I think the word "faith" is being mistreated in the world today. Let's look at the dictionary definition:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Alrighty, I would call that a fairly well-balanced definition, except for this (and this is the part everyone on this thread has chosen to focus on) :
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2)
Why do I have a problem with this part of the definition? Because both sides are pointing the finger at each other and using a book as their reference. On one side is the Bible, on the other side is Websters. For all of you that choose Websters, you're putting your faith in somebody else's idea of what faith is. Other than Webster, you have no proof of what faith is, being that you've denounced it yourself.
I think the word "faith" is being mistreated in the world today. Let's look at the dictionary definition:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Alrighty, I would call that a fairly well-balanced definition, except for this (and this is the part everyone on this thread has chosen to focus on) :
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2)
Why do I have a problem with this part of the definition? Because both sides are pointing the finger at each other and using a book as their reference. On one side is the Bible, on the other side is Websters. For all of you that choose Websters, you're putting your faith in somebody else's idea of what faith is. Other than Webster, you have no proof of what faith is, being that you've denounced it yourself.
So why didn't he say "dad, why are you letting me down". Somehow I don't know too many people that would know of their death and not want to escape it. Except this one wild story.
.
I thought he did say that 'My God why have you forsaken me'?
(and is supposed to also be God at the same time)
As for the original question - no idea. I do think religious faith has been responsible for a lot of good over the centuries - heaven and hell are after the all the cleverest way ever thought of combining both the carrott and the stick.
I think we'd all be better off concentrating on improving the republic of Earth than thinking about the Kingdom of heaven though.
I think the word "faith" is being mistreated in the world today. Let's look at the dictionary definition:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Alrighty, I would call that a fairly well-balanced definition, except for this (and this is the part everyone on this thread has chosen to focus on) :
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2)
Why do I have a problem with this part of the definition? Because both sides are pointing the finger at each other and using a book as their reference. On one side is the Bible, on the other side is Websters. For all of you that choose Websters, you're putting your faith in somebody else's idea of what faith is. Other than Webster, you have no proof of what faith is, being that you've denounced it yourself.
The purpose of language is to facilitate communication. In order to do that, there needs to be common agreement on what a word means. That is the function of dictionaries. I commonly use Webster's definitions not because I have some sort of faith in Webster, but because they are the most easily accessible definitions ... they facilitate communication by being readily available to everyone here, it's an easy reference point so that we can be sure we are talking about the same thing.
If I am trying to express an idea that doesn't fit with Webster's definition, it is up to me to find another word, or a combination of words, that make it clear what I'm talking about. It isn't up to Webster to make up a new definition that suits my purposes.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
The purpose of language is to facilitate communication. In order to do that, there needs to be common agreement on what a word means. That is the function of dictionaries. I commonly use Webster's definitions not because I have some sort of faith in Webster, but because they are the most easily accessible definitions ... they facilitate communication by being readily available to everyone here, it's an easy reference point so that we can be sure we are talking about the same thing.
If I am trying to express an idea that doesn't fit with Webster's definition, it is up to me to find another word, or a combination of words, that make it clear what I'm talking about. It isn't up to Webster to make up a new definition that suits my purposes.
It doesn't mean they don't fuck up.
"firm belief in something for which there is no proof " could very well fall under the heading of psychology, something that we all use. i do think there is a gaffe there in webster's on this one. it matches the gaffe in american thinking in a big way, i think. On this subject, in these "debates".
World would be worse off without faith in something greater than ourselves.
Religion has always creates a great discrepancy, which has resulted in several conflicts, some more violent than the other. And nothing has a more violent history than religion, especially Christianity and Islam.
Take away religion and you will take away that discrepancy that exists. Once the discrepancy is gone there would be less reason for conflict.
But faith in something greater than ourselves is something entirely different. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism... all believe in something greater, in that way they're exactly the same, no conflict. But they tried/try to define it and come up with different definitions, conflict.
