Another abortion thread

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?

(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )

I believe he said that to me when I asked him for a source, no?

NO! you told me to go search google and get back to us...and I probably replied with a snide comment

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then?

no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.

but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.

scb wrote:

If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...

yes, I would say that its wrong.

funny you mention that. my best friend was conceived after his mothers tubes were tied. I cant imagine life without him, he is like a brother to me.

so basically, even if a woman does everything in her power to stop herself from getting pregnant (outside of abstinence) as in, being fully responsible.... she should just accept any pregnancy/child b/c someone else may think it is wrong? i mean, obviously, if a woman has her tubes tied...she does not want children (or more children)....so b/c someone else's morality, like yours, should be able to dictate her choice?

quite honestly, i think if men were faced with these options...it would be a very different story.


thank bejeebus it doesn't work like that!



BC failure is not 'careless'...it's called failure, an accident, etc.
of course, you are entitled to your opinion, not saying otherwise.....just saying that while you may view it as so, doesn't make it so, either.



and svb - contrary to what jlew says.....YES! you asked him for a source, and he said to use fucking google.

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.

I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them

decides2dream wrote:

kinda like how you lumped abortion and the morning after pill together, yes? not the same thing.....but to some, they have similarities....

but they are the same thing to those who believe life begins at conception.

decides2dream wrote:

scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.

this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.

and while YOU believe BC failure may be careless.....many others do not, they view it purely as failure, and therefore can easily lump being raped and BC failure together when discussing abortion. both are unintended pregnancies, basically thru no fault of the woman. (and i realize you will say the woman using BC had sex of her own free will while the woman raped did not, and yes...correct.....main point being, the woman using BC WAS being responsible/prepared!) thus why i think it's a fine thing to 'lump together'.....just as fine as lumping morning after pill and abortion.


and yes, i leave describing the EXACT way each form of BC works up to scb, b/c i think you and perhaps others should know. again, NOT b/c i want even MORE fighting against women's rights to BC options, but b/c i think in particular, the argument against the morning after pill is a bit misunderstood....b/c again, those who are against it's use, really....should also be against IUDs and all hormonal forms of BC b/c they ALL, may, stop a fertilized egg from implantation.


i do understand having a difficult time of taking a stand on the issue....and i will also say, while i know many woemn are pro-life, i think it is *easier* for lack of a better term, for men to be anti-choice since women's lives/bodies are the most effected by unintended pregnancy. (not saying *you*....just my own thoughts)


and i know...you just like to argue.....just to argue.......;)

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

so basically, even if a woman does everything in her power to stop herself from getting pregnant (outside of abstinence) as in, being fully responsible.... she should just accept any pregnancy/child b/c someone else may think it is wrong? i mean, obviously, if a woman has her tubes tied...she does not want children (or more children)....so b/c someone else's morality, like yours, should be able to dictate her choice?

did I say it should be illegal? no, I said it was wrong. this is just my opinion.

decides2dream wrote:

and svb - contrary to what jlew says.....YES! you asked him for a source, and he said to use fucking google.

really? maybe i remember it wrong :P must have caught me on a bad day

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

um, i think the point is.......unintended pregnancy. it was mentioned that people/women are 'lazy, stupid, drunk, or whatever else' as to why they get pregnant. and scb clearly points out a FEW other reasons why a woman may find herslef pregnant that does NOT include being lazy or stupid. so in THIS instance...using BC and getting pregnant....or being raped and getting pregnant.....ARE the same, as in, not b/c the woman was lazy, stupid or irresponsible....thus why they are 'lumped together' for this purpose.

