I, for one, don't place any more value on a human life than I do the life of an animal... but that's just me.
Same.
Actually, some people's lives I value less. Horses are generally innocent.
Of course, it's not for me to decide which peoples' lives have less value than others so it's all irrelevant but I sure as hell don't treat human life as any more special than animals. If you show me a creature capable of emotion, I will show you a creature as valuable as a human.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
why are people so compelled to argue for animal right, but few of those same people give an "f" that our government has served to f over people in this country and the world over by bending over for corporations? I guess my main argument is a handful of horses and dogs dying sucks but comparitive to other issues in this world it's relatively meaningless. Is it barbaric? probably. Is it stupid? certainly. But seriously what's worse 1.6 horses dying per 1000, or 1.5 million dead in Iraq? A dogfighting ring or a 30 percent poverty rate in the United States? Michael Vick or Phil Knight?
yes I will be going to preakness in two weeks.
this thread is about cruelty in horseracing... you can find me in the other threads about the Iraq war and such as well....
I'm not judging you or anything. I just find it hard to believe.
If you could either save a human being or save an animal, it would not matter to you which one you saved because they are equally valuable?
Might depend on the situation. Very few people would understand my perspective and I'm not even suggesting that I know it would be the "right" choice, but I'd personally lean towards saving the animal.
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Might depend on the situation. Very few people would understand my perspective and I'm not even suggesting that I know it would be the "right" choice, but I'd personally lean towards saving the animal.
You're right, I don't understand your perspective. Care to elaborate?
Also, if you have a preference, you do place more value on the one than on the other.
You're right, I don't understand your perspective. Care to elaborate?
Also, if you have a preference, you do place more value on the one than on the other.
No. I think I'm already disliked enough 'round these parts. Suffice to say, my philosophies stem from the Cherokee blood in my heart but have evolved into a game of numbers with my white blood logistics. Not to mention the cosmic spider web...
Don't get me started.
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How do you know things are being done to them against their will? You know absolutely nothing about horseracing, yet speak as though you are an expert, but have no interest in actually learning truth. Why would you....it doesn't fit your agenda of ignorance.
Since you care so greatly about these horses, I hope you are actively involved in foundations that help provide homes for retired thoroughbreds. Personally I would recommend the Thoroughbred Retirement Fund and suggest you look up their website. I recently donated $5K to them but that shouldn't stop you from doing what you personally can to help these animals that you claim to care so very deeply about.
By donating to the "thoroughbred retirement fund", do you really mean you bet $5,000 on a race and lost?
this thread is about cruelty in horseracing... you can find me in the other threads about the Iraq war and such as well....
I know that there are few of you out there that have strong opinions on both, but it just seems-on the whole-that the spectacle of the Kentucky Derby and Preakness, and the fact that we witness those death's it has a bigger effect on the general public. You think we'd still be at war if we had the same level of coverage after every soldier died? How about the Olympics or Super Bowl if we gave as much coverage as 8 Bells has had to some kid in Indonesia sewing soccer balls, and cleats for us to be able to enjoy the game?
Like I said in my post I don't necessarily think animal sports are a great idea, but on the grand scale these events are miniscule in scale compared to other things going on.
Finally, I guess I admit that I am a humanist, and place human beings above other animals on the hierarchy of living. That's may not be the best way to think, but I do...sorry.
Actually there was a similar discussion last year when Barbaro was euthanised and I have posted in numerous other threads regarding animal cruelty.
but your post was poignant and clever....
keep up the good work with your quest for 20000 meaningless posts
Maybe the way I was brought up (that animals were functional) has made me think differently about their use in sports, b/c if I remember correctly, generally we agree on most things. It's a weird thing I guess.
I know that there are few of you out there that have strong opinions on both, but it just seems-on the whole-that the spectacle of the Kentucky Derby and Preakness, and the fact that we witness those death's it has a bigger effect on the general public. You think we'd still be at war if we had the same level of coverage after every soldier died? How about the Olympics or Super Bowl if we gave as much coverage as 8 Bells has had to some kid in Indonesia sewing soccer balls, and cleats for us to be able to enjoy the game?
Like I said in my post I don't necessarily think animal sports are a great idea, but on the grand scale these events are miniscule in scale compared to other things going on.
Finally, I guess I admit that I am a humanist, and place human beings above other animals on the hierarchy of living. That's may not be the best way to think, but I do...sorry.
you're right...there certainly are more important topics to explore.
