"Let us hereby be reminded, before sadness and frustration overwhelm once more: Proposition 8 and its ilk are merely the last, fitful gasps of a long-dying ideology, markers of a certain kind of sad, conservative desperation. They are the final clawings and scrapings of a reactionary worldview that attempts to outlaw and punish all it cannot, will not understand. Same as it ever was, really."
no matter what one believes about gay marriage....the people of California voted...and sometimes democracy doesn't always go the way one wants it to go...
I'm sorry, but no.
The Majority should NEVER be given the chance to vote away the rights of a minority. I mean.. they came for me first... are they coming for you next? Don't think it can't happen. Because now they have a legal precedence that they can force a vote to remove ANY rights at all. From anyone in the minority.
You think they chose us homos first by accident? 'Cause they didn't. This is just the beginning. They're not going to stop here.
save the drama...you act as if gays have been tossed in the gulag...
the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....
this is just a stupid issue for both sides to really care about...personally, I'm upset that I can't have a Civil Union unless it's with the member of the same sex...I want to entire a Civil Union with my girlfriend but the state won't let me....oh gawwwd, what am I going to do....???? how can I live like this, my rights are being denied.... :evil:
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
I don't care for marriage and the importance so many seem to place on it. And so many of us that post here on AMT seem to be more of the unconventional types so maybe this view of marriage as being so important doesn't hit home for some of us. But that doesn't change the fact that, in our current society, marriage is still viewed as the ultimate show of love, maturity and commitment that a couple can act upon. That is the reality of the situation no matter how silly I might personally view marriage. So yes, it seems very unfair to only allow one certain type of couple the right to marriage while excluding others who would like to get married for all the same reasons straight people choose to get married but are denied simply because they don't fit the mold of acceptance to do so. Just ask any married person about the memories of their wedding day, the importance of taking their vows before their personal God and what their marriage means to them then you'll find all the reasons why it's simply wrong to deny any couple in love the ability to engage in the same act, with all the same meaning and importance that society still associates with it. If a civil union is the same then why have it and call it something different. It's not the same and we know it thus gay couples are being discriminated against by denying them the right based solely on their personal choices which of course harm no one and have no negative effects on society.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
So why can't the government change that to allow people to file jointly with one other person of their choosing and not call it marriage?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
So why can't the government change that to allow people to file jointly with one other person of their choosing and not call it marriage?
lol fine by me (and I'm sure with gay people too) what do you want to call it? civil union? great who cares what its called. its still not allowed.
I don't care for marriage and the importance so many seem to place on it. And so many of us that post here on AMT seem to be more of the unconventional types so maybe this view of marriage as being so important doesn't hit home for some of us. But that doesn't change the fact that, in our current society, marriage is still viewed as the ultimate show of love, maturity and commitment that a couple can act upon. That is the reality of the situation no matter how silly I might personally view marriage. So yes, it seems very unfair to only allow one certain type of couple the right to marriage while excluding others who would like to get married for all the same reasons straight people choose to get married but are denied simply because they don't fit the mold of acceptance to do so. Just ask any married person about the memories of their wedding day, the importance of taking their vows before their personal God and what their marriage means to them then you'll find all the reasons why it's simply wrong to deny any couple in love the ability to engage in the same act, with all the same meaning and importance that society still associates with it. If a civil union is the same then why have it and call it something different. It's not the same and we know it thus gay couples are being discriminated against by denying them the right based solely on their personal choices which of course harm no one and have no negative effects on society.
Preach it sister! Amen!
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.
the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....
what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?
This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."
I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).
The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.
And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.
the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....
what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?
This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."
I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).
The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.
And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.
Well, they're not.
more drama....
you know, during the commercials of the month long monster truck marathon (which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights") I saw folks rallying to vote against prop 8....to be honest, Grave Digger was on next so I didn't pay much attention...
I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...
as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...
or you can go to Iowa...
you have options...
I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P
the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....
what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?
This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."
I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).
The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.
And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.
Well, they're not.
more drama....
you know, during the commercials of the month long monster truck marathon (which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights") I saw folks rallying to vote against prop 8....to be honest, Grave Digger was on next so I didn't pay much attention...
I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...
as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...
or you can go to Iowa...
you have options...
I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P
Black people still had 'options' when they were forced to use separate public bathrooms, water fountains, etc....
