why do you believe in God or...

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't know what you are saying :(

What part?

Ahnimus · August 2007

angelica wrote:

What part?

It just doesn't seem to address my point. Besides your saying that being in-line with evolution makes it impossible for you to be wrong. But what if I consider myself to be in-line with evolution and I disagree with you? Then it goes back to both of us having subjective opinions.

soulsinging · August 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

let's go back a little bit... and i'm typing this very slowly just so you know.... (i'm really laughing at your comments, not in a bad way tho... i enjoy chatting with you)

i've already told you... what christ came to accomplish was rescue humanity from sin... christ, being the only one who overcame sin and death, delivered us from condemnation. he already did, all of us. it's only up to YOU to believe it and it's primarily up to YOU to believe that sin no longer lives but Christ in you.

going back, originally, you said that how is it that God would forgive a murderer simply cause he believed in jesus and how would he condemn a jew who devouted his life to giving to charity (or something like that) simply cause he didn't accept jesus??

my response was that every single individual is under the condemnation of sin. christ came to deliver us from that condemnation. so it's not becuase you're a jew that you go to hell, or a muslim, or whatever.... it's simply because of the state of corruption that you're in. i don't know... do you still see a contradiction somewhere? help me out...

when you said this:

"God's love is and so is His love strong enough to forgive a devout jew who devoted helping others, just so long as he realizes that is body is under a state of corruption and he needs to be cleansed by the blood of jesus"

i thought you were saying even jews can get to heaven becos god has the power to forgive them. but i read now that you're saying he doesn't have the power to forgive them, there's nothing he can do to help a jew who devotes his life to charity unless said jew starts praising jesus before he dies. so nevermind, i misread it the first time. god's still the vain little prick i thought

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It just doesn't seem to address my point. Besides your saying that being in-line with evolution makes it impossible for you to be wrong. But what if I consider myself to be in-line with evolution and I disagree with you? Then it goes back to both of us having subjective opinions.

Are you going to tell me that you are in line with evolution while you practice unhealthy eating and addictions?

Subjective opinions that are not supported in reality show a conflict rather than harmony with life.

Disharmony is it's own situation. By it's nature it is not resolved.

deadnothingbetter · August 2007

soulsinging wrote:

god's still the vain little prick i thought

but it ain't his fault we messed up... and it ain't his fault we choose not to accept that.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, I hear you. I only argue with Angelica's delivery of ideas. But I shouldn't. I guess the words just rub me the wrong way.

I'm completely at peace with our "conflict". I think you are, too. It's very natural for you and I to rub each other the wrong way. It inspires creative energy and growth between us.

whispering hands · August 2007

belief is a choice that's decided by the experiences one come acrossed in life,
some experience great short comings that make them question a greater existance, while others experience a sweet life that tells them they must have some one looking out for them. But what blows my mind... is those peeps that bleieve that there is a higher power, no matter how low the tide. Those are the ones we need to take notes from, they have a secret; belief is a gift. cause it gives you a hope, a faith that nothing else can offer.. I believe there's something out there beyond us. Think about it.. we EVOLVED.... that's a pretty intricate design.. at least I think so. Just my two cents

Collin · August 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

but it ain't his fault we messed up... and it ain't his fault we choose not to accept that.

True, it's not his fault we messed up. And he can't forgive that. Like soulsinging said god's a vain little prick and probably a liar too.

Anon · August 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i never murdered any children...

btw, if someone murdered a loved one of yours, is your love not strong enough to forgive them?

Sorry, i don't get this. Who are you suggesting be forgiven? The murderer or your God?

deadnothingbetter wrote:

basically, if you believe in Christ and follow his words, then all amount of goodness shall be accomplished in your life. every step that you take will be graceful and righteous. or at least that's what the bible promises.

