I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
howard back to philly to get reevaluated......oh boy.
This has bad news written all over it.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Man, you two are fucking brutal. It's something new every fucking day with Harry and Lloyd.
1. I do not play fantasy baseball (or football for that matter)
2. WAR is not a fantasy stat. If wins and losses are important, use it, that is basically what the fucking thing calculates.
3. No one here that uses advanced stats has ever said they are the end all, be all. Actually, we have said quite the opposite. But you two simply say "watching" the game is the end all, be all (yet the only team you fucking watch is the Phillies). There can be a middle ground. To think otherwise is completely ignorant.
4. Stats aside, Utley is MUCH better than Ryan Howard because he is a much more difficult out. I am sure if you polled all major league pitchers 9 out of 10 would say they would rather face Howard than Utley with every lefty saying Howard. Plus he can play that thing called defense. It's not even a fucking argument. Anyone who says Howard is better than Utley should never speak anything about baseball again. Then again, you guys compared Howard to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth.
5. I pissed my pants reading this statement
Howard is the best at hitting hr's and rbi's and that is 2 things not one
And another thing, I don't know how many times I have to fucking say it, Bobby Abreu does not have good advanced stats. Do you comprehend anything you read or just keep saying the same shit?
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
Very easy Howard effects the way numerous people see pitches, Ultey dosen't. I said Howard is more important in the batting lineup not all together.It's pretty easy if u actually understand why certain players get certain pitches thrown to them. Why is raul hitting better well he's seeing alot different pitches hitting in front of howard then he'd see hitting in front of chooch or nunez. :roll: :roll:
Man, you two are fucking brutal. It's something new every fucking day with Harry and Lloyd.
1. I do not play fantasy baseball (or football for that matter)
I only play fantasy football.
2. WAR is not a fantasy stat. If wins and losses are important, use it, that is basically what the fucking thing calculates.
Gotcha
3. No one here that uses advanced stats has ever said they are the end all, be all. Actually, we have said quite the opposite. But you two simply say "watching" the game is the end all, be all (yet the only team you fucking watch is the Phillies). There can be a middle ground. To think otherwise is completely ignorant.
I've never said watching the game is end all. I said i don't need some new age stats to tell me Howards a beast.
4. Stats aside, Utley is MUCH better than Ryan Howard because he is a much more difficult out. I am sure if you polled all major league pitchers 9 out of 10 would say they would rather face Howard than Utley with every lefty saying Howard. Plus he can play that thing called defense. It's not even a fucking argument. Anyone who says Howard is better than Utley should never speak anything about baseball again. Then again, you guys compared Howard to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth.
You compared them actually and i said well if u think about it Howards power numbers are on that level. Go back and reread.
5. I pissed my pants reading this statement
Howard is the best at hitting hr's and rbi's and that is 2 things not one
Hr's is a category,Rbi's are a category,how is that hard to understand? Yes a hr equals a rbi but u can get rbi's by hitiing a single as well. If they were the same then he'd only have 40ish rbis instead of the 120-140.
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
when rollins won mvp in '07, was he the best player in the leaugue? ...no. the mvp is not the same as best overall player. the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. he's the only one putting significant hr numbers this year. we've shown we can win for a prolong period of time every time utley goes to the dl. i don't believe we can win for a prolonged period of time without howard though...but we've never really seen it because howard rarely gets hurt, unlike utley. so it is an argument.
not for nothing but buster olney is a person some on here like to cite pretty regularly as being one of the top writers int he game. i would assume he agrees utley is the overall best player on the team, most do. yet when he made his list of the most irreplaceable players in the league howard made the cut. utley?....not on it (and, incidentally, only 3 first baseman were ranked higher than the R6--not 8):
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... id/5333128
It's a very, very short list, and few players in the majors in 2010 are as important to the contending teams for which they play as Pedroia is to the Red Sox. Here's how I'd rank the top 15, with Pedroia in there somewhere:
1. Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals. Of course.
2. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres. Of course.
3. Ubaldo Jimenez, Colorado Rockies. Colorado is 14-1 in the games he has started and 25-34 in its other games.
4. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers. He is the foundation of the Tigers' lineup and has posted your basic .330 batting average/20 homers/63 RBIs performance so far.
5. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins. He is not hitting with the power he showed in 2009, but he is the Twins' leader and has posted a .383 on-base percentage.
6. Jose Reyes, New York Mets. When he started hitting, they started winning.
7. Martin Prado, Atlanta Braves. Some guys in the Braves' lineup have zigged and zagged because of injuries, but Prado has been their best player since June 2009.
8. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays. When he goes into any kind of offensive funk, so do the Rays.
9. Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies. He has shown over and over that he is capable of hoisting that team on his broad shoulders for a month at a time.
10. Andre Ethier, Los Angeles Dodgers. Manny Ramirez gets the attention, but Ethier is the anchor of the lineup, especially in a year in which Matt Kemp has struggled.
11. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds. The bottom line is that if he ever got hurt or stopped producing, the Reds probably would fall out of contention.
12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals. Stephen Strasburg will be the Nats' biggest box-office draw for years to come, but Zimmerman is their barometer right now.
13. Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers. When he started clubbing the ball, the Rangers separated themselves from the rest of the AL West.
14. Josh Johnson, Florida Marlins. Without him, they wouldn't even be in the conversation in the NL East.
By the way: There are no New York Yankees on this list largely because of the depth of their roster. Robinson Cano is a strong MVP candidate, but the rotation is so strong and the supporting cast is good enough that they continue winning in Cano's absence. On the other hand, if Jimenez went down for any reason, the Rockies probably would be finished.
Pedroia's injury truly hurts the Red Sox, writes Dan Shaughnessy. Pedroia had a hunch he was going to get bad news, writes Scott Lauber. In the aftermath of that news, the Red Sox lost Clay Buchholz to a knee injury, although it does not appear to be serious.
i know, i know, now buster olney is an idiot right? :roll:
some of you guys need to get off that high horse every once in a while
And another thing, I don't know how many times I have to fucking say it, Bobby Abreu does not have good advanced stats. Do you comprehend anything you read or just keep saying the same shit?
who the fuck gives a shit, let alone is talking about, that turd?
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
when rollins won mvp in '07, was he the best player in the leaugue? ...no. the mvp is not the same as best overall player. the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. he's the only one putting significant hr numbers this year. we've shown we can win for a prolong period of time every time utley goes to the dl. i don't believe we can win for a prolonged period of time without howard though...but we've never really seen it because howard rarely gets hurt, unlike utley. so it is an argument.
not for nothing but buster olney is a person some on here like to cite pretty regularly as being one of the top writers int he game. i would assume he agrees utley is the overall best player on the team, most do. yet when he made his list of the most irreplaceable players in the league howard made the cut. utley?....not on it (and, incidentally, only 3 first baseman were ranked higher than the R6--not 8):
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... id/5333128
It's a very, very short list, and few players in the majors in 2010 are as important to the contending teams for which they play as Pedroia is to the Red Sox. Here's how I'd rank the top 15, with Pedroia in there somewhere:
1. Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals. Of course.
2. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres. Of course.
3. Ubaldo Jimenez, Colorado Rockies. Colorado is 14-1 in the games he has started and 25-34 in its other games.
4. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers. He is the foundation of the Tigers' lineup and has posted your basic .330 batting average/20 homers/63 RBIs performance so far.
5. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins. He is not hitting with the power he showed in 2009, but he is the Twins' leader and has posted a .383 on-base percentage.
6. Jose Reyes, New York Mets. When he started hitting, they started winning.
7. Martin Prado, Atlanta Braves. Some guys in the Braves' lineup have zigged and zagged because of injuries, but Prado has been their best player since June 2009.
8. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays. When he goes into any kind of offensive funk, so do the Rays.
9. Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies. He has shown over and over that he is capable of hoisting that team on his broad shoulders for a month at a time.
10. Andre Ethier, Los Angeles Dodgers. Manny Ramirez gets the attention, but Ethier is the anchor of the lineup, especially in a year in which Matt Kemp has struggled.
11. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds. The bottom line is that if he ever got hurt or stopped producing, the Reds probably would fall out of contention.
12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals. Stephen Strasburg will be the Nats' biggest box-office draw for years to come, but Zimmerman is their barometer right now.
13. Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers. When he started clubbing the ball, the Rangers separated themselves from the rest of the AL West.
14. Josh Johnson, Florida Marlins. Without him, they wouldn't even be in the conversation in the NL East.
By the way: There are no New York Yankees on this list largely because of the depth of their roster. Robinson Cano is a strong MVP candidate, but the rotation is so strong and the supporting cast is good enough that they continue winning in Cano's absence. On the other hand, if Jimenez went down for any reason, the Rockies probably would be finished.
Pedroia's injury truly hurts the Red Sox, writes Dan Shaughnessy. Pedroia had a hunch he was going to get bad news, writes Scott Lauber. In the aftermath of that news, the Red Sox lost Clay Buchholz to a knee injury, although it does not appear to be serious.
i know, i know, now buster olney is an idiot right? :roll:
some of you guys need to get off that high horse every once in a while
GO. PHILS.
good read,and getting them off there horse isn't possible cause all 3 know everything about baseball.
