r u going to start this argument with me too?? do you also lack survival instincts?
your every argument goes back to survival instincts as some sort of trump card. yet you are completely incapable of saying how having survival instincts is incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying. the one time i cornered you on it, the only explanation you gave was "it just is."
it just is.
so then we don't have a survival instinct?
again, what difference does it make? sue, we have an instinct to survive. how does that have anything to do with fearing death? and you're not allowed to use the answer "it just is." that's invalid in a legal, scientific, philosophical, shit even theologists wouldn't accept it as a valid reason.
well, some people are suicidal. i know that. but get a normal person... ok... here's this example. if you had to choose between..... i don't know...... getting a finger chopped off... or getting your head chopped off which one would you choose?
pearl jam and nirvana is a very mediocre way of looking at it.
pearl jam and nirvana is the same, just to a different degree. the underlying logic is the same. that a preference for one option does not ipso facto indicate a revulsion at the other. i'd rather have my finger chopped off becos that doesn't impede my enjoyment of life much. but if you want to take it further... i'd choose death over paralysis or alzheimer's. if we have this overwhelming survival instinct that involves an unavoidable fear of death, as you suggest, nobody could ever make that choice.
see... i can understand this. this is very different.
i guess there's a thin line between an emotional fear and an instinctive fear. i don't have an emotional fear.... yea, i'll get sad if i'm about to die but only cause i wouldn't like to see my relatives suffer. i wouldn't get creeped out at dying. but my instinctive fear of dying is what keeps me safe and away from harm.
no it isn't. you say everyone is afraid of death, period. no escaping it. now you make up all these exceptions. one ducks when bullets fire becos of an instinctive fear of pain or hurt, not an instinctive fear of death. i flinch anytime a ball is thrown at me without my knowledge... not becos i think it will kill me, becos im afraid it will hurt.
no it isn't. you say everyone is afraid of death, period. no escaping it. now you make up all these exceptions. one ducks when bullets fire becos of an instinctive fear of pain or hurt, not an instinctive fear of death. i flinch anytime a ball is thrown at me without my knowledge... not becos i think it will kill me, becos im afraid it will hurt.
well, i'm pretty sure that getting shot in the head is probably painless. you wouldn't even have a second to feel the pain.
you keep making it sound like i'm referring to our fear in death as in something that we dread. i'm not saying that. i don't dread death, and i trust you don't either. i've been saying that all along. so what is it that you're arguing here????
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
your every argument goes back to survival instincts as some sort of trump card. yet you are completely incapable of saying how having survival instincts is incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying. the one time i cornered you on it, the only explanation you gave was "it just is."
first, you never cornered... if you did i wouldn't even know at which point. second, survival instinct was my primary argument and i used fear as a natural form for the lack of a better term.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well, i'm pretty sure that getting shot in the head is probably painless. you wouldn't even have a second to feel the pain.
you keep making it sound like i'm referring to our fear in death as in something that we dread. i'm not saying that. i don't dread death, and i trust you don't either. i've been saying that all along. so what is it that you're arguing here????
lots of people survive gunshots to the head. anytime i've hit my head on something, it hurt. id rather not test it with bullets.
what i'm arguing is the same as always... survival instincts do not imply universal fear of death. i'll ask again:
"how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying. your answer cannot be "it just is."
first, you never cornered... if you did i wouldn't even know at which point. second, survival instinct was my primary argument and i used fear as a natural form for the lack of a better term.
