This is what I hate about baseball in its current form. I wish the Twins would just keep johan, sign him long term, and the yankees can keep all 3 of their pitching prospects. You have the runaway best pitcher in baseball. KEEP HIM!I felt the same way years ago when Giambi was a free agent. I wanted him to stay with Oakland for the good of baseball. I hate that 25 teams serve as a farm system to the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and a few other teams.
The suspense is killing me. It seems to me the Yankees deal is off as far as Santana is concerned... That leaves the Red Sox, Angels, and Mariners...
At best, I think the Twins are looking to just a one-year extension for Johan.
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"I play good, hard-nosed basketball.
Things happen in the game. Nothing you
can do. I don't go and say,
"I'm gonna beat this guy up."
yeah, i'm with you. And I'm a huge Santana fan. Drafted him in 2 fantasy leagues back when he was a reliever, 2003 or so. That said, I'm excited to have a bunch of kids on the team, and would kind of like to see the payroll go down. I'm tired of the "Well for a $200 million payroll they better win at least the division." I'm actually excited for 2009, first year in the new stadium and Pavano and Giambi are definitely gone (That's $33 mil right there. And I'm still pissed they DFA'ed Phillips while they have American Idle Pavano taking up a spot) and Mussina and Abreu are probably gone (another $27 million)
"Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.
Cashman admitted there's a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
"I'm definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it," Cashman said, according to the AP. "
"Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.
Cashman admitted there's a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
"I'm definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it," Cashman said, according to the AP. "
I couldn't be happier that they look to be hanging on to this young talent. After the 2000 season (and before it, but more-so after), the Yankees have just been throwing talent away for older more seasoned guys.. and while a lot of these guys turned out to help the team (no WS though), no one could argue that the young talent is where it's at.. Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Williams, all guys that were born (or at least raised) in the Yankee system.. Those guys won 4 WS together.. Now it's their turn to teach the younger guys.. Hughes, Melky, Chamberlain, Kennedy.. the list goes on...
Go Yanks!
Abraham Lincoln once said, "If you are a racist, I will attack you with the North."
"Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.
Cashman admitted there's a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
"I'm definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it," Cashman said, according to the AP. "
but hughes could suck in 2008 and 2009 and beyond. or he could be awesome and dominant. honestly, who cares if he wins a cy young in 2012? i thought the whole point was to win a world series and not individual awards?
potential vs. proven and i will take proven every single time.
Here's my dilema...
I really like Hughes and think he is nasty and will only get better. He's an original Yank. Therefore I would love to keep him and Melky. Cano would die without him. I would be overly happy with going for Haren or Bedard and keeping Hughes.
However,....I can't stomache Santana going to Boston. That would just be a killer lineup. Therefore it really put the Yanks in tough position. It's also not everyday a lefty ace cy young power pitcher like Santana becomes available.
It would be a win win for the Yanks if Santana to Boston was not a possibility.
PJ - 36
EV - 5
(**Letterman'02, Irving Plaza, Storytellers, Beacon, ACL, Spectrum 3&4, Bridge School '10**)
"Constant recoil,..sometimes life don't leave you alone."
Let's connect on twitter - @Jeffgorra
However,....I can't stomache Santana going to Boston. That would just be a killer lineup. Therefore it really put the Yanks in tough position. It's also not everyday a lefty ace cy young power pitcher like Santana becomes available.
It would be a win win for the Yanks of Santana to Boston was not a possibility.
I agree.
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Here's my dilema...
I really like Hughes and think he is nasty and will only get better. He's an original Yank. Therefore I would love to keep him and Melky. Cano would die without him. I would be overly happy with going for Haren or Bedard and keeping Hughes.
However,....I can't stomache Santana going to Boston. That would just be a killer lineup. Therefore it really put the Yanks in tough position. It's also not everyday a lefty ace cy young power pitcher like Santana becomes available.
It would be a win win for the Yanks of Santana to Boston was not a possibility.
i don't understand how you would NOT give up hughes, melky and a prospect for santana. hughes is all potential right now (to be good, great, horrible, average, etc). the yanks can go out and buy a replacement for melky. he was only playing because damon was just so inadequate in CF.
do you think that billy beane is NOT going to ask for hughes or kennedy in exchange for haren? everyone knows that joba is the one untouchable so everyone is going to ask for hughes and kennedy.
i still can't imagine the o's trading bedard to either the yanks or red sox.