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
when rollins won mvp in '07, was he the best player in the leaugue? ...no. the mvp is not the same as best overall player. the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. he's the only one putting significant hr numbers this year. we've shown we can win for a prolong period of time every time utley goes to the dl. i don't believe we can win for a prolonged period of time without howard though...but we've never really seen it because howard rarely gets hurt, unlike utley. so it is an argument.
not for nothing but buster olney is a person some on here like to cite pretty regularly as being one of the top writers int he game. i would assume he agrees utley is the overall best player on the team, most do. yet when he made his list of the most irreplaceable players in the league howard made the cut. utley?....not on it (and, incidentally, only 3 first baseman were ranked higher than the R6--not 8):
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... id/5333128
It's a very, very short list, and few players in the majors in 2010 are as important to the contending teams for which they play as Pedroia is to the Red Sox. Here's how I'd rank the top 15, with Pedroia in there somewhere:
1. Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals. Of course.
2. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres. Of course.
3. Ubaldo Jimenez, Colorado Rockies. Colorado is 14-1 in the games he has started and 25-34 in its other games.
4. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers. He is the foundation of the Tigers' lineup and has posted your basic .330 batting average/20 homers/63 RBIs performance so far.
5. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins. He is not hitting with the power he showed in 2009, but he is the Twins' leader and has posted a .383 on-base percentage.
6. Jose Reyes, New York Mets. When he started hitting, they started winning.
7. Martin Prado, Atlanta Braves. Some guys in the Braves' lineup have zigged and zagged because of injuries, but Prado has been their best player since June 2009.
8. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays. When he goes into any kind of offensive funk, so do the Rays.
9. Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies. He has shown over and over that he is capable of hoisting that team on his broad shoulders for a month at a time.
10. Andre Ethier, Los Angeles Dodgers. Manny Ramirez gets the attention, but Ethier is the anchor of the lineup, especially in a year in which Matt Kemp has struggled.
11. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds. The bottom line is that if he ever got hurt or stopped producing, the Reds probably would fall out of contention.
12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals. Stephen Strasburg will be the Nats' biggest box-office draw for years to come, but Zimmerman is their barometer right now.
13. Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers. When he started clubbing the ball, the Rangers separated themselves from the rest of the AL West.
14. Josh Johnson, Florida Marlins. Without him, they wouldn't even be in the conversation in the NL East.
By the way: There are no New York Yankees on this list largely because of the depth of their roster. Robinson Cano is a strong MVP candidate, but the rotation is so strong and the supporting cast is good enough that they continue winning in Cano's absence. On the other hand, if Jimenez went down for any reason, the Rockies probably would be finished.
Pedroia's injury truly hurts the Red Sox, writes Dan Shaughnessy. Pedroia had a hunch he was going to get bad news, writes Scott Lauber. In the aftermath of that news, the Red Sox lost Clay Buchholz to a knee injury, although it does not appear to be serious.
i know, i know, now buster olney is an idiot right? :roll:
some of you guys need to get off that high horse every once in a while
GO. PHILS.
good read,and getting them off there horse isn't possible cause all 3 know everything about baseball.
hey it's all for charity anyway.
everyone needs to relax and think about the kids for a minute or two.
And another thing, I don't know how many times I have to fucking say it, Bobby Abreu does not have good advanced stats. Do you comprehend anything you read or just keep saying the same shit?
who the fuck gives a shit, let alone is talking about, that turd?
And another thing, I don't know how many times I have to fucking say it, Bobby Abreu does not have good advanced stats. Do you comprehend anything you read or just keep saying the same shit?
who the fuck gives a shit, let alone is talking about, that turd?
pjhawks brought him up.
I only brought him up as an example - there was a time when he was here that many people (who only read stats) thought of him as a star because he had a good batting average and great on-base percentage - but he was a complete utter dog.
I only brought him up as an example - there was a time when he was here that many people (who only read stats) thought of him as a star because he had a good batting average and great on-base percentage - but he was a complete utter dog.
Fair enough, I was not here then so I can't comment on it.
so Utley is better than Howard because there is much less competition at 2nd base than 1st base - yeah that makes a lot of sense. again i am just saying that what Howard does is much harder to replace in this lineup period.