No worries though this will be old news tomorrow when we are discussing the next celebrity that goes to jail.
but today this topic is hot and we'll go back to fretting over the war and oil prices and economic downturns as well as the ongoing soap opera called the primary elections
Maybe the way I was brought up (that animals were functional) has made me think differently about their use in sports, b/c if I remember correctly, generally we agree on most things. It's a weird thing I guess.
I grew up on a farm, we've used horses ( errr....mules) to pull tractors out of the mud. I'm totally acceptable to the use of animals for what I feel are reasonable purpose.
Horseracing just pushes them too hard... any time an animal bleeds from its lungs out its nose after a hard run, just goes beyond reasonable respect toward that animal IMO.
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Bullshit...that's just an excuse...and a very poor one
it's cruelty and ignorant and needs to be stopped
If you felt such passion for this subject matter why didn't you start this thread before what tragically happened on television. I'd have more respect for your thoughts and feelings if you had done this post that way.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I sure hope none of you that have been banging on here about horses running, a natural instinct of theirs by the way, haven't EVER ridden one, because you know they aren't born with a saddle purely for human purposes. Not to mention how we have used them for centuries as work animals.
Face facts people, NOTHING lives in its "natural" state anymore, whatever the hell that was in the first place. The number of horses that would die if we released them all back to their "natural habitat" would be truly staggering, you can't tell me that isn't just as cruel and unusual punishment for such beautiful creatures.
At no point would I support the cruelty of animals but the bottom line is, if a horse doesn't want to run it will not run. Plain and simple. That a hoard of people have capitilized on that is an entirely different issue but I guess that gets lost once PETA gets on board.
If you felt such passion for this subject matter why didn't you start this thread before what tragically happened on television. I'd have more respect for your thoughts and feelings if you had done this post that way.
Peace
Hey buddy... how goes it???
heh I actually posted in a thread last summer along these same lines... can't seem to find it now though.
I did have the Tarot cards on the table last week and that one with the horse skull fell out on the floor does that get me back in your good graces of respect???
I sure hope none of you that have been banging on here about horses running, a natural instinct of theirs by the way, haven't EVER ridden one, because you know they aren't born with a saddle purely for human purposes. Not to mention how we have used them for centuries as work animals.
Face facts people, NOTHING lives in its "natural" state anymore, whatever the hell that was in the first place. The number of horses that would die if we released them all back to their "natural habitat" would be truly staggering, you can't tell me that isn't just as cruel and unusual punishment for such beautiful creatures.
At no point would I support the cruelty of animals but the bottom line is, if a horse doesn't want to run it will not run. Plain and simple. That a hoard of people have capitilized on that is an entirely different issue but I guess that gets lost once PETA gets on board.
your post has confused me
so...if I started beating you with a stick you wouldn't try to escape from me???
i knew the wackos would come out after the Derby. These horses are bred SOLEY for the purpuse of being race horses. These are not show horses or pets, they are THOROUGHBREDS. Thoroughbreds are runners. None of these horses would EVER be born if not for the horse racing industry. As I stated in the Kentucky Derby thread on here - thousands of thoroughbreds raced on saturday in the US. One died on tv. It is sad, don't get me wrong but not the end of the world. A Philly cop was shot to death on sunday yet no threads on that. Let's have some perspective.
Well that statement means nothing to an animal lover!!! Sorry...
And so the lion fell in love with the lamb...,"
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
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heh I actually posted in a thread last summer along these same lines... can't seem to find it now though.
I did have the Tarot cards on the table last week and that one with the horse skull fell out on the floor does that get me back in your good graces of respect???
sorry about those Patriots
No biggie, it's over NY took that title and besides we humans can come back and play again another day unlike that filly who ran a great race. 19-0 in 08-09.
Well, if you have felt this way all along then I most certainly respect your opinion on this subject matter.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I sure hope none of you that have been banging on here about horses running, a natural instinct of theirs by the way, haven't EVER ridden one, because you know they aren't born with a saddle purely for human purposes. Not to mention how we have used them for centuries as work animals.
Face facts people, NOTHING lives in its "natural" state anymore, whatever the hell that was in the first place. The number of horses that would die if we released them all back to their "natural habitat" would be truly staggering, you can't tell me that isn't just as cruel and unusual punishment for such beautiful creatures.
