i am going to get my wife pregnant today and then, after 1 month, we are going to have an abortion.............that way i will be able to understand the "pro abortion" mindset.
shit........maybe abortion is not all that bad.
do please share, b/c i too would love to understand the 'pro-abortion' mindset as i personally have never met anyone who is pro-abortion.
pro-choice is just that......choice.
i respect the choice to have a child just as much as i respect the choice to not have one. and in an ideal world, BC would be used 100% of the time when one does not desire a pregnancy, would be 100% effective, always, and no woman/girl would ever be forced to have intercourse against her will, with or w/o BC. until that day comes, yea.....i am pro-choice.
pro choice is just a pc way of saying........... pro abortion.
actually, no it isn't.
i personally am not a fan of abortion, cannot imagine making that choice...thankfully was never faced with such a choice. however, i believe it is a woman's right to have that option available to her if she so desires. i also fully support a womans right to choose to have an initially unwanted child.....and i am especilly in favor of women and men choosing to use BC as a FIRST option to avoid unwanted pregnancy. thus...pro-CHOICE...with the emphasis on CHOICE. i am NOT pro-abortion. however, you can go and label away all you want....as long as the choices remain legal, i honestly couldn't care less what you label my beliefs.
Just some quick fact about IUDs, in case anyone's interested:
There are two types of IUDs on the market in the U.S.:
1. The Mirena IUD contains hormones (no copper) and is good for 5 years.
2. The ParaGard IUD contains copper (no hormones) and is good for 10 years.
IUDs are the extremely effective - more effective that birth control pills (primarily because there are no inconsistency issues) and at least as effective as a woman getting her tubes tied (or, heaven forbid :roll: , a guy getting a vasectomy).
The pain with insertion varies and has a lot to do with whether & when the woman has had children. For women who have never given birth, it can be extremely painful. (But still not as painful as childbirth! )
Although this recommendation has been recanted, some doctors still refuse to provide IUDs to women who have never given birth or who are not in monogamous relationships.
IUDs cost around $200-$400 each just for the device. Then you still have to pay for the insertion fee, follow-up, etc. It's more cost effective than pills in the long run, but you're out of luck if you can't afford to front the money.
They fell out of favor in the '70s because the popular IUD at that time had a string that was made of material that helped vaginal infections spread into the uterus, which was even more common in those days of "free love".
Both IUDs & birth control pills (including the morning after pill) can prevent pregnancy by preventing the sperm from meeting the egg OR by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
confusing?
confusing how?
the *oops* factor also allows for improper use of BC. not all worries of pregnancy stem from lack of use, but also sometimes the fear that BC was not used properly, the condom broke, possibly missed a BC pill, all sorts of issues....and sure.....those who engage in sex without using BC. yea, it happens....often. thus all those teen mothers, all those single mothers....all those unwanted babies....and yes, abortions.
people make mistakes, errors in judgement. we have the means to try and 'correct' such errors....such means are legal....and thus good to utilize when appropriate. you don't believe in abortion or the morning after pill. got it. other people do. thankfully, the right to choose such options ARE legal. therefore, yea...hidsight is 20/20....but also, for MANY, i think most really....would far prefer correcting their 'mistake' with the morning after pill rather than abortion. so yes, for all those less than perfect people who actually make errors sometimes, it's a good option for those inclined.
scb - thanks for the info on IUDs. shows ya how 'updated' my info is, hahaha. i was always under the impression that IUDs were considered less effective. that said, i know a few women who have opted for them for the convenience factor, and also for the breast cancer/tamoxifen factor.
While I don't think that there are many people who decide to forgo all means of birth control because they can just get an abortion if they get pregnant, they do exist...
But more so, there are a lot of people (mostly young people) who engage in unprotected sex because they are lazy, stupid, don't want to use condoms, are drunk, or whatever... a percentage of these acts result in pregnancy, and a percentage of those who become pregnant take the abortion route.
if abortion were illegal, I wonder how this would change the mindset of people being lazy, stupid, dont want to use condoms, drunk, etc.
The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
Because that would be to easy and would make sense.
yea....b/c every single unintended pregnancy is always the result of no BC being utlized. :roll: puh-leese. BC failure/imporoper use is a factor, and let's not forget....women being forced to have intercourse against their will, so yea...not exactly always 'prepared' with BC in case of rape. :? seriously, you want to preach against abortion, full respect...but at the very least have the respect that it is not *always* a question of not being responsible. i know of a few women who got pregnant WHILE using BC.
there is nothing "too easy" in regards to unintended pregnancy.
