why do you believe in God or...

gue_barium

deadnothingbetter wrote:

read Genesis 6:6... right before the flood... it reads "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

I don't know what those baptists were teaching you but the Bible points very clear that God himself was not entirely happy with how things turned out.

I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is. What I am saying is that even though God is powerful and he could interfere in our lives if he wanted to by his own will, he doesn't.

So if he was all-knowing why didn't he set things up in a way that would work well? I don't know... I can't answer that question. I've never created a universe so I don't know what is a better way to create one. All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."

Aww, c'mon. Create a universe.

deadnothingbetter

gue_barium wrote:

Aww, c'mon. Create a universe.

hey, sorry man, i just couldn't answer that question.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is.
...
All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."

To me this sounds like a contradiction.

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

Exactly, why did he?

The more I read about the christian god here, the more I think he's a jerk.

1) He creates us and loved us, supposedly, unconditionally.

yes.

2) He creates evil (because he is the creator of everything)

yes.

3) He gives us free will and knows we'll choose evil, that's how he made us.

no. he didn't make us that way. he designed us with a will. he didn't create us by default that we would choose evil.

4) Then because we choose evil (which he created and which he knew we would choose) we messed up. Messed up according to his rules, which he could change.

you're simplifying the concept. yes God knew everything. but he didn't purposely create us this way so he could play around with us, like pearl jam's "all god's dice". the bible claims he had a purpose, but his purpose didn't work out so clearly unlike he expected... and it was something that he couldn't do about. point in case, again, our very own will. yes, he changed the rules, but that doesn't come until later when we see Jesus. when we messed up, we didn't mess up according to his rules, but according to the rules of sin and death. the knowledge of good AND evil, the nature that Lucifer had brought upon himself and by which he enstilled in ours when we believed in his lie.

5) He sends Jesus to save us yet he knows only about 25% of the people will get into heaven.

i don't know if you're referring to predestination, or maybe you're not referring to anything in particular.

i was getting into a concept once.. there is a scripture, i couldn't find it. that says when God judges the sinners, he says, "depart from me, for i did not know you." this got me thinking a bit, maybe God doesn't know who is or who isn't going to heaven or hell. maybe he doesn't even see the world as it is now because if he would he'd probably wanna destroy it like he did in the days of noah, but now all he worries about and all he sees is the church, the body of christ and those who believe in his name.

no, i don't believe that God picks and chooses who goes to heaven. that's our choice. that's my argument against predestination... he only predestined those who believe in his name to enter into his glory. other than that, he doesn't chose who enters or who doesn't. so in that sense, no he doesn't know if it will be 25% or 30% or 50%.

6) The other 75% of his children, whom he loves so much, will have to go to hell, because they chose that road (tell that to the people who dedicated their life to god except their god was named Allah and Jesus was just a prophet)

i agree. they're beliefs... everything is about beliefs. you've got your own. me telling them that jesus is the only way, is like them telling me that jesus is a prophet, and them telling me that jesus is a prophet is like you telling me that there is no god. it's the way it goes. as human beings, we have to accept that and live by it.

I'm thinking about a mother here with 6 children, she puts some freshly baked cookies on the table, tells the kids they cannot eat them. And she goes away or hides in the closet whatever. Then when all her kids eat the cookies, she kicks them out of her house.
Then she sends a dude to tell the kids to follow him and obey all these rules and then they will be let inside the house again, but at the same time about 5 other guys are telling a very similar story. Only two of the children pick the right guy. Then at the front door, she sees one of them has been naughty and kicks him out, but she lets the other one back into the house.
Not exactly what I'd call "love" but that's god simplified. This is child neglect and abuse, I think.

well about the last boy being kicked out because he's been "naughty" that's not how God works... that's just your interpretation simplifying God. and another thing if the mother set out that one dude to bring back the children they wouldn't have to follow all these rules... all they gotta do is believe that dude and follow him and he'll bring them back to the house. they won't have to worry about these "rules" cause the dude will fix it for them. even if they've been naughty, the dude will fix it for them...all they would have to do is believe in that dude, that's it.

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

To me this sounds like a contradiction.

how? i don't see a contradiction at all.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

how? i don't see a contradiction at all.

1)

deadnothingbetter wrote:

I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is.
...
All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."

2)

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the bible claims he had a purpose, but his purpose didn't work out so clearly unlike he expected... and it was something that he couldn't do about. point in case, again, our very own will.

3)

deadnothingbetter wrote:

God knows what you will do tomorrow but he's not going to change that.

4)

deadnothingbetter wrote:

since he placed a will in us to make our own decisions it's as if God's glory is perfected in our lives when we choose life, or the life that Christ came to show us. and basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden... or so it goes.

