Another abortion thread

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VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

populate the earth

Mission accomplished! :P

(Now let's check that off our collective "to do" list and move on.)

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VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Well, I wasn't trying to make my point from my own religious beliefs, you can't make logical arguments that way. -- I was actually trying to point out that the end goal of everyone should be to work towards a society that doesn't leave anyone behind, and this topic would hardly be an issue. I have come to the conclusion that changing the law will probably not make this world a better place with regards to this topic. The energy is better spent elsewhere.

My place in this discussion was to point out that in my experience, it seems that the percentage of "oops" abortions are probably higher than the vehemently pro-choice crowd care to acknowledge. It seems to me that the reasons for abortion that even staunch pro-lifers would consider "necessary" (health of the mother) are not at all in the majority of reasons why women have this procedure done. Not even close from what I can tell. Would it be better off illegal with some exceptions?

There is no such thing as an "oops" abortion. Pregnanies happen accidentally - not abortions.

Just because a couple (as in 2 people) was careless by not using birth control does not mean the woman (or couple) is careless when making the decision about whether or not to proceed with the pregancy. How one comes to be pregnant is not relevant to how she proceeds once she is pregnant. Half of "oops" pregnancies result in childbirth, after all.

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ajedigecko wrote:

one more thing..........i have never met anyone who has changed their mind on this topic.

has anyone here met someone who has changed their mind?

Yes.

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ajedigecko wrote:

another thought came to me while riding today.........i wonder what the crime rate would be today if all of the abortions did not take place?

would crime be higher due to the amount of people raising unwanted/unloved kids? i do not know, i am only forming my opinion based on what little experience i have had with people who say "i wish i would have never had kids"

those people seem filled with anger/hate.

I believe that question was addressed in the book Freakonomics and they asserted that crime rates would be higher had abortion not been made legal.

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jlew24asu wrote:

sorry, but its just not possible to break down the millions of women who have abortions on a case by case basis.

EXACTLY! And that's why we're not able to judge.

jlew24asu wrote:

many do it out of pure laziness and carelessness.

Haha! At first I thought you meant people categorize & judge others out of laziness & carelessness and I was about to agree with you.

jlew24asu wrote:

I'm confused by this statement "(Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) "

what do you mean? who is we? and furthermore, women absolutely have control of the sexual experiences. (short of rape of course) A woman can walk up to any man and most surely have sex, aka "control her sexual experience". can a man? have you ever been to a bar on a Saturday night? doesnt quite work that way for a man.

We is society in general. What I mean is that there is a whole continuum or gray area between being forcibly raped and being/feeling 100% empowered to say no to sex under any circumstances - and we don't actively provide our women (and especially girls) with all the tools they need to reach the 100% side of the continuum.

Yes, technically women have the right to say no to sex, but there are plenty of manipulative variables involved. Girls often don't have the self-esteem (for lack of a better term) to say no to a boyfriend who doesn't explicitly ask their opinion on the subject. Girls are taught by the media that being sexual is desireable and should be their goal. A drunk (or even sober) woman at a bar may - after flirting with a guy, accepting free drinks, and letting him drive her home - feel like she can't reject the guy's expectation that she sleep with him. Plenty of people mistake sex for love and affection, never having learned the skills to tell them apart. And we all know that once you have sex with someone it's nearly impossible to keep hanging out with them and turn them down in the future.

I'm not saying people aren't ultimately responsible for their decisions to have sex, nor am I excusing the many bad decisions that are made every day. I'm just acknowledging that if we want people to take full responsibility and make the best decisions, we sure could be doing a lot more to empower them to do so - especially young people (including boys).

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jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.

would you mind posting some sources of this information?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.pdf

Let me know if you'd like any more.

inmytree

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."

I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....

until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....

I've been around a long time and have never heard such nonsense.

oh well then...since you've never heard it, I suppose it's never been said...

inmytree

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."

I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....

until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....

It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around. If you're in no position to start and support a family, don't put yourself in a position (pun intended?) where unwanted pregnancy is a potential outcome. Who wants to be forced pay for someone else's mistakes or lack of planning? The key word being 'forced.' Who is to say that without so many taxes going towards welfare programs that there wouldn't be greater voluntary community outreach to support families in need?