1. While 3 or more abortion is impressive (no, not in a good way), if a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have 30 abortion - that's 10 times more! - by the time she reached age 45. (I'll have to dig up that source after I get my LA tickets, if you want it.)
is it acceptable for a woman to have 45 abortions?
2. Even missing your pill one day when your pharmacy ran out counts as "inconsistent birth control use," but I certainly wouldn't count these among women who supposedly use abortion as birth control. Inconsistent use mean they DO use birth control.
they use abortion as a back up means of birth control. which in my opinion, is wrong.
um....abortion ALWAYS is a 'back up' means of BC, no? if one uses BC, consistently or inconsistenly, or not at all....then one gets pregnant and chooses to have an abortion, wll then...yea...it is a back up to BC.
and again, you are using the 'extremes'...and the rare.......as a defense against abortion. perfectly acceptible of course, tho you are infringing on the rights of the vast majority if you think it should be outlawed simply to prevent women from having multiple abortions. even your own stats show it is NOT a wide-spread practice, multiple abortions. and i know you are not taking a hard-line stance, only discussing....but within that discussion, if you ever believe it's ok to have an abortion, i think it would be rather difficult to also impose a limit on how many one may have. i agree, the idea of a woman having multiple abortions rather than using BC regularly doesn't sit well with me, but on the other hand, the idea of abortion being an illegal choice for all women due to the extreme/rare women who may 'abuse' it.....is even worse imo.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
Because you didn't plan to have sex. Because the condom broke. Because he didn't pull out like he said he would. Because your hightened fear of pregnancy didn't develop until after the deed was done.
Just some quick fact about IUDs, in case anyone's interested:
There are two types of IUDs on the market in the U.S.:
1. The Mirena IUD contains hormones (no copper) and is good for 5 years.
2. The ParaGard IUD contains copper (no hormones) and is good for 10 years.
IUDs are the extremely effective - more effective that birth control pills (primarily because there are no inconsistency issues) and at least as effective as a woman getting her tubes tied (or, heaven forbid :roll: , a guy getting a vasectomy).
The pain with insertion varies and has a lot to do with whether & when the woman has had children. For women who have never given birth, it can be extremely painful. (But still not as painful as childbirth! )
Although this recommendation has been recanted, some doctors still refuse to provide IUDs to women who have never given birth or who are not in monogamous relationships.
IUDs cost around $200-$400 each just for the device. Then you still have to pay for the insertion fee, follow-up, etc. It's more cost effective than pills in the long run, but you're out of luck if you can't afford to front the money.
They fell out of favor in the '70s because the popular IUD at that time had a string that was made of material that helped vaginal infections spread into the uterus, which was even more common in those days of "free love".
Both IUDs & birth control pills (including the morning after pill) can prevent pregnancy by preventing the sperm from meeting the egg OR by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.
btw - it was always my understanding that IUDs solely prevented implantation of a fertilized egg, and could not prevent fertilization in the first place. and i always thought the opposite of the BC pill. i always thought that the egg got fertilized in the phallopian tubes, traveled down to the uterus, then implanted on the uterine wall to grow. thus, IUDs being in the uterus they could only stop implantation. BC pills i thought actually hindered the actual fertilization process itself. then again, i admit it's been a looonnnggggg time since i last sat in a sex ed class. not questioning your info - know you are propably one of the most well informed on the board.....just goes to show, outdated info exists even for someone who tries to be well-educated on the topic!
women who dont use any forms of "traditional" birth control, the pill, condoms, etc. because they can just as easily take the morning after pill or have an abortion if pregnancy happens.
I think "because" is the key word here.
ok and?
I'm just saying that word implies intent... and I think very few people intentially make the choice to not use birth control BECAUSE they can just get an abortion instead. I think, for most women in this scenario, they are two completely separate choices (or lack thereof).
Also, I'm not sure why the morning after pill is included with abortion here...
for those who believe life begins at conception, it is abortion.
