Those who believe in god and those who are athiests.
And the thing that I have faith in more than anything else, is people.
AND I have faith in myself, and that I don't know all the answers.
And probably never will. That's what I have faith in the most.
Atheism doesn't require faith.
Predicting the actions of other people with limited knowledge about them does require faith. I call it a probabilistic prediction of future behavior. But, I'll let you get away with faith. :P
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I wanted to share this piece I've cited before, but never provided citation for. It's very very interesting... I had to type it out for someone at skepticforums, so I thought I'd share it to back up my claims here. So here it is:
That was the research I was citing. It's hard to find a copy of it online though. Got it from David R. Schaffer's "Developmental Psychology 4th Edition" on page 156, it reads:
"... all the neurons a person will ever have - some 100 to 200 billion of them - have already formed by the end of the second trimester of pregnancy, before the brain growth spurt has even begun (Kolb & Fantie, 1989; Rakic, 1991)
Meanwhile, the process of synaptogensis - the formation of synaptic connections among neurons - proceeds rapidly during the brain growth spurt. This brings us to one of the more interesting facts about the developing nervous system: The average infant has far more neurons and neural connections than adults do. The reason is that neurons that successfully interconnect with other neurons crowd out those that don't, so that about half the neurons produced early in life also die early in life (Janowsky & Finlay, 1986)"
So yea, I wasn't sure about the actual number, I swear I read that somewhere else, but here it says half. My point was though, that the brain develops in an evolutionary manner. It kind of just tries to do everything and what doesn't work gets eliminated.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ok, a whole bunch of shit happens in the brain in response to stimuli that causes the sensation of lust or 'love at first sight'. Prolonged exposure to the stimuli causes chemical bonding in the brain which results in the ontologically subjective experience of love.
And children? Love of children? Or family? Or friends? Different chemicals?
I have to ask Ryan, do you run through all this is in your mind as you are connecting with people? Or can you just "be"? Just enjoy the moment?
Just wondering.
It doesn't? I would have thought that you have faith that what you are reading, learning and believing, along with reason, also requires faith that you are on the correct course. Faith that what you believe is truth.
Predicting the actions of other people with limited knowledge about them does require faith. I call it a probabilistic prediction of future behavior. But, I'll let you get away with faith.
So yea, I wasn't sure about the actual number, I swear I read that somewhere else, but here it says half. My point was though, that the brain develops in an evolutionary manner. It kind of just tries to do everything and what doesn't work gets eliminated.
Can you see how the concept or your personal experience of love is beyond being only the chemical? It's in a full loving experience, for example. That experience, at least to me, is so beyond the chemical. It's something that we can't put our finger on. Do you see yourself in the same way? Do you see that you far more than all of your parts added up?
I feel like it's beyond something chemical, but I logic tells me it's not. And I think the way I feel is also a product of chemicals.
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy or experience love, friendship, a beautiful sunset... I just don't believe in a soul. Or if there's a soul it's a product of the brain, nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual ...
But in all honesty, I rarely ponder these things. Why would I? It's like watching a magic joy, I know it isn't real, there's a trick to it and people can learn it... that doesn't stop me from enjoying it.
I think the brain is very powerful. The fact that I can feel what I feel, the things I can think of, the things I can do... and the things your brain does that a lot of people don't even think about are the things that keep you alive. When I say that I'm my brain, it means all my experiences, everything I have ever done is stored in my brain, my brain gives "me" the ability to give certain things meaning, my brain gives "me" desires, aspirations, feelings etc.
It's a wonderful thing.
You said:
Did CS Lewis say all of this, or part of it?
He didn't say "I am my brain" if that's your question. I came across it once somewhere, without its context so that's all I can say.
Hope this post answers your questions, I have difficulty explaining myself even in my native language.
It doesn't? I would have thought that you have faith that what you are reading, learning and believing, along with reason, also requires faith that you are on the correct course. Faith that what you believe is truth.
i don't have faith in anything he's saying either, love. i can't expect him to.
I think you are awesome explaining yourself at all times, Collin, being concise and accurate, too. This is particularly impressive since it's not your native language.
I feel like it's beyond something chemical, but I logic tells me it's not. And I think the way I feel is also a product of chemicals.
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy or experience love, friendship, a beautiful sunset... I just don't believe in a soul. Or if there's a soul it's a product of the brain, nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual ...