They had the option to use the public restrooms assigned to them or go without. Just because they had 'options' doesn't make it any more right and it doesn't mean they weren't being discriminated against.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think were going to see more states pass Gay Marriage even if California never passes it. The supreme court ruled it's not a civil rights issue and they are right. But at least the gay community has options as far as moving to another state if they wanted to.
(which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights")
Um, it was a slag against the stereotypical straight male. And was supposed to be a joke. Guess my comedy doesn't translate to Straight very well. How am I supposed to know where you live?
I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...
My post wasn't directly solely at you. I'll try to make that a bit more clear this time.
as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...
Well if we were a straight couple, I'd be able to sponsor him into a America and he could become a citizen which is what we both want. But because we're a gay couple, we live under the constant specter that his work Visa could be refused and we'd have to move back to Canada, destroying the life that we've set up here. Just "becoming" a citizen isn't that easy. Unless you're straight and married, of course.
And besides, the power of attorney papers you can get written up by a lawyer don't cross state lines. So if I was to come visit you in the south (hey, it could happen) we'd be totally without any protection at all should he get hit by a Monster Truck.
or you can go to Iowa...
Not a lot of work for film makers (like me) or high-end residential architects (like him) in Iowa. And I thought America was supposed to be the land of the free? Is that only where sanctioned by the government?
you have options...
but not as many as you do, and that's just not fair.
I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P
I agree. "Separate but Equal" has never worked in America. Although if you want the rights of marriage without being married, you can have a "Common Law Marriage." (Sadly, I don't get that option either).
If, however, you want to fight for the rights to have a civil union, I'm willing to help you fight for that right. I don't like injustice. So sign me up.
The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
(which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights")
Um, it was a slag against the stereotypical straight male. And was supposed to be a joke. Guess my comedy doesn't translate to Straight very well. How am I supposed to know where you live?
I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...
My post wasn't directly solely at you. I'll try to make that a bit more clear this time.
as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...
Well if we were a straight couple, I'd be able to sponsor him into a America and he could become a citizen which is what we both want. But because we're a gay couple, we live under the constant specter that his work Visa could be refused and we'd have to move back to Canada, destroying the life that we've set up here. Just "becoming" a citizen isn't that easy. Unless you're straight and married, of course.
And besides, the power of attorney papers you can get written up by a lawyer don't cross state lines. So if I was to come visit you in the south (hey, it could happen) we'd be totally without any protection at all should he get hit by a Monster Truck.
or you can go to Iowa...
Not a lot of work for film makers (like me) or high-end residential architects (like him) in Iowa. And I thought America was supposed to be the land of the free? Is that only where sanctioned by the government?
you have options...
but not as many as you do, and that's just not fair.
I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P
I agree. "Separate but Equal" has never worked in America. Although if you want the rights of marriage without being married, you can have a "Common Law Marriage." (Sadly, I don't get that option either).
If, however, you want to fight for the rights to have a civil union, I'm willing to help you fight for that right. I don't like injustice. So sign me up.
my friend, you make many good points, of which I can't argue...
good luck with your quest for Marriage, but be careful what you ask for, it's not all it's cracked up to be...
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
que?
:?
:?:
the only thing about it that isn't *working* is the fact that the right of marriage is not afforded to homosexual couples...otherwise, how is legal marriage not *working* exactly......? and - again - just b/c you seem to think that the right to marry is a privilege and not a right and that it is already in existence for all, which truly, is a crock......again, doesn't make it so. once upon a time it was illegal for interracial couples to marry....now it isn't.....so yes, once again, the rights of marriage need to be broadened to include homosexuals b/c they too are 2 consenting adults being discriminated not b/c of the color of their skin, but their sexual orientation....but still, discrimination pure and simple. you don't want to see it as such, fine......
my friend, you make many good points, of which I can't argue...
good luck with your quest for Marriage, but be careful what you ask for, it's not all it's cracked up to be...
trust me, I know...
Well we've been together for 17 years and I know that after about 2, the nagging about leaving the socks on the floor gets old. Maybe one day we can have a beer about laugh about how we really aren't that different after all.
And thanks for the wish of luck. Looks like we're still going to need it.
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
huh? lack of government involvement if you will, is what's not working. and by that, I mean not allowing gays to marry. and all adults do NOT have the privilege to marry. marriage is ONLY allowed (legally) between a man and woman. gay people do not have the same rights.
not gonna lie buddy, but you seem awfully confused about the situation.
Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)
Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.
The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?
Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)
Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.
The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?
excuse my ignorance, but you and your partner can have joint bank accounts? what are the tax implications?
Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)
Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.
The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?
exactly.
i always love that 'argument'...like it's a *plus*. :roll:
obviously if it were and what people wanted, they wouldn't be fighting for the right to marry, eh?
i know my bro-in-law is anti-marriage, so he and and his long-term GF, of over 20+ years...jumped thru a million legal loops, spent a good amount of $$$...to co-own a home, make each other their beneficiaries, protect their assets, etc, etc.....and then they did split, and it's actually MORE complicated b/c they are not married to get things rolling and seperate, etc. obviously, most people go into marriage or long-term relations hoping they won't end, thus why they join together in the first place......so yea, the whole 'it makes it easier'.....is only true perhaps if you don't own one single thing of value together, and sure...if you don't actually want to share your material goods, as well as health care decisions, etc. you definitely seem to know even MORe about all the rights marriage affords, especially since you know exactly what not being married has you lacking......and absolutely, imo, marriage is about making it *easier* in a sense to share your life, fully, every aspect, that you want to, both good and bad...
excuse my ignorance, but you and your partner can have joint bank accounts? what are the tax implications?
I mean, you can have a join bank account with anyone. The motorcycles are in my name because he was newer to America and we'd have gotten a higher interest rate if he was on the title. Go figure.
You're taxed on what you make.. not on what you have. So having join bank accounts isn't really that big a deal. Maybe a bit more paperwork come tax time. Not even sure about that, though.
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
So is schooling... it's a privilege, not a right. But it is not acceptable to offer that privilege to some and then deny it to others. Separate but equal is inherently wrong and unequal. You can't say blacks were wrong to whine about segregation because they had the same privilege of school attendance, it was just a different building. That is why gay marriage bans or civil unions aren't enough. Would you be ok with denying all gay people the option to attend a public school, on the basis that school is a privilege not a right?
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
So is schooling... it's a privilege, not a right. But it is not acceptable to offer that privilege to some and then deny it to others. Separate but equal is inherently wrong and unequal. You can't say blacks were wrong to whine about segregation because they had the same privilege of school attendance, it was just a different building. That is why gay marriage bans or civil unions aren't enough. Would you be ok with denying all gay people the option to attend a public school, on the basis that school is a privilege not a right?
(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)
No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.
Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)
No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.
Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.
Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?
Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.
(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)
No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.
Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.
Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?
Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)
No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.
Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.
Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?
Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.
I'm simply saying we all have the same rights currently. We can all marry someone from the opposite sex.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
But I read a great article in the SFGate..
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1
"Let us hereby be reminded, before sadness and frustration overwhelm once more: Proposition 8 and its ilk are merely the last, fitful gasps of a long-dying ideology, markers of a certain kind of sad, conservative desperation. They are the final clawings and scrapings of a reactionary worldview that attempts to outlaw and punish all it cannot, will not understand. Same as it ever was, really."
save the drama...you act as if gays have been tossed in the gulag...
the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....
this is just a stupid issue for both sides to really care about...personally, I'm upset that I can't have a Civil Union unless it's with the member of the same sex...I want to entire a Civil Union with my girlfriend but the state won't let me....oh gawwwd, what am I going to do....???? how can I live like this, my rights are being denied.... :evil:
My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.
Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
So why can't the government change that to allow people to file jointly with one other person of their choosing and not call it marriage?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
lol fine by me (and I'm sure with gay people too) what do you want to call it? civil union? great who cares what its called. its still not allowed.
Preach it sister! Amen!
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?
This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."
I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).
The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.
And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.
Well, they're not.
more drama....
you know, during the commercials of the month long monster truck marathon (which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights") I saw folks rallying to vote against prop 8....to be honest, Grave Digger was on next so I didn't pay much attention...
I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...
as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...
or you can go to Iowa...
you have options...
I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P
Black people still had 'options' when they were forced to use separate public bathrooms, water fountains, etc....
They had the option to use the public restrooms assigned to them or go without. Just because they had 'options' doesn't make it any more right and it doesn't mean they weren't being discriminated against.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Um, it was a slag against the stereotypical straight male. And was supposed to be a joke. Guess my comedy doesn't translate to Straight very well. How am I supposed to know where you live?