5)

deadnothingbetter wrote:

God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land...

I don't see how you can miss the contradictions.

God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise, which actually means his creation wasn't perfect. He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).

Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5). He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

I don't see how you can miss the contradictions.

God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise, which actually means his creation wasn't perfect. He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).

Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5). He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).

i've made it as simple as i could possibly do.

God creates everything. God knows everything. God gave us a will. God knew that we would fail him. God would not interfere in that choice, so he designed a plan to rescue us from the choices that we made. The choice was our belief in the serpent's lie. What is it that you're having a hard time understanding? Cos I really don't want to read into every single detail or i might misinterpret something that you say along the way.

from all that you posted above i really can't follow what it is you're having a hard time understanding. maybe your approach is a bit too complicated for me, i don't know.

deadnothingbetter

okay, read this instead.

Collin wrote:

God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise,which actually means his creation wasn't perfect.

the bible says that when he created everything he "saw that it was good." But when we disobeyed God, sin entered and separated us from God. it doesn't mean that we were already created imperfect. the fact that we have a will makes us like these little intricate beings perfectly designed as God planned. What he didn't plan was for us to die, or perish....

He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).

our will wasn't what destroyed us. the choice that we made was what destroyed us.

Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5).

yes, exactly. you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature. "lest any man be born again of the word and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." you have to be "cleansed", spiritually speaking. the only reason why jesus is the only way is because he's the only one who accomplished this "perfect" life and conquered sin and death.

He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).

his gift to us is Jesus Christ... because that's what death was asking for. so it's like a kid who is taken ransom and the killer is asking for "flesh and blood" in order for the child to be set free. God says, take this son instead.... knowingly that his son jesus would not fail him and would come out of it alive.

Collin

I'll read your above post first.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the bible says that when he created everything he "saw that it was good." But when we disobeyed God, sin entered and separated us from God. it doesn't mean that we were already created imperfect. the fact that we have a will makes us like these little intricate beings perfectly designed as God planned. What he didn't plan was for us to die, or perish....

How can god not know what will happen if he knows all? He created us perfect but he knew we'd choose the wrong path and that would make us imperfect.

That doesn't make sense, if you know everything, past, present and future you know your creation is imperfect. He knew the choice we would make, would make us imperfect, which means he knew he made us imperfect.

He might have designed us perfectly with free will, but he perfectly designed imperfect beings.

God knew that we would fail him. God would not interfere in that choice, so he designed a plan to rescue us from the choices that we made.

He designed a plan, which he knew only a few would follow, regardless of free will. It's the crappiest plan ever, if you ask me.

yes, exactly. you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature. "lest any man be born again of the word and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." you have to be "cleansed", spiritually speaking. the only reason why jesus is the only way is because he's the only one who accomplished this "perfect" life and conquered sin and death.

Ah, the crappy plan.

"you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature."

Yes, you can. He can allow you in, that is if he is indeed all-powerful. If he really can't, he isn't all-powerful, which would be a contradiction. And if he can but doesn't want to, it's also a contradiction because you said:

basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden...

That's what I don't get...

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

How can god not know what will happen if he knows all? He created us perfect but he knew we'd choose the wrong path and that would make us imperfect.

That doesn't make sense, if you know everything, past, present and future you know your creation is imperfect. He knew the choice we would make, would make us imperfect, which means he knew he made us imperfect.

He might have designed us perfectly with free will, but he perfectly designed imperfect beings.

i'm not following. if i know past, present and future i will know if my creation will fail but i have designed a plan to get them out of their mistake. explain how that makes them imperfect.

he perfectly designed perfect beings who later made a wrong choice thus putting them in an imperfect state. god didn't do this to his creation, we did it to ourselves. i've been saying that going on 500 posts. convince me that a God who knows everything and who is all-powerful defaults him as being responsible for our choices.

He designed a plan, which he knew only a few would follow, regardless of free will. It's the crappiest plan ever, if you ask me.

i'm not taking that away from you. you can think it's crappy if you'd like. all i know is it's the only resolution in this case. and besides even the "few" don't know it as a fact, they only profess to believe and have faith in it even though it might not be true afterall. that's faith.

Ah, the crappy plan.

"you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature."

Yes, you can. He can allow you in, that is if he is indeed all-powerful. If he really can't, he isn't all-powerful, which would be a contradiction. And if he can but doesn't want to, it's also a contradiction because you said:

basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden...

