could afford to support a child, especially on their own, and yes....who will care for their baby while they are at work? just b/c one earns a paycheck doesn't mean they make a lot of $$$, nor does it mean they have any support network in place either. and even if she can afford it, you think being able to afford a child is the only reason one choose to have, or not have, a baby? there's so much more to it. besides which, thankfully, women have the legal option to make a choice for themselves of what they truly want. either way, it's her choice.
Exactly. I think it's especially significant that:
1. There is a huge and increasing disparity in unintended pregnancy based on income, with unintended pregnancy increasing by 29% among poor women in the United States from 1994 to 2001.
2. MOST women (73%) having abortions in the U.S. cited inability to afford a baby right then as one of the reasons for choosing abortion.
3. MOST women (74%) having abortion in the U.S. cited concern for and/or responisibility to other individuals (such as their existing children) as one of the reasons for choosing abortion. MOST women (61%) having abortions are mothers.
4. MOST women (57%) having abortion in the U.S. are living at less than 200% of the poverty level ($28,300 gross for a family of three). The abortion rate is increasingly higher as income decreases (10 per 1,000 women of reproductive age for those who live at or above 300% of the poverty level compared to 44 per 1,000 for those who live at less than 100%).
So, although I don't know whether or not it's true that most women who have abortions are employed (I would guess that "career women" is a stretch though), I think it's obvious that employment itself does not make one financially able to care for a child.
I would love for some people who are so concerned about abortion to actually see the bigger picture and maybe even address these issues.
And that's just the income factor. Don't even get me started on how maternal mortality is still the leading cause of death among women worldwide, and the death rates due to abortion in countries where it is illegal.....
WOW. to all of it, but especially the parts i bolded. i did not know this. perhaps if BC were cheaper, especially BC such as the BC pill...and/or.....all had health insurance WITH prescriptions covered....it just might help some with the poverty correlation. and obviously, a woman already a mother with other mouths to feed and care for....making a decision that she thinks best aides her entire FAMILY, not just herself.
Speaking on the cost of a child... this is an aisde... and lends itself to another HUGE problem is the US
Ok... It costs approximately $17,000 a year to send your child to a SUNY school (State University of New York) that is an estimate from their website and incudes room and board and books.
You know what is costs to send a 2 year old to full time day care on Long Island? OVER 16,000 a year!
Average is between $285-$310 a week. Theres is a "summer camp differential" and/or a seperate tuition at most for the months of July and August. And an annual enrollment fee each September.
I was paying $290... then he moved to "preschool" which is $10 less... but now we have our $35 summer camp differential! AND... all the school runs the same way. You must pay by the week... because they are holding your child's spot. SO if your child is sick... or does someting like two years olds sometimes do... scratches or bites or something and can't go to school... it's $10 an hour IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO FIND A DECENT BABYSITTER!!!!!!! There were about two months were i had an average of about 6 missed days a month... that's an extra $350 a month!!!
Financially, I can barely afford to keep my kid in a decent daycare .... and i have a masters degree!! Granted they dont pay me much to help care for all the unwanted children (already) roaming the planet... but still...
Before anyone says that "career women" (LOL) have the means to care for a child ... EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT..... there are also a lot of other factors... like familial supports and the ability to provide the child with a loving, stable, nurturing environment. At times this can be quite a feat.
Wow - thanks for that insight! And that cost doesn't even include room and board and books! I think so many people pass judgement about what other people can afford when they really have no experience trying to afford a kid or even knowledge of what things cost.
REALLY well-stated, and exactly what i was alluding to. i am really tired of the 'judgements' for what others may perceive as the reasons for women choosing as they do. shirking responsibility, choosing career over the child, convenience, etc. there are a whole host of reasons why a woman may choose abortion as opposed to following thru with a pregnancy......and they are HER reasons. she does not owe anyone an explanation, and i think it is 'horrible and bitter' to borrow words from another post...for so many to lay down judgements on people and actions they have NO idea why they were chosen! and beyond all the reasons.....it's still her CHOICE.
What's that saying I've read somewhere? Judge not lest ye be judged? Never judge a person 'til you walk a mile in her shoes? Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?
I think it's important to note the difference between judging someone's actions (at which point, you still need not impose your belief system upon them) and judging someone's intentions/heart/circumstances/etc. (of which no one else can really have any knowledge).
1) Why is it all of a sudden a problem for you that someone researces a topic for debate? Seems very reasonable and appropriate.
2) Social reasons can't be valid? You have to ask that question to someone that believes that human life begins at conception? (which is what I thin he/she believes)
And, now you are going to suggest that there are "unborn fetuses" that don't want to live? Seriously? Wow, just wow.
I was just thinking some more about this post so I decided to re-reply.
1) Why do you keep attaching value judgements to my questions? That's really irritating, and a misrepresentation of what I'm saying. Also, when she said "I have researched for several years on abortion to debate people who are for it," it made me wonder if she was in one of those groups whose sole purpose is to debate people who are pro-choice. Again, this was a simple question. (I also suspected this because she hasn't provided any real sources for all her "research" and the data she presented is inaccurate. Interestingly, she never did answer my question.)
2) Again, a neutral question. And your suggestion that I should presume that anyone who believes human life begins at conception necessarily believes social reasons can't be valid is ignorant. I, myself, believe human life begins at conception and I think social reasons are totally valid.
3) I have never suggested that unborn fetuses want to NOT live. I just don't think it follows from "everyone has the right to life" that no one should ever have an abortion. We need to recognize that a) rights are not mandates, and b) those who believe that are projecting their own beliefs onto the fetus.
Speaking on the cost of a child... this is an aisde... and lends itself to another HUGE problem is the US
Ok... It costs approximately $17,000 a year to send your child to a SUNY school (State University of New York) that is an estimate from their website and incudes room and board and books.