My post wasn't directly solely at you. I'll try to make that a bit more clear this time.
Well if we were a straight couple, I'd be able to sponsor him into a America and he could become a citizen which is what we both want. But because we're a gay couple, we live under the constant specter that his work Visa could be refused and we'd have to move back to Canada, destroying the life that we've set up here. Just "becoming" a citizen isn't that easy. Unless you're straight and married, of course.
And besides, the power of attorney papers you can get written up by a lawyer don't cross state lines. So if I was to come visit you in the south (hey, it could happen) we'd be totally without any protection at all should he get hit by a Monster Truck.
Not a lot of work for film makers (like me) or high-end residential architects (like him) in Iowa. And I thought America was supposed to be the land of the free? Is that only where sanctioned by the government?
but not as many as you do, and that's just not fair.
I agree. "Separate but Equal" has never worked in America. Although if you want the rights of marriage without being married, you can have a "Common Law Marriage." (Sadly, I don't get that option either).
If, however, you want to fight for the rights to have a civil union, I'm willing to help you fight for that right. I don't like injustice. So sign me up.
And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.
Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
my friend, you make many good points, of which I can't argue...
good luck with your quest for Marriage, but be careful what you ask for, it's not all it's cracked up to be...
trust me, I know...
que?
:?
:?:
the only thing about it that isn't *working* is the fact that the right of marriage is not afforded to homosexual couples...otherwise, how is legal marriage not *working* exactly......? and - again - just b/c you seem to think that the right to marry is a privilege and not a right and that it is already in existence for all, which truly, is a crock......again, doesn't make it so. once upon a time it was illegal for interracial couples to marry....now it isn't.....so yes, once again, the rights of marriage need to be broadened to include homosexuals b/c they too are 2 consenting adults being discriminated not b/c of the color of their skin, but their sexual orientation....but still, discrimination pure and simple. you don't want to see it as such, fine......
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Well we've been together for 17 years and I know that after about 2, the nagging about leaving the socks on the floor gets old. Maybe one day we can have a beer about laugh about how we really aren't that different after all.
And thanks for the wish of luck. Looks like we're still going to need it.
huh? lack of government involvement if you will, is what's not working. and by that, I mean not allowing gays to marry. and all adults do NOT have the privilege to marry. marriage is ONLY allowed (legally) between a man and woman. gay people do not have the same rights.
not gonna lie buddy, but you seem awfully confused about the situation.
Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.
The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?
excuse my ignorance, but you and your partner can have joint bank accounts? what are the tax implications?
exactly.
i always love that 'argument'...like it's a *plus*. :roll:
obviously if it were and what people wanted, they wouldn't be fighting for the right to marry, eh?
i know my bro-in-law is anti-marriage, so he and and his long-term GF, of over 20+ years...jumped thru a million legal loops, spent a good amount of $$$...to co-own a home, make each other their beneficiaries, protect their assets, etc, etc.....and then they did split, and it's actually MORE complicated b/c they are not married to get things rolling and seperate, etc. obviously, most people go into marriage or long-term relations hoping they won't end, thus why they join together in the first place......so yea, the whole 'it makes it easier'.....is only true perhaps if you don't own one single thing of value together, and sure...if you don't actually want to share your material goods, as well as health care decisions, etc. you definitely seem to know even MORe about all the rights marriage affords, especially since you know exactly what not being married has you lacking......and absolutely, imo, marriage is about making it *easier* in a sense to share your life, fully, every aspect, that you want to, both good and bad...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I mean, you can have a join bank account with anyone. The motorcycles are in my name because he was newer to America and we'd have gotten a higher interest rate if he was on the title. Go figure.
You're taxed on what you make.. not on what you have. So having join bank accounts isn't really that big a deal. Maybe a bit more paperwork come tax time. Not even sure about that, though.
So is schooling... it's a privilege, not a right. But it is not acceptable to offer that privilege to some and then deny it to others. Separate but equal is inherently wrong and unequal. You can't say blacks were wrong to whine about segregation because they had the same privilege of school attendance, it was just a different building. That is why gay marriage bans or civil unions aren't enough. Would you be ok with denying all gay people the option to attend a public school, on the basis that school is a privilege not a right?
(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)
No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.
Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?
Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm simply saying we all have the same rights currently. We can all marry someone from the opposite sex.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
but that is so completely irrelevant to this debate. dont u get that?