I disagree. like I said, I think there are valid reasons for haivng an abortion. being lazy and careless shouldnt be one of them

decides2dream wrote:

kinda like how you lumped abortion and the morning after pill together, yes? not the same thing.....but to some, they have similarities....

but they are the same thing to those who believe life begins at conception.

decides2dream wrote:

scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.

this is way I have a hard time taking a stance either way. I agree, often times the most responsible thing to do is have an abortion. its an unfortunate sad reality.

and while YOU believe BC failure may be careless.....many others do not, they view it purely as failure, and therefore can easily lump being raped and BC failure together when discussing abortion. both are unintended pregnancies, basically thru no fault of the woman. (and i realize you will say the woman using BC had sex of her own free will while the woman raped did not, and yes...correct.....main point being, the woman using BC WAS being responsible/prepared!) thus why i think it's a fine thing to 'lump together'.....just as fine as lumping morning after pill and abortion.


and yes, i leave describing the EXACT way each form of BC works up to scb, b/c i think you and perhaps others should know. again, NOT b/c i want even MORE fighting against women's rights to BC options, but b/c i think in particular, the argument against the morning after pill is a bit misunderstood....b/c again, those who are against it's use, really....should also be against IUDs and all hormonal forms of BC b/c they ALL, may, stop a fertilized egg from implantation.


i do understand having a difficult time of taking a stand on the issue....and i will also say, while i know many woemn are pro-life, i think it is *easier* for lack of a better term, for men to be anti-choice since women's lives/bodies are the most effected by unintended pregnancy. (not saying *you*....just my own thoughts)


and i know...you just like to argue.....just to argue.......;)

being a man also limits me personally from taking a hard stance either way. but doing my best to be in touch with my feminine side, I can see why women would be pro choice. an illegal abortion law would basically be invading her body, pardon the pun.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

jlwe.......you know how to fuckin' use google, why dontcha?


(totally kidding btw - i just can't resist sometimes, especially since that was your arguement when asked to back up your source one time...as i am sure you remember, since i won't let ya forget )

:P

well its actually a compliment to scb, she sometimes comes across as more knowledgeable on the subject than google

Nice save!

_

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.

huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?

The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

Eh... it's no different than any other form of hormonal contraception, including the regular birth control pill... but you didn't include those. I think D2D already covered this topic though.

huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?

The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.

ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

this has been addressed. lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc. personally, I believe another reason is because people subconsciously know the abortion option is there.

See, this is the judgemental attitude that pisses me off. Every woman has a different story. Birth control fails. Access & education are lacking. Women are raped & coerced. There are all sorts of situtations that you can't possibly understand unless you've walked a mile in each and every one of their shoes. To just assume that they are all "lazy, stupid, drunk, immature, etc." is what's lazy, stupid, drunk (?), immature, dispresectful, small-minded, self-centered, heartless, & ignorant. :x

whoa slow down. being all the things mentioned is NOT the same as being raped or having birth control fail. completely different things. why are you lumping them together?

I just really hate it when people judge women who have abortions as a group! So you're just talking about the sub-group who wasn't using contraception?

I still hate it when people judge though. You really don't know every possible reason why a woman wasn't using contraception when she became pregnant. There are plenty of factors that influence women having periods of time without contraceptive coverage, and many are institutional issues that can be solved if we care to address them.

When it comes to having sex during those periods without coverage, there are many influences on this decision as well. (Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) Do some women make poor choices? Sure! But, as the saying goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And let's not forget the men who also made poor decisions.

I just think lumping any group of people into categories like lazy & stupid is disrepectful, short-sighted, ignorant, & unproductive. Empower, don't judge.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

So it sounds like you're saying abortion is always wrong, then?

no. I think there are many situations where abortion should be used....such as health of the mother, rape, or if the baby will be born with no body or whatever it is you explained last time we had this discussion.

but I'm not happy when abortion is used because someone was too lazy to take the pill everyday or didnt want to use a condom because they dont like the way they feel.

scb wrote:

If I have my tubes tied & get pregnant & have an abortion, is that wrong? I'm trying to understand what you're saying here...

yes, I would say that its wrong.

funny you mention that. my best friend was conceived after his mothers tubes were tied. I cant imagine life without him, he is like a brother to me.

So it's not just those who don't use birth control for whom you think abortion is wrong then, right? You basically think it's wrong any time except in the case you mentioned above (health of the mother, etc.)? I think you may have covered this with D2D already, but I'm just trying to catch up on this thread.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.

If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

\
I just really hate it when people judge women who have abortions as a group! So you're just talking about the sub-group who wasn't using contraception?

I still hate it when people judge though. You really don't know every possible reason why a woman wasn't using contraception when she became pregnant. There are plenty of factors that influence women having periods of time without contraceptive coverage, and many are institutional issues that can be solved if we care to address them.

When it comes to having sex during those periods without coverage, there are many influences on this decision as well. (Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) Do some women make poor choices? Sure! But, as the saying goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And let's not forget the men who also made poor decisions.

I just think lumping any group of people into categories like lazy & stupid is disrepectful, short-sighted, ignorant, & unproductive. Empower, don't judge.

sorry, but its just not possible to break down the millions of women who have abortions on a case by case basis.

many do it out of pure laziness and carelessness.


I'm confused by this statement "(Not the least of which is the fact that we don't empower women to take control of their sexual experiences.) "

what do you mean? who is we? and furthermore, women absolutely have control of the sexual experiences. (short of rape of course) A woman can walk up to any man and most surely have sex, aka "control her sexual experience". can a man? have you ever been to a bar on a Saturday night? doesnt quite work that way for a man.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.

If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.

I know enough and practice enough safe sex as well as at the point in my life and relationship to accept the consequences of a pregnancy. as if that was any of your business, but thanks for your concern

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

So it's not just those who don't use birth control for whom you think abortion is wrong then, right? You basically think it's wrong any time except in the case you mentioned above (health of the mother, etc.)? I think you may have covered this with D2D already, but I'm just trying to catch up on this thread.

I've already stated, I dont believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control. that includes women who have their tubes tied. but I have stopped short of saying I support it being illegal.

_

decides2dream wrote:

scb - excllent point about prescriptions/BC and 'being responsible'....which btw - i love that arguement. having an abortion is 'being responsible.' it may not be in a way someone ELSe may approve of, but it's still taking responsibility. the girl who lets her pregnancy go unchecked and gives birth in a toilet....yea....that's rather irresponsible, tho there too, who in the hell knows wtf is going on in her head? however, a girl/woman making the very difficult choice to terminate her pregnancy IS taking responsibility for herself.

I agree. People seem to forget that we cannot undo the past. Women who are unintentionally pregnant can only move forward & make the best choices they can given the circumstances. They are not able to change the fact that they are in that situation to begin with, or they would. As my dad used to say, "You've got to do the best you can with what you've got to work with." Condemning or punishing a pregnant woman for having gotten pregnant is not helpful in any way. It's sad that it still makes so many people feel better about themselves. :roll:

inmytree

I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."

I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....

until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....

_

Why do we feel the need to place blame every time an unintended pregnancy occurs anyway? (Or is it just when the unintended pregnancy leads to abortion?) Who cares whose "fault" it is? That doesn't address the pregnancy at hand. It doesn't help at all, and yet so much of these discussions is consumed by the attempt to place the blame. Does condemning other people just make us feel better about ourselves? Do we just feel the need to distance ourselves from those "other" people? Is it significant that men, who will never be in this situation, are the ones who place the most blame? Who cares how the women got into the situation? They're all in the same situation now no matter whose "fault" it was.

Things that make you go Hmmmm.......

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.

ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.

what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body. this happens too with an IUD ( a metal or plastic device, with or w/o hormones, is inserted into a woman's uterus to prevent pregnancy). and this of course happens with the morning after pill. if you at all 'argue' for the side that conception (meaning a fertilized egg) is the point of life....then they ALL would 'count' as abortion, no? it's just a question of when this abortion occurs. now, BC pills and IUD may prevent the fertilization process, but again, it may not.....but may prevent the implantation of the fertilized egg....you see? btw - this oftentimes occurs, quite naturally, in a woman's body. an egg gets fertilized but fails to implant, aka a miscarriage.....aka a spontaneous abortion. again, oftentimes, this happens so early that the woman is entirely unaware. and once more...i say this not to try and add more fuel to those against a woman's options, but merely to see what *counts* as you put it.

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.

ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.

what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body.

whoa, hold on.


call me crazy but isn't "preventing implantation" and an "egg that is already fertilized" two completely different things?

jlew24asu

inmytree wrote:

I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."

I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....

until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....

I've been around a long time and have never heard such nonsense.