You know what is costs to send a 2 year old to full time day care on Long Island? OVER 16,000 a year!
Average is between $285-$310 a week. Theres is a "summer camp differential" and/or a seperate tuition at most for the months of July and August. And an annual enrollment fee each September.
I was paying $290... then he moved to "preschool" which is $10 less... but now we have our $35 summer camp differential! AND... all the school runs the same way. You must pay by the week... because they are holding your child's spot. SO if your child is sick... or does someting like two years olds sometimes do... scratches or bites or something and can't go to school... it's $10 an hour IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO FIND A DECENT BABYSITTER!!!!!!! There were about two months were i had an average of about 6 missed days a month... that's an extra $350 a month!!!
Financially, I can barely afford to keep my kid in a decent daycare .... and i have a masters degree!! Granted they dont pay me much to help care for all the unwanted children (already) roaming the planet... but still...
Before anyone says that "career women" (LOL) have the means to care for a child ... EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT..... there are also a lot of other factors... like familial supports and the ability to provide the child with a loving, stable, nurturing environment. At times this can be quite a feat.
Let’s do some math…
So, as I pointed out earlier, 57% of women having abortion in the United States live at less than 200% of the federal poverty level – which (at the time of the study) was $28,300 for a family of 3 (before taxes). How much money is left over to support said family once daycare expenses are paid? For the sake of argument, let’s even assume that this family of 3 consists of two parents (married, of course) and one (non-bastard) child of theirs. So….
$28,300
- $16,000
$12,300
So that’s $12,300 left to support two adults and one child for a full year. That’s $1,025 per month to pay for rent, utilities, food, diapers, clothes, transportation, healthcare, etc. for 3 people.
Are there really people here who still think EVERY woman with a job can afford to have a baby? Can people still not understand how someone might not be able to afford reliable contraception? (God forbid it was a single woman with 2 children, or the next pregnancy resulted in twins!)
So, as I pointed out earlier, 57% of women having abortion in the United States live at less than 200% of the federal poverty level – which (at the time of the study) was $28,300 for a family of 3 (before taxes). How much money is left over to support said family once daycare expenses are paid? For the sake of argument, let’s even assume that this family of 3 consists of two parents (married, of course) and one (non-bastard) child of theirs. So….
$28,300
- $16,000
$12,300
So that’s $12,300 left to support two adults and one child for a full year. That’s $1,025 per month to pay for rent, utilities, food, diapers, clothes, transportation, healthcare, etc. for 3 people.
Are there really people here who still think EVERY woman with a job can afford to have a baby? Can people still not understand how someone might not be able to afford reliable contraception? (God forbid it was a single woman with 2 children, or the next pregnancy resulted in twins!)
why do you all care what a woman does with her body anyways?????
I don't. I'm worried about what she is doing to the baby's body inside of her.
well you know what? if youre not prepared to raise the foetus once it becomes a child because i cant cope with its being, then you all need to just worry about yourself. it aggravates me no end that people think they have the right to say what it is i can and cant do with my body. having an abortion is not an easy decision to make. it can lead to all sorts of problems. the opinion i hold as to my ability to raise a child i am illprepared for far outweighs any supposed moral objection strangers have.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Speaking on the cost of a child... this is an aisde... and lends itself to another HUGE problem is the US
Ok... It costs approximately $17,000 a year to send your child to a SUNY school (State University of New York) that is an estimate from their website and incudes room and board and books.
You know what is costs to send a 2 year old to full time day care on Long Island? OVER 16,000 a year!
Average is between $285-$310 a week. Theres is a "summer camp differential" and/or a seperate tuition at most for the months of July and August. And an annual enrollment fee each September.
I was paying $290... then he moved to "preschool" which is $10 less... but now we have our $35 summer camp differential! AND... all the school runs the same way. You must pay by the week... because they are holding your child's spot. SO if your child is sick... or does someting like two years olds sometimes do... scratches or bites or something and can't go to school... it's $10 an hour IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO FIND A DECENT BABYSITTER!!!!!!! There were about two months were i had an average of about 6 missed days a month... that's an extra $350 a month!!!
Financially, I can barely afford to keep my kid in a decent daycare .... and i have a masters degree!! Granted they dont pay me much to help care for all the unwanted children (already) roaming the planet... but still...
Before anyone says that "career women" (LOL) have the means to care for a child ... EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT..... there are also a lot of other factors... like familial supports and the ability to provide the child with a loving, stable, nurturing environment. At times this can be quite a feat.
What's really sad is that once upon a time in America, it only took one parent working to support a family. The other could stay home to raise the kids. Kids weren't put into daycare and school earlier in life like they are now-- parents have less control over what their kids learn and from who they learn. We're being forced to let the state raise our families, and it's a vicious downward spiral of a system that breeds itself bigger and bigger. Take television for example-- Have no time to monitor what your kids watch on television because you're too busy working to pay half of everything you own back to the government? Don't worry! We have an FCC for that! An FCC who thinks that showing A BOOB on television is far more damaging to the development of our society than showing someone's head being blown off. Bang up job they're doing there!
The fact is, if we were all allowed to have greater governance over ourselves and our families, it wouldn't matter nearly as much if abortion was a legal option-- as there would be far less of them, and the percentage of those abortions that are 100% medically necessary would make up the majority of total abortions performed.
What's really sad is that once upon a time in America, it only took one parent working to support a family. The other could stay home to raise the kids. Kids weren't put into daycare and school earlier in life like they are now-- parents have less control over what their kids learn and from who they learn. We're being forced to let the state raise our families, and it's a vicious downward spiral of a system that breeds itself bigger and bigger. Take television for example-- Have no time to monitor what your kids watch on television because you're too busy working to pay half of everything you own back to the government? Don't worry! We have an FCC for that! An FCC who thinks that showing A BOOB on television is far more damaging to the development of our society than showing someone's head being blown off. Bang up job they're doing there!
