World would be worse off without faith...

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  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Then you are just subscribing to faith and no amount of logic can convince me of something that requires faith.
    I don't know if you saw where farfromglorified and myself were debating faith earlier today. Clearly, he and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Farfromglorified, like you, processes information based on logic, too. And yet he and I have had deep indepth discussions on our vastly different views because even when we disagree, we accept the validity of a logical assertion from one another. Logic is it's own indicator! Philosophy can be as simple as that. It has nothing to do with accepting concepts you disagree with. I only ask that you keep your mind open and to honestly consider a concept by assessing it before you judge it. Once you have made that assessment, and you still disagree, great. The way things stand between us at this point, you are not willing to consider what I am saying based on logic. It seems that you do not trust your own ability to use logic independent of the established schools of thought of the day. Ahnimus, you are meant to be an independent thinker. You are in the top some percentile of intelligence. You have the capacity to think and consider far beyond what is established. If you dare....
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    I don't know if you saw where farfromglorified and myself were debating faith earlier today. Clearly, he and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Farfromglorified, like you, processes information based on logic, too. And yet he and I have had deep indepth discussions on our vastly different views because even when we disagree, we accept the validity of a logical assertion from one another. Logic is it's own indicator! Philosophy can be as simple as that. It has nothing to do with accepting concepts you disagree with. I only ask that you keep your mind open and to honestly consider a concept by assessing it before you judge it. Once you have made that assessment, and you still disagree, great. The way things stand between us at this point, you are not willing to consider what I am saying based on logic. It seems that you do not trust your own ability to use logic independent of the established schools of thought of the day. Ahnimus, you are meant to be an independent thinker. You are in the top some percentile of intelligence. You have the capacity to think and consider far beyond what is established. If you dare....

    That's not it at all, I accept the fractal universe as a great theory. It's the one theory that actually makes sense in terms of the structure of the universe. But it's also a rather pointless discussion.

    The problem I have with your theories is spinning off some tangent about spirituality which is neither valid physically or logically.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gossardstradlin
    gossardstradlin Posts: 324
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't see how.

    Is a child's life better if they believe in Santa Clause than if they do not... I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that it is. In-fact, such belief simply raises greater dillemas down the road.

    lol

    Oh come on now????? Didn't you see the Polar Express????? Brought a tear to my eye when I watched it with my niece and nephews.

    So what's the solution? Belief in nothing? Because even then we will have to "believe" certain things about people and have faith and belief dictate our lives.

    How do you think society would act with belief in just themselves or nothing???????
    "She knows there is no success like failure
    And that failure's no success at all."

    "Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."

    "Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
    A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    angelica wrote:
    So you are agreeing that a person's perception of something being real makes it 100% real in their experience, even if objectively it is not physically real?
    Absolutely

    You do know that the subjective experience is real. You know it happens within the natural existing reality system. While it may be of a different nature than scientific understanding, it is still real.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That's not it at all, I accept the fractal universe as a great theory. It's the one theory that actually makes sense in terms of the structure of the universe. But it's also a rather pointless discussion.

    The problem I have with your theories is spinning off some tangent about spirituality which is neither valid physically or logically.
    What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • brain of c
    brain of c Posts: 5,213
    angelica wrote:
    What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.

    you are smart. don't respond to the ill lee gitt er itt.
    d'oh!!!!!!

    http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*yawn*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.

    Angelica, if you were my age and single, I'd marry you, figuratively speaking of course.

    The only thing different between us in our thoughts is the spirituality thing. I know you've had spiritual experiences and I have not, that's what sets us apart. You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis. But fundamentally we agree on the same things. As long as we both come from a deterministic root, then I'm extremely happy. It's the predominant belief that people have the ability to choose independently of physical or divine determinents that really upsets me. I don't even care if you believe in God, so long as you don't believe we have free-will.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    You do know that the subjective experience is real. You know it happens within the natural existing reality system. While it may be of a different nature than scientific understanding, it is still real.

    The subjective reality is real for all intents and purposes. It's perceptually real. But physically it is not real. I feel there is more importance in focusing on physical reality, subjective reality is a setback.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*yawn*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    hey, nobody said you had to read it.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    hey, nobody said you had to read it.

    I know, it's just that these people regurgitate and mull over the same shit again and again. It's kind of ...not healthy, in my opinion.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    I have faith that at some point during the course of a 24-hour day I'll get a boner.