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
again, what difference does it make? sue, we have an instinct to survive. how does that have anything to do with fearing death? and you're not allowed to use the answer "it just is." that's invalid in a legal, scientific, philosophical, shit even theologists wouldn't accept it as a valid reason.
for the billionths kazillionth amksadf;oiwhepoid;flknsd; fgaidyhgpaejif;owk time not fear as in giving you the creeps, but fear, for the lack of a better term, a natural instinct we have to survive. we don't run from a lion because we're scared that it's gonna hurt... sure it's part of it... but the bigger part is cause we don't wanna die. we don't eat go to the hospital because we like it... we go to stay healthy and make sure we have any kind of illness which could lead to death. it's a natural fear that we have that keeps us alive.
pearl jam and nirvana is the same, just to a different degree.
yeah, a mediocre degree.
the underlying logic is the same. that a preference for one option does not ipso facto indicate a revulsion at the other. i'd rather have my finger chopped off becos that doesn't impede my enjoyment of life much.
doesn't impede my enjoyschmency.... stop beating around the bush dude.
but if you want to take it further... i'd choose death over paralysis or alzheimer's.
i would think getting your head chopped off is much worse than alzheimers or even paralysis..... but whatever.
if we have this overwhelming survival instinct that involves an unavoidable fear of death, as you suggest, nobody could ever make that choice.
no... of course not.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
The brain doesn't have sensory nerves to sense pain, the head does, but a person would probably be in shock.
One time I blacked out, I don't remember anything for the next two weeks and very little from the next few years, from head trauma.
Fear relies on the brain, particularly the amygdala, norepinephrine and cortisol. Damage to these areas can cause a lack of fear. Williams Syndrome, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, Asperger's and a bunch of other conditions can include a lack of fear of different things.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
what do you want me to call it then? worry? fret? what is it that keeps us from getting killed? if it's not fear, then what is it? what would you call it? i call it fear. again... not fear as in dreading, getting freaked out like it's some kind of ghost... but fear in a different sense of the word. that's where you fail in your argument. you call it, does not impede enjoyment of life... i call it fear, or survival instinct.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
for the billionths kazillionth amksadf;oiwhepoid;flknsd; fgaidyhgpaejif;owk time not fear as in giving you the creeps, but fear, for the lack of a better term, a natural instinct we have to survive.
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
what do you want me to call it then? worry? fret? what is it that keeps us from getting killed? if it's not fear, then what is it? what would you call it? i call it fear. again... not fear as in dreading, getting freaked out like it's some kind of ghost... but fear in a different sense of the word. that's where you fail in your argument. you call it, does not impede enjoyment of life... i call it fear, or survival instinct.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
what do you want me to call it then? worry? fret? what is it that keeps us from getting killed? if it's not fear, then what is it? what would you call it? i call it fear. again... not fear as in dreading, getting freaked out like it's some kind of ghost... but fear in a different sense of the word. that's where you fail in your argument. you call it, does not impede enjoyment of life... i call it fear, or survival instinct.
i call it a desire for life. our survival instinct indicates we desire to live. it does not indicate that this desire to live is only fueled by our fear of dying. for some, a fear of death might drive the desire to live, for others, it might be something totally different. fear of death is a possible source of our powerful desire to live. it is not the only or inevitable source of that desire.
i belive in god cous like wen iam in deep shit, or got truble or somthings on my mind hes someone to talk to and hes there for me . yeh it may sound weird but its true ya just got to belive thats all ..its cool
It all stems from the fear of castration. Just ask Freud.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i call it a desire for life. our survival instinct indicates we desire to live. it does not indicate that this desire to live is only fueled by our fear of dying. for some, a fear of death might drive the desire to live, for others, it might be something totally different. fear of death is a possible source of our powerful desire to live. it is not the only or inevitable source of that desire.
i agree. i'm not using fear as a dreadful emotion, although to some it might be the case. this is not so with you and i'm not taking that away from you.
except when you make it sound like getting your head chopped, getting shot, falling off a bridge, are all a piece of cake... it sounds kinda rubbish. nobody wants to get shot, fall off a bridge or get their heads chopped off (well, maybe only those who are suicidal). naturally we avoid these things. and it's all i was saying. you run away from a guy who's going to kill you because the feelings you get when you're in a survival mode makes you run away... whether you call it, "it takes away my enjoyment to live" or call it "fear"... it's the same thing.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I don't know what I believe in.. but if there is a god, he/she is fucked up for letting such wonderful people suffer for as long as they have to...