At no point would I support the cruelty of animals but the bottom line is, if a horse doesn't want to run it will not run. Plain and simple. That a hoard of people have capitilized on that is an entirely different issue but I guess that gets lost once PETA gets on board.
hey Jeanie, I thought you didn't like people who mistreated animals???
so...if I started beating you with a stick you wouldn't try to escape from me???
Ditto your response. I fail to see what it has to do with the topic of the thread, but I'll answer. If you started beating me with a stick I'd probably fight for my life and if that failed I'd run. What's your point?
NOPE!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
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I sure hope none of you that have been banging on here about horses running, a natural instinct of theirs by the way, haven't EVER ridden one, because you know they aren't born with a saddle purely for human purposes. Not to mention how we have used them for centuries as work animals.
Face facts people, NOTHING lives in its "natural" state anymore, whatever the hell that was in the first place. The number of horses that would die if we released them all back to their "natural habitat" would be truly staggering, you can't tell me that isn't just as cruel and unusual punishment for such beautiful creatures.
At no point would I support the cruelty of animals but the bottom line is, if a horse doesn't want to run it will not run. Plain and simple. That a hoard of people have capitilized on that is an entirely different issue but I guess that gets lost once PETA gets on board.
You may have a point here that I can understand. Back in the early 90's I used to go to the beach at the Outer Banks in NC. At the far end of the northern island strip near Corolla there used to be wild horses roaming freely in the area.
Over time many of these horses ended up being killed and many injuries to humans driving through where they roam. Finally they had to build a barrier/wall to prevent the wild horses from roaming where humans drive cars many times too fast. So yes not many of these horses roam in their natural habitat these horses now must live in a roadless environment with less natural grass to eat.
A little history on these wild horses, they came to NC off of shipwrecks from Spanish ships in the early 1800's and swam to shore after these ships wrecked on the jagged rocks by hurricane driven winds.
Very beautiful horses and I still miss them.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
hey Jeanie, I thought you didn't like people who mistreated animals???
you haven't flip-fopped on me have you???
I don't like people that mistreat animals, never have, never will, I guess we differ on our interpretation of what constitutes mistreatment and also what the ramifications are for creatures when we take extreme measures on issues.
There are elements of horse racing that I agree are very cruel, including hitting them with the crop and pushing them too far, however I think it would be much smarter to be attempting to change those practices than stopping racing all together because what we'd end up with is a glut of horses that nobody has any use for, and what do you think would happen to them then?
Horses love to run, I don't have a problem with that, or with people getting excited watching them race each other, but how we go about that could certainly stand to see some changes.
It would be great if we lived in a perfect world where all creatures could live in their natural habitat as they were born to do, but the fact remains that habitats are dying, we do use animals for many things including food and I really can't see that stopping so my attitude is that if you love the animals then the best thing we can do is make sure that best practice is always followed and that we limit cruelty as much as we can. It's never acceptable but I doubt very much it will ever cease to be. I'm a realist when it comes to this issue. So no, no flip flop.
My only issue would be the use of the word 'tragedy', and the media's abuse of that word.
I didn't see the race....although I do enjoy horse racing. When I saw the headline "Tragedy Strikes Kentucky Derby", I thought OH SHIT!..maybe someone shot up the place, or a roof collapsed, someone sped through the infield with a 4x4....something of that nature.
Sure, it's sad....and makes you think about the validity of horse racing as a sport, but no where near a tragedy.
You may have a point here that I can understand. Back in the early 90's I used to go to the beach at the Outer Banks in NC. At the far end of the northern island strip near Corolla there used to be wild horses roaming freely in the area.
Over time many of these horses ended up being killed and many injuries to humans driving through where they roam. Finally they had to build a barrier/wall to prevent the wild horses from roaming where humans drive cars many times too fast. So yes not many of these horses roam in their natural habitat these horses now must live in a roadless environment with less natural grass to eat.
A little history on these wild horses, they came to NC off of shipwrecks from Spanish ships in the early 1800's and swam to shore after these ships wrecked on the jagged rocks by hurricane driven winds.
Very beautiful horses and I still miss them.
Peace
Yes! That's exactly the kind of thing I mean. It's so sad to see the ramifications of progress on animals.
The horses do sound beautiful and very courageous! I would miss them too.