WAR - no idea if that is used in fantasy leagues or not - just know its a ridiculous stat made up by some math geeks that has no relevance to actual play on the field. just because a sabermatician puts a formula together doesn't make it relevant guys - please stop with the WAR statistic.
ok, sorry. we'll pretend like it's 1990 and just use RBI, wins, and saves
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
Very easy Howard effects the way numerous people see pitches, Ultey dosen't. I said Howard is more important in the batting lineup not all together.It's pretty easy if u actually understand why certain players get certain pitches thrown to them. Why is raul hitting better well he's seeing alot different pitches hitting in front of howard then he'd see hitting in front of chooch or nunez. :roll: :roll:
look at how many intentional walks howard has gotten over the years. His MVP year it was probably around 20. I'd be willing to bet that it has gone down every year since. He can be pitched to because he's got a billion holes in his swing. Like Cliff said, utley is a much more difficult out (esp vs lefties)
Your talking in circles,at no time did that anwser my statement. Wheter pitchers go after howard more now then before,they 3-5 hitters still see easier pitches BECAUSE of Howard. You know its right but yet cause I'm saying it won't agree.
I would love for someone to explain to me their logic of "I concede that Utley is the best overall player on this team, but Howard is the most important." Wha? Huh? How in the fuck does that make any sense? Gimme 9 Utley's in my lineup over 9 Howard's every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This isn't even an argument.
when rollins won mvp in '07, was he the best player in the leaugue? ...no. the mvp is not the same as best overall player. the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. he's the only one putting significant hr numbers this year. we've shown we can win for a prolong period of time every time utley goes to the dl. i don't believe we can win for a prolonged period of time without howard though...but we've never really seen it because howard rarely gets hurt, unlike utley. so it is an argument.
not for nothing but buster olney is a person some on here like to cite pretty regularly as being one of the top writers int he game. i would assume he agrees utley is the overall best player on the team, most do. yet when he made his list of the most irreplaceable players in the league howard made the cut. utley?....not on it (and, incidentally, only 3 first baseman were ranked higher than the R6--not 8):
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... id/5333128
It's a very, very short list, and few players in the majors in 2010 are as important to the contending teams for which they play as Pedroia is to the Red Sox. Here's how I'd rank the top 15, with Pedroia in there somewhere:
1. Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals. Of course.
2. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres. Of course.
3. Ubaldo Jimenez, Colorado Rockies. Colorado is 14-1 in the games he has started and 25-34 in its other games.
4. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers. He is the foundation of the Tigers' lineup and has posted your basic .330 batting average/20 homers/63 RBIs performance so far.
5. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins. He is not hitting with the power he showed in 2009, but he is the Twins' leader and has posted a .383 on-base percentage.
6. Jose Reyes, New York Mets. When he started hitting, they started winning.
7. Martin Prado, Atlanta Braves. Some guys in the Braves' lineup have zigged and zagged because of injuries, but Prado has been their best player since June 2009.
8. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays. When he goes into any kind of offensive funk, so do the Rays.
9. Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies. He has shown over and over that he is capable of hoisting that team on his broad shoulders for a month at a time.
10. Andre Ethier, Los Angeles Dodgers. Manny Ramirez gets the attention, but Ethier is the anchor of the lineup, especially in a year in which Matt Kemp has struggled.
11. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds. The bottom line is that if he ever got hurt or stopped producing, the Reds probably would fall out of contention.
12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals. Stephen Strasburg will be the Nats' biggest box-office draw for years to come, but Zimmerman is their barometer right now.
13. Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers. When he started clubbing the ball, the Rangers separated themselves from the rest of the AL West.
14. Josh Johnson, Florida Marlins. Without him, they wouldn't even be in the conversation in the NL East.
By the way: There are no New York Yankees on this list largely because of the depth of their roster. Robinson Cano is a strong MVP candidate, but the rotation is so strong and the supporting cast is good enough that they continue winning in Cano's absence. On the other hand, if Jimenez went down for any reason, the Rockies probably would be finished.
Pedroia's injury truly hurts the Red Sox, writes Dan Shaughnessy. Pedroia had a hunch he was going to get bad news, writes Scott Lauber. In the aftermath of that news, the Red Sox lost Clay Buchholz to a knee injury, although it does not appear to be serious.
i know, i know, now buster olney is an idiot right? :roll:
some of you guys need to get off that high horse every once in a while
GO. PHILS.
2 points here.
1 - Olney has fucking Martin Prado listed 7th. Um, yeah. Olney is a great reporter, he's not an analyst. big difference
2 - You say the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. The most important thing about any offense is having guys on base to knock home. That's why OBP and OPS are so important.
I've been watching The Club on MLB Network about the White Sox. Last episode showed some of the GM meetings and how the team analyzed players and prospects. One of the execs said, and I'm paraphrasing here, 'it's all about OBP...we're 9th in the league in runs scored and we're 9th in the league in OBP. that's not a coincidence'
I only brought him up as an example - there was a time when he was here that many people (who only read stats) thought of him as a star because he had a good batting average and great on-base percentage - but he was a complete utter dog.
for the record abreu is my most hated philly athlete of all time
so Utley is better than Howard because there is much less competition at 2nd base than 1st base - yeah that makes a lot of sense. again i am just saying that what Howard does is much harder to replace in this lineup period.