When I think of the phrase "abortion as birth control" I equate that to the people I know that are / were by their own admission too ignorant to take enough precautions against an undesired pregnancy. The result being, "OOPS, ummm... I didn't think THAT would happen. I guess we have to resort to... Plan A?" This IS for real. In the small sample set that is my life's experience with abortion, this is the most common reason that I've come across for people having abortions. Mind you that I'm not exactly in the business of researching reasons why people have this procedure done, and I understand that every situation is different.

yeah, poor folks shouldn't have sex....you know, since they can't afford the "consequence"...and we'll all be "forced" to take care of the "consequence"...

I'm unsure where the tax argument came form...

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

decides2dream

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.

would you mind posting some sources of this information?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.pdf

Let me know if you'd like any more.

wow!
that is eye-opening....thanks for the post.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.

would you mind posting some sources of this information?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.pdf

Let me know if you'd like any more.

thank you

jlew24asu

inmytree wrote:

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

how about the women who have had 8 or more abortions? still dont buy it?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

or the increase in women in their mid to late 20s having abortions...

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10589/BLI/ ... /index.htm

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

how about the women who have had 8 or more abortions? still dont buy it?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

or the increase in women in their mid to late 20s having abortions...

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10589/BLI/ ... /index.htm

yes, and it sure plays out as sensationalistic, when you quote the article:

The statistics for 2006 showed that nearly 15,000 women in the UK have had three or more abortions, with 54 having had eight or more abortions. A total of 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006, 17,173 of which were on women under 18 years.



54 women, out of just how many live in the UK? that is hardly a "majority' of women who have that # of abortions. and the increase in women having abortions, again, does not mean they are having LOTs of abortions, each, just simply many women are choosing that option for themselves. all stats can spin however you like to spin em.

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

how about the women who have had 8 or more abortions? still dont buy it?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

or the increase in women in their mid to late 20s having abortions...

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10589/BLI/ ... /index.htm

yes, and it sure plays out as sensationalistic, when you quote the article:

The statistics for 2006 showed that nearly 15,000 women in the UK have had three or more abortions, with 54 having had eight or more abortions. A total of 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006, 17,173 of which were on women under 18 years.



54 women, out of just how many live in the UK? that is hardly a "majority' of women who have that # of abortions. and the increase in women having abortions, again, does not mean they are having LOTs of abortions, each, just simply many women are choosing that option for themselves. all stats can spin however you like to spin em.

I never said it was the majority. just pointing out that it exists.

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jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

how about the women who have had 8 or more abortions? still dont buy it?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

or the increase in women in their mid to late 20s having abortions...

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10589/BLI/ ... /index.htm

First of all, will you please come up with some less biased, more valid sources? I didn't read the entire 1st article (which was written by/for a pro-life website), but just the parts I read were obviously not speaking from an objective point of view. I did read the whole second article, and I haven't seen a more biased, less factually informative article in a long time. It doesn't even name the country or countries to which it's referring.

That said, according to your article, there were 54 women in the UK in 2006 who had had 8 or more abortions. 54. Out of 193,737 abortions that year. That's 0.03% (after rounding up). And it's MUCH less compared to all the women who have had abortions in the UK. That hardly seems representative of much of anything to me. There are 30 TIMES more women than that in the U.S. who had abortions after relying on theirs or their partners sterilizations to prevent pregnancy, and yet when that topic comes up it's usually dismissed as irrelevent because the numbers are so small.

The women in the UK probably didn't even have these abortions in the UK. They probably came from the USSR or some place where contraception was not available and so abortion was actually used as birth control. (We have previously only been talking about the U.S., right?) Or they could have extremely special, rare circumstances, like, I don't know, repeated rape, mental or developmental issues, etc. That's rare and unlikely, you say? Well so is having 8 abortions, and the article you presented proves it.

As for an increase in women in their late 20s have abortions.... uh, so what? That doesn't prove anything.