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
um....abortion ALWAYS is a 'back up' means of BC, no? if one uses BC, consistently or inconsistenly, or not at all....then one gets pregnant and chooses to have an abortion, wll then...yea...it is a back up to BC.
well I think using abortion as any form of birth control is wrong. I'll stay short of saying it should be illegal, but I think its wrong nonetheless.
and again, you are using the 'extremes'...and the rare.......as a defense against abortion. perfectly acceptible of course, tho you are infringing on the rights of the vast majority if you think it should be outlawed simply to prevent women from having multiple abortions. even your own stats show it is NOT a wide-spread practice, multiple abortions. and i know you are not taking a hard-line stance, only discussing....but within that discussion, if you ever believe it's ok to have an abortion, i think it would be rather difficult to also impose a limit on how many one may have. i agree, the idea of a woman having multiple abortions rather than using BC regularly doesn't sit well with me, but on the other hand, the idea of abortion being an illegal choice for all women due to the extreme/rare women who may 'abuse' it.....is even worse imo.
vast majority? what are the satistics anyway? I thought the country was fairly split on the abortion issue no?
having abortion illegal doesnt sit well with me either but neither does a woman having 15 abortions....or women (and men) being extremely careless simply because the opinion of abortion is there.
but thats the problem, you cant make abortions illegal for some reasons, and legal for others. while in theory I like it, practical implementation is nearly impossible.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
:P
well its actually a compliment to scb, she sometimes comes across as more knowledgeable on the subject than google
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
1. While 3 or more abortion is impressive (no, not in a good way), if a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her means of birth control and wanted two children, she would have 30 abortion - that's 10 times more! - by the time she reached age 45. (I'll have to dig up that source after I get my LA tickets, if you want it.)
is it acceptable for a woman to have 45 abortions?
It's not my place to judge. My point was that having 3 abortions does not indicate that abortion is being used as birth control.
2. Even missing your pill one day when your pharmacy ran out counts as "inconsistent birth control use," but I certainly wouldn't count these among women who supposedly use abortion as birth control. Inconsistent use mean they DO use birth control.
they use abortion as a back up means of birth control. which in my opinion, is wrong.
So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then? If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...
um....abortion ALWAYS is a 'back up' means of BC, no? if one uses BC, consistently or inconsistenly, or not at all....then one gets pregnant and chooses to have an abortion, wll then...yea...it is a back up to BC.
well I think using abortion as any form of birth control is wrong. I'll stay short of saying it should be illegal, but I think its wrong nonetheless.
and again, you are using the 'extremes'...and the rare.......as a defense against abortion. perfectly acceptible of course, tho you are infringing on the rights of the vast majority if you think it should be outlawed simply to prevent women from having multiple abortions. even your own stats show it is NOT a wide-spread practice, multiple abortions. and i know you are not taking a hard-line stance, only discussing....but within that discussion, if you ever believe it's ok to have an abortion, i think it would be rather difficult to also impose a limit on how many one may have. i agree, the idea of a woman having multiple abortions rather than using BC regularly doesn't sit well with me, but on the other hand, the idea of abortion being an illegal choice for all women due to the extreme/rare women who may 'abuse' it.....is even worse imo.
vast majority? what are the satistics anyway? I thought the country was fairly split on the abortion issue no?
having abortion illegal doesnt sit well with me either but neither does a woman having 15 abortions....or women (and men) being extremely careless simply because the opinion of abortion is there.
but thats the problem, you cant make abortions illegal for some reasons, and legal for others. while in theory I like it, practical implementation is nearly impossible.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
:P
well its actually a compliment to scb, she sometimes comes across as more knowledgeable on the subject than google
as i said tho, it ALWAYS is a back up source of BC. i mean, that's it's main function.
and when i say 'vast majority' i refer to the vast majority of woemn who opt for abortion, not for all citizens in general. you are focused on the woman who has 8 or more abortions ( and there was what.....45? total in the UK?)...i am focused on the vast majority of women who choose abortion, meaning the woman who chooses it once or twice. that's the majority of which i speak.
and sure....good cover.
tho i agree - scb IS an excellent source of info.
oh and scb, i think i see now the difference about IUDs. back in the day (and when i first learned about em) IUDs had no hormonal option, and that is probably why i was still, mistakenly assuming they could ONLY work AFTEr fertilization.
and no one who is truly a full supporter of pro-life, life begins at conception, has really weighed in on THAt topic. i AM curious.....you don't want abortions, i can get that.....but if BC pills, IUDs, can 'sometimes' stop a fertilized egg from implanting.....are those who are believers in life begins at conception against their use too? it is true curiosity on my part. i mean, i know there are those who are anti-BC across the board.....and THAT is a whol other issue, usually rooted in religion (and hey, i support that choice too! i just don't think one should expect others outside their faith to follow suit!)