WAR - no idea if that is used in fantasy leagues or not - just know its a ridiculous stat made up by some math geeks that has no relevance to actual play on the field. just because a sabermatician puts a formula together doesn't make it relevant guys - please stop with the WAR statistic.
ok, sorry. we'll pretend like it's 1990 and just use RBI, wins, and saves
The Fixer - look you can use stats but you JUST use stats. there is more to the game than stats, whether it be home runs, rbis, or even WAR. When you base your whole argument on players based on WAR and OPS that is where I have a problem. It's not as simple as you make it. Obviously we agree to disagree and that is fine - i just don't understand your complete and utter hatred for ryan howard and to me your attitude towards him (at least in this thread) is very distasteful as you seem to get personally insulted when any of us defend or back up Howard in any way shape or form. I'm sorry but I can't stand the type of fans who do nothing but rip on our best players on a constant basis. I've seen it from Eric Lindros all the way the Donovan McNabb - it's utterly ridiculous. hard to respect the opinion of someone who comments that the Phils are fine with Ross Gload over Ryan Howard at 1st base.
I'm done guys - i've had enough of arguing about Ryan Howard - 99% of baseball fans know what a star he his, apparantly the other 1% call themselves Phillies fans and are in this thread. i will keep my comments limited from now on to the team and games in general.
Your talking in circles,at no time did that anwser my statement. Wheter pitchers go after howard more now then before,they 3-5 hitters still see easier pitches BECAUSE of Howard. You know its right but yet cause I'm saying it won't agree.
there may be some truth to that, sure. my point is that utley has seen LESS to hit over the last few years becasue pitchers now know they can pitch to howard. that wasn't the case the year he won MVP (when he peaked as a player).
I seriously don't know how to prove or disprove what you're insinuating. I've always thought that lineup protection was a bunch of BS. barry bonds never had a problem and he had jeags boy pedro feliz hitting behind him when he was breaking HR records
Your talking in circles,at no time did that anwser my statement. Wheter pitchers go after howard more now then before,they 3-5 hitters still see easier pitches BECAUSE of Howard. You know its right but yet cause I'm saying it won't agree.
there may be some truth to that, sure. my point is that utley has seen LESS to hit over the last few years becasue pitchers now know they can pitch to howard. that wasn't the case the year he won MVP (when he peaked as a player).
I seriously don't know how to prove or disprove what you're insinuating. I've always thought that lineup protection was a bunch of BS. barry bonds never had a problem and he had jeags boy pedro feliz hitting behind him when he was breaking HR records
This was extensively talked about on the Yanks game last night. Most scouts think lineup protection is bullshit while most players think they get better pitches to hit with protection. The conversation had to do with arod, cano and tex.
so Utley is better than Howard because there is much less competition at 2nd base than 1st base - yeah that makes a lot of sense. again i am just saying that what Howard does is much harder to replace in this lineup period.
WAR - no idea if that is used in fantasy leagues or not - just know its a ridiculous stat made up by some math geeks that has no relevance to actual play on the field. just because a sabermatician puts a formula together doesn't make it relevant guys - please stop with the WAR statistic.
ok, sorry. we'll pretend like it's 1990 and just use RBI, wins, and saves
The Fixer - look you can use stats but you JUST use stats. there is more to the game than stats, whether it be home runs, rbis, or even WAR. When you base your whole argument on players based on WAR and OPS that is where I have a problem. It's not as simple as you make it. Obviously we agree to disagree and that is fine - i just don't understand your complete and utter hatred for ryan howard and to me your attitude towards him (at least in this thread) is very distasteful as you seem to get personally insulted when any of us defend or back up Howard in any way shape or form. I'm sorry but I can't stand the type of fans who do nothing but rip on our best players on a constant basis. I've seen it from Eric Lindros all the way the Donovan McNabb - it's utterly ridiculous. hard to respect the opinion of someone who comments that the Phils are fine with Ross Gload over Ryan Howard at 1st base.
I'm done guys - i've had enough of arguing about Ryan Howard - 99% of baseball fans know what a star he his, apparantly the other 1% call themselves Phillies fans and are in this thread. i will keep my comments limited from now on to the team and games in general.
go Phils.
dude, that's fair enough. Last thing I'm trying to do is be a dick about this.
You and jammin think howard is a superstar...I don't. We don't have to agree. there's no need to take this stuff personally bro...we are fans of the same team
I watch every phils game and I don't use only stats to form my opinions about players. I see howard drop DP throws from SS or consistently boot balls and throw grenades into LF. I see him flail at LH pitching and continually fail to make contact with guys on 3rd and less than 2 outs. These are obvious weaknesses of his that make me think lesser of him as a player.