Keep in mind I am not talking about something supernatural or spiritual. I am pointing out that while it has a chemical basis, common sense shows us that our experience of being in love, including any of it's outcome like kissing or making love--the experience in life, happening like a play, is much beyond the chemical alone. It's like the chemical is the container, and the reality we experience--the play itself- is the product of the chemical. A product stems from it's base, but is also more than it's base. Do you agree so far?
But in all honesty, I rarely ponder these things. Why would I? It's like watching a magic joy, I know it isn't real, there's a trick to it and people can learn it... that doesn't stop me from enjoying it.
Understandable.
I think the brain is very powerful. The fact that I can feel what I feel, the things I can think of, the things I can do... and the things your brain does that a lot of people don't even think about are the things that keep you alive. When I say that I'm my brain, it means all my experiences, everything I have ever done is stored in my brain, my brain gives "me" the ability to give certain things meaning, my brain gives "me" desires, aspirations, feelings etc.
You are saying that all your experiences are stored in your brain, and again, I think we all agree that the memory of those eperiences are stored in the brain, but the experiences themselves played out in the dimensions of time, height, depth and width--in a space outside of our brain around us in life. Correct?
To me, when we make it be only about the brain, and the chemicals, without acknowledging the actions, and experiences that take place in space, we are seeing a very, very limited view. Common sense tells me we all acknowledge what plays out around us in our actions but the minute we say it is only about our brains, we are being unconscious about the parts of life that are acted out by our bodies, in experience, in the space around us.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i don't have faith in anything he's saying either, love. i can't expect him to.
Oh I have faith in him. Just as I have faith in you. And all humans beings.
What I do know is that everybody here has put forth some really interesting ideas and theories. But I am still no closer to having the answers than I was before the thread was started. BUT that's ok with me. I don't have to have all the answers. It's enough to try to understand other people's points of view and accept them for those regardless of whether or not we agree.
...........Keep in mind I am not talking about something supernatural or spiritual. I am pointing out that while it has a chemical basis, common sense shows us that our experience of being in love, including any of it's outcome like kissing or making love--the experience in life, happening like a play, is much beyond the chemical alone. It's like the chemical is the container, and the reality we experience--the play itself- is the product of the chemical. A product stems from it's base, but is also more than it's base...............
..........You are saying that all your experiences are stored in your brain, and again, I think we all agree that the memory of those eperiences are stored in the brain, but the experiences themselves played out in the dimensions of time, height, depth and width--in a space outside of our brain around us in life. Correct? .......................
.......................To me, when we make it be only about the brain, and the chemicals, without acknowledging the actions, and experiences that take place in space, we are seeing a very, very limited view. Common sense tells me we all acknowledge what plays out around us in our actions but the minute we say it is only about our brains, we are being unconscious about the parts of life that are acted out by our bodies, in experience, in the space around us.
This is excellent stuff angelica. Actually you're explanations and point's of view in this thread have been very heartening to read. Even though I've struggled to comprehend.
I very much think we agree. I'm sure Ahnimus will be back soon enough to explain about pheremones and how they interact from one person to another.
But until then......................;)
This is excellent stuff angelica. Actually you're explainations and point's of view in this thread have been very heartening to read. Even though I've struggled to comprehend.
I very much think we agree. I'm sure Ahnimus will be back soon enough to explain about pheremones and how they interact from one person to another.
But until then......................;)
Thanks Jeanie! I'll gladly hear about pheremones, if Ahnimus is willing to acknowledge the images our brains project into the space around as the "plays" or the experiences we act out! It would be silly to imagine one went without the other!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Thanks Jeanie! I'll gladly hear about pheremones, if Ahnimus is willing to acknowledge the images our brains project into the space around as the "plays" or the experiences we act out! It would be silly to imagine one went without the other!
If Ahnimus plans on denying human actions and observable experiences, I just might accuse him of denying reality. Being in out of touch with reality would make him "psychotic" by definition.
Mauaahahhahahhaaa!!!!! *wicked head toss to accompany the heinous belly laugh*
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
If Ahnimus plans on denying human actions and observable experiences, I just might accuse him of denying reality. Being in out of touch with reality would make him "psychotic" by definition.
Mauaahahhahahhaaa!!!!! *wicked head toss to accompany the heinous belly laugh*
If Ahnimus plans on denying human actions and observable experiences, I just might accuse him of denying reality. Being in out of touch with reality would make him "psychotic" by definition.
