World would be worse off without faith...

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Ok, so you don't literally mean that the experience of love grows beyond the chemicals, rather the chemicals grow with the experience. Correct?

i wouldn't say the chemicals grow, no. i would say our dependence upon them grows. if we are denied love then we crave it. that craving can grow. i would consider that as being beyond the experience of love.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

i wouldn't say the chemicals grow, no. i would say our dependence upon them grows. if we are denied love then we crave it. that craving can grow. i would consider that as being beyond the experience of love.

Ok, but you don't literally mean that the chemical bond or dependency on the chemical bond exceed the experience of love or vise versa?

Commy

ok, ahnimus, i didn't read through the 30 pagers of this but i have a question for you, because i believe this is a terrible thread title...

if there is no God, no higher power even, if we are all just products of our environment, straight up chemical reactions that can think...

in your world...its ok to kill? right? its ok to abuse others...we are just chemical reactions and we can do whatever we want...what holds you back, right? its nature's way, the fittest of the fittest shall survive. is that what you are saying...

Ahnimus

Commy wrote:

ok, ahnimus, i didn't read through the 30 pagers of this but i have a question for you, because i believe this is a terrible thread title...

if there is no God, no higher power even, if we are all just products of our environment, straight up chemical reactions that can think...

in your world...its ok to kill? right? its ok to abuse others...we are just chemical reactions and we can do whatever we want...what holds you back, right? its nature's way, the fittest of the fittest shall survive. is that what you are saying...

Nope, quite the contrary. What I'm saying is that incidents of murder and abuse need to be thoroughly investigated. We need to identify the underlying root causes of murder and abuse in order to prevent them from happening.

Commy

Ahnimus wrote:

Nope, quite the contrary. What I'm saying is that incidents of murder and abuse need to be thoroughly investigated. We need to identify the underlying root causes of murder and abuse in order to prevent them from happening.

I agree with that, the root causes of murder can be traced directly to capitalism, nationalism, religion or crimes of passion, 99% of the time.


What I don't get is why do you care? if there is no after life, no reason to live a "good" life, why should you?

Ahnimus

Commy wrote:

I agree with that, the root causes of murder can be traced directly to capitalism, nationalism, religion or crimes of passion, 99% of the time.

What I don't get is why do you care? if there is no after life, no reason to live a "good" life, why should you?

Evolution of our species. If we can progress, we can survive.

And who knows, in 20 years, they guess they'll be able to extend human life by 40 years, and it will increase exponentially to the point I will live to be 1,000 years old.

Commy

Ahnimus wrote:

Evolution of our species. If we can progress, we can survive.

And who knows, in 20 years, they guess they'll be able to extend human life by 40 years, and it will increase exponentially to the point I will live to be 1,000 years old.

Simple matter of procreation. that's the extent of your plan? and that's progress?

as it stands the human race is having no problems doing that.

Commy

I assume you want what's best for everyone. And that you have the ability to empathize. I believe that ability to be more than just a product of chemical reactions and our synapses flashing in our brains, more than the sum of all our parts, hence a possible explanation of a higher power. the ability to empathize.

Ahnimus

Commy wrote:

Simple matter of procreation. that's the extent of your plan? and that's progress?

as it stands the human race is having no problems doing that.

Not currently, but there are signs of moral collapse as we are moving towards global federation, we need a moral system that everyone can agree on. We need to eliminate old dogmas and I feel, in respect of science, formulate new moral guidelines.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

...hardset religious minds need to evolve...

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

...hardset religious minds need to evolve...

As does the dogmatic science mind. Only then can we grasp integrated intelligence. This either or imbalanced stuff is part of the evolution.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

As does the dogmatic science mind. Only then can we grasp integrated intelligence. This either or imbalanced stuff is part of the evolution.

I doubt that the perfect state is a 50/50 split. I'd favor 70/30 for science. Overly religious people have kooky tendencies and comprehension difficulties sometimes. I think it's possible religion could very well eventually turn into fokelore.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

As does the dogmatic science mind. Only then can we grasp integrated intelligence. This either or imbalanced stuff is part of the evolution.

I think it's called Buddhism.

Jeanie

Why do we need labels? And why do people have to choose a camp?
Is it not enough to keep an open mind and take on board or reject the information as it comes up?

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I doubt that the perfect state is a 50/50 split. I'd favor 70/30 for science. Overly religious people have kooky tendencies and comprehension difficulties sometimes. I think it's possible religion could very well eventually turn into fokelore.

According to the developmental psychologists, even when there is much disagreement on points, there is underlying agreement across the board that each group with corresponding worldview must naturally evolve on it's own to higher levels at a natural pace. According to one prominant map of these levels, both the fundamental religion view, and the logic/scientific world view are 3 and 2 stages away from what is considered an integrated worldview. The hallmark of a view that is not at the integrated level is the belief that other views are "wrong". At the integrated levels, one recognizes the validity for all stages of evolution and that each stage must be preserved for the healthy evolution of those moving through that stage. Those with integrated awareness, having progressed through the other stages, recognize that evolution consists of progression, and that one stage cannot leap to another. Also at the integrated levels, individuals have evolved through the prior levels and can moved through any and all of them when such a mindset is called upon, thusly fully using the strengths of all stages. Again, the polarized stages consisting of right/wrong views are....polarized and thereby not integrated.

Purple Hawk

Jeanie wrote:

Why do we need labels? And why do people have to choose a camp?
Is it not enough to keep an open mind and take on board or reject the information as it comes up?

people have to choose a camp becaus not doing so is failing to find yourself, and address what it is that you believe.

open mind schmopen mind. one man's "information" is another man's propoganda. i don't work well in the middle, i know what i believe and i want to debate the fundamentals....i'm not good at singin' koombyah

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

I think it's called Buddhism.

Ahnimus, what do you think of this?

scroll down click go...

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/freewill1.html

Jeanie

Purple Hawk wrote:

people have to choose a camp becaus not doing so is failing to find yourself, and address what it is that you believe.

Hey you! I owe you an email! I'll get right on that!

So back to the thread.

What if neither camp has managed to "nail it" for you?
I don't see not choosing as "failing to find" myself or not addressing what I believe. I believe that you shouldn't follow anything too close to the prescribed doctrines. AND that things change over time. So what I believe today may not be what I believe tomorrow. BUT I need to be the one to make those decisions. Picking a camp, and sticking with it, is giving over one's ability to evolve as an individual.

Purple Hawk wrote:

open mind schmopen mind. one man's "information" is another man's propoganda. i don't work well in the middle, i know what i believe and i want to debate the fundamentals....i'm not good at singin' koombyah

True, but surely the idea is to inform oneself to the best of one's ability and to accept or reject information as you reason along? AND feel?

Aahh koombuyah!!

THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD NEEDS!!!! :D

A bit of unity!!! Some hand clapping, singing and acceptance!!

All together now!!

Koombuyah, my lord, koombuyah!!