Besides, the article quoted percentage stats, which are basically meaningless in the context in which they were used. It says the percentage of abortions to women in that age group has increased while the percentage to women in other age groups has decreased. Duh. Since percentages must always add up to 100%, when the raw #s of one group drop the other groups' percentages necessarily increase.

Think of it this way: Say there are 5 men & 5 womn on this board. 50% of the people on this board are women. Now lets say 2 men and 1 woman leave, leaving 3 men & 4 women. There are actually LESS women than there were before, but now the percentage of women has INCREASED from 50% to 57%. Does that mean women are increasingly using the board? No. And the stats in the article don't mean women in their late 20s are having more abortions either.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

and seriously, I don't believe the notion that people use abortion as "birth control" (which is a silly notion, notwithstanding your stellar research )...I'm sorry I just don't buy it...this arguement is just one those extreme charges used one side to incite the other...

how about the women who have had 8 or more abortions? still dont buy it?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032009.html

or the increase in women in their mid to late 20s having abortions...

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10589/BLI/ ... /index.htm

First of all, will you please come up with some less biased, more valid sources? I didn't read the entire 1st article (which was written by/for a pro-life website), but just the parts I read were obviously not speaking from an objective point of view. I did read the whole second article, and I haven't seen a more biased, less factually informative article in a long time. It doesn't even name the country or countries to which it's referring.

That said, according to your article, there were 54 women in the UK in 2006 who had had 8 or more abortions. 54. Out of 193,737 abortions that year. That's 0.03% (after rounding up). And it's MUCH less compared to all the women who have had abortions in the UK. That hardly seems representative of much of anything to me. There are 30 TIMES more women than that in the U.S. who had abortions after relying on theirs or their partners sterilizations to prevent pregnancy, and yet when that topic comes up it's usually dismissed as irrelevent because the numbers are so small.

The women in the UK probably didn't even have these abortions in the UK. They probably came from the USSR or some place where contraception was not available and so abortion was actually used as birth control. (We have previously only been talking about the U.S., right?) Or they could have extremely special, rare circumstances, like, I don't know, repeated rape, mental or developmental issues, etc. That's rare and unlikely, you say? Well so is having 8 abortions, and the article you presented proves it.

As for an increase in women in their late 20s have abortions.... uh, so what? That doesn't prove anything.

Besides, the article quoted percentage stats, which are basically meaningless in the context in which they were used. It says the percentage of abortions to women in that age group has increased while the percentage to women in other age groups has decreased. Duh. Since percentages must always add up to 100%, when the raw #s of one group drop the other groups' percentages necessarily increase.

Think of it this way: Say there are 5 men & 5 womn on this board. 50% of the people on this board are women. Now lets say 2 men and 1 woman leave, leaving 3 men & 4 women. There are actually LESS women than there were before, but now the percentage of women has INCREASED from 50% to 57%. Does that mean women are increasingly using the board? No. And the stats in the article don't mean women in their late 20s are having more abortions either.

dance around the numbers and complain about the sources all you want. it still shows and proves women use abortion as a means of birth control. I think thats wrong.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

yes, and it sure plays out as sensationalistic, when you quote the article:

The statistics for 2006 showed that nearly 15,000 women in the UK have had three or more abortions, with 54 having had eight or more abortions. A total of 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006, 17,173 of which were on women under 18 years.



54 women, out of just how many live in the UK? that is hardly a "majority' of women who have that # of abortions. and the increase in women having abortions, again, does not mean they are having LOTs of abortions, each, just simply many women are choosing that option for themselves. all stats can spin however you like to spin em.

54 serial killers in 1 country is a big deal.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

yes, and it sure plays out as sensationalistic, when you quote the article:

The statistics for 2006 showed that nearly 15,000 women in the UK have had three or more abortions, with 54 having had eight or more abortions. A total of 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006, 17,173 of which were on women under 18 years.



54 women, out of just how many live in the UK? that is hardly a "majority' of women who have that # of abortions. and the increase in women having abortions, again, does not mean they are having LOTs of abortions, each, just simply many women are choosing that option for themselves. all stats can spin however you like to spin em.