Mauaahahhahahhaaa!!!!! *wicked head toss to accompany the heinous belly laugh*
it's spring here and the sage is beginning to bloom. looking out over them i noticed they were all alike. almost exact copies of eachother. then i recalled a neighbors puppies they were trying to sell. each looked exactly alike and behaved alike. then i remembered my children. each one had a distinct personality even before it had interaction with the world.
maybe proof of a soul is in the eyes of an infant.
it's spring here and the sage is beginning to bloom. looking out over them i noticed they were all alike. almost exact copies of eachother. then i recalled a neighbors puppies they were trying to sell. each looked exactly alike and behaved alike. then i remembered my children. each one had a distinct personality even before it had interaction with the world.
maybe proof of a soul is in the eyes of an infant.
Those were some wierd puppies. In my experience with puppies, they've all had very distinct personalities.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
it's spring here and the sage is beginning to bloom. looking out over them i noticed they were all alike. almost exact copies of eachother. then i recalled a neighbors puppies they were trying to sell. each looked exactly alike and behaved alike. then i remembered my children. each one had a distinct personality even before it had interaction with the world.
maybe proof of a soul is in the eyes of an infant.
Keep digging. Keep looking at the complexity of life and trying to understand it. A baby begins to learn during pregnancy. They can hear and learn in the prenatal environment.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If Ahnimus plans on denying human actions and observable experiences, I just might accuse him of denying reality. Being in out of touch with reality would make him "psychotic" by definition.
Mauaahahhahahhaaa!!!!! *wicked head toss to accompany the heinous belly laugh*
What am I denying now?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If you're not denying anything, I'm glad to hear it.
Oh I see, well your hypothesis violates the conservation of energy by stating that the emergent property, or experience of love, is greater than the sum of it's parts.
"I am pointing out that while it has a chemical basis, common sense shows us that our experience of being in love, including any of it's outcome like kissing or making love--the experience in life, happening like a play, is much beyond the chemical alone"
What is the basis for assuming that the experience of love is greater than the sum of it's parts?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Keep digging. Keep looking at the complexity of life and trying to understand it. A baby begins to learn during pregnancy. They can hear and learn in the prenatal environment.
and during that time; the infant would have learned about the same thing. in my situation, anyway. yet they were still so different. and they still display those basic traits.
for example; you could post under a different screen name and we would know it's you. you are unique and we can identify you without sight or voice.
now if our brains functioned the same; processed information the same; etc; we would think the same. similar to a school of fish. there may be a thousand fish in that school yet each will move in unison. now give those fish a soul and free will and they'd all run into eachother.
and during that time; the infant would have learned about the same thing. in my situation, anyway. yet they were still so different. and they still display those basic traits.
for example; you could post under a different screen name and we would know it's you. you are unique and we can identify you without sight or voice.
now if our brains functioned the same; processed information the same; etc; we would think the same. similar to a school of fish. there may be a thousand fish in that school yet each will move in unison. now give those fish a soul and free will and they'd all run into eachother.
No they wouldn't. OLS, I mean this in the nicest way, I think your knowledge of cognition and the human brain is extremely limited. No two brains are ever identical and no two experiences are either.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Atheism doesn't require faith.
Predicting the actions of other people with limited knowledge about them does require faith. I call it a probabilistic prediction of future behavior. But, I'll let you get away with faith. :P
amen to that brother.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And children? Love of children? Or family? Or friends? Different chemicals?
I have to ask Ryan, do you run through all this is in your mind as you are connecting with people? Or can you just "be"? Just enjoy the moment?
Just wondering.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
It doesn't? I would have thought that you have faith that what you are reading, learning and believing, along with reason, also requires faith that you are on the correct course. Faith that what you believe is truth.
Pardon? What was that?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
So use it or lose it?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Lucky for us we don't need our entire brain to function.
Or maybe not so lucky.
naděje umírá poslední
Perhaps. Or perhaps if parts of your brain didn't function you'd be wishing for those bits back.
It's amazing what impact small areas of the brain that don't work can have on the rest of the body.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I feel like it's beyond something chemical, but I logic tells me it's not. And I think the way I feel is also a product of chemicals.
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy or experience love, friendship, a beautiful sunset... I just don't believe in a soul. Or if there's a soul it's a product of the brain, nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual ...