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
indeed.
and i've said the same at least 2x now. the "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature" are NOT the only options for why one becomes unintentionally pregnant, whether one chooses to have the child or to have an abortion. some people MAY be lazy, stupid, drunk or immature.....and they also may be 'lucky' and dodge a bullet.....or they may not....or they may be a whole host of 'other' reasons as to why they uninitentionally became pregnant.
seems confusing.............if you have the sense to take a morning after pill, why not take a before preventive measure?
this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
whoa slow down. being all the things mentioned is NOT the same as being raped or having birth control fail. completely different things. why are you lumping them together?
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
yes....and so can a lot of other BC, as scb mentions. all hormonal contraception - such as BC pills, and both forms of the IUD...can do the same thing. thus why i have continually asked this question - if one believes life begins at conception and thinks all abortion is wrong....against the morning after pill....why not against BC pills, IUDs.....? it all does the same thing then if that is your belief system. and hey, i am a-ok with anyone following their beliefs, but there is just NO way i think it's 'right' for someone else's belief system to infringe on mine o other women's rights.
condoms and diaphraghms do NOT work in the say way, since they are physical blockers of sperm.
So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then?
no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.
but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.
people make mistakes, errors in judgement. we have the means to try and 'correct' such errors....such means are legal....and thus good to utilize when appropriate. you don't believe in abortion or the morning after pill. got it. other people do. thankfully, the right to choose such options ARE legal. therefore, yea...hidsight is 20/20....but also, for MANY, i think most really....would far prefer correcting their 'mistake' with the morning after pill rather than abortion. so yes, for all those less than perfect people who actually make errors sometimes, it's a good option for those inclined.
Another excellent point!
I'd like to know who of the people here has never made a bad decision. Again, please raise your hands if you fall into this category.
For that matter - of the guys in this conversation (who have ever had sex), who has NEVER had unprotected sex??
scb - thanks for the info on IUDs. shows ya how 'updated' my info is, hahaha. i was always under the impression that IUDs were considered less effective. that said, i know a few women who have opted for them for the convenience factor, and also for the breast cancer/tamoxifen factor.
I think the main reason IUDs are more effective is because there's not much room for error.
Interesting fact about inconsistent birth control use: People in general (men & women) miss taking their prescriptions for other things at the same rate as women miss birth control pills. So women aren't being any less responsible than the rest of the population.
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
yes....and so can a lot of other BC, as scb mentions. all hormonal contraception - such as BC pills, and both forms of the IUD...can do the same thing. thus why i have continually asked this question - if one believes life begins at conception and thinks all abortion is wrong....against the morning after pill....why not against BC pills, IUDs.....? it all does the same thing then if that is your belief system. and hey, i am a-ok with anyone following their beliefs, but there is just NO way i think it's 'right' for someone else's belief system to infringe on mine o other women's rights.
condoms and diaphraghms do NOT work in the say way, since they are physical blockers of sperm.
I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.
I was under the impression that the pill for example, takes away the woman's egg. thus preventing pregnancy. and the morning after bill simply kills the fertilized (living?) egg.
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
whoa slow down. being all the things mentioned is NOT the same as being raped or having birth control fail. completely different things. why are you lumping them together?
um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.
kinda like how you lumped abortion and the morning after pill together, yes? not the same thing.....but to some, they have similarities....
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )
I believe he said that to me when I asked him for a source, no?
um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.
I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.
Comments
actually, no it isn't.
i personally am not a fan of abortion, cannot imagine making that choice...thankfully was never faced with such a choice. however, i believe it is a woman's right to have that option available to her if she so desires. i also fully support a womans right to choose to have an initially unwanted child.....and i am especilly in favor of women and men choosing to use BC as a FIRST option to avoid unwanted pregnancy. thus...pro-CHOICE...with the emphasis on CHOICE. i am NOT pro-abortion. however, you can go and label away all you want....as long as the choices remain legal, i honestly couldn't care less what you label my beliefs.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Because that would be to easy and would make sense.