The fact is, if we were all allowed to have greater governance over ourselves and our families, it wouldn't matter nearly as much if abortion was a legal option-- as there would be far less of them, and the percentage of those abortions that are 100% medically necessary would make up the majority of total abortions performed.
do you really believe that to be true?
i ask because i look at countries such as sweden and norway, for example....probably a LOT more 'government involvement' due to UHC, taxes, etc....and it seems to me, quality of life and choice-wise, they seem to fare a lot better. they also are not nearly as religious as a country as we are, and don't allow religious beliefs to play such a large role in their government/laws. these countries have some of the BEST maternity/paternity leave, LOTs of support for working parents, daycare, BC, UHC, etc. and sure...also take into account, many, many children....and many unwanted pregnancies, occur with single women.....so it isn't solely the demise of the one-income family, it is a major shift in lifestyle choices, period. i found the fact that 61% of abortions were for women who were already mothers illuminating. i wonder what incomes, how involved the fathers, if they had healthcare and prescription coverage, etc....
the days of one-income families being the norm for the middle class are gone....here and elsewhere. it's not merely a USA problem., it's a world-wide issue, and i think many other countries deal with it a lot better thn we do, overall. i think we as a society cling to the old too much, wish we were back there, instead of accepting where we are and coming up with creative solutions to make how we live our lives today, better.
however, i do know that less governmental involvement is always your answer.
I have browsed through some of the comments and noticed some things referring to me.
My sole purpose is NOT to debate people through my research. I've done lots of research because as a Christian it's my job to shed light on dark issues. This issue is close to my heart. Our society has lost it's morality and that means too many people are Morally Bankrupt. That also means too many babies have lost their lives because of it.
I have browsed through some of the comments and noticed some things referring to me.
My sole purpose is NOT to debate people through my research. I've done lots of research because as a Christian it's my job to shed light on dark issues. This issue is close to my heart. Our society has lost it's morality and that means too many people are Morally Bankrupt. That also means too many babies have lost their lives because of it.
just because someone does not share YOUR personal, christian morals...does not make them morally bankrupt. this issue is close to my heart as well, just from my own sense of morality and what is right and just. 'morals' are quite subjective, depending on your belief system, the time and culture you live in, spheres of influence, etc. your personal morals are no more right or wrong than anyone else's....and there certainly should not be religious influence in our government - seperation of church and state - but what we as a society deem right and just, which should be based on our collective morality - which is vast, since we are a country of many differing religions, cultures, belief systems. our laws are our morality as a country.
What's really sad is that once upon a time in America, it only took one parent working to support a family. The other could stay home to raise the kids. Kids weren't put into daycare and school earlier in life like they are now-- parents have less control over what their kids learn and from who they learn. We're being forced to let the state raise our families, and it's a vicious downward spiral of a system that breeds itself bigger and bigger. Take television for example-- Have no time to monitor what your kids watch on television because you're too busy working to pay half of everything you own back to the government? Don't worry! We have an FCC for that! An FCC who thinks that showing A BOOB on television is far more damaging to the development of our society than showing someone's head being blown off. Bang up job they're doing there!
The fact is, if we were all allowed to have greater governance over ourselves and our families, it wouldn't matter nearly as much if abortion was a legal option-- as there would be far less of them, and the percentage of those abortions that are 100% medically necessary would make up the majority of total abortions performed.
do you really believe that to be true?
i ask because i look at countries such as sweden and norway, for example....probably a LOT more 'government involvement' due to UHC, taxes, etc....and it seems to me, quality of life and choice-wise, they seem to fare a lot better. they also are not nearly as religious as a country as we are, and don't allow religious beliefs to play such a large role in their government/laws. these countries have some of the BEST maternity/paternity leave, LOTs of support for working parents, daycare, BC, UHC, etc. and sure...also take into account, many, many children....and many unwanted pregnancies, occur with single women.....so it isn't solely the demise of the one-income family, it is a major shift in lifestyle choices, period. i found the fact that 61% of abortions were for women who were already mothers illuminating. i wonder what incomes, how involved the fathers, if they had healthcare and prescription coverage, etc....
the days of one-income families being the norm for the middle class are gone....here and elsewhere. it's not merely a USA problem., it's a world-wide issue, and i think many other countries deal with it a lot better thn we do, overall. i think we as a society cling to the old too much, wish we were back there, instead of accepting where we are and coming up with creative solutions to make how we live our lives today, better.
however, i do know that less governmental involvement is always your answer.
Oh you know I believe it to be true! Here's a shocker for you though-- do I think bigger government can work in other parts of the world? mmmmmmmmmaybe
This is because the Scandanavian countries (that are always cited as examples here) have a more uniform culture and identity than we do here. Socialism probably does work better for them. The US is actually still in its infant stages in terms of it's culture-- or is has it matured to be the culture of everything?
For this reason, I would say it is just as bad for everyone to have 1 small group of people (who will inevitably come to power through the funding of special interests) dictate what is best for us as the religious influence (also a special interest of sorts?) that you cite being present in this country. Everyone is just so different here-- it's pretty great, actually. For this reason autonomy and freedom are the keys to success and happiness on this particular piece of land.
And the reason that the single-income home is dead / dying is because the government and all of it's uselessness and inefficiency (from wars to welfare) has destroyed the value and purchasing power of our currency, and has taxed us into slavery. Working more = more time away from the family = no good.
I have browsed through some of the comments and noticed some things referring to me.