The stats stuff is just there to supplement my opinions, not form them. Like I've said a million times, stats are not the be all end all, but they are valuable to prove points or reinforce opinions. the fact that howard has a WAR of 2 speaks volumes about his all around play this year.
What amazes me is the logic that because I think Utley is a better player than Howard that I am, for some reason, put in the "1 percent" that doesn't think Howard is a good player. Your ways of deduction amuse me. And this is the same dude who talks down to people when it comes to the Eagles. This is why people outside of Philly think Philly fans even eat their own.
Anyway, back to more important issues like the phils remembering how to fucking win a road series. Doc on the bump tonight, gotta get the first of this series. Hopefully derrek lowe gets shelled. I watched some of that game last night...the mets are playing like zombies. you'd think going into a must-win series for them there would be some emotion. nope
Anyway, back to more important issues like the phils remembering how to fucking win a road series. Doc on the bump tonight, gotta get the first of this series. Hopefully derrek lowe gets shelled. I watched some of that game last night...the mets are playing like zombies. you'd think going into a must-win series for them there would be some emotion. nope
And could it be that the injuries have caught up to Santana? And we all have admired another horrible acquisition by those buffoons?
Anyway, back to more important issues like the phils remembering how to fucking win a road series. Doc on the bump tonight, gotta get the first of this series. Hopefully derrek lowe gets shelled. I watched some of that game last night...the mets are playing like zombies. you'd think going into a must-win series for them there would be some emotion. nope
And could it be that the injuries have caught up to Santana? And we all have admired another horrible acquisition by those buffoons?
yeah, he's not the same. he was a rule 5 guy...wouldn't surprise me if he was on the juice.
jeags, this is for you. sorry man. the 2nd to last sentence is great
WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL UPDATE
Pedro Feliz, he's currently been the worst player in baseball in terms of wins above replacement. The 35-year-old started the season as Houston's everyday third baseman and has continued to receive regular playing time since losing his job to Chris Johnson, despite the fact that he has yet to look like an MLB-quality player this season. His .218/.241/.310 line is truly ugly, and his once-fantastic glove has graded out as well below-average this season. He doesn't walk, he doesn't hit for average, he doesn't hit for power, and he doesn't play good defense. I suppose that's how you put up a minus-1.6 WAR on the season so far.
So they players who face the pitching and who base the opinion on what they face are incorrect but a scout who watches the game and dosen't face it is correct? Is that what your saying? So say u do a job that u think is hard but I think is easy cause I watch u do it. Who's correct u cause u actually know or me who thinks I know. Anyone can have a opinion that's what makes topics like this fun.
So they players who face the pitching and who base the opinion on what they face are incorrect but a scout who watches the game and dosen't face it is correct? Is that what your saying? So say u do a job that u think is hard but I think is easy cause I watch u do it. Who's correct u cause u actually know or me who thinks I know. Anyone can have a opinion that's what makes topics like this fun.
I think a scout looks at location, velocity, pitch type, etc. and sees pitchers approaching players the same way regardless of who is around them. I think with players it may be more mental. Maybe they feel more confident with a top notch player around them and feel mroe comfortable. Remember....
90% of the game is half mental
I don't know. I have never been in either situation. I am not saying it is easy or not, just giving both sides of the discussion.
What amazes me is the logic that because I think Utley is a better player than Howard that I am, for some reason, put in the "1 percent" that doesn't think Howard is a good player. Your ways of deduction amuse me. And this is the same dude who talks down to people when it comes to the Eagles. This is why people outside of Philly think Philly fans even eat their own.
the same thing that bothers me about Eagles fans is the same thing bothering me about this thread and that is the negativity. Why the negativity towards arguably one of the 3-4 best position players in franchise history? i don't understand it at all - same with Eagles fans, some people will just NEVER say anything positive about certain players or coaches. to constantly hear and read negativity all the time, for franchises that have had the greatest winning era's of their histories is nauseating and very frustrating at times. i love talking sports but it way too often degenerates into this negativity - why can't things be gray and not such black and white as great or sucks - there is an in between.
Comments
This has bad news written all over it.
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1. I do not play fantasy baseball (or football for that matter)
2. WAR is not a fantasy stat. If wins and losses are important, use it, that is basically what the fucking thing calculates.
3. No one here that uses advanced stats has ever said they are the end all, be all. Actually, we have said quite the opposite. But you two simply say "watching" the game is the end all, be all (yet the only team you fucking watch is the Phillies). There can be a middle ground. To think otherwise is completely ignorant.