God Will Command His Angels to Protect You Wherever You Go
Psalm 91: 11

Just sometimes the Angels get lost and forget some people.

soulsinging · August 2007

deadnothingbetter wrote:

but it ain't his fault we messed up... and it ain't his fault we choose not to accept that.

it IS his fault that we only have one way out of it. if god is all-powerful, he doesn't need to funnel us through jesus to forgive us. he could just do it. so either god is NOT all-powerful, or he made the CHOICE to set up an arbitrary test he knew would deny billions of the children he "loves," many of whom are wonderful and deserving people, the chance to be with him in heaven solely becos they chose other, equally spiritual religions that their parents, family, and loved ones all shared with them. he knowingly abandoned billions to damnation by creating a jesus clause that is nothing but a technicality. doesn't seem very loving to me.

Collin · August 2007

soulsinging wrote:

it IS his fault that we only have one way out of it. if god is all-powerful, he doesn't need to funnel us through jesus to forgive us. he could just do it. so either god is NOT all-powerful, or he made the CHOICE to set up an arbitrary test he knew would deny billions of the children he "loves," many of whom are wonderful and deserving people, the chance to be with him in heaven solely becos they chose other, equally spiritual religions that their parents, family, and loved ones all shared with them. he knowingly abandoned billions to damnation by creating a jesus clause that is nothing but a technicality. doesn't seem very loving to me.

Yep, god is a liar.

Either he can forgive them but doesn't, which would be weird since he claims he loves them and when you love people unconditionally, you forgive them.

Or he can't forgive them, but that would be a lie too because he claims he's all-powerful.

chopitdown · August 2007

Collin wrote:

Yep, god is a liar.

Either he can forgive them but doesn't, which would be weird since he claims he loves them and when you love people unconditionally, you forgive them.

Or he can't forgive them, but that would be a lie too because he claims he's all-powerful.

God would be a liar if he said that you need to believe in Jesus and you didn't. One way to reconcile his not forgiving people is that in God's love he gives us exactly what we ask for and exactly what we want. If you accept him you will go to heaven. If you reject him and want nothing to do with him, in his perfect justice and perfect love, he gives you what you want. I won't dare say what accepting him means. I'd say it's easier to say what rejection of Him is. The Bible says explicitly I am the way, the truth...no one comes to the father but by me (meaning Jesus). But the bible also eludes to natural revelation etc... and God knows the heart of mankind. There are characteristics of God and Love is not the only Characteristic...but it is usually the one that causes the most inner struggle as is evidenced by a thread that is some 30 pages long.

angelica · August 2007

Kenny Olav wrote:

nice ad for Kabbalah books.

but i don't know if I should buy them because "Since the Zohar was written, most Kabbalistic works assume that Jewish and non-Jewish souls are fundamentally different. While all human souls emanate from God, the Zohar posits that at least part of the Gentile soul emanates from the "left side" of the Sefirotic structure and that non-Jews therefore have a dark or demonic aspect to them that is absent in Jews.

Later Kabbalistic works build and elaborate on this idea. The Hasidic work, the Tanya, fuses this idea with Judah ha-Levi's medieval philosophical argument for the uniqueness of the Jewish soul, in order to argue that Jews have an additional level of soul that other humans do not possess."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabalah

I missed this last night.

I personally simply ignore any thoughts, or perceptions about separation from ANY discipline in order to get to the heart, soul and truth of the matter. Separation is purely about ego and agendas. I also was not fond of Kabbalah advertising, but, hey, that's why they created this video.

I was blown away, though, that they conceptualized reality amazingly. They conceptualized the Truth--and life outside the cave--very clearly and simply.

The mystic Truths all stand, and are eerily similar. What is not true falls away.

cornnifer · August 2007

soulsinging wrote:

how have i lost that one? my point was that you are no more likely to convert to a minority religion like islam is here in the US than they are to convert to christianity. just becos they might know it exists hardly is a compelling reason for them to convert. and i firmly believe that had you been born there, you'd be on here right now preaching how we all need to believe confucious or suffer the consequences. the only reason you're a christian who believes in jesus is becos you were born into a culture where that was common and a large part of your raising and heritage. islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. people don't convert to christianity... they are born into it. why do you think that is? a better story? more truthful? cultural?