Please refrain from any and all public comments until there is an agreed-to deal in place. At that time, we will host a press conference where we will make all senior Yankee leadership available to the Press. Answering every phone call from every credentialed writer, while noble, is not the way to conduct yourself.
We need to conduct negotiations in a closed door environment. Opening the kimono for all to see reduces leverage and makes us look foolish (at best) and forces us to overpay (at worst).
I'll call you as soon as we have anything viable to discuss.
Best Regards,
Brian Cashman
General Manager and Senior Vice President of Baseball Operations
I was not impressed with melky this season...he's expendable
I agree that melky is nothing special, but they do need him to play CF. They can't have Damon back out there, his best days are long behind him. If Gardner or someone else is ready for the show, then by all means Melky is expendable
It’s looking like Johan Santana will be suiting up in Boston next season. Word is that the Red Sox will send Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson to Minnesota in order to attain the two-time Cy Young award winner. This leaves the Yankees turning their attentions to Oakland’s Dan Haren...
It’s looking like Johan Santana will be suiting up in Boston next season. Word is that the Red Sox will send Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson to Minnesota in order to attain the two-time Cy Young award winner. This leaves the Yankees turning their attentions to Oakland’s Dan Haren...
well if he does end up in BOSTON yankee fans can be assured of no division titles for next season at least ,no way can the yankees staff stack up against ,SCHILLING,DICEK,SANTANA,BECKET, AND who ever else WAKEFIELD no way as of now the only yankee pitcher that could maybe crack that staff would be maybe WANG ......
It’s looking like Johan Santana will be suiting up in Boston next season. Word is that the Red Sox will send Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson to Minnesota in order to attain the two-time Cy Young award winner. This leaves the Yankees turning their attentions to Oakland’s Dan Haren...
I'm not buying it. Why would the Twins want Coco Crisp? He's expensive AND Not that good.
well if he does end up in BOSTON yankee fans can be assured of no division titles for next season at least ,no way can the yankees staff stack up against ,SCHILLING,DICEK,SANTANA,BECKET, AND who ever else WAKEFIELD no way as of now the only yankee pitcher that could maybe crack that staff would be maybe WANG ......
You mean like when the Red Sox were guaranteed never winning a divion this decade after the Yankees landed ARod? And C'mon. No Yankee pitcher is better than Old Man Schilling or Older Man Wakefield? Matsuzaka was a bust. let's see if he can manage to pitch an entire MLB season next year. Santana I'll give you would be the best pitcher on both staffs. Beckett is coming off a great year, but let's not forget that the year before he had a 5.02 ERA. And in 2003 and 2004 he was a combined 18-17, missing huge chunks of time due to blisters. I'll take Pettitte, Joba and Wang ove ranyone on the Sox besides Beckett and Santana (If that even happens)
Must feel odd for Red Sox fans as they attempt to buy another championship while the Yankees are content to build from withing, and keep their own players
You mean like when the Red Sox were guaranteed never winning a divion this decade after the Yankees landed ARod? And C'mon. No Yankee pitcher is better than Old Man Schilling or Older Man Wakefield? Matsuzaka was a bust. let's see if he can manage to pitch an entire MLB season next year. Santana I'll give you would be the best pitcher on both staffs. Beckett is coming off a great year, but let's not forget that the year before he had a 5.02 ERA. And in 2003 and 2004 he was a combined 18-17, missing huge chunks of time due to blisters. I'll take Pettitte, Joba and Wang ove ranyone on the Sox besides Beckett and Santana (If that even happens)
Must feel odd for Red Sox fans as they attempt to buy another championship while the Yankees are content to build from withing, and keep their own players
Actually the Red Sox Payroll is about 130 mil right now and the Yanks are pushing 200. If the Sox get Santana and unload Crisp in the same deal their payroll will be about the same or a little less than last year's and well under the luxury tax threshold.