That's what I don't get...

again, God can't let you enter because of your unbelief. how is he going to force you to accept it? you have to accept that you are under sin... God will not allow sin to enter the kingdom. unfortunately, because you are an unbeliever, you don't want to believe in jesus. Jesus is the only guy who can justify your sins.

sure, he is all-powerful and he could force you against your will anytime he wanted to... but he's not gonna do that, cause he'd rather you do it in your own will. and again you'd still need to be cleansed from your sins. so i'm assuming that he would have to wash your sins away even against your will. it only depends if your attitude would then be willing to accept him by then.... cos bottom line is, he's not gonna have someone in heaven who doesn't wanna be there.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i'm not following. if i know past, present and future i will know if my creation will fail but i have designed a plan to get them out of their mistake. explain how that makes them imperfect.

he perfectly designed perfect beings who later made a wrong choice thus putting them in an imperfect state. god didn't do this to his creation, we did it to ourselves. i've been saying that going on 500 posts. convince me that a God who knows everything and who is all-powerful defaults him as being responsible for our choices.

Say you create a human. You design it perfectly and part of that perfect design is free will. Now, this perfect being chooses with its own free will, something you hadn't counted on, it chooses sin, it chooses to go against you...

But if you already know you creation will do this before you even make it, how can you say it's perfect?

I'm not saying he's responsible, per se. I'm saying he created imperfect beings.

again, God can't let you enter because of your unbelief.

Yes, he can. He's all-powerful.

how is he going to force you to accept it?

There are plenty of people who believe in god and won't get into heaven, all muslims for example, the jews as well and people who are not in a religion, like our friend soulsinging who has yet another relationship with god.

He doesn't have to force these people to believe, they already believe. So why can't he let them into heaven, he created the place, he makes the rules and he wants them there!

God can cleanse their sins like Jesus would (and it wouldn't be against their will).

you have to accept that you are under sin... God will not allow sin to enter the kingdom. unfortunately, because you are an unbeliever, you don't want to believe in jesus. Jesus is the only guy who can justify your sins.

Ah, I see. God isn't all-powerful. If he was he could justify your sins like Jesus can. I guess he can't, that's why he sends good, honest muslims, jews, people with personal relationships with god to hell so they can rot, even though he wants them in his kingdom.

cos bottom line is, he's not gonna have someone in heaven who doesn't wanna be there.

We're back at the conditional love, but I need to read that book chopitdown suggested before I make more comments about god's love.

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

Say you create a human. You design it perfectly and part of that perfect design is free will. Now, this perfect being chooses with its own free will, something you hadn't counted on, it chooses sin, it chooses to go against you...

But if you already know you creation will do this before you even make it, how can you say it's perfect?
I'm not saying he's responsible, per se. I'm saying he created imperfect beings.

i don't know. i don't know why you would end up creating it in the first place but just because he knew everyting it doesn't mean that he created imperfect beings. what i do know is that the bible says that, "we were created for the honor and glory of his praise."

Yes, he can. He's all-powerful.

no he can't. he doesn't impose his powers on your own mind. one thing i'll admit though, he is kinda greedy cause it also mentions, "I do not share my glory with anyone."

There are plenty of people who believe in god and won't get into heaven, all muslims for example, the jews as well and people who are not in a religion, like our friend soulsinging who has yet another relationship with god.

He doesn't have to force these people to believe, they already believe. So why can't he let them into heaven, he created the place, he makes the rules and he wants them there!

it's kinda like, "my god is bigger than your god." ok, that's fine. but my god doesn't force anybody to believe either. he gives them a choice.... and i'm sure taht even soulsinging's god would require you to believe in order to participate in whatever type of blessings it requires.... or i don't know. maybe not.

God can cleanse their sins like Jesus would (and it wouldn't be against their will).

see, that's the thing. jesus already forgave us of our sins... but you would still have to believe in jesus. technically, it's our unbelief that ultimately condemns us.

Ah, I see. God isn't all-powerful. If he was he could justify your sins like Jesus can. I guess he can't, that's why he sends good, honest muslims, jews, people with personal relationships with god to hell so they can rot, even though he wants them in his kingdom.

well, basically, again, their unbelief in Jesus, or for what he has already accomplished is what will ultimately condemn them. Like I already said, God has already forgiven our sins but it's only up to you to believe or not. and this is acquired when we come to jesus, cause he's the only one who'll make us understand it.