54 serial killers in 1 country is a big deal.

indeed it would be!

however, we both know each others views, are not about to change each other's minds....so i have something else i would like to focus on if i may. i have this question a few times in this thread, and gotten no answers....but you also weren't around. so then, it's my understanding that you are a fairly 'moderate' pro-lifer, as in yes, you believe abortion is murder....but you do also support the use of BC. that said, are you also against the use of the morning after pill? and if so, may i ask why? are you also against the use of all hormonal forms of BC ( such as the pill, IUDs, the ring, BC injection, etc) i ask this b/c all of these methods of BC MAY prevent a pregnancy by not allowing implantation of a fertilized egg. they may also work before then, as in, prevent fertiliization itself, but there is no way of knowing just when/how these BC methods do/will work in each given situation. the only methods of BC that work ONLY on preventing fertilization, are condoms and diaphraghms, since they are physical barriers to the sperm ever reaching an egg....whereas this other methods, again, may or may not prevent fertilization, or may or may not prevent implantation.


jlew - as far as the #s go....again, can be spun however you want to. and abortion Is always a form of birth control, no matter how you slice it. if you want to focus ONLY on the small, small minute minority of women who have 8 or more abortions, more power to ya. i really don't know what exactly you are trying to *prove* there. are they using it as their sole method of BC - i have no idea? and if they are and you think that's wrong - well then, what? again, i do not believe the extreme actions/choices of a few should in any way infringe on the rights of the majority...as in the rights of all women to access to abortion.

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jlew24asu wrote:

dance around the numbers and complain about the sources all you want. it still shows and proves women use abortion as a means of birth control. I think thats wrong.

I'll give you that some women in some other countries - at least in the past - have used abortion as birth control when no other contraception was available. I've never said that no woman anywhere has ever at any time used abortion this way.

But, as I said before, using abortion as birth control would cause a woman to have 30 abortions - not 8. Show me the data where women in the U.S. or U.K. have 30 abortions and then we can talk.

And it was your 2nd article - not me - that was dancing around numbers. If you actually believe that the data presented in that article proves that women in their mid to late 20s are increasingly using abortion as birth control, please explain to me how that works.

pandora

scb wrote:

pandora wrote:

I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.

Do you think those bumper stickers prevent women from having abortions or just add salt to the wounds of (possible) regret?

I would hope the bumper sticker would just make people think as it did I. If someone is having multiple abortions that makes me wonder if there is a "wound" at all. Salt in a wound isn't really a bad thing- being humbled by our mistakes is an important part of growing and learning what we believe to be right from wrong.
Someone asked here or thought "has anyone changed their beliefs on the subject"-
over the course of my life I realize that I have changed my beliefs and although I do not want the Gov involved in a women's choice, which makes me pro choice, I see the selfishness, the self centered motivation
that took me personally to abort at 16. Life is a journey of realizing its not"all about you" and I could have given a bit of my life for a life and i regret that now.

decides2dream

pandora wrote:

scb wrote:

pandora wrote:

I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.

Do you think those bumper stickers prevent women from having abortions or just add salt to the wounds of (possible) regret?

I would hope the bumper sticker would just make people think as it did I. If someone is having multiple abortions that makes me wonder if there is a "wound" at all. Salt in a wound isn't really a bad thing- being humbled by our mistakes is an important part of growing and learning what we believe to be right from wrong.
Someone asked here or thought "has anyone changed their beliefs on the subject"-
over the course of my life I realize that I have changed my beliefs and although I do not want the Gov involved in a women's choice, which makes me pro choice, I see the selfishness, the self centered motivation
that took me personally to abort at 16. Life is a journey of realizing its not"all about you" and I could have given a bit of my life for a life and i regret that now.

i truly feel for you, i do. and i think most of us would far prefer no one even be faced with such a choice.....not to even have to contemplate such a decision. i am glad to see you are still pro-choice, b/c while your situation is filled with regret, i am glad you appreciate the fact that it still should be a decision left up to a girl/woman, a choice to make for herself....b/c not all are filled with regret, not at all......many are filled with relief, and i am sure most are filled with numerous emotions, period. i think the choice to have a child or not have a child...either way...filled with many what-ifs, decisions....and emotions....

wish you the best...
hope you find your own peace.