You mean like when the Red Sox were guaranteed never winning a divion this decade after the Yankees landed ARod? And C'mon. No Yankee pitcher is better than Old Man Schilling or Older Man Wakefield? Matsuzaka was a bust. let's see if he can manage to pitch an entire MLB season next year. Santana I'll give you would be the best pitcher on both staffs. Beckett is coming off a great year, but let's not forget that the year before he had a 5.02 ERA. And in 2003 and 2004 he was a combined 18-17, missing huge chunks of time due to blisters. I'll take Pettitte, Joba and Wang ove ranyone on the Sox besides Beckett and Santana (If that even happens)
Must feel odd for Red Sox fans as they attempt to buy another championship while the Yankees are content to build from withing, and keep their own players
man i can't agree boston staff is way better in my mind ,DICEK will have a better yr you now what BECKET brings to the table and if you add SANTANA ,i like joba alot but still need to see him throught a whole yr ,WANG didn't respond at all when we needed him these past playoffs i just don't see it like you but then again i'm a pessemist ....
I'm not convinced matsuzaka will be better. In Japan they pitch one day a week, and it's the same day each week. In his last 3 years in japan, he started 25, 28 and 23 games. That's why he broke down and sucked from mid-August on. Maybe they'll condition him better and get a full year out of him in 2008, who knows? And I'm not 100% sold on Beckett. Obviously he was outstanding in 2007. But you can't forget the 5.02 ERA in 2006, or the blisters that wrecked many a season for him. Plus, the Yankees have hit him pretty good since he's been in Boston. Even Santana the Yanks have done pretty well against. Not that they've hammered him or anything, and it will be different with the Boston offense behind him, but usually they get him out of the game after 7.
Hearing more and more rumors about this Johan to Boston trade. Looks like its gonna be Lester, Coco, & 3 prospects.
You gotta be kidding me twins? Worst trade ever! Twins were said to be adament about including Ellsbury and/or Bucholz and now they may get neither and give up the best lefty in the game.
PJ - 36
EV - 5
(**Letterman'02, Irving Plaza, Storytellers, Beacon, ACL, Spectrum 3&4, Bridge School '10**)
"Constant recoil,..sometimes life don't leave you alone."
Let's connect on twitter - @Jeffgorra
An official from one of the two teams said the Twins have still not responded to Boston's proposals for Johan Santana.
ESPN's Jayson Stark says the Twins also haven't talked to the Yankees at all today. It's assumed the Red Sox have two offers out: Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson for Santana and one that replaces Lester and Crisp with Jacoby Ellsbury. The Red Sox were expecting to hear back from the Twins by this morning or afternoon, but the longer this goes on, the more it seems the Twins are exploring all of their alternatives first. Dec. 4 - 3:22 pm et
I'd say go with the Ellsbury deal.
Must feel odd for Red Sox fans as they attempt to buy another championship while the Yankees are content to build from withing, and keep their own players
how exactly is 15-12, 4.40 era, 32 starts, 204.2 IP a bust? don't forget the 200 strikeouts.
and by trading away talent that the red sox drafted and built up in their farm system (crisp the exception, but they traded a highly touted prospect in andy marte away for him) is considered an attempt to buy a championship? as a yankee fan, you really need to take a good, long look in the mirror. you want ATTEMPTING to buy a championship year in and year, look no further than your three years in a row bounced from the playoffs in the first round new york yankees.
more than $100 million for a 4.40 ERA is a bust. he might be better next year, but only if he is conditioned for a MLB season, which he clearly was not in 2007
I'm not convinced matsuzaka will be better. In Japan they pitch one day a week, and it's the same day each week. In his last 3 years in japan, he started 25, 28 and 23 games. That's why he broke down and sucked from mid-August on. Maybe they'll condition him better and get a full year out of him in 2008, who knows? And I'm not 100% sold on Beckett. Obviously he was outstanding in 2007. But you can't forget the 5.02 ERA in 2006, or the blisters that wrecked many a season for him. Plus, the Yankees have hit him pretty good since he's been in Boston. Even Santana the Yanks have done pretty well against. Not that they've hammered him or anything, and it will be different with the Boston offense behind him, but usually they get him out of the game after 7.