4. Stats aside, Utley is MUCH better than Ryan Howard because he is a much more difficult out. I am sure if you polled all major league pitchers 9 out of 10 would say they would rather face Howard than Utley with every lefty saying Howard. Plus he can play that thing called defense. It's not even a fucking argument. Anyone who says Howard is better than Utley should never speak anything about baseball again. Then again, you guys compared Howard to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth.
5. I pissed my pants reading this statement
Very easy Howard effects the way numerous people see pitches, Ultey dosen't. I said Howard is more important in the batting lineup not all together.It's pretty easy if u actually understand why certain players get certain pitches thrown to them. Why is raul hitting better well he's seeing alot different pitches hitting in front of howard then he'd see hitting in front of chooch or nunez. :roll: :roll:
Hr's is a category,Rbi's are a category,how is that hard to understand? Yes a hr equals a rbi but u can get rbi's by hitiing a single as well. If they were the same then he'd only have 40ish rbis instead of the 120-140.
when rollins won mvp in '07, was he the best player in the leaugue? ...no. the mvp is not the same as best overall player. the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. he's the only one putting significant hr numbers this year. we've shown we can win for a prolong period of time every time utley goes to the dl. i don't believe we can win for a prolonged period of time without howard though...but we've never really seen it because howard rarely gets hurt, unlike utley. so it is an argument.
not for nothing but buster olney is a person some on here like to cite pretty regularly as being one of the top writers int he game. i would assume he agrees utley is the overall best player on the team, most do. yet when he made his list of the most irreplaceable players in the league howard made the cut. utley?....not on it (and, incidentally, only 3 first baseman were ranked higher than the R6--not 8):
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/n ... id/5333128
It's a very, very short list, and few players in the majors in 2010 are as important to the contending teams for which they play as Pedroia is to the Red Sox. Here's how I'd rank the top 15, with Pedroia in there somewhere:
1. Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals. Of course.
2. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres. Of course.
3. Ubaldo Jimenez, Colorado Rockies. Colorado is 14-1 in the games he has started and 25-34 in its other games.
4. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers. He is the foundation of the Tigers' lineup and has posted your basic .330 batting average/20 homers/63 RBIs performance so far.
5. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins. He is not hitting with the power he showed in 2009, but he is the Twins' leader and has posted a .383 on-base percentage.
6. Jose Reyes, New York Mets. When he started hitting, they started winning.
7. Martin Prado, Atlanta Braves. Some guys in the Braves' lineup have zigged and zagged because of injuries, but Prado has been their best player since June 2009.
8. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays. When he goes into any kind of offensive funk, so do the Rays.
9. Ryan Howard, Philadelphia Phillies. He has shown over and over that he is capable of hoisting that team on his broad shoulders for a month at a time.
10. Andre Ethier, Los Angeles Dodgers. Manny Ramirez gets the attention, but Ethier is the anchor of the lineup, especially in a year in which Matt Kemp has struggled.
11. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds. The bottom line is that if he ever got hurt or stopped producing, the Reds probably would fall out of contention.
12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals. Stephen Strasburg will be the Nats' biggest box-office draw for years to come, but Zimmerman is their barometer right now.
13. Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers. When he started clubbing the ball, the Rangers separated themselves from the rest of the AL West.
14. Josh Johnson, Florida Marlins. Without him, they wouldn't even be in the conversation in the NL East.
By the way: There are no New York Yankees on this list largely because of the depth of their roster. Robinson Cano is a strong MVP candidate, but the rotation is so strong and the supporting cast is good enough that they continue winning in Cano's absence. On the other hand, if Jimenez went down for any reason, the Rockies probably would be finished.
Pedroia's injury truly hurts the Red Sox, writes Dan Shaughnessy. Pedroia had a hunch he was going to get bad news, writes Scott Lauber. In the aftermath of that news, the Red Sox lost Clay Buchholz to a knee injury, although it does not appear to be serious.
i know, i know, now buster olney is an idiot right? :roll:
some of you guys need to get off that high horse every once in a while
GO. PHILS.
who the fuck gives a shit, let alone is talking about, that turd?
hey it's all for charity anyway.
everyone needs to relax and think about the kids for a minute or two.
pjhawks brought him up.
I only brought him up as an example - there was a time when he was here that many people (who only read stats) thought of him as a star because he had a good batting average and great on-base percentage - but he was a complete utter dog.
Fair enough, I was not here then so I can't comment on it.
ok, sorry. we'll pretend like it's 1990 and just use RBI, wins, and saves
look at how many intentional walks howard has gotten over the years. His MVP year it was probably around 20. I'd be willing to bet that it has gone down every year since. He can be pitched to because he's got a billion holes in his swing. Like Cliff said, utley is a much more difficult out (esp vs lefties)
2 points here.