You ask what would stop us if no one believed in something greater. What stops atheists today? I seriously hope you don't mean Christians only do good because God is watching them and they might loose their ticket to Heaven if they do bad.
World would be worse off without faith in something greater than ourselves.
Religion has always creates a great discrepancy, which has resulted in several conflicts, some more violent than the other. And nothing has a more violent history than religion, especially Christianity and Islam.
Take away religion and you will take away that discrepancy that exists. Once the discrepancy is gone there would be less reason for conflict.
But faith in something greater than ourselves is something entirely different. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism... all believe in something greater, in that way they're exactly the same, no conflict. But they tried/try to define it and come up with different definitions, conflict.
You ask what would stop us if no one believed in something greater. What stops atheists today? I seriously hope you don't mean Christians only do good because God is watching them and they might loose their ticket to Heaven if they do bad.
Bob Dylan is much, much greater than me. I'll put my faith in him.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
a friend stopped by and i asked if he wanted to see why the world is so [messed] up and showed him this thread.
he first said that you usually don't find the most intelligent people sitting on message boards; to which i slapped him in the head.
next he told me about capacity. particularly a persons capacity to love.
for example; if an athiest is insulted by religious symbols; where is the capacity to love their fellow man? if they loved their fellow man they would accept the differences and not only respect their beliefs; but realize the differences leave room to grow.
the religious that worship in exchange for a ticket to heaven have totally missed the point. they wind their gods up on sunday and go through the motions; they want something in exchange and are therefore selfish. love does not grow where selfishness thrives.
those who insist they are right do so as a smoke screen to hide their own doubts. when one finds peace within themselves; there is no longer a need to "sell" what they believe. they realize others are at different points in their journey and since inner peace can only be found within; no amount of selling or preaching will make the journey shorter.
inner peace is a spiritual thing. you cannot see it; you cannot touch or measure it. you cannot prove it exists. but when you make peace with yourself; you and only you know it's there.
a friend stopped by and i asked if he wanted to see why the world is so [messed] up and showed him this thread.
he first said that you usually don't find the most intelligent people sitting on message boards; to which i slapped him in the head.
next he told me about capacity. particularly a persons capacity to love.
for example; if an athiest is insulted by religious symbols; where is the capacity to love their fellow man? if they loved their fellow man they would accept the differences and not only respect their beliefs; but realize the differences leave room to grow.
the religious that worship in exchange for a ticket to heaven have totally missed the point. they wind their gods up on sunday and go through the motions; they want something in exchange and are therefore selfish. love does not grow where selfishness thrives.
those who insist they are right do so as a smoke screen to hide their own doubts. when one finds peace within themselves; there is no longer a need to "sell" what they believe. they realize others are at different points in their journey and since inner peace can only be found within; no amount of selling or preaching will make the journey shorter.
inner peace is a spiritual thing. you cannot see it; you cannot touch or measure it. you cannot prove it exists. but when you make peace with yourself; you and only you know it's there.
i put it in my own words but there you have it.
I agree with you in principle, but it's nothing spiritual. Love is a series of chemical bonds, happiness is synthetic, it's an illusion.
If you want real happiness and peace, you forget about everything and accept who you are. Love is obtained by positive interactions between people.
There is a real scientific basis for all this stuff.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
a friend stopped by and i asked if he wanted to see why the world is so [messed] up and showed him this thread.
he first said that you usually don't find the most intelligent people sitting on message boards; to which i slapped him in the head.
next he told me about capacity. particularly a persons capacity to love.
for example; if an athiest is insulted by religious symbols; where is the capacity to love their fellow man? if they loved their fellow man they would accept the differences and not only respect their beliefs; but realize the differences leave room to grow.
the religious that worship in exchange for a ticket to heaven have totally missed the point. they wind their gods up on sunday and go through the motions; they want something in exchange and are therefore selfish. love does not grow where selfishness thrives.
those who insist they are right do so as a smoke screen to hide their own doubts. when one finds peace within themselves; there is no longer a need to "sell" what they believe. they realize others are at different points in their journey and since inner peace can only be found within; no amount of selling or preaching will make the journey shorter.
inner peace is a spiritual thing. you cannot see it; you cannot touch or measure it. you cannot prove it exists. but when you make peace with yourself; you and only you know it's there.
i put it in my own words but there you have it.
