***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

Cliffy6745

jamminpearls wrote:

I understand War there pal,what i'm saying is teams/gm's that swear by it how have they done? I sure as hell know Mr Bean hasn't won shit by swearing by it.

Do you though? Because you certainly don't understand the fact RBIs rely on so many other factors.

And how the fuck do you know what GMs use WAR/other advanced stats and what don't? I would love to hear this, all you cite is Billy Beane because of a fucking book. The Tampa Bay Rays base almost all of their decisions on advanced stats and value. How did that turn out? They were in the World Series with a $40 million payroll.

Cliffy6745

pjhawks wrote:

on the opposite end of the spectrum are the people who treat WAR like the be-all-end-all

The thing is, you say we use it as the end all be all but we really don't. Any of us who cite WAR will tell you that it is a developing and somewhat flawed stat. Just like the Deadspin article I posted.

In my mind, the triple slash line is best. Tells you exactly what kind of player you are looking at.

Jearlpam0925

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Gotta do it...sorry. I will leave it at this though.

http://deadspin.com/5820878/ryan-howard ... ill-conlin

The original article by Bill Conlin (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phi ... ?viewAll=y) sounds like something a Howard fan-boy like me would write in response to The Fixer's criticism.

Exactly. This is the problem. When you criticize Howard you're taken as someone who doesn't appreciate him. Like I think most of the cob-webbed brain people in this thread(well, only two really) perceive of me. I like having Howard in the 4 hole. Got no problem with it. But let's put this way - in no way whatsoever do I get the same feeling when Howard is up in a key spot against a talented pitcher(or left-hander) as opposed to, say, Utley/Gonzalez/Fielder/Pujols. He's not that guy. He never will be. And to anybody he is, they're just fan-boys looking to defend him at any possible second. When he actually does come through in a big spot, I am happy, but more than anything I'm surprised. With the great baseball players you're not surprised, you're confident/expect/fear. No one fears Howard, other than when they're throwing a fastball. Again, anything Howard gives me in a big spot is a bonus. Does he produce a lot of HR's and RBI(to be a dick, no 'S')? Sure, but that can happen over a 162 game season when you're a GIGANTIC man with a ton of strength/power and people in front of you GET ON BASE. What I suggest is people especially read the part in that article about Polanco going from first to third. What he is not, though, is feared. And until he makes up for looking at 3-2 on a marginal pitch to end the season I don't wanna hear it from anybody.

pjhawks

Cliffy6745 wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

on the opposite end of the spectrum are the people who treat WAR like the be-all-end-all

The thing is, you say we use it as the end all be all but we really don't. Any of us who cite WAR will tell you that it is a developing and somewhat flawed stat. Just like the Deadspin article I posted.

In my mind, the triple slash line is best. Tells you exactly what kind of player you are looking at.

in my mind my fucking eyes are the best and nothing comes close to those. i know greatness when i see it. go back to your yankess thread and pontificate there about Tex vs. Ryan. this horse is dead cliffy - please move on before Fixer chimes in with his usually bs.

Jearlpam0925

Cliffy6745 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

I understand War there pal,what i'm saying is teams/gm's that swear by it how have they done? I sure as hell know Mr Bean hasn't won shit by swearing by it.

Do you though? Because you certainly don't understand the fact RBIs rely on so many other factors.

And how the fuck do you know what GMs use WAR/other advanced stats and what don't? I would love to hear this, all you cite is Billy Beane because of a fucking book. The Tampa Bay Rays base almost all of their decisions on advanced stats and value. How did that turn out? They were in the World Series with a $40 million payroll.

Thank you...aaaaaaaaand....

Cliffy6745 wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

on the opposite end of the spectrum are the people who treat WAR like the be-all-end-all

The thing is, you say we use it as the end all be all but we really don't. Any of us who cite WAR will tell you that it is a developing and somewhat flawed stat. Just like the Deadspin article I posted.

In my mind, the triple slash line is best. Tells you exactly what kind of player you are looking at.

Thank you.

jamminpearls

Cliffy6745 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

I understand War there pal,what i'm saying is teams/gm's that swear by it how have they done? I sure as hell know Mr Bean hasn't won shit by swearing by it.

Do you though? Because you certainly don't understand the fact RBIs rely on so many other factors.

And how the fuck do you know what GMs use WAR/other advanced stats and what don't? I would love to hear this, all you cite is Billy Beane because of a fucking book. The Tampa Bay Rays base almost all of their decisions on advanced stats and value. How did that turn out? They were in the World Series with a $40 million payroll.

First off if you read what i said,i was asking what teams,. Secondly Tampa Bay got there cause they had a shit load of young talent that all jelled at the same time. So once again WHAT teams out there that swear by these stats have won championships?