God may exist, but I'm not worshipping!
I don't know what I believe in.. but if there is a god, he/she is fucked up for letting such wonderful people suffer for as long as they have to...
God may exist, but I'm not worshipping!
you sound like a deist.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
whether you call it, "it takes away my enjoyment to live" or call it "fear"... it's the same thing.
I think your problem in this thread is that you're playing pretty fast and loose with the language. Most people have a pretty clear and definite meaning of the word "fear," whereas you seem to be willing to let it mean many things. Taking away enjoyment is not the same as fear.
Being stuck in this bedroom, if someone took away my laptop and my satellite radio, that would take away much of my enjoyment of life, but it wouldn't scare me.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
When I got cancer I wasn't really afraid of dying, and some of my treatments have made me wish I'd die real soon. My main motivator to stay alive at this point is my kids ... my wish to see them, and knowing how upset they will be when I'm gone.
sending big hugs to you hipiemom. stay strong beautiful lady.
you run away from a guy who's going to kill you because the feelings you get when you're in a survival mode makes you run away... whether you call it, "it takes away my enjoyment to live" or call it "fear"... it's the same thing.
i don't think it is and you haven't given me a single logical reason for why it is. but suit yourself.
I guess I should clear up what I mean by "fear of death." When I was violently attacked, I was very much afraid at first, but I was more afraid of what he might do to me and how much it would hurt than I was of dying. As it went on I got more and more scared, including being afraid of never seeing my friends and family again. Eventually I reached a point where I was thinking "Oh please just let me die now, I can't take this anymore." When I went unconscious, I thought I was dying and I was glad. So there was a fear of dying there for a little while, but that was overcome by a fear of living when life got bad enough.
When I got cancer I wasn't really afraid of dying, and some of my treatments have made me wish I'd die real soon. My main motivator to stay alive at this point is my kids ... my wish to see them, and knowing how upset they will be when I'm gone. If I didn't have kids, I probably would have done myself in by now. I can't really do anything other than lie in bed and feel like shit, there's not much of a point to this life.
Your post was very moving, hippiemom. It pretty much summed up the meaning of fear for me as it pertains to death. And I'm not so sure it is 'fear' exactly. Perhaps someone else has a better term for it. But, for me, it is the loss of loved ones whether it is me going or the loved one going. Death is unpleasant, not the actually event itself, but all the emotions that revolve around it, imo. Your last sentence really struck a nerve with me. My dad hit that point, a sudden cardiac event that left him quite miserable, sad, and depressed his quality of life taken was poor. It was hard to see him that way, yet it also to hurt when he passed, although I know he is at peace and no longer suffering. Perhaps the sorrow is selfish. It's how I feel when I think about you, your diminished quality of life, but at the same time, wanting and expecting you to always be around. Fear is not broad enough to explain it and maybe there is some underlying fear of the unknown, but it is really all the negative emotions such as loss, and sadness that surround it.
Well, this has turned into a bummer of a thread...............;)
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Your post was very moving, hippiemom. It pretty much summed up the meaning of fear for me as it pertains to death. And I'm not so sure it is 'fear' exactly. Perhaps someone else has a better term for it. But, for me, it is the loss of loved ones whether it is me going or the loved one going. Death is unpleasant, not the actually event itself, but all the emotions that revolve around it, imo. Your last sentence really struck a nerve with me. My dad hit that point, a sudden cardiac event that left him quite miserable, sad, and depressed his quality of life taken was poor. It was hard to see him that way, yet it also to hurt when he passed, although I know he is at peace and no longer suffering. Perhaps the sorrow is selfish. It's how I feel when I think about you, your diminished quality of life, but at the same time, wanting and expecting you to always be around. Fear is not broad enough to explain it and maybe there is some underlying fear of the unknown, but it is really all the negative emotions such as loss, and sadness that surround it.