I'm just curious - in 8 of his losses or no decisions he pitched 6 + while giving up 2 runs or less. If he wins even 3 of those games he wins 18 games last year. Is he then considered a bust if he is an 18 game winner?
I think this year the Red Sox will be a little more careful with his pitch count and not let him throw a 110+ pitches like he did between June 5th and August 28th in 13 out of 16 starts.
I can't call anyone a bust who held opponents to a .246 batting average which was 8th best in the AL among starting pitchers.
Comments
The suspense is killing me. It seems to me the Yankees deal is off as far as Santana is concerned... That leaves the Red Sox, Angels, and Mariners...
At best, I think the Twins are looking to just a one-year extension for Johan.
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"I play good, hard-nosed basketball.
Things happen in the game. Nothing you
can do. I don't go and say,
"I'm gonna beat this guy up."
scared me there for a sec. I thought it was the Santana deal. Well it's passed 12 a.m. I hope they don't deal Hughes.
Some numbers from the minors
Year Team W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV INN H R ER HR HBP BB SO
2004 A-Lynchburg 8 8 4.33 24 24 1 1 0 131.0 150 72 63 10 5 25 92
2005 A-Lynchburg 4 3 3.91 28 6 0 0 2 78.1 74 40 34 9 2 21 76
2006 AA-Altoona 1 2 4.00 18 1 0 0 1 36.0 41 18 16 4 3 5 27
2006 R-Pirates 1 0 2.92 3 2 0 0 0 12.1 12 4 4 1 0 3 16
about a K per inning
K/BB ratio is outstanding. something they absolutely need. a RP who throws strikes
I hope this deal becomes official because I love it
"Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.
Cashman admitted there's a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
"I'm definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it," Cashman said, according to the AP. "
I couldn't be happier that they look to be hanging on to this young talent. After the 2000 season (and before it, but more-so after), the Yankees have just been throwing talent away for older more seasoned guys.. and while a lot of these guys turned out to help the team (no WS though), no one could argue that the young talent is where it's at.. Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Williams, all guys that were born (or at least raised) in the Yankee system.. Those guys won 4 WS together.. Now it's their turn to teach the younger guys.. Hughes, Melky, Chamberlain, Kennedy.. the list goes on...
Go Yanks!
but hughes could suck in 2008 and 2009 and beyond. or he could be awesome and dominant. honestly, who cares if he wins a cy young in 2012? i thought the whole point was to win a world series and not individual awards?
potential vs. proven and i will take proven every single time.
I really like Hughes and think he is nasty and will only get better. He's an original Yank. Therefore I would love to keep him and Melky. Cano would die without him. I would be overly happy with going for Haren or Bedard and keeping Hughes.
However,....I can't stomache Santana going to Boston. That would just be a killer lineup. Therefore it really put the Yanks in tough position. It's also not everyday a lefty ace cy young power pitcher like Santana becomes available.
It would be a win win for the Yanks if Santana to Boston was not a possibility.
EV - 5
(**Letterman'02, Irving Plaza, Storytellers, Beacon, ACL, Spectrum 3&4, Bridge School '10**)
"Constant recoil,..sometimes life don't leave you alone."
Let's connect on twitter - @Jeffgorra
I agree.
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i don't understand how you would NOT give up hughes, melky and a prospect for santana. hughes is all potential right now (to be good, great, horrible, average, etc). the yanks can go out and buy a replacement for melky. he was only playing because damon was just so inadequate in CF.
do you think that billy beane is NOT going to ask for hughes or kennedy in exchange for haren? everyone knows that joba is the one untouchable so everyone is going to ask for hughes and kennedy.
i still can't imagine the o's trading bedard to either the yanks or red sox.
Dear Hankenstein:
Please refrain from any and all public comments until there is an agreed-to deal in place. At that time, we will host a press conference where we will make all senior Yankee leadership available to the Press. Answering every phone call from every credentialed writer, while noble, is not the way to conduct yourself.
We need to conduct negotiations in a closed door environment. Opening the kimono for all to see reduces leverage and makes us look foolish (at best) and forces us to overpay (at worst).
I'll call you as soon as we have anything viable to discuss.