My sole purpose is NOT to debate people through my research. I've done lots of research because as a Christian it's my job to shed light on dark issues. This issue is close to my heart. Our society has lost it's morality and that means too many people are Morally Bankrupt. That also means too many babies have lost their lives because of it.
Even sadder than babies that have lost their lives are ones born to people who dont want to have a baby... get no pre-natal care... and possibly abuse their bodies while pregnant (i.e. drugs alcohol etc...) What do you think happens when people are forced to continue a pregnancy they don't want? Do you think they are going to nurture the fetus in side of them or try to kill it whether intentionally or not? Have you seen babies born to some people who didnt want them... because for whaetever reason they didnt abort the pregnancy that they DIDN'T WANT? Have you seen, met, witnessed babies, children, people ... that were born with multiple congenital anomolies.... and then left in trash cans... or start their lives living in filthy crack houses... beaten, shaken, neglected, sexually abused and/or exploited... because NO ONE wants them or cares for them. This is reality. There are tons of these kids already. DO NOT KID YOURSELF TO THINK THESE CHILDREN HAVE LIVES MANY MANY MANY DO NOT. A LIFE LIKE THAT IS NOT A LIFE... IT IS AN EXISTENCE... AND A VERY SAD ONE AT THAT.
So I keep on reading this thread and only see the female perspective. So let a man give this a shot.(this is her fiance') First the problem does not lie in cost or any burden to do solely with money. The fact is that we got a lot of so called "Men" who are actually little boys who are not stepping up to take care of their responsibilties. We argue numbers all day, and keep finding new ones to add to debate. Common sense tells me that IF YOU CANT AFFORD A BABY OR DONT WANT A BABY. Then A. keep your pants on. B. Dont let every smooth talking jerk that comes your way get in bed with you, and do it the right way. WAIT UNTILL YOUR MARRIED!!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! So todays lesson is I will not allow myself to get pregnant unless I know I am going to be able to support my baby. Regardless of how its done. You know it takes two male/female to get pregnant. Why do we assume that the problem can only be fixed untill the pregnancy takes place? When it can be avoided completly.
I am a conservative and I can understand this. Liberal minded persons alike should also be able to use common sense and understand that we can avoid the issue completly by just not getting pregnant.
So I keep on reading this thread and only see the female perspective. So let a man give this a shot.(this is the fiance') First the problem does not lie in cost or any burden to do soley with money. The fact is that we got a lot of so called "Men" who are actually little boys who are not stepping up to take care of their responsibilty's. We argue numbers all day, and keep finding new ones to add to debate. Common sense tells me that "IF YOU CANT AFFORD A BABY OR DONT WANT A BABY. Then A. keep your pants on. B. Dont let every smooth talking jerk that comes your way get in bed with you, and do it the right way. WAIT UNTILL YOUR MARRIED!!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! So todays lesson is I will not allow myself to get pregnant unless I know I am going to be able to support my baby. Regardless of how its done. You know it takes two male/female to get pregnant. Why do we assume that the problem can only be fixed untill the pregnancy takes place? When it can be avoided completly.
I am a conservative and I can understand this. Liberal minded persons alike should also be able to use common sense and understand that we can avoid the issue completly by just not getting pregnant.
there are a few male participants in this thread, such as VINNY above....and others, i believe earlier.
that said, again, just b/c you personally believe sex should only happen after marriage, is simply your pov. some people have no problem with sex before or after, and some don't believe in marriage...so again, why should your personal morality dictate what other people do? as to taking responsibility, i absolutely agree, both men and women need to do so. while you may not agree with it, again, having an abortion IS taking responsibility....and the choice lies with the mother. also, many people DO use BC and still manage to get pregnant. BC failure is one of the biggest reasons for abortion. so many do 'take steps to avoid pregnancy' and still....get pregnant. and of course, sadly, there will ALWAYS be that 7% of abortions due to....rape, medical necessity, fetus mortality. and actually, MANY of us assume the problem CAN be 'taken care of" BEFORE intercourse, just that the reality is, that doesn't always happen. bottomline, it is legal and it is a valid choice that a woman or girl may make for herself, so really, it's no one else's business. you don't have to agree with that, that's simply reality.
btw - it interests me to see you think being married solves the problem? again, many people do not believe in marriage, never intend to marry. many people who are married still are not at a point of being able to support a child, and/or maybe they already have a few children and therefore cnnot afford another. also, there are people who marry and yet....they have no desire to have children. there are so many scenarios in there that 'being married' in and of itself, is no answer.
What's really sad is that once upon a time in America, it only took one parent working to support a family. The other could stay home to raise the kids. Kids weren't put into daycare and school earlier in life like they are now-- parents have less control over what their kids learn and from who they learn. We're being forced to let the state raise our families, and it's a vicious downward spiral of a system that breeds itself bigger and bigger. Take television for example-- Have no time to monitor what your kids watch on television because you're too busy working to pay half of everything you own back to the government? Don't worry! We have an FCC for that! An FCC who thinks that showing A BOOB on television is far more damaging to the development of our society than showing someone's head being blown off. Bang up job they're doing there!