Ditto your response. I fail to see what it has to do with the topic of the thread, but I'll answer. If you started beating me with a stick I'd probably fight for my life and if that failed I'd run. What's you're point?
I think you just proved their point. The horse can't fight back and can only run when being beaten by the jockey's stick.
Yes horses can run naturally, but my one-year old son can see that there's nothing natural about a horse race.
I heard on a news radio program that in the US, an average 700 horses die each year due to racing. Their then slaughtered and shipped throughout Europe for human cunsumption.
On a lighter note, there are a few areas in the American west where wild horses and burros are thriveing quite nicely all on their own.
No. I think I'm already disliked enough 'round these parts. Suffice to say, my philosophies stem from the Cherokee blood in my heart but have evolved into a game of numbers with my white blood logistics. Not to mention the cosmic spider web...
Don't get me started.
I can understand that your views are not popular, although I have no idea what you mean
I think you just proved their point. The horse can't fight back and can only run when being beaten by the jockey's stick.
Yes horses can run naturally, but my one-year old son can see that there's nothing natural about a horse race.
Have you ever seen a horse that doesn't want to do something?
There are stringent guidelines for the use of the crop in horse racing.
And given that your one year old son hasn't fully developed yet I hardly think he's an expert on the issue or can even weigh it up. Although I'm sure he's lovely he's not old enough to have an opinion one way or the other so I'm not sure why you're bringing him into it.
Please read this.....it will show you another side to the sport of horse racing.
oxc
~*LIVE~LOVE~LAUGH*~
*May the Peace of the Wilderness be with YOU*
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
— Unknown
Comments
Actually, some people's lives I value less. Horses are generally innocent.
Of course, it's not for me to decide which peoples' lives have less value than others so it's all irrelevant but I sure as hell don't treat human life as any more special than animals. If you show me a creature capable of emotion, I will show you a creature as valuable as a human.
this thread is about cruelty in horseracing... you can find me in the other threads about the Iraq war and such as well....
Might depend on the situation. Very few people would understand my perspective and I'm not even suggesting that I know it would be the "right" choice, but I'd personally lean towards saving the animal.
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Where were you the last 133 years of the Kentucky Derby - or an other horse racing track in the US?
I love how PETA tells you to be up in arms over something - and you people snap to it.
Save it.
Personally, I love going to the track and watch the horse race. Good damn time!!
You're right, I don't understand your perspective. Care to elaborate?
Also, if you have a preference, you do place more value on the one than on the other.
naděje umírá poslední
No. I think I'm already disliked enough 'round these parts. Suffice to say, my philosophies stem from the Cherokee blood in my heart but have evolved into a game of numbers with my white blood logistics. Not to mention the cosmic spider web...
Don't get me started.
Please Support My Writing Habit By Purchasing A Book:
https://www.createspace.com/3437020
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000663025696
http://earthtremors.blogspot.com/
By donating to the "thoroughbred retirement fund", do you really mean you bet $5,000 on a race and lost?
Like I said in my post I don't necessarily think animal sports are a great idea, but on the grand scale these events are miniscule in scale compared to other things going on.
Finally, I guess I admit that I am a humanist, and place human beings above other animals on the hierarchy of living. That's may not be the best way to think, but I do...sorry.
Actually there was a similar discussion last year when Barbaro was euthanised and I have posted in numerous other threads regarding animal cruelty.
but your post was poignant and clever....
keep up the good work with your quest for 20000 meaningless posts
you're right...there certainly are more important topics to explore.
No worries though this will be old news tomorrow when we are discussing the next celebrity that goes to jail.
but today this topic is hot and we'll go back to fretting over the war and oil prices and economic downturns as well as the ongoing soap opera called the primary elections
I grew up on a farm, we've used horses ( errr....mules) to pull tractors out of the mud. I'm totally acceptable to the use of animals for what I feel are reasonable purpose.
Horseracing just pushes them too hard... any time an animal bleeds from its lungs out its nose after a hard run, just goes beyond reasonable respect toward that animal IMO.
If you felt such passion for this subject matter why didn't you start this thread before what tragically happened on television. I'd have more respect for your thoughts and feelings if you had done this post that way.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I sure hope none of you that have been banging on here about horses running, a natural instinct of theirs by the way, haven't EVER ridden one, because you know they aren't born with a saddle purely for human purposes. Not to mention how we have used them for centuries as work animals.