But in all honesty, I rarely ponder these things. Why would I? It's like watching a magic joy, I know it isn't real, there's a trick to it and people can learn it... that doesn't stop me from enjoying it.
I think the brain is very powerful. The fact that I can feel what I feel, the things I can think of, the things I can do... and the things your brain does that a lot of people don't even think about are the things that keep you alive. When I say that I'm my brain, it means all my experiences, everything I have ever done is stored in my brain, my brain gives "me" the ability to give certain things meaning, my brain gives "me" desires, aspirations, feelings etc.
It's a wonderful thing.
He didn't say "I am my brain" if that's your question. I came across it once somewhere, without its context so that's all I can say.
Hope this post answers your questions, I have difficulty explaining myself even in my native language.
naděje umírá poslední
Yes, I agree. I just don't think the "soul" is an ethereal thing.
naděje umírá poslední
i don't have faith in anything he's saying either, love. i can't expect him to.
Keep in mind I am not talking about something supernatural or spiritual. I am pointing out that while it has a chemical basis, common sense shows us that our experience of being in love, including any of it's outcome like kissing or making love--the experience in life, happening like a play, is much beyond the chemical alone. It's like the chemical is the container, and the reality we experience--the play itself- is the product of the chemical. A product stems from it's base, but is also more than it's base. Do you agree so far?
Understandable.
You are saying that all your experiences are stored in your brain, and again, I think we all agree that the memory of those eperiences are stored in the brain, but the experiences themselves played out in the dimensions of time, height, depth and width--in a space outside of our brain around us in life. Correct?
To me, when we make it be only about the brain, and the chemicals, without acknowledging the actions, and experiences that take place in space, we are seeing a very, very limited view. Common sense tells me we all acknowledge what plays out around us in our actions but the minute we say it is only about our brains, we are being unconscious about the parts of life that are acted out by our bodies, in experience, in the space around us.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Well I'm not sure it is either Collin.
I don't know if it is or it isn't ethereal. But I have faith that it exists.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Oh I have faith in him. Just as I have faith in you.
What I do know is that everybody here has put forth some really interesting ideas and theories. But I am still no closer to having the answers than I was before the thread was started. BUT that's ok with me. I don't have to have all the answers. It's enough to try to understand other people's points of view and accept them for those regardless of whether or not we agree.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
This is excellent stuff angelica. Actually you're explanations and point's of view in this thread have been very heartening to read. Even though I've struggled to comprehend.
I very much think we agree. I'm sure Ahnimus will be back soon enough to explain about pheremones and how they interact from one person to another.
But until then......................;)
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Good luck with that!!
I'll be watching with interest!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Mauaahahhahahhaaa!!!!! *wicked head toss to accompany the heinous belly laugh*
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
LMAO!!
I really will have to keep a watch on this!!!
It looks like it's just hotting up again!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Aaaah! Pretty!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it's spring here and the sage is beginning to bloom. looking out over them i noticed they were all alike. almost exact copies of eachother. then i recalled a neighbors puppies they were trying to sell. each looked exactly alike and behaved alike. then i remembered my children. each one had a distinct personality even before it had interaction with the world.
maybe proof of a soul is in the eyes of an infant.
Keep digging. Keep looking at the complexity of life and trying to understand it. A baby begins to learn during pregnancy. They can hear and learn in the prenatal environment.
What am I denying now?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Oh I see, well your hypothesis violates the conservation of energy by stating that the emergent property, or experience of love, is greater than the sum of it's parts.
"I am pointing out that while it has a chemical basis, common sense shows us that our experience of being in love, including any of it's outcome like kissing or making love--the experience in life, happening like a play, is much beyond the chemical alone"
What is the basis for assuming that the experience of love is greater than the sum of it's parts?
and during that time; the infant would have learned about the same thing. in my situation, anyway. yet they were still so different. and they still display those basic traits.
for example; you could post under a different screen name and we would know it's you. you are unique and we can identify you without sight or voice.
now if our brains functioned the same; processed information the same; etc; we would think the same. similar to a school of fish. there may be a thousand fish in that school yet each will move in unison. now give those fish a soul and free will and they'd all run into eachother.
No they wouldn't. OLS, I mean this in the nicest way, I think your knowledge of cognition and the human brain is extremely limited. No two brains are ever identical and no two experiences are either.