The fact is, if we were all allowed to have greater governance over ourselves and our families, it wouldn't matter nearly as much if abortion was a legal option-- as there would be far less of them, and the percentage of those abortions that are 100% medically necessary would make up the majority of total abortions performed.
do you really believe that to be true?
i ask because i look at countries such as sweden and norway, for example....probably a LOT more 'government involvement' due to UHC, taxes, etc....and it seems to me, quality of life and choice-wise, they seem to fare a lot better. they also are not nearly as religious as a country as we are, and don't allow religious beliefs to play such a large role in their government/laws. these countries have some of the BEST maternity/paternity leave, LOTs of support for working parents, daycare, BC, UHC, etc. and sure...also take into account, many, many children....and many unwanted pregnancies, occur with single women.....so it isn't solely the demise of the one-income family, it is a major shift in lifestyle choices, period. i found the fact that 61% of abortions were for women who were already mothers illuminating. i wonder what incomes, how involved the fathers, if they had healthcare and prescription coverage, etc....
the days of one-income families being the norm for the middle class are gone....here and elsewhere. it's not merely a USA problem., it's a world-wide issue, and i think many other countries deal with it a lot better thn we do, overall. i think we as a society cling to the old too much, wish we were back there, instead of accepting where we are and coming up with creative solutions to make how we live our lives today, better.
however, i do know that less governmental involvement is always your answer.
Oh you know I believe it to be true! Here's a shocker for you though-- do I think bigger government can work in other parts of the world? mmmmmmmmmaybe
This is because the Scandanavian countries (that are always cited as examples here) have a more uniform culture and identity than we do here. Socialism probably does work better for them. The US is actually still in its infant stages in terms of it's culture-- or is has it matured to be the culture of everything?
For this reason, I would say it is just as bad for everyone to have 1 small group of people (who will inevitably come to power through the funding of special interests) dictate what is best for us as the religious influence (also a special interest of sorts?) that you cite being present in this country. Everyone is just so different here-- it's pretty great, actually. For this reason autonomy and freedom are the keys to success and happiness on this particular piece of land.
And the reason that the single-income home is dead / dying is because the government and all of it's uselessness and inefficiency (from wars to welfare) has destroyed the value and purchasing power of our currency, and has taxed us into slavery. Working more = more time away from the family = no good.
But yeah, you know where I stand.
i hear ya vinny, i really do. i too think our diversity is one of our greatest things, and also can be a hindrance of sorts as you say above. however, even within all that, i still think say the scandinavian model could work as well. not saying i want their *exact* system, or that such would work here....but i think we could indeed find a balance. and it's funny, b/c in many ways, i think those scandinavians are a lot more 'free' simply b/c they have a lot less worry about their basic needs. i think that is very freeing. different perspectives to be sure.
and as to our culture...i think we actually had a 'culture'...and then abandoned it, and working on a new one. so the report is still out on that one. yet, i do not think this 'culture' needs to be solidified/set, simply to be able to move forward on work on these many social issues.
beyond all that tho, the erosion of the one-income family i do not lie solely at the feet of government. there are so many social factors involved in that as well. and as i said, even if the one-income family were still the norm, if everything else in our scoiety were to remain as is....i do not truly see how that would iradicate abortion. it may help, absolutely....but the main issues we have for abortion, overall, would remain.
but yes...i do know where you stand.
and hey, i always appreciate your perspective....it always gets me thinkin'...
I'm really disguested with this thread and the comments I keep reading.
Abortion is NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!! <--- This is grotesque and monsterous!! Abortion is giving up and giving in to what our society says. News flash: babies are not trash to be discarded because of whatever the circumstances are.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
I'm really disguested with this thread and the comments I keep reading.
Abortion is NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!! <--- This is grotesque and monsterous!! Abortion is giving up and giving in to what our society says. News flash: babies are not trash to be discarded because of whatever the circumstances are.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Kristina
whatever you say.........;)
hey, i respect your right to your own perspective, it just simply is NOT mine, not by a long shot.
and again, just b/c you think one way, doesn't make you 'right' and others who think differently 'wrong'....it simply means, we have different beliefs.
and you bet, babies aren't trash....thus why many of us believe in supporting choice, so that babies don't become trash.
and hey, the reality is...i do believe jesus taught tolerance and understanding.....and judge not lest thee be judged....and so it goes...beyond that, many have their own faiths and beliefs, and there it is.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
You talking about Jesus Diaz? He's not at this agency... He was at the St. Chris RTC.
Yeah... that poor kid is a fucking mess... it's horrible to watch him at 16 years old... in a wheelchair with an IQ of about 50... and a feeding tube.... so so so sad.... And he realizes that while some kids have families that come visit them... he's one who has no one. I hated to hear him crying every morning... part of why i left working at the RTC and switched over to group homes. Just too sad.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
You talking about Jesus Diaz? He's not at this agency... He was at the St. Chris RTC.
Yeah... that poor kid is a fucking mess... it's horrible to watch him at 16 years old... in a wheelchair with an IQ of about 50... and a feeding tube.... so so so sad.... And he realizes that while some kids have families that come visit them... he's one who has no one. I hated to hear him crying every morning... part of why i left working at the RTC and switched over to group homes. Just too sad.
tragic.
i don't know how so many work in that field, so heart-wrenching.
hell, even back in my student teaching days and being involved with some of the more severe cases of children with special needs, broke my heart. i cannot imagine doing so on a daily basis and i truly applaud those who do.
and you bet, my concern is first and foremost with the thinking and feeling people out in the world today.
I'm really disguested with this thread and the comments I keep reading.
Abortion is NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!! <--- This is grotesque and monsterous!! Abortion is giving up and giving in to what our society says. News flash: babies are not trash to be discarded because of whatever the circumstances are.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Kristina
Just out of curiosity, are there any prolife people who aren't religious? (maybe even on this board?)
While I'm more on the "not a fan of killing fetus/babies/whatever-name-fits-your-agenda" side of things, it does frustrate me that it seems that 99% of prolife people are "jesus" people.
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
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*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I have browsed through some of the comments and noticed some things referring to me.
My sole purpose is NOT to debate people through my research. I've done lots of research because as a Christian it's my job to shed light on dark issues. This issue is close to my heart. Our society has lost it's morality and that means too many people are Morally Bankrupt. That also means too many babies have lost their lives because of it.