Face facts people, NOTHING lives in its "natural" state anymore, whatever the hell that was in the first place. The number of horses that would die if we released them all back to their "natural habitat" would be truly staggering, you can't tell me that isn't just as cruel and unusual punishment for such beautiful creatures.
At no point would I support the cruelty of animals but the bottom line is, if a horse doesn't want to run it will not run. Plain and simple. That a hoard of people have capitilized on that is an entirely different issue but I guess that gets lost once PETA gets on board.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Hey buddy... how goes it???
heh I actually posted in a thread last summer along these same lines... can't seem to find it now though.
I did have the Tarot cards on the table last week and that one with the horse skull fell out on the floor does that get me back in your good graces of respect???
sorry about those Patriots
your post has confused me
so...if I started beating you with a stick you wouldn't try to escape from me???
Well that statement means nothing to an animal lover!!! Sorry...
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
No biggie, it's over NY took that title and besides we humans can come back and play again another day unlike that filly who ran a great race. 19-0 in 08-09.
Well, if you have felt this way all along then I most certainly respect your opinion on this subject matter.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
hey Jeanie, I thought you didn't like people who mistreated animals???
you haven't flip-fopped on me have you???
Ditto your response. I fail to see what it has to do with the topic of the thread, but I'll answer. If you started beating me with a stick I'd probably fight for my life and if that failed I'd run. What's your point?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
You may have a point here that I can understand. Back in the early 90's I used to go to the beach at the Outer Banks in NC. At the far end of the northern island strip near Corolla there used to be wild horses roaming freely in the area.
Over time many of these horses ended up being killed and many injuries to humans driving through where they roam. Finally they had to build a barrier/wall to prevent the wild horses from roaming where humans drive cars many times too fast. So yes not many of these horses roam in their natural habitat these horses now must live in a roadless environment with less natural grass to eat.
A little history on these wild horses, they came to NC off of shipwrecks from Spanish ships in the early 1800's and swam to shore after these ships wrecked on the jagged rocks by hurricane driven winds.
Very beautiful horses and I still miss them.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I don't like people that mistreat animals, never have, never will, I guess we differ on our interpretation of what constitutes mistreatment and also what the ramifications are for creatures when we take extreme measures on issues.
There are elements of horse racing that I agree are very cruel, including hitting them with the crop and pushing them too far, however I think it would be much smarter to be attempting to change those practices than stopping racing all together because what we'd end up with is a glut of horses that nobody has any use for, and what do you think would happen to them then?
Horses love to run, I don't have a problem with that, or with people getting excited watching them race each other, but how we go about that could certainly stand to see some changes.
It would be great if we lived in a perfect world where all creatures could live in their natural habitat as they were born to do, but the fact remains that habitats are dying, we do use animals for many things including food and I really can't see that stopping so my attitude is that if you love the animals then the best thing we can do is make sure that best practice is always followed and that we limit cruelty as much as we can. It's never acceptable but I doubt very much it will ever cease to be. I'm a realist when it comes to this issue. So no, no flip flop.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I didn't see the race....although I do enjoy horse racing. When I saw the headline "Tragedy Strikes Kentucky Derby", I thought OH SHIT!..maybe someone shot up the place, or a roof collapsed, someone sped through the infield with a 4x4....something of that nature.
Sure, it's sad....and makes you think about the validity of horse racing as a sport, but no where near a tragedy.
Yes! That's exactly the kind of thing I mean. It's so sad to see the ramifications of progress on animals.
The horses do sound beautiful and very courageous! I would miss them too.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I think you just proved their point. The horse can't fight back and can only run when being beaten by the jockey's stick.
Yes horses can run naturally, but my one-year old son can see that there's nothing natural about a horse race.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
On a lighter note, there are a few areas in the American west where wild horses and burros are thriveing quite nicely all on their own.
I can understand that your views are not popular, although I have no idea what you mean
naděje umírá poslední
Have you ever seen a horse that doesn't want to do something?
There are stringent guidelines for the use of the crop in horse racing.
And given that your one year old son hasn't fully developed yet I hardly think he's an expert on the issue or can even weigh it up. Although I'm sure he's lovely he's not old enough to have an opinion one way or the other so I'm not sure why you're bringing him into it.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Please read this.....it will show you another side to the sport of horse racing.
oxc
*May the Peace of the Wilderness be with YOU*
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
— Unknown