We're back at the conditional love, but I need to read that book chopitdown suggested before I make more comments about god's love.

well, go ahead. i bet he'll probably say the same thing and i wouldn't be surprised. cause we're not back to conditional love. we're still in the same spot. God has defeated sin through his son Jesus Christ when he was nailed on the cross despite our transgessions and failures so that he may redeem us. nothing's been challenged yet.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/jesustruck.jpg

sleeplikeadog

Alright, I read some of the posts in this thread(not all because that would take too long), and some people have interesting points. I would just like to share my thoughts on God, religion, etc.
I do believe in God. I don't have a religion, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God(though possible, I somehow don't think so), and I don't believe any religion is wrong in their beliefs.
I think that all religions, whether they know it or not, all have the same God. The native americans worshiped the sun, earth, animals, etc, which is all nature. Which according to christians God created and should be respected and marveled at. To me, that's the same God. They just chose to honor him differently.
I don't think there is a hell. Because my God, who loves everyone no matter what, wouldn't do that to someone. He doesn't care what I do really. As long as I don't cause harm to people, and always have the best intentions.
He doesn't meddle in peoples business either. He doesn't cause natural disasters, or save someones house, or whatever. He's got better things to do, and bigger problems. Like wars, corruption in power, etc.
I don't think that doing the right thing should have to do with God or religion. People shouldn't even put much thought into God, or Jesus, or religion. My God just wants me to live and do the right thing because it's natural for me to do it. Not because I was thinking "what would god want me to do", or "according to the bible it's the right thing to do". To me when you think about God when doing good things it almost makes the good deed wrong(?), if that makes any sense.
Anyways, there's more I would like to say, but I've already said too much. I hope this makes sense to some

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

and the only way to get out of sin was through death. I don't know why it was like that.... I don't claim to hold all the answers, I only know that biblically speaking this is the correct interpretation of the bible.

ill tell you why it is like that. becos god, the alpha and the omega, the creator, etc,... he MADE it that way.

there is no other answer. the only other possibility is that there is a power GREATER than your god that made rules your god has to obey. im guessing that is not a contention you are comfortable making, is it?

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

ill tell you why it is like that. becos god, the alpha and the omega, the creator, etc,... he MADE it that way.

yeah, i know, because god made it that way, but the question to WHY he made it that way is something that we'll probably never know. the only answer the bible gives us is "for the honor and glory to his praise". which probably doesn't explain much anyway...

there is no other answer. the only other possibility is that there is a power GREATER than your god that made rules your god has to obey. im guessing that is not a contention you are comfortable making, is it?

no, not at all.... i'm not claiming anything. i respect others beliefs and opinions. i don't feel the need to "defend" my god. like my father said once, "dios no necesita abejas pa nadar" or "god doesn't need a lifesaver to swim." it kinda sounds more clever in english, actually, now that i think about it. all i know, is that this god i'm claiming to believe is kinda a surrealistic god. a god who transcends time and all. someone who doesn't make sense with our human minds and probably will take more than a single lifetime to ever understand.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well about the last boy being kicked out because he's been "naughty" that's not how God works... that's just your interpretation simplifying God. and another thing if the mother set out that one dude to bring back the children they wouldn't have to follow all these rules... all they gotta do is believe that dude and follow him and he'll bring them back to the house. they won't have to worry about these "rules" cause the dude will fix it for them. even if they've been naughty, the dude will fix it for them...all they would have to do is believe in that dude, that's it.

and a child is supposed to know which dude to believe... how? you think it's perfectly loving for the mother to say "well my 5 year old child, it was a noble effort, i know you wanted to come home to me, but the guy you came to my house with is the wrong guy. so im sorry, but you just earned a lifetime of being sodomized cos now you're his. sorry" *slam*

yeah, that's love man.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

it's kinda like, "my god is bigger than your god." ok, that's fine. but my god doesn't force anybody to believe either. he gives them a choice.... and i'm sure taht even soulsinging's god would require you to believe in order to participate in whatever type of blessings it requires.... or i don't know. maybe not.

definitely not.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yeah, i know, because god made it that way, but the question to WHY he made it that way is something that we'll probably never know. the only answer the bible gives us is "for the honor and glory to his praise". which probably doesn't explain much anyway...

no, not at all.... i'm not claiming anything. i respect others beliefs and opinions. i don't feel the need to "defend" my god. like my father said once, "dios no necesita abejas pa nadar" or "god doesn't need a lifesaver to swim." it kinda sounds more clever in english, actually, now that i think about it. all i know, is that this god i'm claiming to believe is kinda a surrealistic god. a god who transcends time and all. someone who doesn't make sense with our human minds and probably will take more than a single lifetime to ever understand.

and im saying the WHY is becos god is as vain and petty as the average human. as i have been saying from the beginning. im offering a theory. your only theory is that you dont know. even the answer the bible gives supports my theory... becos god wants a bunch of honor, glory, and praise. even you have posted in here that he is greedy about lapping up all the worship in the world.

funny you mention that last part. becos the god I believe in transcends all and doesn't make sense to human thought. yet here you are, writing post after post claiming that you can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us, while im the one insisting we have no clue what god wants from us.