That's all fine & dandy and all, but I fail to see how you're shedding light on any dark issues. We seem to be stuck at kind of a surface level of conversation on this issue. It's all well and good (and easy) to sit on a high horse and proclaim moral bankruptcy, but it's naive to fail to consider the context of issues such as abortion. Life's more complicated than that.
The right should never have been given to kill babies. The right should not exist. If you have killed your baby you are a murderer. I know a girl who has killed 3 babies, buy 3 differnet fathers. SLUT
So I keep on reading this thread and only see the female perspective. So let a man give this a shot.(this is her fiance') First the problem does not lie in cost or any burden to do solely with money. The fact is that we got a lot of so called "Men" who are actually little boys who are not stepping up to take care of their responsibilties. We argue numbers all day, and keep finding new ones to add to debate. Common sense tells me that IF YOU CANT AFFORD A BABY OR DONT WANT A BABY. Then A. keep your pants on. B. Dont let every smooth talking jerk that comes your way get in bed with you, and do it the right way. WAIT UNTILL YOUR MARRIED!!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! So todays lesson is I will not allow myself to get pregnant unless I know I am going to be able to support my baby. Regardless of how its done. You know it takes two male/female to get pregnant. Why do we assume that the problem can only be fixed untill the pregnancy takes place? When it can be avoided completly.
I am a conservative and I can understand this. Liberal minded persons alike should also be able to use common sense and understand that we can avoid the issue completly by just not getting pregnant.
First of all, it's good to see a man admit that they have a responsiblity to prevent unintended pregnancy as well.
Secondly, I would be interested to know your feelings about birth control - a question I believe decides2dream has been asking conservatives to answer for quite some time now.
Third, I take exception to your characterization of women who have abortions as promiscuous (which I get from the statement I bolded above).
Fourth, I don't believe it's realistic to suggest that everyone should be married before having sex, nor do I think it's appropriate for your moral/religious beliefs to be applied to those who may have different beliefs (something I believe d2d has already addressed).
Finally, what about the women who are married? While they don't make up the majority of women who have abortions, they do make up a considerable chunk of them. (I don't know what proportion of unintended pregnancies are to married women.) Should a married woman who only wants 2 kids only have sex with her husband twice? (Birth control fails, ya know.)
P.S. What do you suggest be done to reduce the unintended pregnancy rate?
I'm really disguested with this thread and the comments I keep reading.
Abortion is NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!! <--- This is grotesque and monsterous!! Abortion is giving up and giving in to what our society says. News flash: babies are not trash to be discarded because of whatever the circumstances are.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Kristina
Just out of curiosity, are there any prolife people who aren't religious? (maybe even on this board?)
While I'm more on the "not a fan of killing fetus/babies/whatever-name-fits-your-agenda" side of things, it does frustrate me that it seems that 99% of prolife people are "jesus" people.
yeah and the most ardent supporters of war tend to be right wing/religious as well. its ok to kill brown people overseas, but when it comes to fetuses, hell no.
Comments
REALLY well-stated, and exactly what i was alluding to. i am really tired of the 'judgements' for what others may perceive as the reasons for women choosing as they do. shirking responsibility, choosing career over the child, convenience, etc. there are a whole host of reasons why a woman may choose abortion as opposed to following thru with a pregnancy......and they are HER reasons. she does not owe anyone an explanation, and i think it is 'horrible and bitter' to borrow words from another post...for so many to lay down judgements on people and actions they have NO idea why they were chosen! and beyond all the reasons.....it's still her CHOICE.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
WOW. to all of it, but especially the parts i bolded. i did not know this. perhaps if BC were cheaper, especially BC such as the BC pill...and/or.....all had health insurance WITH prescriptions covered....it just might help some with the poverty correlation. and obviously, a woman already a mother with other mouths to feed and care for....making a decision that she thinks best aides her entire FAMILY, not just herself.
thanks once more for all the stats.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Wow - thanks for that insight! And that cost doesn't even include room and board and books! I think so many people pass judgement about what other people can afford when they really have no experience trying to afford a kid or even knowledge of what things cost.
What's that saying I've read somewhere? Judge not lest ye be judged? Never judge a person 'til you walk a mile in her shoes? Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?
I think it's important to note the difference between judging someone's actions (at which point, you still need not impose your belief system upon them) and judging someone's intentions/heart/circumstances/etc. (of which no one else can really have any knowledge).
I was just thinking some more about this post so I decided to re-reply.
1) Why do you keep attaching value judgements to my questions? That's really irritating, and a misrepresentation of what I'm saying. Also, when she said "I have researched for several years on abortion to debate people who are for it," it made me wonder if she was in one of those groups whose sole purpose is to debate people who are pro-choice. Again, this was a simple question. (I also suspected this because she hasn't provided any real sources for all her "research" and the data she presented is inaccurate. Interestingly, she never did answer my question.)
2) Again, a neutral question. And your suggestion that I should presume that anyone who believes human life begins at conception necessarily believes social reasons can't be valid is ignorant. I, myself, believe human life begins at conception and I think social reasons are totally valid.
3) I have never suggested that unborn fetuses want to NOT live. I just don't think it follows from "everyone has the right to life" that no one should ever have an abortion. We need to recognize that a) rights are not mandates, and b) those who believe that are projecting their own beliefs onto the fetus.
Let’s do some math…
So, as I pointed out earlier, 57% of women having abortion in the United States live at less than 200% of the federal poverty level – which (at the time of the study) was $28,300 for a family of 3 (before taxes). How much money is left over to support said family once daycare expenses are paid? For the sake of argument, let’s even assume that this family of 3 consists of two parents (married, of course) and one (non-bastard) child of theirs. So….