1 - Olney has fucking Martin Prado listed 7th. Um, yeah. Olney is a great reporter, he's not an analyst. big difference
2 - You say the phils offense is built around howard knocking everyone home. The most important thing about any offense is having guys on base to knock home. That's why OBP and OPS are so important.
I've been watching The Club on MLB Network about the White Sox. Last episode showed some of the GM meetings and how the team analyzed players and prospects. One of the execs said, and I'm paraphrasing here, 'it's all about OBP...we're 9th in the league in runs scored and we're 9th in the league in OBP. that's not a coincidence'
for the record abreu is my most hated philly athlete of all time
The Fixer - look you can use stats but you JUST use stats. there is more to the game than stats, whether it be home runs, rbis, or even WAR. When you base your whole argument on players based on WAR and OPS that is where I have a problem. It's not as simple as you make it. Obviously we agree to disagree and that is fine - i just don't understand your complete and utter hatred for ryan howard and to me your attitude towards him (at least in this thread) is very distasteful as you seem to get personally insulted when any of us defend or back up Howard in any way shape or form. I'm sorry but I can't stand the type of fans who do nothing but rip on our best players on a constant basis. I've seen it from Eric Lindros all the way the Donovan McNabb - it's utterly ridiculous. hard to respect the opinion of someone who comments that the Phils are fine with Ross Gload over Ryan Howard at 1st base.
I'm done guys - i've had enough of arguing about Ryan Howard - 99% of baseball fans know what a star he his, apparantly the other 1% call themselves Phillies fans and are in this thread. i will keep my comments limited from now on to the team and games in general.
go Phils.
there may be some truth to that, sure. my point is that utley has seen LESS to hit over the last few years becasue pitchers now know they can pitch to howard. that wasn't the case the year he won MVP (when he peaked as a player).
I seriously don't know how to prove or disprove what you're insinuating. I've always thought that lineup protection was a bunch of BS. barry bonds never had a problem and he had jeags boy pedro feliz hitting behind him when he was breaking HR records
This was extensively talked about on the Yanks game last night. Most scouts think lineup protection is bullshit while most players think they get better pitches to hit with protection. The conversation had to do with arod, cano and tex.
dude, that's fair enough. Last thing I'm trying to do is be a dick about this.
You and jammin think howard is a superstar...I don't. We don't have to agree. there's no need to take this stuff personally bro...we are fans of the same team
I watch every phils game and I don't use only stats to form my opinions about players. I see howard drop DP throws from SS or consistently boot balls and throw grenades into LF. I see him flail at LH pitching and continually fail to make contact with guys on 3rd and less than 2 outs. These are obvious weaknesses of his that make me think lesser of him as a player.
The stats stuff is just there to supplement my opinions, not form them. Like I've said a million times, stats are not the be all end all, but they are valuable to prove points or reinforce opinions. the fact that howard has a WAR of 2 speaks volumes about his all around play this year.
And could it be that the injuries have caught up to Santana? And we all have admired another horrible acquisition by those buffoons?
yeah, he's not the same. he was a rule 5 guy...wouldn't surprise me if he was on the juice.
jeags, this is for you. sorry man. the 2nd to last sentence is great
WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL UPDATE
Pedro Feliz, he's currently been the worst player in baseball in terms of wins above replacement. The 35-year-old started the season as Houston's everyday third baseman and has continued to receive regular playing time since losing his job to Chris Johnson, despite the fact that he has yet to look like an MLB-quality player this season. His .218/.241/.310 line is truly ugly, and his once-fantastic glove has graded out as well below-average this season. He doesn't walk, he doesn't hit for average, he doesn't hit for power, and he doesn't play good defense. I suppose that's how you put up a minus-1.6 WAR on the season so far.
I think a scout looks at location, velocity, pitch type, etc. and sees pitchers approaching players the same way regardless of who is around them. I think with players it may be more mental. Maybe they feel more confident with a top notch player around them and feel mroe comfortable. Remember....
90% of the game is half mental
I don't know. I have never been in either situation. I am not saying it is easy or not, just giving both sides of the discussion.
the same thing that bothers me about Eagles fans is the same thing bothering me about this thread and that is the negativity. Why the negativity towards arguably one of the 3-4 best position players in franchise history? i don't understand it at all - same with Eagles fans, some people will just NEVER say anything positive about certain players or coaches. to constantly hear and read negativity all the time, for franchises that have had the greatest winning era's of their histories is nauseating and very frustrating at times. i love talking sports but it way too often degenerates into this negativity - why can't things be gray and not such black and white as great or sucks - there is an in between.