    I couldn't have said it better myself.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    hey, nobody said you had to read it.

    It's the same old song, diggin' in the same record bin, hittin' the same bong
    Livin' in the same city, on the same sidewalk, with some played out game and some played out talk.

    - Optimus Rhyme "Ford Vs. Chevy"
    http://www.optimusrhyme.com/musicplayer/Optimus_Rhyme_Ford_vs_Chevy.mp3
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Angelica, if you were my age and single, I'd marry you, figuratively speaking of course.
    I'm going to take this as a compliment, Ahnimus. Figuratively speaking, of course. ;) If you hadn't woven the three disclaimers into the one compliment, I might even feel compelled to thank you. :)
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis.
    This is not so much a compliment. I accept your opinion, though
    The only thing different between us in our thoughts is the spirituality thing. I know you've had spiritual experiences and I have not, that's what sets us apart. ... But fundamentally we agree on the same things. As long as we both come from a deterministic root, then I'm extremely happy. It's the predominant belief that people have the ability to choose independently of physical or divine determinents that really upsets me. I don't even care if you believe in God, so long as you don't believe we have free-will.
    I am also glad we see eye to eye on many fundamentals. As for the other stuff, we all have our quirks.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    gue barium, your whole schtick here is very funny.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    brain of c wrote:
    you are smart. don't respond to the ill lee gitt er itt.
    :D
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Songburst
    Songburst Posts: 1,195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ahnimus
    You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis.
    angelica wrote:
    This is not so much a compliment. I accept your opinion, though
    It made me laugh out loud at work, so it did it's job. If I weren't alone at the office, I might have looked stupid.
    1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    I'm going to take this as a compliment, Ahnimus. Figuratively speaking, of course. ;) If you hadn't woven the three disclaimers into the one compliment, I might even feel compelled to thank you. :)
    This is not so much a compliment. I accept your opinion, though

    I am also glad we see eye to eye on many fundamentals. As for the other stuff, we all have our quirks.


    Well, I am using the clinical definition of the term pyschosis not the social stigmatization that it carries. If there was another word, I'd use it.

    A wide variety of nervous system stressors, both organic and functional, can cause a psychotic reaction. This has led Tsuang and colleagues to argue that "psychosis is the 'fever' of mental illness—a serious but nonspecific indicator".[2][3]

    However, most people have unusual and reality-distorting experiences at some point in their life, without being impaired or even distressed by these experiences. For example, many people have experienced hallucinations, and some have even found inspiration or religious revelation in them.[4] As a result, it has been argued that psychosis is not fundamentally separate from normal consciousness, but rather, is on a continuum with normal consciousness.[5] In this view, people who are clinically found to be psychotic, may simply be having particularly intense or distressing experiences (see schizotypy).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The subjective reality is real for all intents and purposes. It's perceptually real. But physically it is not real. I feel there is more importance in focusing on physical reality, subjective reality is a setback.
    Point heard. I completely accept what you feel is your priority. I merely point out that you are wired to see it that way, as I'm wired to see otherwise, according to personality typing, anyway. In the end, I see that your priority of focus is 100% valid for you.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I am using the clinical definition of the term pyschosis not the social stigmatization that it carries. If there was another word, I'd use it.

    A wide variety of nervous system stressors, both organic and functional, can cause a psychotic reaction. This has led Tsuang and colleagues to argue that "psychosis is the 'fever' of mental illness—a serious but nonspecific indicator".[2][3]

    However, most people have unusual and reality-distorting experiences at some point in their life, without being impaired or even distressed by these experiences. For example, many people have experienced hallucinations, and some have even found inspiration or religious revelation in them.[4] As a result, it has been argued that psychosis is not fundamentally separate from normal consciousness, but rather, is on a continuum with normal consciousness.[5] In this view, people who are clinically found to be psychotic, may simply be having particularly intense or distressing experiences (see schizotypy).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
    I accept that definition. Such phenomena happened on many levels, including a spiritual level as well. (see discussion of holons--parts/wholes/holarchies) I am very fortunate I lost touch with what to others is 'reality'. It happened on numerous occasions. Had it not happened, I would probably be dead today, if not at my own hand, then through other nefarious means. I was extremely ill in many ways when I began having the experiences that saved me. I am blessed now with an ability to see way outside the box of the usual conventions. I love to push those limits to greater and greater perspectives.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!

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