$28,300
- $16,000
$12,300
So that’s $12,300 left to support two adults and one child for a full year. That’s $1,025 per month to pay for rent, utilities, food, diapers, clothes, transportation, healthcare, etc. for 3 people.
Are there really people here who still think EVERY woman with a job can afford to have a baby? Can people still not understand how someone might not be able to afford reliable contraception? (God forbid it was a single woman with 2 children, or the next pregnancy resulted in twins!)
BTW...... Isn't that 28,300 BEFORE taxes?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't. I'm worried about what she is doing to the baby's body inside of her.
well you know what? if youre not prepared to raise the foetus once it becomes a child because i cant cope with its being, then you all need to just worry about yourself. it aggravates me no end that people think they have the right to say what it is i can and cant do with my body. having an abortion is not an easy decision to make. it can lead to all sorts of problems. the opinion i hold as to my ability to raise a child i am illprepared for far outweighs any supposed moral objection strangers have.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What's really sad is that once upon a time in America, it only took one parent working to support a family. The other could stay home to raise the kids. Kids weren't put into daycare and school earlier in life like they are now-- parents have less control over what their kids learn and from who they learn. We're being forced to let the state raise our families, and it's a vicious downward spiral of a system that breeds itself bigger and bigger. Take television for example-- Have no time to monitor what your kids watch on television because you're too busy working to pay half of everything you own back to the government? Don't worry! We have an FCC for that! An FCC who thinks that showing A BOOB on television is far more damaging to the development of our society than showing someone's head being blown off. Bang up job they're doing there!
The fact is, if we were all allowed to have greater governance over ourselves and our families, it wouldn't matter nearly as much if abortion was a legal option-- as there would be far less of them, and the percentage of those abortions that are 100% medically necessary would make up the majority of total abortions performed.
do you really believe that to be true?
i ask because i look at countries such as sweden and norway, for example....probably a LOT more 'government involvement' due to UHC, taxes, etc....and it seems to me, quality of life and choice-wise, they seem to fare a lot better. they also are not nearly as religious as a country as we are, and don't allow religious beliefs to play such a large role in their government/laws. these countries have some of the BEST maternity/paternity leave, LOTs of support for working parents, daycare, BC, UHC, etc. and sure...also take into account, many, many children....and many unwanted pregnancies, occur with single women.....so it isn't solely the demise of the one-income family, it is a major shift in lifestyle choices, period. i found the fact that 61% of abortions were for women who were already mothers illuminating. i wonder what incomes, how involved the fathers, if they had healthcare and prescription coverage, etc....
the days of one-income families being the norm for the middle class are gone....here and elsewhere. it's not merely a USA problem., it's a world-wide issue, and i think many other countries deal with it a lot better thn we do, overall. i think we as a society cling to the old too much, wish we were back there, instead of accepting where we are and coming up with creative solutions to make how we live our lives today, better.
however, i do know that less governmental involvement is always your answer.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
My sole purpose is NOT to debate people through my research. I've done lots of research because as a Christian it's my job to shed light on dark issues. This issue is close to my heart. Our society has lost it's morality and that means too many people are Morally Bankrupt. That also means too many babies have lost their lives because of it.
just because someone does not share YOUR personal, christian morals...does not make them morally bankrupt. this issue is close to my heart as well, just from my own sense of morality and what is right and just. 'morals' are quite subjective, depending on your belief system, the time and culture you live in, spheres of influence, etc. your personal morals are no more right or wrong than anyone else's....and there certainly should not be religious influence in our government - seperation of church and state - but what we as a society deem right and just, which should be based on our collective morality - which is vast, since we are a country of many differing religions, cultures, belief systems. our laws are our morality as a country.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Oh you know I believe it to be true! Here's a shocker for you though-- do I think bigger government can work in other parts of the world? mmmmmmmmmaybe
This is because the Scandanavian countries (that are always cited as examples here) have a more uniform culture and identity than we do here. Socialism probably does work better for them. The US is actually still in its infant stages in terms of it's culture-- or is has it matured to be the culture of everything?
For this reason, I would say it is just as bad for everyone to have 1 small group of people (who will inevitably come to power through the funding of special interests) dictate what is best for us as the religious influence (also a special interest of sorts?) that you cite being present in this country. Everyone is just so different here-- it's pretty great, actually. For this reason autonomy and freedom are the keys to success and happiness on this particular piece of land.
And the reason that the single-income home is dead / dying is because the government and all of it's uselessness and inefficiency (from wars to welfare) has destroyed the value and purchasing power of our currency, and has taxed us into slavery. Working more = more time away from the family = no good.
But yeah, you know where I stand.
Even sadder than babies that have lost their lives are ones born to people who dont want to have a baby... get no pre-natal care... and possibly abuse their bodies while pregnant (i.e. drugs alcohol etc...) What do you think happens when people are forced to continue a pregnancy they don't want? Do you think they are going to nurture the fetus in side of them or try to kill it whether intentionally or not? Have you seen babies born to some people who didnt want them... because for whaetever reason they didnt abort the pregnancy that they DIDN'T WANT? Have you seen, met, witnessed babies, children, people ... that were born with multiple congenital anomolies.... and then left in trash cans... or start their lives living in filthy crack houses... beaten, shaken, neglected, sexually abused and/or exploited... because NO ONE wants them or cares for them. This is reality. There are tons of these kids already. DO NOT KID YOURSELF TO THINK THESE CHILDREN HAVE LIVES MANY MANY MANY DO NOT. A LIFE LIKE THAT IS NOT A LIFE... IT IS AN EXISTENCE... AND A VERY SAD ONE AT THAT.