Well, this has turned into a bummer of a thread...............;)
I know that, for me, what gets me crying when someone dies, is the thought of the children who've lost their daddy, the wife who has lost her husband, all the other people in his life, and of course sorrow for myself because I will miss him. I very rarely feel sorrow for the deceased person him/herself.
I don't think that fear has anything to do with any of this either.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I guess I should clear up what I mean by "fear of death." When I was violently attacked, I was very much afraid at first, but I was more afraid of what he might do to me and how much it would hurt than I was of dying. As it went on I got more and more scared, including being afraid of never seeing my friends and family again. Eventually I reached a point where I was thinking "Oh please just let me die now, I can't take this anymore." When I went unconscious, I thought I was dying and I was glad. So there was a fear of dying there for a little while, but that was overcome by a fear of living when life got bad enough.
When I got cancer I wasn't really afraid of dying, and some of my treatments have made me wish I'd die real soon. My main motivator to stay alive at this point is my kids ... my wish to see them, and knowing how upset they will be when I'm gone. If I didn't have kids, I probably would have done myself in by now. I can't really do anything other than lie in bed and feel like shit, there's not much of a point to this life.
Nicely put. When i was 18 i used to talk a lot of shit about not being afraid to die and about how much life sucked and i would actually prefer it. Aproximately 9 years later when my first son was about eighteen months old and a doctor told me "we'll run some tests, but this is classic cancer" i was scared shitless. I remember bawling to my father about "all i want to do is be with my wife and watch my son grow". I was terrified of what i would miss out on with him. i wouldn't be there for him when he needed me. i would, probably, eventually be replaced and i hated that thought as well. (After a few weeks of crying, surgery and no fewer than four pathologists, my doctor was amazed that what i had was benign afterall, so i will in no way compare my situation with yours). i think it is somewhat fair to say that many who claim to have no fear of dying have never been faced with it. It sounds to me like you have come full circle and i am amazed by your attitude. It is inspiring to say the least.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Nicely put. When i was 18 i used to talk a lot of shit about not being afraid to die and about how much life sucked and i would actually prefer it. Aproximately 9 years later when my first son was about eighteen months old and a doctor told me "we'll run some tests, but this is classic cancer" i was scared shitless. I remember bawling to my father about "all i want to do is be with my wife and watch my son grow". I was terrified of what i would miss out on with him. i wouldn't be there for him when he needed me. i would, probably, eventually be replaced and i hated that thought as well. (After a few weeks of crying, surgery and no fewer than four pathologists, my doctor was amazed that what i had was benign afterall, so i will in no way compare my situation with yours). i think it is somewhat fair to say that many who claim to have no fear of dying have never been faced with it. It sounds to me like you have come full circle and i am amazed by your attitude. It is inspiring to say the least.
Kids change everything, that's for sure. If my kids had been small, my response probably would have been closer to yours. It probably also helped that this was not the first time I had good reason to think my goose was cooked ... seriously, you do get better with practice.
I have many, many sad moments, about not seeing people again, about never getting to be a grandma (which is something I've always looked forward to). But it's all sadness, never fear. As I said, I feel so lousy most days that I probably would have taken matters into my own hands by now if it weren't for my kids.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
your every argument goes back to survival instincts as some sort of trump card. yet you are completely incapable of saying how having survival instincts is incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying. the one time i cornered you on it, the only explanation you gave was "it just is."
again, what difference does it make? sue, we have an instinct to survive. how does that have anything to do with fearing death? and you're not allowed to use the answer "it just is." that's invalid in a legal, scientific, philosophical, shit even theologists wouldn't accept it as a valid reason.
pearl jam and nirvana is the same, just to a different degree. the underlying logic is the same. that a preference for one option does not ipso facto indicate a revulsion at the other. i'd rather have my finger chopped off becos that doesn't impede my enjoyment of life much. but if you want to take it further... i'd choose death over paralysis or alzheimer's. if we have this overwhelming survival instinct that involves an unavoidable fear of death, as you suggest, nobody could ever make that choice.