Cliffy6745

pjhawks wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

on the opposite end of the spectrum are the people who treat WAR like the be-all-end-all

The thing is, you say we use it as the end all be all but we really don't. Any of us who cite WAR will tell you that it is a developing and somewhat flawed stat. Just like the Deadspin article I posted.

In my mind, the triple slash line is best. Tells you exactly what kind of player you are looking at.

in my mind my fucking eyes are the best and nothing comes close to those. i know greatness when i see it. go back to your yankess thread and pontificate there about Tex vs. Ryan. this horse is dead cliffy - please move on before Fixer chimes in with his usually bs.

Goodness gracious. "Eyes" Why again are you not a major league GM? :wave:

pjhawks

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Exactly. This is the problem. When you criticize Howard you're taken as someone who doesn't appreciate him. Like I think most of the cob-webbed brain people in this thread(well, only two really) perceive of me. I like having Howard in the 4 hole. Got no problem with it. But let's put this way - in no way whatsoever do I get the same feeling when Howard is up in a key spot against a talented pitcher(or left-hander) as opposed to, say, Utley/Gonzalez/Fielder/Pujols. He's not that guy. He never will be. And to anybody he is, they're just fan-boys looking to defend him at any possible second. When he actually does come through in a big spot, I am happy, but more than anything I'm surprised. With the great baseball players you're not surprised, you're confident/expect/fear. No one fears Howard, other than when they're throwing a fastball. Again, anything Howard gives me in a big spot is a bonus. Does he produce a lot of HR's and RBI(to be a dick, no 'S')? Sure, but that can happen over a 162 game season when you're a GIGANTIC man with a ton of strength/power and people in front of you GET ON BASE. What I suggest is people especially read the part in that article about Polanco going from first to third. What he is not, though, is feared. And until he makes up for looking at 3-2 on a marginal pitch to end the season I don't wanna hear it from anybody.

howard is way overly-criticized. people expect him to hit 3 home runs every game and never make an out. it's just the way it is around here. and as for not being Pujuls or Gonzalez well fuck every other player in the both leagues can say that since those 2 are pretty much the best offensive players in the game.

and in a big RBI spot i'd much rather have Howard than Utley up. Chase is a setup man. Chase is deteriorating much faster than ryan (granted because of injuries but still).

Jearlpam0925

NASCAR fans, dude. NASCAR fans.

Jearlpam0925

pjhawks wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Exactly. This is the problem. When you criticize Howard you're taken as someone who doesn't appreciate him. Like I think most of the cob-webbed brain people in this thread(well, only two really) perceive of me. I like having Howard in the 4 hole. Got no problem with it. But let's put this way - in no way whatsoever do I get the same feeling when Howard is up in a key spot against a talented pitcher(or left-hander) as opposed to, say, Utley/Gonzalez/Fielder/Pujols. He's not that guy. He never will be. And to anybody he is, they're just fan-boys looking to defend him at any possible second. When he actually does come through in a big spot, I am happy, but more than anything I'm surprised. With the great baseball players you're not surprised, you're confident/expect/fear. No one fears Howard, other than when they're throwing a fastball. Again, anything Howard gives me in a big spot is a bonus. Does he produce a lot of HR's and RBI(to be a dick, no 'S')? Sure, but that can happen over a 162 game season when you're a GIGANTIC man with a ton of strength/power and people in front of you GET ON BASE. What I suggest is people especially read the part in that article about Polanco going from first to third. What he is not, though, is feared. And until he makes up for looking at 3-2 on a marginal pitch to end the season I don't wanna hear it from anybody.

howard is way overly-criticized. people expect him to hit 3 home runs every game and never make an out. it's just the way it is around here. and as for not being Pujuls or Gonzalez well fuck every other player in the both leagues can say that since those 2 are pretty much the best offensive players in the game.

and in a big RBI spot i'd much rather have Howard than Utley up. Chase is a setup man. Chase is deteriorating much faster than ryan (granted because of injuries but still).

You don't want Howard compared to Gonzalez and Pujols, yet you want him paid like it and respected like it? And you wonder why people can't understand your logic.

And Fixer's sweating Ut's sack aside, and your's of Howard's, you can't be seri.....nevermind, I forgot, your eyes, your eyes....

Cliffy6745

jamminpearls wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

I understand War there pal,what i'm saying is teams/gm's that swear by it how have they done? I sure as hell know Mr Bean hasn't won shit by swearing by it.

Do you though? Because you certainly don't understand the fact RBIs rely on so many other factors.