Best Regards,
Brian Cashman
General Manager and Senior Vice President of Baseball Operations
I agree that melky is nothing special, but they do need him to play CF. They can't have Damon back out there, his best days are long behind him. If Gardner or someone else is ready for the show, then by all means Melky is expendable
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20607408/
It’s looking like Johan Santana will be suiting up in Boston next season. Word is that the Red Sox will send Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson to Minnesota in order to attain the two-time Cy Young award winner. This leaves the Yankees turning their attentions to Oakland’s Dan Haren...
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
well if he does end up in BOSTON yankee fans can be assured of no division titles for next season at least ,no way can the yankees staff stack up against ,SCHILLING,DICEK,SANTANA,BECKET, AND who ever else WAKEFIELD no way as of now the only yankee pitcher that could maybe crack that staff would be maybe WANG ......
I'm not buying it. Why would the Twins want Coco Crisp? He's expensive AND Not that good.
You mean like when the Red Sox were guaranteed never winning a divion this decade after the Yankees landed ARod? And C'mon. No Yankee pitcher is better than Old Man Schilling or Older Man Wakefield? Matsuzaka was a bust. let's see if he can manage to pitch an entire MLB season next year. Santana I'll give you would be the best pitcher on both staffs. Beckett is coming off a great year, but let's not forget that the year before he had a 5.02 ERA. And in 2003 and 2004 he was a combined 18-17, missing huge chunks of time due to blisters. I'll take Pettitte, Joba and Wang ove ranyone on the Sox besides Beckett and Santana (If that even happens)
Must feel odd for Red Sox fans as they attempt to buy another championship while the Yankees are content to build from withing, and keep their own players
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Actually the Red Sox Payroll is about 130 mil right now and the Yanks are pushing 200. If the Sox get Santana and unload Crisp in the same deal their payroll will be about the same or a little less than last year's and well under the luxury tax threshold.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
man i can't agree boston staff is way better in my mind ,DICEK will have a better yr you now what BECKET brings to the table and if you add SANTANA ,i like joba alot but still need to see him throught a whole yr ,WANG didn't respond at all when we needed him these past playoffs i just don't see it like you but then again i'm a pessemist ....
You gotta be kidding me twins? Worst trade ever! Twins were said to be adament about including Ellsbury and/or Bucholz and now they may get neither and give up the best lefty in the game.
EV - 5
(**Letterman'02, Irving Plaza, Storytellers, Beacon, ACL, Spectrum 3&4, Bridge School '10**)
"Constant recoil,..sometimes life don't leave you alone."
Let's connect on twitter - @Jeffgorra
ESPN's Jayson Stark says the Twins also haven't talked to the Yankees at all today. It's assumed the Red Sox have two offers out: Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson for Santana and one that replaces Lester and Crisp with Jacoby Ellsbury. The Red Sox were expecting to hear back from the Twins by this morning or afternoon, but the longer this goes on, the more it seems the Twins are exploring all of their alternatives first. Dec. 4 - 3:22 pm et
I'd say go with the Ellsbury deal.
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how exactly is 15-12, 4.40 era, 32 starts, 204.2 IP a bust? don't forget the 200 strikeouts.
and by trading away talent that the red sox drafted and built up in their farm system (crisp the exception, but they traded a highly touted prospect in andy marte away for him) is considered an attempt to buy a championship? as a yankee fan, you really need to take a good, long look in the mirror. you want ATTEMPTING to buy a championship year in and year, look no further than your three years in a row bounced from the playoffs in the first round new york yankees.
I'm just curious - in 8 of his losses or no decisions he pitched 6 + while giving up 2 runs or less. If he wins even 3 of those games he wins 18 games last year. Is he then considered a bust if he is an 18 game winner?
I think this year the Red Sox will be a little more careful with his pitch count and not let him throw a 110+ pitches like he did between June 5th and August 28th in 13 out of 16 starts.
I can't call anyone a bust who held opponents to a .246 batting average which was 8th best in the AL among starting pitchers.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
You can't be a bust after one season unless you have completely imploded.
Dice-K ERA+ in 2007: 108
Pettitte ERA+ in 2007: 110
Granted, a 108 ERA+ is not worth the money the Red Sox spent on him, but it's way too early to call him a bust.