You'd be wrong about me. You are wrong about me. Even in your infinite, all understanding, unparalleled knowledge of the Christian faith and theology, you are wrong about me. i won't use this forum to give my full personal testimony. i've already stated i wasn't born a Christian (no one is. CHRISTIANITY IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT A RELIGION). In fact throughout my formative years i openly and, rather vocally rejected it. i railed against it pretty hard. None of my friends and family members were Christians. i personally came to an acceptance of Christianity at about age 20.
Its pretty safe to say that the 28 millon + Christians in Red China were not "Born into Christianity either".
i can't explain to you any clearer than that so i won' try.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

You don't see the inherent paradox?

Here it is, Ahnimus: When we are perceiving through the black box, we can develop a channel through to the REALITY. Remember the white spot that develops and that connects us to the realm of REALITY? And yes, this channel, this "white spot" is a perceptive mechanism in the brain. The black box does not refer to the brain. It refers to the ego, or our imprisoned sense of self. This white spot is like an antennae that allows us to see out of the box. It provides us the "inner voice" of inSight. And as we hone this voice/vision it channels more and more from reality. In my case, I broke through to the other side. And I was very ill and riddled with addiction, disorder, poor health etc. And I used information from that channel to begin clarifying all the disorder, and realigning/reprogramming my brain to a more natural and aligned nature, as opposed to the programmed me-me-me aspects of my being. And this process is perpetual. The nature of 3-d life is positive/negative. I still reprogam all the time, by listening to my inSights that are about "bestowing" rather than "mememe" and receiving. In short, when I'm faced with a conflict--ANY conflict, I focus on rising "above" the ego. Therefore I align with evolution/Truth and Reality and my choices reflect that, as well as the consequences of amazing depth and beauty I also experience. I've tapped into and perceive the real reality, and therefore the ONLY choice is to be life affirming. And anytime I have conflict, I know I have non-life-affirming patterns to overcome. After a while, and for sure now, although I'm human and flawed like anyone, I've trained myself to be predominantly aligned with evolution, affirming, reality and the principles of embracing, personal growth and "bestowal".

Physicist David Bohm stuff is similar, too, because he talks about using this inSight--this channel to the implicate order which is always enfolding everything that is explicate--to rise above our usual flaws and programming in order to be realistic, rather than ego-centered. Oh, and psychological healing is about the same, too--alignment with the SELF rather than the self.

deadnothingbetter · August 2007

soulsinging wrote:

it IS his fault that we only have one way out of it. if god is all-powerful, he doesn't need to funnel us through jesus to forgive us. he could just do it. so either god is NOT all-powerful, or he made the CHOICE to set up an arbitrary test he knew would deny billions of the children he "loves," many of whom are wonderful and deserving people, the chance to be with him in heaven solely becos they chose other, equally spiritual religions that their parents, family, and loved ones all shared with them. he knowingly abandoned billions to damnation by creating a jesus clause that is nothing but a technicality. doesn't seem very loving to me.

did you forget the part I told you we had a choice? and how God doesn't interfere with our choices? so since we believed in the devil's lie we've given our power to him and once we're under the condemnation of sin the devil is in control over us. in God's all-powerful and all-knowing plan he designed a man to save us from that.... jesus was the dood. all we gotta do is believe in him... that's it.

God can't just do it because he CANNOT interfere in our choices that we make. if jesus were never there to "funnel" us through we'd of never had access to God. you say God is powerful enough to do just that... no, because again, he can't force us against our will. it's like making a desperate move from God's part, "i'll show you that i exist... and you will believe that i am real no matter what!" all while not even mentioning the fact that God's holiness is too powerful for us to contain.... see, in the bible, God wanted to do just what you are saying he should do. that happened in the case with the Israelites, but the israelites were to afraid because his majesty was too great for them. when you see moses go up to the mountain his face would get older because God's majesty was too powerful for his corrupted body to contain. he could've just snapped his fingers and say, "bam, that's it... you guys are back with me again and no longer slaves to sin." but that would be interfering in our choice and based on our choices we chose earthly and vain things... the corrupted things. so obviously that wasn't going to work out cause god wasn't going to allow anything corrupted to enter heaven and in addition we'd of probably disintegrated or dissolved or something.