And how the fuck do you know what GMs use WAR/other advanced stats and what don't? I would love to hear this, all you cite is Billy Beane because of a fucking book. The Tampa Bay Rays base almost all of their decisions on advanced stats and value. How did that turn out? They were in the World Series with a $40 million payroll.

First off if you read what i said,i was asking what teams,. Secondly Tampa Bay got there cause they had a shit load of young talent that all jelled at the same time. So once again WHAT teams out there that swear by these stats have won championships?

Yes, they have young talent that they evaluated and acquired using advanced statistics and rating players on value.

Brain Cashman has cited WAR many times. Theo has his OWN set of advanced statistics that he developed to evaluate players, I am sure many of which are similar to whats on FanGraphs and other sites.

Unfortunately, we don't have access into a GMs and front office thinking as much as we would like and when we do, many of the ancient sports writers ask questions that do nothing to get into General Managers mind. I would love to get some insight into their thinking and evaluation process, which I am pretty certain does not often include RBI.

pjhawks

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Goodness gracious. "Eyes" Why again are you not a major league GM? :wave:

wait so actually seeing someone play has no baring on what you think about a guy? jeezus really, seriously? you can tell a lot about a player watching, you know like who is a nut job and who plays the game the right way. you could argue chase utley is the ultimate value of seeing somone with your own eyes. he does things you have to see not read in a fucking book or a chart.

Jearlpam0925

Cliff, what little Dale Earnhardt(sic) Jr., Jr. here is saying that because the Phillies won ONE World Series since 1980 that we are now clearly a dynasty. And there is no way to compare the Rays to the Phillies.

FenwayFaithful

Quick question for you kids...they give Madson the closer spot back when he returns next week, right?

pjhawks

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

You don't want Howard compared to Gonzalez and Pujols, yet you want him paid like it and respected like it? And you wonder why people can't understand your logic.

And Fixer's sweating Ut's sack aside, and your's of Howard's, you can't be seri.....nevermind, I forgot, your eyes, your eyes....

go back about 3 pages and see my comments on contracts. ryan howard is not a worse player because his gm gave him $25 million. that contract is reflection on Amaro not Howard. great players are great whether they are making $414,000 or $25 million.

Jearlpam0925

pjhawks wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

You don't want Howard compared to Gonzalez and Pujols, yet you want him paid like it and respected like it? And you wonder why people can't understand your logic.

And Fixer's sweating Ut's sack aside, and your's of Howard's, you can't be seri.....nevermind, I forgot, your eyes, your eyes....

go back about 3 pages and see my comments on contracts. ryan howard is not a worse player because his gm gave him $25 million. that contract is reflection on Amaro not Howard. great players are great whether they are making $414,000 or $25 million.

Yeah, and he ain't great.

Cliffy6745

pjhawks wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Goodness gracious. "Eyes" Why again are you not a major league GM? :wave:

wait so actually seeing someone play has no baring on what you think about a guy? jeezus really, seriously? you can tell a lot about a player watching, you know like who is a nut job and who plays the game the right way. you could argue chase utley is the ultimate value of seeing somone with your own eyes. he does things you have to see not read in a fucking book or a chart.

This is precisely why I think Chase Utley is a great player and "I will not mention his name" is not. What I see from both of these players is also directly reflected in their career stats that I think are a good evaluation of a players ability.

Sorry fellas, the article was too good not to post.

Cliffy6745

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliff, what little Dale Earnhardt(sic) Jr., Jr. here is saying that because the Phillies won ONE World Series since 1980 that we are now clearly a dynasty. And there is no way to compare the Rays to the Phillies.

Yes, exactly. I love how it's all about winning yet that arguement doesn't really support the argument either.

Jearlpam0925

Cliffy6745 wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Goodness gracious. "Eyes" Why again are you not a major league GM? :wave:

wait so actually seeing someone play has no baring on what you think about a guy? jeezus really, seriously? you can tell a lot about a player watching, you know like who is a nut job and who plays the game the right way. you could argue chase utley is the ultimate value of seeing somone with your own eyes. he does things you have to see not read in a fucking book or a chart.

This is precisely why I think Chase Utley is a great player and "I will not mention his name" is not. What I see from both of these players is also directly reflected in their career stats that I think are a good evaluation of a players ability.

Sorry fellas, the article was too good not to post.

I feel like he's contradicting himself. So both by his eyes and those crazy stats Chase Utley is a great player? I'm missing something. Because he just said with his "eyes" Utley isn't as good as Howard, but now with his "eyes" he is? This is on a whole 'nother level.

Cliffy6745

FenwayFaithful wrote:

Quick question for you kids...they give Madson the closer spot back when he returns next week, right?

You're interrupting