no it isn't. you say everyone is afraid of death, period. no escaping it. now you make up all these exceptions. one ducks when bullets fire becos of an instinctive fear of pain or hurt, not an instinctive fear of death. i flinch anytime a ball is thrown at me without my knowledge... not becos i think it will kill me, becos im afraid it will hurt.
you keep making it sound like i'm referring to our fear in death as in something that we dread. i'm not saying that. i don't dread death, and i trust you don't either. i've been saying that all along. so what is it that you're arguing here????
lots of people survive gunshots to the head. anytime i've hit my head on something, it hurt. id rather not test it with bullets.
what i'm arguing is the same as always... survival instincts do not imply universal fear of death. i'll ask again:
"how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying. your answer cannot be "it just is."
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
yeah, a mediocre degree. doesn't impede my enjoyschmency.... stop beating around the bush dude. i would think getting your head chopped off is much worse than alzheimers or even paralysis..... but whatever. no... of course not.
The brain doesn't have sensory nerves to sense pain, the head does, but a person would probably be in shock.
One time I blacked out, I don't remember anything for the next two weeks and very little from the next few years, from head trauma.
Fear relies on the brain, particularly the amygdala, norepinephrine and cortisol. Damage to these areas can cause a lack of fear. Williams Syndrome, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, Asperger's and a bunch of other conditions can include a lack of fear of different things.
not even close. i'll go to the guillotine over those two any day. without a second thought.
how do survival instincts provide incontrovertible proof that everyone fears dying? your answer cannot be "it just is."
i call it a desire for life. our survival instinct indicates we desire to live. it does not indicate that this desire to live is only fueled by our fear of dying. for some, a fear of death might drive the desire to live, for others, it might be something totally different. fear of death is a possible source of our powerful desire to live. it is not the only or inevitable source of that desire.
except when you make it sound like getting your head chopped, getting shot, falling off a bridge, are all a piece of cake... it sounds kinda rubbish. nobody wants to get shot, fall off a bridge or get their heads chopped off (well, maybe only those who are suicidal). naturally we avoid these things. and it's all i was saying. you run away from a guy who's going to kill you because the feelings you get when you're in a survival mode makes you run away... whether you call it, "it takes away my enjoyment to live" or call it "fear"... it's the same thing.
God may exist, but I'm not worshipping!
Being stuck in this bedroom, if someone took away my laptop and my satellite radio, that would take away much of my enjoyment of life, but it wouldn't scare me.
i'd rather have my head chopped off than suffer from alzheimer's.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i don't think it is and you haven't given me a single logical reason for why it is. but suit yourself.
Your post was very moving, hippiemom. It pretty much summed up the meaning of fear for me as it pertains to death. And I'm not so sure it is 'fear' exactly. Perhaps someone else has a better term for it. But, for me, it is the loss of loved ones whether it is me going or the loved one going. Death is unpleasant, not the actually event itself, but all the emotions that revolve around it, imo. Your last sentence really struck a nerve with me. My dad hit that point, a sudden cardiac event that left him quite miserable, sad, and depressed his quality of life taken was poor. It was hard to see him that way, yet it also to hurt when he passed, although I know he is at peace and no longer suffering. Perhaps the sorrow is selfish. It's how I feel when I think about you, your diminished quality of life, but at the same time, wanting and expecting you to always be around. Fear is not broad enough to explain it and maybe there is some underlying fear of the unknown, but it is really all the negative emotions such as loss, and sadness that surround it.
Well, this has turned into a bummer of a thread...............;)
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I don't think that fear has anything to do with any of this either.
but you wouldn't know what's going on or the effect it was having on people.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
I have many, many sad moments, about not seeing people again, about never getting to be a grandma (which is something I've always looked forward to). But it's all sadness, never fear. As I said, I feel so lousy most days that I probably would have taken matters into my own hands by now if it weren't for my kids.