There are two types of IUDs on the market in the U.S.:
1. The Mirena IUD contains hormones (no copper) and is good for 5 years.
2. The ParaGard IUD contains copper (no hormones) and is good for 10 years.
IUDs are the extremely effective - more effective that birth control pills (primarily because there are no inconsistency issues) and at least as effective as a woman getting her tubes tied (or, heaven forbid :roll: , a guy getting a vasectomy).
The pain with insertion varies and has a lot to do with whether & when the woman has had children. For women who have never given birth, it can be extremely painful. (But still not as painful as childbirth!
Although this recommendation has been recanted, some doctors still refuse to provide IUDs to women who have never given birth or who are not in monogamous relationships.
IUDs cost around $200-$400 each just for the device. Then you still have to pay for the insertion fee, follow-up, etc. It's more cost effective than pills in the long run, but you're out of luck if you can't afford to front the money.
They fell out of favor in the '70s because the popular IUD at that time had a string that was made of material that helped vaginal infections spread into the uterus, which was even more common in those days of "free love".
Both IUDs & birth control pills (including the morning after pill) can prevent pregnancy by preventing the sperm from meeting the egg OR by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.
confusing?
confusing how?
the *oops* factor also allows for improper use of BC. not all worries of pregnancy stem from lack of use, but also sometimes the fear that BC was not used properly, the condom broke, possibly missed a BC pill, all sorts of issues....and sure.....those who engage in sex without using BC. yea, it happens....often. thus all those teen mothers, all those single mothers....all those unwanted babies....and yes, abortions.
people make mistakes, errors in judgement. we have the means to try and 'correct' such errors....such means are legal....and thus good to utilize when appropriate. you don't believe in abortion or the morning after pill. got it. other people do. thankfully, the right to choose such options ARE legal. therefore, yea...hidsight is 20/20....but also, for MANY, i think most really....would far prefer correcting their 'mistake' with the morning after pill rather than abortion. so yes, for all those less than perfect people who actually make errors sometimes, it's a good option for those inclined.
scb - thanks for the info on IUDs. shows ya how 'updated' my info is, hahaha. i was always under the impression that IUDs were considered less effective. that said, i know a few women who have opted for them for the convenience factor, and also for the breast cancer/tamoxifen factor.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
The rates of abortion are the same - and oftentimes higher - in countries where abortion is illegal.
EXCELLENT point!!
yea....b/c every single unintended pregnancy is always the result of no BC being utlized. :roll: puh-leese. BC failure/imporoper use is a factor, and let's not forget....women being forced to have intercourse against their will, so yea...not exactly always 'prepared' with BC in case of rape. :? seriously, you want to preach against abortion, full respect...but at the very least have the respect that it is not *always* a question of not being responsible. i know of a few women who got pregnant WHILE using BC.
there is nothing "too easy" in regards to unintended pregnancy.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
would you mind posting some sources of this information?
um....abortion ALWAYS is a 'back up' means of BC, no? if one uses BC, consistently or inconsistenly, or not at all....then one gets pregnant and chooses to have an abortion, wll then...yea...it is a back up to BC.
and again, you are using the 'extremes'...and the rare.......as a defense against abortion. perfectly acceptible of course, tho you are infringing on the rights of the vast majority if you think it should be outlawed simply to prevent women from having multiple abortions. even your own stats show it is NOT a wide-spread practice, multiple abortions. and i know you are not taking a hard-line stance, only discussing....but within that discussion, if you ever believe it's ok to have an abortion, i think it would be rather difficult to also impose a limit on how many one may have. i agree, the idea of a woman having multiple abortions rather than using BC regularly doesn't sit well with me, but on the other hand, the idea of abortion being an illegal choice for all women due to the extreme/rare women who may 'abuse' it.....is even worse imo.
jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?
(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Because you didn't plan to have sex. Because the condom broke. Because he didn't pull out like he said he would. Because your hightened fear of pregnancy didn't develop until after the deed was done.
btw - it was always my understanding that IUDs solely prevented implantation of a fertilized egg, and could not prevent fertilization in the first place. and i always thought the opposite of the BC pill. i always thought that the egg got fertilized in the phallopian tubes, traveled down to the uterus, then implanted on the uterine wall to grow. thus, IUDs being in the uterus they could only stop implantation. BC pills i thought actually hindered the actual fertilization process itself. then again, i admit it's been a looonnnggggg time since i last sat in a sex ed class.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I'm just saying that word implies intent... and I think very few people intentially make the choice to not use birth control BECAUSE they can just get an abortion instead. I think, for most women in this scenario, they are two completely separate choices (or lack thereof).
Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.
well I think using abortion as any form of birth control is wrong. I'll stay short of saying it should be illegal, but I think its wrong nonetheless.
vast majority? what are the satistics anyway? I thought the country was fairly split on the abortion issue no?
having abortion illegal doesnt sit well with me either but neither does a woman having 15 abortions....or women (and men) being extremely careless simply because the opinion of abortion is there.
but thats the problem, you cant make abortions illegal for some reasons, and legal for others. while in theory I like it, practical implementation is nearly impossible.
:P
well its actually a compliment to scb, she sometimes comes across as more knowledgeable on the subject than google
huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?
See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x
It's not my place to judge. My point was that having 3 abortions does not indicate that abortion is being used as birth control.
So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then? If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...
as i said tho, it ALWAYS is a back up source of BC. i mean, that's it's main function.
and when i say 'vast majority' i refer to the vast majority of woemn who opt for abortion, not for all citizens in general. you are focused on the woman who has 8 or more abortions ( and there was what.....45? total in the UK?)...i am focused on the vast majority of women who choose abortion, meaning the woman who chooses it once or twice. that's the majority of which i speak.
and sure....good cover.
tho i agree - scb IS an excellent source of info.
oh and scb, i think i see now the difference about IUDs. back in the day (and when i first learned about em) IUDs had no hormonal option, and that is probably why i was still, mistakenly assuming they could ONLY work AFTEr fertilization.
and no one who is truly a full supporter of pro-life, life begins at conception, has really weighed in on THAt topic. i AM curious.....you don't want abortions, i can get that.....but if BC pills, IUDs, can 'sometimes' stop a fertilized egg from implanting.....are those who are believers in life begins at conception against their use too? it is true curiosity on my part. i mean, i know there are those who are anti-BC across the board.....and THAT is a whol other issue, usually rooted in religion (and hey, i support that choice too! i just don't think one should expect others outside their faith to follow suit!)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
indeed.
and i've said the same at least 2x now. the "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature" are NOT the only options for why one becomes unintentionally pregnant, whether one chooses to have the child or to have an abortion. some people MAY be lazy, stupid, drunk or immature.....and they also may be 'lucky' and dodge a bullet.....or they may not....or they may be a whole host of 'other' reasons as to why they uninitentionally became pregnant.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
and i believe i am correct in the following:
all the rest......men.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
whoa slow down. being all the things mentioned is NOT the same as being raped or having birth control fail. completely different things. why are you lumping them together?
yes....and so can a lot of other BC, as scb mentions. all hormonal contraception - such as BC pills, and both forms of the IUD...can do the same thing. thus why i have continually asked this question - if one believes life begins at conception and thinks all abortion is wrong....against the morning after pill....why not against BC pills, IUDs.....? it all does the same thing then if that is your belief system. and hey, i am a-ok with anyone following their beliefs, but there is just NO way i think it's 'right' for someone else's belief system to infringe on mine o other women's rights.
condoms and diaphraghms do NOT work in the say way, since they are physical blockers of sperm.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.
but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.
yes, I would say that its wrong.
funny you mention that. my best friend was conceived after his mothers tubes were tied. I cant imagine life without him, he is like a brother to me.
Another excellent point!
I'd like to know who of the people here has never made a bad decision. Again, please raise your hands if you fall into this category.
For that matter - of the guys in this conversation (who have ever had sex), who has NEVER had unprotected sex??
I think the main reason IUDs are more effective is because there's not much room for error.
Interesting fact about inconsistent birth control use: People in general (men & women) miss taking their prescriptions for other things at the same rate as women miss birth control pills. So women aren't being any less responsible than the rest of the population.
I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.
I was under the impression that the pill for example, takes away the woman's egg. thus preventing pregnancy. and the morning after bill simply kills the fertilized (living?) egg.
Sure, but I'll have to dig it up when I have more time.
um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.
kinda like how you lumped abortion and the morning after pill together, yes? not the same thing.....but to some, they have similarities....
scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I believe this is true as well.
I believe he said that to me when I asked him for a source, no?
I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them
but they are the same thing to those who believe life begins at conception.
this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.