Do you believe in fate?

thelowlightargentina · September 2007

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

definition of:

1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.

2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control: "Marriage and hanging go by destiny" Robert Burton.

3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events: Destiny brought them together.

Do you believe that you create (and are ultimately responsible for) your circumstances in life (barring genetics) past birth?

Or do you switch back and forth as various circumstances arise to challenge you?

I really love the Forrest Gump ending about this subject, and I think I agree with Forrest

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Angelica, illness is bad. If it's not for you then that's great, but illness creates suffering and suffering is never good. AND some illness is so bad that no amount of centering our brains is going to change the fact that we do not want to suffer or die. If you're ok with that then I'm happy for you but this is not the case for millions of people around the world and no amount of contemplating our navels is going to change that.

Suffering doesn't feel good. It's an alarm bell. How do we respond to the alarm bell? We try to shut if off. We want to cover it up. Make it go away. Cut it out. Medicate it out of existence.

Imagine you're driving in your car and your oil light goes off...what do you do? Why...doesn't everyone get out of the car and dismantle the oil light? Afterall, it's bad that something happens to our car.

No wonder our cars end up grinding to a halt, then, sometime in the near future.

Because something does not feel good does not mean it's "bad". It means we think it's bad.

prism · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

well hope you never get it then, because I'd hate for you to go through the head fuck of knowing you did it to yourself.

Exactly!

what a load of crap. a person chooses to get leukemia cause it makes that person's body aligned with being "at-one with the universe"

oookay....someone's delusions are getting the better of their them....or would it be that her delusional brain is perfectly aligned with being at-one with the universe?

angelica · September 2007

prism wrote:

Exactly!

what a load of crap. a person chooses to get leukemia cause it makes that person's body aligned with being "at-one with the universe"

oookay....someone's delusions are getting the better of their them....or would it be that her delusional brain is perfectly aligned with being at-one with the universe?

Are you saying a person with lukemia, that their body exists separately from the universe we live in?

I said their body is operating exactly aligned with all the natural forces around it. Do you disagree?

prism · September 2007

angelica wrote:

Are you saying a person with lukemia, that their body exists separately from the universe we live in?

I said their body is operating exactly aligned with all the natural forces around it. Do you disagree?

I think that you live in your own universe where you can delude yourself into thinking that people bring illness onto themselves

I think that the univese doesn't give a flying fuck who gets cancer, and as it can occur naturally inside the body....it doesn't have fuck all to do with so-called natural forces

angelica · September 2007

prism wrote:

I think that you live in your own universe where you can delude yourself into thinking that people bring illness onto themselves

I think that the univese doesn't give a flying fuck who gets cancer, and as it can occur naturally inside the body....it doesn't have fuck all to do with so-called natural forces

So you don't think that human bodies operate by the laws of the universe that everything else does?

You don't think human bodies are part of nature?

Jeanie · September 2007

angelica wrote:

Suffering doesn't feel good. It's an alarm bell. How do we respond to the alarm bell? We try to shut if off. We want to cover it up. Make it go away. Cut it out. Medicate it out of existence.

Imagine you're driving in your car and your oil light goes off...what do you do? Why...doesn't everyone get out of the car and dismantle the oil light? Afterall, it's bad that something happens to our car.

No wonder our cars end up grinding to a halt, then, sometime in the near future.

Because something does not feel good does not mean it's "bad". It means we think it's bad.

Well I really think you're starting to talk in absolutes here. You are saying that we all want to shut it off and cover it up and medicate it out of existence. I don't think that's correct either. There are no absolutes. Everyone is individual.

If I am in pain or suffering then I would want to alleviate that pain and end that suffering to the best of my ability, either with or without medical intervention. And the same applies to anyone else that I see suffering. I would want to end their suffering and alleviate their pain IF they do not wish to be suffering and they wanted my help.

If the oil light goes on in my car it gets taken to the mechanic. If I suffer pain then I go to the doctor. If neither of these specialists can rectify the situation then I seek alternatives until I have a solution because I do not want my car blowing up because it doesn't have enough oil, just as I do not want to die because of something that could be stopped if I sought medical attention. I don't think I'm unusual there. Seems a fairly standard response.
AND sometimes there is nothing that can be done. The car is cactus, a person is going to die regardless of whether they want to or choose to or not.

Just because something feels good doesn't mean that it is. AND just because someone else thinks something is bad/good doesn't mean it is. We could go on and on here about what is, and what isn't. What is imagined, manifested or fact. But just because you feel that you have reached a pinnacle of enlightenment does not mean that other people have the time, inclination or the belief that this would also benefit them. We are all different. To say that pain isn't bad may be a correct belief in your world but it's not in mine and I'm quite sure it's not in many other people's lives.