you say he set up this arbitrary test..... it doesn't seem like a test to me. all that God requires is that you have faith. not giving blood, not doing any labor, not signing your life away, not dedicating yourself to an organized religion.... just simply believe.

no it isn't his fault... that's why you think he's a "prick" becuase you don't understand the message.

deadnothingbetter · August 2007

Pj_Gurl wrote:

Sorry, i don't get this. Who are you suggesting be forgiven? The murderer or your God?

the murderer.... i was asking a rhetorical question. if someone murdered your loved one would you be able to forgive?

God Will Command His Angels to Protect You Wherever You Go
Psalm 91: 11

Just sometimes the Angels get lost and forget some people.

i don't know what you mean by it.

deadnothingbetter · August 2007

Collin wrote:

True, it's not his fault we messed up. And he can't forgive that. Like soulsinging said god's a vain little prick and probably a liar too.

well, at least you accept that it's not his fault. but yes he can and already has forgiven it.... all you gotta do is believe in jesus.

if he's a liar, maybe or maybe not... but all i know is the bible makes these promises and all it asks is that you have faith. i, myself, have faith in it.

Ahnimus · August 2007

angelica wrote:

Here it is, Ahnimus: When we are perceiving through the black box, we can develop a channel through to the REALITY. Remember the white spot that develops and that connects us to the realm of REALITY? And yes, this channel, this "white spot" is a perceptive mechanism in the brain. The black box does not refer to the brain. It refers to the ego, or our imprisoned sense of self. This white spot is like an antennae that allows us to see out of the box. It provides us the "inner voice" of inSight. And as we hone this voice/vision it channels more and more from reality. In my case, I broke through to the other side. And I was very ill and riddled with addiction, disorder, poor health etc. And I used information from that channel to begin clarifying all the disorder, and realigning/reprogramming my brain to a more natural and aligned nature, as opposed to the programmed me-me-me aspects of my being. And this process is perpetual. The nature of 3-d life is positive/negative. I still reprogam all the time, by listening to my inSights that are about "bestowing" rather than "mememe" and receiving. In short, when I'm faced with a conflict--ANY conflict, I focus on rising "above" the ego. Therefore I align with evolution/Truth and Reality and my choices reflect that, as well as the consequences of amazing depth and beauty I also experience. I've tapped into and perceive the real reality, and therefore the ONLY choice is to be life affirming. And anytime I have conflict, I know I have non-life-affirming patterns to overcome. After a while, and for sure now, although I'm human and flawed like anyone, I've trained myself to be predominantly aligned with evolution, affirming, reality and the principles of embracing, personal growth and "bestowal".

Physicist David Bohm stuff is similar, too, because he talks about using this inSight--this channel to the implicate order which is always enfolding everything that is explicate--to rise above our usual flaws and programming in order to be realistic, rather than ego-centered. Oh, and psychological healing is about the same, too--alignment with the SELF rather than the self.

Some find satan that very same way.

But, evolution is all about "Me". Survival of the fittest. So if you were to truly "align" yourself with evolution, you'd be doing just the opposite.

callen · August 2007

chopitdown wrote:

If you accept him you will go to heaven. . The Bible says explicitly I am the way, the truth...no one comes to the father but by me (meaning Jesus). But the bible also eludes to natural revelation etc... and God knows the heart of mankind. There are characteristics of God and Love is not the only Characteristic...but it is usually the one that causes the most inner struggle as is evidenced by a thread that is some 30 pages long.

So 20% of the worlds population consider themselves Christians.....so that means God will be sending the rest, 80% straight to hell.....he knows they're not converting...he knows they're not "innocents". Now why would god do that?

why do you believe in God or...

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