Sounds like you were sitting at our table last night at the bar. That came at me from one of the gents straight across the table almost word for word as what is written here. EERIE to say the least.
Sounds like you were sitting at our table last night at the bar. That came at me from one of the gents straight across the table almost word for word as what is written here. EERIE to say the least.
Same moral influences perhaps. Probably the prevailing moral guide "The Bible".
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Sounds like you were sitting at our table last night at the bar. That came at me from one of the gents straight across the table almost word for word as what is written here. EERIE to say the least.
did you slap him in the head too? hahahahaha just kidding.
after hearing that things made more sense. i can describe inner peace to you but only mine. i can't describe what your inner peace will feel like and therefore i cannot tell you how to find it. because you cannot hold it or see it; it is spiritual. because it is different for everyone; it is spiritual. because you can only find it within yourself; it is spiritual. because it's a state of being and not a state of mind; it is spiritual.
religions are only the vehicle people use to look for it.
did you slap him in the head too? hahahahaha just kidding.
after hearing that things made more sense. i can describe inner peace to you but only mine. i can't describe what your inner peace will feel like and therefore i cannot tell you how to find it. because you cannot hold it or see it; it is spiritual. because it is different for everyone; it is spiritual. because you can only find it within yourself; it is spiritual. because it's a state of being and not a state of mind; it is spiritual.
religions are only the vehicle people use to look for it.
:rolleyes:
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
All that spirituality mumbo-jumbo worked in the past and helped people to obtain extreme emotional states through an illusionary belief. But it's just about 100 years old now and no longer makes sense. Time to step into the future people!
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
What like write it in a contract? Sure, what do I get?
Anyone else want to buy my soul? I can make copies of the contract.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
when you can wake in the morning knowing nothing can touch you; you will find it.
Oh like a real life superhero?
I don't mean to be condescending onelongsong, but that all sounds so.. childish and illinformed.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
when you can wake in the morning knowing nothing can touch you; you will find it.
I happen to think that some of the things you have said in this thread are dead on (no pun intended!) and beautiful. I very much liked what your friend had to say, and apparently evenflow?'s friend, too.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What like write it in a contract? Sure, what do I get?
Anyone else want to buy my soul? I can make copies of the contract.
May I buy it Ryan? I know you don't think you have one. But for want of a better word, may I buy your soul?
I'll keep it safe. Promise.
I think it's really important to keep the soul safe. And seeing as how you don't think you have one, maybe I would make a better custodian of yours until you are able to look after it yourself. And really, it's a good offer.
As you know I'm not religious. Not even a believer in GOD. I believe a lot of the things that you do. But I also believe the essence of an individual, what makes them who they are is more than their brain. So until we can establish if there really is a soul, do you think you could trust me enough to sign yours over to me? I'll make sure that nothing bad comes of it.
I don't mean to be condescending onelongsong, but that all sounds so.. childish and illinformed.
and thus you don't understand. nothing can change me; or my being. if i woke up and someone stole everything in my house; it wouldn't change a thing. i can't explain something you can't yet understand. if you lost your job today would it effect you? i mean change you; or your mood? i don't know how to explain it. i guess you'll have to wait and see.
May I buy it Ryan? I know you don't think you have one. But for want of a better word, may I buy your soul?
I'll keep it safe. Promise.
I think it's really important to keep the soul safe. And seeing as how you don't think you have one, maybe I would make a better custodian of yours until you are able to look after it yourself. And really, it's a good offer.
As you know I'm not religious. Not even a believer in GOD. I believe a lot of the things that you do. But I also believe the essence of an individual, what makes them who they are is more than their brain. So until we can establish if there really is a soul, do you think you could trust me enough to sign yours over to me? I'll make sure that nothing bad comes of it.
Take it, because really, it doesn't exist.
It's our selfish nature that created the illusion of a soul.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
and thus you don't understand. nothing can change me; or my being. if i woke up and someone stole everything in my house; it wouldn't change a thing. i can't explain something you can't yet understand. if you lost your job today would it effect you? i mean change you; or your mood? i don't know how to explain it. i guess you'll have to wait and see.
Everything changes you, wether you realize it or not.
But on a quantitative level, no. I would not be changed.
I'll do you one better, forget getting broken into, how about attempted murder? What about having someone you love, a romantic interest, commit suicide? How about a childhood friend dying from diabetes?
None of that changed me in the sense you imply, if I understand the question. But it's all commited to memory and memory is the basis of our knowledge, which gives rise to our personalities which dictates our decisions.
The evidence is right in you.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I happen to think that some of the things you have said in this thread are dead on (no pun intended!) and beautiful. I very much liked what your friend had to say, and apparently evenflow?'s friend, too.
it made me realize that nothing can change or interfere with my happiness. today is a wonderful day to die. if the stock market crashes; so what? if i lose my legs to an accident; no worries; i still have myself; my being. i want for nothing. i would like many things but i actually want for nothing.
maybe i had an epiphany or something. i look back several years and see the bad things that have happened to be yet it never changed me. once again i'm trying to explain something words cannot explain.
Comments
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Alrighty, I would call that a fairly well-balanced definition, except for this (and this is the part everyone on this thread has chosen to focus on) :
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2)
Why do I have a problem with this part of the definition? Because both sides are pointing the finger at each other and using a book as their reference. On one side is the Bible, on the other side is Websters. For all of you that choose Websters, you're putting your faith in somebody else's idea of what faith is. Other than Webster, you have no proof of what faith is, being that you've denounced it yourself.
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since when did you get religion?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I didn't. I'm as atheistic as ever. I'm just saying the word "faith" is being abused these days. Even by the Dictionary.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I thought he did say that 'My God why have you forsaken me'?
(and is supposed to also be God at the same time)
As for the original question - no idea. I do think religious faith has been responsible for a lot of good over the centuries - heaven and hell are after the all the cleverest way ever thought of combining both the carrott and the stick.
I think we'd all be better off concentrating on improving the republic of Earth than thinking about the Kingdom of heaven though.
If I am trying to express an idea that doesn't fit with Webster's definition, it is up to me to find another word, or a combination of words, that make it clear what I'm talking about. It isn't up to Webster to make up a new definition that suits my purposes.
"firm belief in something for which there is no proof " could very well fall under the heading of psychology, something that we all use. i do think there is a gaffe there in webster's on this one. it matches the gaffe in american thinking in a big way, i think. On this subject, in these "debates".
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Religion has always creates a great discrepancy, which has resulted in several conflicts, some more violent than the other. And nothing has a more violent history than religion, especially Christianity and Islam.
Take away religion and you will take away that discrepancy that exists. Once the discrepancy is gone there would be less reason for conflict.
But faith in something greater than ourselves is something entirely different. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism... all believe in something greater, in that way they're exactly the same, no conflict. But they tried/try to define it and come up with different definitions, conflict.
You ask what would stop us if no one believed in something greater. What stops atheists today? I seriously hope you don't mean Christians only do good because God is watching them and they might loose their ticket to Heaven if they do bad.
naděje umírá poslední
Of course you do, heathen!
naděje umírá poslední
he first said that you usually don't find the most intelligent people sitting on message boards; to which i slapped him in the head.
next he told me about capacity. particularly a persons capacity to love.
for example; if an athiest is insulted by religious symbols; where is the capacity to love their fellow man? if they loved their fellow man they would accept the differences and not only respect their beliefs; but realize the differences leave room to grow.
the religious that worship in exchange for a ticket to heaven have totally missed the point. they wind their gods up on sunday and go through the motions; they want something in exchange and are therefore selfish. love does not grow where selfishness thrives.
those who insist they are right do so as a smoke screen to hide their own doubts. when one finds peace within themselves; there is no longer a need to "sell" what they believe. they realize others are at different points in their journey and since inner peace can only be found within; no amount of selling or preaching will make the journey shorter.
inner peace is a spiritual thing. you cannot see it; you cannot touch or measure it. you cannot prove it exists. but when you make peace with yourself; you and only you know it's there.
i put it in my own words but there you have it.
I agree with you in principle, but it's nothing spiritual. Love is a series of chemical bonds, happiness is synthetic, it's an illusion.
If you want real happiness and peace, you forget about everything and accept who you are. Love is obtained by positive interactions between people.
There is a real scientific basis for all this stuff.
Sounds like you were sitting at our table last night at the bar. That came at me from one of the gents straight across the table almost word for word as what is written here. EERIE to say the least.
Same moral influences perhaps. Probably the prevailing moral guide "The Bible".
did you slap him in the head too? hahahahaha just kidding.
after hearing that things made more sense. i can describe inner peace to you but only mine. i can't describe what your inner peace will feel like and therefore i cannot tell you how to find it. because you cannot hold it or see it; it is spiritual. because it is different for everyone; it is spiritual. because you can only find it within yourself; it is spiritual. because it's a state of being and not a state of mind; it is spiritual.
religions are only the vehicle people use to look for it.
:rolleyes:
All that spirituality mumbo-jumbo worked in the past and helped people to obtain extreme emotional states through an illusionary belief. But it's just about 100 years old now and no longer makes sense. Time to step into the future people!
Care to sell your soul? ala the Simpsons.
What like write it in a contract? Sure, what do I get?
Anyone else want to buy my soul? I can make copies of the contract.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I don't even have one! Neither do you!
when you can wake in the morning knowing nothing can touch you; you will find it.
Oh like a real life superhero?
I don't mean to be condescending onelongsong, but that all sounds so.. childish and illinformed.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
May I buy it Ryan? I know you don't think you have one. But for want of a better word, may I buy your soul?
I'll keep it safe. Promise.
I think it's really important to keep the soul safe. And seeing as how you don't think you have one, maybe I would make a better custodian of yours until you are able to look after it yourself. And really, it's a good offer.
As you know I'm not religious. Not even a believer in GOD. I believe a lot of the things that you do. But I also believe the essence of an individual, what makes them who they are is more than their brain. So until we can establish if there really is a soul, do you think you could trust me enough to sign yours over to me? I'll make sure that nothing bad comes of it.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
and thus you don't understand. nothing can change me; or my being. if i woke up and someone stole everything in my house; it wouldn't change a thing. i can't explain something you can't yet understand. if you lost your job today would it effect you? i mean change you; or your mood? i don't know how to explain it. i guess you'll have to wait and see.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Take it, because really, it doesn't exist.
It's our selfish nature that created the illusion of a soul.
Everything changes you, wether you realize it or not.
But on a quantitative level, no. I would not be changed.
I'll do you one better, forget getting broken into, how about attempted murder? What about having someone you love, a romantic interest, commit suicide? How about a childhood friend dying from diabetes?
None of that changed me in the sense you imply, if I understand the question. But it's all commited to memory and memory is the basis of our knowledge, which gives rise to our personalities which dictates our decisions.
The evidence is right in you.
it made me realize that nothing can change or interfere with my happiness. today is a wonderful day to die. if the stock market crashes; so what? if i lose my legs to an accident; no worries; i still have myself; my being. i want for nothing. i would like many things but i actually want for nothing.
maybe i had an epiphany or something. i look back several years and see the bad things that have happened to be yet it never changed me. once again i'm trying to explain something words cannot explain.