I am a conservative and I can understand this. Liberal minded persons alike should also be able to use common sense and understand that we can avoid the issue completly by just not getting pregnant.
there are a few male participants in this thread, such as VINNY above....and others, i believe earlier.
that said, again, just b/c you personally believe sex should only happen after marriage, is simply your pov. some people have no problem with sex before or after, and some don't believe in marriage...so again, why should your personal morality dictate what other people do? as to taking responsibility, i absolutely agree, both men and women need to do so. while you may not agree with it, again, having an abortion IS taking responsibility....and the choice lies with the mother. also, many people DO use BC and still manage to get pregnant. BC failure is one of the biggest reasons for abortion. so many do 'take steps to avoid pregnancy' and still....get pregnant. and of course, sadly, there will ALWAYS be that 7% of abortions due to....rape, medical necessity, fetus mortality. and actually, MANY of us assume the problem CAN be 'taken care of" BEFORE intercourse, just that the reality is, that doesn't always happen. bottomline, it is legal and it is a valid choice that a woman or girl may make for herself, so really, it's no one else's business. you don't have to agree with that, that's simply reality.
btw - it interests me to see you think being married solves the problem? again, many people do not believe in marriage, never intend to marry. many people who are married still are not at a point of being able to support a child, and/or maybe they already have a few children and therefore cnnot afford another. also, there are people who marry and yet....they have no desire to have children. there are so many scenarios in there that 'being married' in and of itself, is no answer.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
i hear ya vinny, i really do. i too think our diversity is one of our greatest things, and also can be a hindrance of sorts as you say above. however, even within all that, i still think say the scandinavian model could work as well. not saying i want their *exact* system, or that such would work here....but i think we could indeed find a balance. and it's funny, b/c in many ways, i think those scandinavians are a lot more 'free' simply b/c they have a lot less worry about their basic needs. i think that is very freeing. different perspectives to be sure.
and as to our culture...i think we actually had a 'culture'...and then abandoned it, and working on a new one. so the report is still out on that one. yet, i do not think this 'culture' needs to be solidified/set, simply to be able to move forward on work on these many social issues.
beyond all that tho, the erosion of the one-income family i do not lie solely at the feet of government. there are so many social factors involved in that as well. and as i said, even if the one-income family were still the norm, if everything else in our scoiety were to remain as is....i do not truly see how that would iradicate abortion. it may help, absolutely....but the main issues we have for abortion, overall, would remain.
but yes...i do know where you stand.
and hey, i always appreciate your perspective....it always gets me thinkin'...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Abortion is NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!! <--- This is grotesque and monsterous!! Abortion is giving up and giving in to what our society says. News flash: babies are not trash to be discarded because of whatever the circumstances are.
Man, the reality is y'all really need to find and get to know Jesus. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Kristina
whatever you say.........;)
hey, i respect your right to your own perspective, it just simply is NOT mine, not by a long shot.
and again, just b/c you think one way, doesn't make you 'right' and others who think differently 'wrong'....it simply means, we have different beliefs.
and you bet, babies aren't trash....thus why many of us believe in supporting choice, so that babies don't become trash.
and hey, the reality is...i do believe jesus taught tolerance and understanding.....and judge not lest thee be judged....and so it goes...beyond that, many have their own faiths and beliefs, and there it is.
all the best.....
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
You talking about Jesus Diaz? He's not at this agency... He was at the St. Chris RTC.
Yeah... that poor kid is a fucking mess... it's horrible to watch him at 16 years old... in a wheelchair with an IQ of about 50... and a feeding tube.... so so so sad.... And he realizes that while some kids have families that come visit them... he's one who has no one. I hated to hear him crying every morning... part of why i left working at the RTC and switched over to group homes. Just too sad.
tragic.
i don't know how so many work in that field, so heart-wrenching.
hell, even back in my student teaching days and being involved with some of the more severe cases of children with special needs, broke my heart. i cannot imagine doing so on a daily basis and i truly applaud those who do.
and you bet, my concern is first and foremost with the thinking and feeling people out in the world today.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Just out of curiosity, are there any prolife people who aren't religious? (maybe even on this board?)
While I'm more on the "not a fan of killing fetus/babies/whatever-name-fits-your-agenda" side of things, it does frustrate me that it seems that 99% of prolife people are "jesus" people.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
That's all fine & dandy and all, but I fail to see how you're shedding light on any dark issues. We seem to be stuck at kind of a surface level of conversation on this issue. It's all well and good (and easy) to sit on a high horse and proclaim moral bankruptcy, but it's naive to fail to consider the context of issues such as abortion. Life's more complicated than that.
First of all, it's good to see a man admit that they have a responsiblity to prevent unintended pregnancy as well.
Secondly, I would be interested to know your feelings about birth control - a question I believe decides2dream has been asking conservatives to answer for quite some time now.
Third, I take exception to your characterization of women who have abortions as promiscuous (which I get from the statement I bolded above).
Fourth, I don't believe it's realistic to suggest that everyone should be married before having sex, nor do I think it's appropriate for your moral/religious beliefs to be applied to those who may have different beliefs (something I believe d2d has already addressed).
Finally, what about the women who are married? While they don't make up the majority of women who have abortions, they do make up a considerable chunk of them. (I don't know what proportion of unintended pregnancies are to married women.) Should a married woman who only wants 2 kids only have sex with her husband twice? (Birth control fails, ya know.)
P.S. What do you suggest be done to reduce the unintended pregnancy rate?
I know Jesus just fine, thank you, and I think he was pro-choice.
yeah and the most ardent supporters of war tend to be right wing/religious as well. its ok to kill brown people overseas, but when it comes to fetuses, hell no.
that would make an excellent bumper sticker!
and as to your points above...right on.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow