Another abortion thread

soulsinging

Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

huh? maybe I dont understand the morning after pill. doesnt this drug destroy the fertilized egg?

The morning after pill is just a higher dose of regular birth control pills. (They used to just give women a bunch of regular pills at once.) So it works essentially in the same way as birth control pills, which usually work by preventing ovulation, but can also prevent fertilization or implantation. Depends on where the woman is in her cycle and how far the sperm makes it.

ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.

People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).

jlew24asu

o wait, I see what you are saying dream. I misread that at first glance. I'll respond later, I gotta run.

basically I was only looking at this from the "life beings at conception" point of view. not that I am for that but just trying to see things from that point of view. just need to say that before I'm labeled some far right wing christian extremist.

jlew24asu

scb wrote:

People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).

I think I was leaving out the implantation part of this process. but I understand.

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

ok gotcha. I suppose that doesnt really count as a form of abortion. I thought that was its main and only purpose.

what does *count* then?
it is clearly stated that it may prevent implantation. that means, the egg is already fertilized, but due to the use of a hormonal contraceptive, it will prevent this from occuring, thus the fertilized egg will be discharged from the body.

whoa, hold on.


call me crazy but isn't "preventing implantation" and an "egg that is already fertilized" two completely different things?

they are...however......BC pills......IUDs.....the patch...the ring.....etc......ALL can do BOTH. they may prevent fertilization, but if that fails they may prevent implantation. this has been said numerous times, in numerous ways, on this thread. you see now?



and i was trying to respond to scb earlier and got booted off, but here's my earlier response:

scb wrote:

People sometimes consider it a form of abortion because of the possibility that a fertilized egg could be prevented from implanting in the uterus - but this is a really extreme position. The same thing is possible for regular pills, the shot, the patch, IUDs, the ring, and most other forms of birth control (since most are hormonal).

exactly.
that was the point i've made a few times here, and on other threads...but none ever address it. i too think it is 'extreme' but i also think it extreme to think life begins *exactly* at conception......so that the idea of the morning after pill is considered 'abortion.' thus if THAT, the map is considered abortion, well then, i personally think that almost all forms of BC would fall in line. now it doesn't IMO, but i am saying IF you take that stance.....well, it fits. obviously, no...it may NOT always happen after fertilization, it may well occur before....thing is, you just don't know. so if it's OK to do so the day before you have sex, or the day you have sex.....why isn't it ok the morning after you have sex? :? that's where i get a wee bit lost with those who take the stance of conception being the absolute beginning, and it is *murder*. (and yes, i DO believe *life* begins, b/c of course...something is alive, on the cellular level......but as often has been said by me and others...the potential for a human life is NOT a human life....just as you elegantly dstated elsewhere, an acorn is not an oaktree)



perhaps to better clarify for jlew, and perhaps others...since there seems to be some misunderstandings regarding fertilization and implantation.


fertilization - egg and sperm met and join aka conception (the start of life to some)
implantation - said fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus to grow



many forms of BC, listed a few times now, can prevent BOTH of these things. it may prevent fertilization or...if that doesn't happen...it may prevent implantation.


pregnancy can NOT continue unless the fertilized egg is implanted onto the wall of the uterus. therefore, preventing fertilization and/or preventing implantation....BOTH can prevent pregnancy. however, for those who believe life begins at conception.....i wonder how they feel about BC pills, IUDs, the patch, the ring, injections, etc.....b/c again, all these methods MAY terminate a pregnancy by barring implantation, as in, after conception. that has been my question all along...




btw - just an aside....i always remember back to my human biology course in my undergrad years - a loooonnnngggg time ago - surprising my professor with the knowledge of how IUDs first came into being. they were first used ages and ages ago, in ancient times, to prevent camels from getting pregnant during long journeys. the shepards would inset rocks into the female camels uteruses. more than likely they had no understanding as to 'why' it worked...just that it worked. and that was the rudementary beginnings of our human IUDs. i always found that fascinating, and i had learned that tidbit reading the science section of my daily newspaper...

decides2dream

scb wrote:

Why do we feel the need to place blame every time an unintended pregnancy occurs anyway? (Or is it just when the unintended pregnancy leads to abortion?) Who cares whose "fault" it is? That doesn't address the pregnancy at hand. It doesn't help at all, and yet so much of these discussions is consumed by the attempt to place the blame. Does condemning other people just make us feel better about ourselves? Do we just feel the need to distance ourselves from those "other" people? Is it significant that men, who will never be in this situation, are the ones who place the most blame? Who cares how the women got into the situation? They're all in the same situation now no matter whose "fault" it was.

Things that make you go Hmmmm.......

hmmm, indeed.



but cmon now, they are shirking their responsibility! not owning up to their lazy, stupid, drunk, immature behavior! that is the ONLY possibility! they deserve blame and condemnation....and therefore b/c they ARE stupid, lazy and immature...they absolutely should now become responsible parents!

pandora

I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.

VINNY GOOMBA

inmytree wrote:

I love these threads...I'm a big fan of the whole "pro-abortion" arguement...the "use it as birth control" arguement...as if someone is pumping away and they think "hell, who cares, just have an abortion....oh, yeah, baby, that feels good...."

I do wonder if those who are anti-abortion would be crying and moaning about all the poor unwanted babies running around wasting our tax money....yeah, yeah...it's all about life....

until that "life" starts wasting precious tax dollars...then that "life" becomes a lazy good-for-nothing sucking the tit of the state....

It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around. If you're in no position to start and support a family, don't put yourself in a position (pun intended?) where unwanted pregnancy is a potential outcome. Who wants to be forced pay for someone else's mistakes or lack of planning? The key word being 'forced.' Who is to say that without so many taxes going towards welfare programs that there wouldn't be greater voluntary community outreach to support families in need?

When I think of the phrase "abortion as birth control" I equate that to the people I know that are / were by their own admission too ignorant to take enough precautions against an undesired pregnancy. The result being, "OOPS, ummm... I didn't think THAT would happen. I guess we have to resort to... Plan A?" This IS for real. In the small sample set that is my life's experience with abortion, this is the most common reason that I've come across for people having abortions. Mind you that I'm not exactly in the business of researching reasons why people have this procedure done, and I understand that every situation is different.

decides2dream

pandora wrote:

I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.

i am sorry for what you went through.
that said, i am a firm believer that it IS a choice, not a child. it MAy become a child, if pregnancy is left to continue and all goes well. this is where a great # of people differ in their beliefs. i am not saying my thoughts are right and yours are wrong, but it does go both ways there. and i also know women who have had abortions and do not regret it at all....and others who have had em and did regret it. i think almost all DO regret being faced with the deicsion, that's for sure.


and again...

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

It's about taking responsibility for your actions all the way around.

abortion IS one way of 'taking responsibility' of your actions all the way around. it may not be for YOU, but for others, it is. it is legal, it is a choice, and it absolutely is taking responsibility.

VINNY GOOMBA

soulsinging wrote:

Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.

It's sad if there are people who actually feel this way (the people you are obviously mocking). I believe God tells us in the Bible to go out and populate the earth, actually What's sad is that society has reached this point where it is more difficult than ever to procreate and be able to adequately provide for one's family. You'd think with all of our advancement that it would be easier than ever to be able to take care of family. It's just not the case-- yet historically speaking, teen pregnancy was once a common thing, and now it's practically a crisis (or "GREAT TV" if you're MTV or Sarah Palin -- sorry, couldn't resist).

decides2dream

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.

It's sad if there are people who actually feel this way (the people you are obviously mocking). I believe God tells us in the Bible to go out and populate the earth, actually What's sad is that society has reached this point where it is more difficult than ever to procreate and be able to adequately provide for one's family. You'd think with all of our advancement that it would be easier than ever to be able to take care of family. It's just not the case-- yet historically speaking, teen pregnancy was once a common thing, and now it's practically a crisis (or "GREAT TV" if you're MTV or Sarah Palin -- sorry, couldn't resist).

absolutely...and there are those of us who do not take everything from the bible, literally....and then of course, those who simply do not believe! i think it's great to follow your own, personal, religious beliefs....i just dislike when there are some who try to enforce said beliefs on others. and sure, one might imagine that in biblical times, god indeed said 'go forth and multiply'....b/c yea, we were less populous then. perhaps he thought he gave us enough brain power and free will to have the good sense not to try and over-populate the world, just b/c we can...nor to have children we cannot provide for, simply b/c we're fertile.


seriously tho...i do hear ya....but i think like most things, life is balance.

VINNY GOOMBA

decides2dream wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Pregnancy and children are God's punishment upon us for indulging in dirty, disgusting, sinful sex. If you engage in this horrid practice, you deserve to spend the rest of your life paying for it with that child. It doesn't matter how unable you are to provide for it, it's just a tool to punish you anyway and teach you a lesson in responsibility.

It's sad if there are people who actually feel this way (the people you are obviously mocking). I believe God tells us in the Bible to go out and populate the earth, actually What's sad is that society has reached this point where it is more difficult than ever to procreate and be able to adequately provide for one's family. You'd think with all of our advancement that it would be easier than ever to be able to take care of family. It's just not the case-- yet historically speaking, teen pregnancy was once a common thing, and now it's practically a crisis (or "GREAT TV" if you're MTV or Sarah Palin -- sorry, couldn't resist).

absolutely...and there are those of us who do not take everything from the bible, literally....and then of course, those who simply do not believe! i think it's great to follow your own, personal, religious beliefs....i just dislike when there are some who try to enforce said beliefs on others. and sure, one might imagine that in biblical times, god indeed said 'go forth and multiply'....b/c yea, we were less populous then. perhaps he thought he gave us enough brain power and free will to have the good sense not to try and over-populate the world, just b/c we can...nor to have children we cannot provide for, simply b/c we're fertile.


seriously tho...i do hear ya....but i think like most things, life is balance.

Well, I wasn't trying to make my point from my own religious beliefs, you can't make logical arguments that way. -- I was actually trying to point out that the end goal of everyone should be to work towards a society that doesn't leave anyone behind, and this topic would hardly be an issue. I have come to the conclusion that changing the law will probably not make this world a better place with regards to this topic. The energy is better spent elsewhere.

My place in this discussion was to point out that in my experience, it seems that the percentage of "oops" abortions are probably higher than the vehemently pro-choice crowd care to acknowledge. It seems to me that the reasons for abortion that even staunch pro-lifers would consider "necessary" (health of the mother) are not at all in the majority of reasons why women have this procedure done. Not even close from what I can tell. Would it be better off illegal with some exceptions?

decides2dream

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

It's sad if there are people who actually feel this way (the people you are obviously mocking). I believe God tells us in the Bible to go out and populate the earth, actually What's sad is that society has reached this point where it is more difficult than ever to procreate and be able to adequately provide for one's family. You'd think with all of our advancement that it would be easier than ever to be able to take care of family. It's just not the case-- yet historically speaking, teen pregnancy was once a common thing, and now it's practically a crisis (or "GREAT TV" if you're MTV or Sarah Palin -- sorry, couldn't resist).

absolutely...and there are those of us who do not take everything from the bible, literally....and then of course, those who simply do not believe! i think it's great to follow your own, personal, religious beliefs....i just dislike when there are some who try to enforce said beliefs on others. and sure, one might imagine that in biblical times, god indeed said 'go forth and multiply'....b/c yea, we were less populous then. perhaps he thought he gave us enough brain power and free will to have the good sense not to try and over-populate the world, just b/c we can...nor to have children we cannot provide for, simply b/c we're fertile.


seriously tho...i do hear ya....but i think like most things, life is balance.

Well, I wasn't trying to make my point from my own religious beliefs, you can't make logical arguments that way. -- I was actually trying to point out that the end goal of everyone should be to work towards a society that doesn't leave anyone behind, and this topic would hardly be an issue. I have come to the conclusion that changing the law will probably not make this world a better place with regards to this topic. The energy is better spent elsewhere.

My place in this discussion was to point out that in my experience, it seems that the percentage of "oops" abortions are probably higher than the vehemently pro-choice crowd care to acknowledge. It seems to me that the reasons for abortion that even staunch pro-lifers would consider "necessary" (health of the mother) are not at all in the majority of reasons why women have this procedure done. Not even close from what I can tell. Would it be better off illegal with some exceptions?

i was just having a little fun with ya....i've been far too serious today, posting in this thread too much today!

that said, i cannot speak for anyone else....but i would think the *oops* category IS probably the biggest category in the decision to have an abortion, just like the *oops* factor plays in a large perecentage of pregnancies/births in general. i do not try and downplay that, i also don't have a problem with it. i DO dislike those who may use abortion, repeatedly, as BC as some have said, but thankfully they are in the minority, and from my own pov i do not think such extremes should effect the rights of others to have access to this choice. i realize many will disagree with me there, and i am a-ok with that.

if an abortion occurs within the first 12 weeks, as 89% of abortions do (the last time i ever checked stats, anyway)....i take zero issue with the *reasons* behind a woman's choice. you might find that arbitrary, i do not. if there is no central nervous system, no sensory perception, i have no issue with it - the fetus cannot feel pain, no of itself, so i firmly believe it is the woman's choice . late-term abortions are another story, but again, those are regulated for medical need, so that too.....i can understand. while i overall agree the idea of multiple abortions is NOT desirable, as a supporter of choice, a believer in the right to legal abortion, yea....i have to accept what i may deem unfavorable b/c i believe in the woman's right to choose in the greater scheme.....and if i am not that woman, it is her right, not mine. again, i realize many may disagree with me....i respect that, and i am also thankful that as it stands, it is still up to the woman to choose.


that said, i would LOVE to see the 'need' for abortion disappear, as i think anyone would. i thin a great part of that is removal of the STIGMAS against those who engage in consentual sex, whether underage or not, those who do so outside of marriage, etc.....and that EASE of ACCESS and COST of birth control, including the morning after pill.....again, w/o stigma.....were more readily available to all. and there, where i think we can make great strides...i also realize i am dreaming quite a bit there. it is VERY difficult for any of us to remove our personally held beliefs from say, our family members, let alone society. but yea, i can dream....

ajedigecko

damn people lighten up..............i discuss topics with a point of view of "i like to hear your opinion". i understand abortion will never go away, wether it is legal or illegal, it is going to happen.

i have stated this before.

if my wife were raped..........we both are in agreement that abortion would take place.
if a test came back positive that the unborn child would have severe troubles maintaining life without medical intervention.......that would be a difficult decision.

at no point do i think abortion should be completely outlawed...........i am a firm believer in accountability though.

ajedigecko

one more thing..........i have never met anyone who has changed their mind on this topic.

has anyone here met someone who has changed their mind?

jlew24asu

ajedigecko wrote:

one more thing..........i have never met anyone who has changed their mind on this topic.

has anyone here met someone who has changed their mind?

I'm still in the process of deciding. I have a hard time telling either side they are wrong. personally, I hate abortion as birth control, but think its ok if the mother is in danger or rape. I also struggle with choosing a side based on being a man. I'll never face dealing with a law that invades my body.

but what you said above could not be more true. abortion will never go away, legal or not.

ajedigecko

jlew24asu wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

one more thing..........i have never met anyone who has changed their mind on this topic.

has anyone here met someone who has changed their mind?

I'm still in the process of deciding. I have a hard time telling either side they are wrong. personally, I hate abortion as birth control, but think its ok if the mother is in danger or rape. I also struggle with choosing a side based on being a man. I'll never face dealing with a law that invades my body.

but what you said above could not be more true. abortion will never go away, legal or not.

another thought came to me while riding today.........i wonder what the crime rate would be today if all of the abortions did not take place?

would crime be higher due to the amount of people raising unwanted/unloved kids? i do not know, i am only forming my opinion based on what little experience i have had with people who say "i wish i would have never had kids"

those people seem filled with anger/hate.

Jeanwah

ajedigecko wrote:

one more thing..........i have never met anyone who has changed their mind on this topic.

has anyone here met someone who has changed their mind?

this is the very reason I won't debate abortion. It's such a personal topic, that you literally cannot change a person's mind on it.

Nor should anyone ever interfere with anyone's decision when faced with this serious situation. It's that personal. Everyone is at liberty to set bounds for themselves and with their God(s). Otherwise, it's no one's business.

_

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

I admit, I dont know what IUDs are or exactly how every form of hormonal contraception works in a women.

If you're by chance gettin' any, it would be responsible of you to learn about all these things (especially before passing judgement on anyone else's level of responsibility).... just sayin'.

I know enough and practice enough safe sex as well as at the point in my life and relationship to accept the consequences of a pregnancy. as if that was any of your business, but thanks for your concern

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing... I can see your future already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoHYkHSIBDs

_

pandora wrote:

I saw a bumper sticker the other day
"its not a choice its a child"
I've been pro-choice all my life and and also a very young girl in trouble when abortion was just starting to be legalized and yes i took advantage of that which today I'm not proud of and even now think often of.
i would just like everyone to think about that bumper sticker
most especially women who are having multiple abortions because that is wrong and very avoidable
and its something with a lifetime of revelation that they will regret one day.

Do you think those bumper stickers prevent women from having abortions or just add salt to the wounds of (possible) regret?