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well I really think you're starting to talk in absolutes here. You are saying that we all want to shut it off and cover it up and medicate it out of existence. I don't think that's correct either. There are no absolutes. Everyone is individual.

If I am in pain or suffering then I would want to alleviate that pain and end that suffering to the best of my ability, either with or without medical intervention. And the same applies to anyone else that I see suffering. I would want to end their suffering and alleviate their pain IF they do not wish to be suffering and they wanted my help.

If the oil light goes on in my car it gets taken to the mechanic. If I suffer pain then I go to the doctor. If neither of these specialists can rectify the situation then I seek alternatives until I have a solution because I do not want my car blowing up because it doesn't have enough oil, just as I do not want to die because of something that could be stopped if I sought medical attention. I don't think I'm unusual there. Seems a fairly standard response.
AND sometimes there is nothing that can be done. The car is cactus, a person is going to die regardless of whether they want to or choose to or not.

Just because something feels good doesn't mean that it is. AND just because someone else thinks something is bad/good doesn't mean it is. We could go on and on here about what is, and what isn't. What is imagined, manifested or fact. But just because you feel that you have reached a pinnacle of enlightenment does not mean that other people have the time, inclination or the belief that this would also benefit them. We are all different. To say that pain isn't bad may be a correct belief in your world but it's not in mine and I'm quite sure it's not in many other people's lives.

Obviously you think pain is bad. Do you think your body is bad when it causes you pain?

prism · September 2007

angelica wrote:

So you don't think that human bodies operate by the laws of the universe that everything else does?

You don't think human bodies are part of nature?

of couse human bodies are part of nature, as are cat and zebra bodies.

however if it were simply a matter of operating by the laws of the universe, then every human, cat and zebra body would get leukemia

what part of nature are you? cause it seems like i'm trying to get across to a pile of rocks

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Well I really think you're starting to talk in absolutes here.

I see suffering and illness as functional, like all things in evolution or nature. If I saw it in absolutes, I'd see it as good or bad.

angelica · September 2007

prism wrote:

of couse human bodies are part of nature, as are cat and zebra bodies.

however if it were simply a matter of operating by the laws of the universe, then every human, cat and zebra body would get leukemia

Okay, so you recognize that human bodies must operate by the laws of nature.

So when someone gets lukemia, do they temporarily slip out of the laws of nature, get sick, then slip back in? Or do you recognize that cancer happens within the natural laws of nature?

Jeanie · September 2007

prism wrote:

Exactly!

what a load of crap. a person chooses to get leukemia cause it makes that person's body aligned with being "at-one with the universe" ...

I find the argument that a person is able to mentally manifest illness either conciously or unconciously and also heal it because of their brain about as useful as a religious person telling me that God will decide or to trust in God.
If it works for you then great, but don't be thinking that it's the solution for all and therefore an opportunity to appropriate blame if that isn't the belief system that a person holds.

There are some people that appear to be able to heal themselves through the use of their minds and there is no doubt in my mind that some illness is brought on by a person's physical and mental health however, this is certainly NOT scientifically proven in all diseases or individual cases and one would have to wonder that it just get down to fate for some people. To say that a person brings disease to themselves and pain and suffering and death because they subconciously wanted it or weren't as "intune" with themselves is really offensive in my opinion. Probably more so than someone religious telling me I'm without morals because I'm an athiest.

If someone is ill, then they need to be cared for and nurtured and helped, not have theories about how they caused their own illness levelled at them.

Bu2 · September 2007

I'd like to say that sometimes pain can be a hell of a lot of fun. Being spanked is one of those times, for me.

But when I'm driving along and my oil light flashes on my dashboard, I take my car to the nearest store and buy myself a pint of oil and pour it in and then get home and take my car to my trusted mechanic.

And when I am in enough pain over a toothache, I go to the dentist. When in enough pain over a sharp twinge in my chest or stomach, I go to my family doctor.

And when my emotions hurt, I talk it out with someone I love and trust.

Does this mean I am so in tune with my body that I know when I have a tumor growing somewhere that isn't causing any pain? No. Does this mean I am so in tune with my body that I can feel a vein getting restricted? No. Does this mean I am so in tune with my bones that I can feel when they no longer produce enough calcium? No. Is this my fault? No. Is it fate? No.

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

I find the argument that a person is able to mentally manifest illness either conciously or unconciously and also heal it because of their brain about as useful as a religious person telling me that God will decide or to trust in God.
If it works for you then great, but don't be thinking that it's the solution for all and therefore an opportunity to appropriate blame if that isn't the belief system that a person holds.

There are some people that appear to be able to heal themselves through the use of their minds and there is no doubt in my mind that some illness is brought on by a person's physical and mental health however, this is certainly NOT scientifically proven in all diseases or individual cases and one would have to wonder that it just get down to fate for some people. To say that a person brings disease to themselves and pain and suffering and death because they subconciously wanted it or weren't as "intune" with themselves is really offensive in my opinion. Probably more so than someone religious telling me I'm without morals because I'm an athiest.

If someone is ill, then they need to be cared for and nurtured and helped, not have theories about how they caused their own illness levelled at them.

I hear your opinion, and I accept it. I understand you disagree.

I understand that you don't see what I do.

Jeanie · September 2007

angelica wrote:

Obviously you think pain is bad. Do you think your body is bad when it causes you pain?

Explain to me what is good about endless, long term pain or excrutiating pain.

How many "choices" do those who suffer long term or excrutiating pain have?

I view pain as your body's way of saying something is not right. Because if we were meant to live with pain constantly we would and then it wouldn't be an issue would it? I don't think my "body is bad" when it causes me pain, I think something is wrong.

angelica · September 2007

Bu2 wrote:

I'd like to say that sometimes pain can be a hell of a lot of fun. Being spanked is one of those times, for me.

But when I'm driving along and my oil light flashes on my dashboard, I take my car to the nearest store and buy myself a pint of oil and pour it in and then get home and take my car to my trusted mechanic.

And when I am in enough pain over a toothache, I go to the dentist. When in enough pain over a sharp twinge in my chest or stomach, I go to my family doctor.

And when my emotions hurt, I talk it out with someone I love and trust.

Does this mean I am so in tune with my body that I know when I have a tumor growing somewhere that isn't causing any pain? No. Does this mean I am so in tune with my body that I can feel a vein getting restricted? No. Does this mean I am so in tune with my bones that I can feel when they no longer produce enough calcium? No. Is this my fault? No. Is it fate? No.

I agree that the ego-self or our thoughts doesn't have conscious awareness of what is going on in the body for the most part.

I'm saying that what is going on in the body is regulated by our brains, and all kinds of other aspects of who we are, for example by our immune systems. Our bodies are performing natural and highly intelligent functions, even though we are completely unaware of that. And even when we think our bodies are "bad". And even when we hate our pain. We are never actually separate from our bodies, or from our tumours. Even when we imagine we are.

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Explain to me what is good about endless, long term pain or excrutiating pain.

How many "choices" do those who suffer long term or excrutiating pain have?

I view pain as your body's way of saying something is not right. Because if we were meant to live with pain constantly we would and then it wouldn't be an issue would it? I don't think my "body is bad" when it causes me pain, I think something is wrong.

You said illness is bad. What if illness is in you? Does that mean part of you is bad?

Jeanie · September 2007

angelica wrote:

I see suffering and illness as functional, like all things in evolution or nature. If I saw it in absolutes, I'd see it as good or bad.

Illness and suffering are a part of life, but to say that they're not good or bad diminishes and negates those who are suffering. If you are ill and you're loving it, well great, good for you, but I don't know that there are too many people that do revel in their illness.

Oh you know it's just leukemia, you brought it on yourself and if you were enlightened you could fix it but I guess if you die it's because you chose not to.

I seriously have to wonder at your compassion here angelica. How can you not be empathetic and sympathetic to others when they are suffering?

Jeanie · September 2007

angelica wrote:

I hear your opinion, and I accept it. I understand you disagree.

I understand that you don't see what I do.

Well ditto but perhaps it is you that doesn't see what I do?

angelica · September 2007

Jeanie wrote:

Illness and suffering are a part of life, but to say that they're not good or bad diminishes and negates those who are suffering. If you are ill and you're loving it, well great, good for you, but I don't know that there are too many people that do revel in their illness.

I didn't say illness is "not good or bad". I fully appreciate that in people's experiences, the experience of illness can range from annoying to devastating or horrific.

Oh you know it's just leukemia, you brought it on yourself and if you were enlightened you could fix it but I guess if you die it's because you chose not to.

I seriously have to wonder at your compassion here angelica. How can you not be empathetic and sympathetic to others when they are suffering?

The fact remains that we are fully interconnected with our own bodies at all times. Do you deny that? Do you deny that we are always connected to natural laws?

Do you believe in fate?

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