is sexism more tolerated that racism?

Heineken Helen

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

Don't call me a bitch.

Seriously....

It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.

Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.

If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?

Nope! Maybe again this is a location thing... over here, I know fuck all people who would be offended by bitch... simply cos it can often be used as a term of endearment... or feigning offence. If I was arguing with someone and they called me a bitch, I'd be thinking 'that's pretty weak'. Cos it's just not all that harsh.

Heineken Helen

OysterJam01 wrote:

MM this is an interesting discussion. . . .

I think that rascism and sexism are different and that calling girls sluts, bitches and so fouth is merely employing an adjective to describe a persons characteristics (whether or not such descriptions are true or not).

Very very very well put!

Specifics

Collin wrote:

I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.

Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.

I'm done with this thread.

Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail

Because i found it to be (edit: mostly) meaningless and mostly pointless after reading back thru it 20 mins later. You might want to employ those tactics yourself sometime.

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope! Maybe again this is a location thing... over here, I know fuck all people who would be offended by bitch... simply cos it can often be used as a term of endearment... or feigning offence. If I was arguing with someone and they called me a bitch, I'd be thinking 'that's pretty weak'. Cos it's just not all that harsh.

it is used widespread in an easygoing manner and in easygoing context, thats not an issue, the issue is does the word have a sexist connotation?

anyway, fuck it, im off to email my friend in a huff..:)

Heineken Helen

Specifics wrote:

it is used widespread in an easygoing manner and in easygoing context, thats not an issue, the issue is does the word have a sexist connotation?

Nope... cos people don't think about every word they say and analyse the history and origins of it... and I'd rather things stay that way... otherwise conversations will be pretty fucking boring we could live in an orwellian world where we can only use 'acceptable' words and all others are 'illegal'... OR we could stop looking so bloody deeply into everything!

I'm female and it goes NOWHERE near offending me.

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope... cos people don't think about every word they say and analyse the history and origins of it... and I'd rather things stay that way... otherwise conversations will be pretty fucking boring we could live in an orwellian world where we can only use 'acceptable' words and all others are 'illegal'... OR we could stop looking so bloody deeply into everything!

I'm female and it goes NOWHERE near offending me.

I get a feeling it'd take a lot to offend you!:p

fuck it! i'll go along with it because you're right it's a boring fucking subject and i wish i'd just left it about 3 posts ago!!!:D

_

angelica wrote:

This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.

Exactly.

Heineken Helen

Specifics wrote:

I get a feeling it'd take a lot to offend you!:p

fuck it! i'll go along with it because you're right it's a boring fucking subject and i wish i'd just left it about 3 posts ago!!!:D

It's not that I'm right... I am and I'm not... these are opinions... there's no black and white when it comes to opinions. Lol, it DOES take a good bit to offend me alright... and sometimes I can see how and why people get offended... but a lot of the time I wonder why they bother... seems a lot of effort when, most likely, the offense was not intended.

Besides, what ya gonna do? And should we not have a right to offend eachother anyway? What's wrong with that?

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's not that I'm right... I am and I'm not... these are opinions... there's no black and white when it comes to opinions. Lol, it DOES take a good bit to offend me alright... and sometimes I can see how and why people get offended... but a lot of the time I wonder why they bother... seems a lot of effort when, most likely, the offense was not intended.

Besides, what ya gonna do? And should we not have a right to offend eachother anyway? What's wrong with that?

We have the ability to offend each other, we have the ability to chop off eachothers arms if we want i guess ( although i think theres an issue of 1 arm being left (or right) i suppose ) You got me with the rights thing, i don't know, i guess we have whatever rights we give ourselves.

I'm not arguing rights and wrongs cos personally i find it very hard to work out the whole right and wrong thing, i guess eddie said it best with good or bad ( i prefer the Black Crowes these days anyway ).

But then theres facts, or the truth, and bloody minded as i am being (mostly for a laugh, although i seem to have landed in a humour free zone, guess i have to go away and question myself on that one!) thems the facts!!

Heineken Helen

Specifics wrote:

We have the ability to offend each other, we have the ability to chop off eachothers arms if we want i guess ( although i think theres an issue of 1 arm being left (or right) i suppose ) You got me with the rights thing, i don't know, i guess we have whatever rights we give ourselves.

I'm not arguing rights and wrongs cos personally i find it very hard to work out the whole right and wrong thing, i guess eddie said it best with good or bad ( i prefer the Black Crowes these days anyway ).

But then theres facts, or the truth, and bloody minded as i am being (mostly for a laugh, although i seem to have landed in a humour free zone, guess i have to go away and question myself on that one!) thems the facts!!

I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake

Collin

Heineken Helen wrote:

I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake

I have a friend and he's very very easily offended or hurt might be a better word. He always feels a victim and he feels his actions somehow offend me, or that I'm the victim of his actions. He's always apologizing for everything, he takes everything personally.

I literally can't stand to hang out with him sometimes, because he sucks the fun out of everything. One minute you're all having a good time and the next you have to stop the conversation to explain - what everyone else understands - that you're taking the piss and just having some fun and it's not personal.

We thought if he went out with us regularly he'd see we all do it and everyone's the "victim" at one point and no one apologizes, that he'd stop doing it himself and he'd stop feeling offended or rather feeling hurt. But that's not the case.

She girlfriend broke up with him and I told him I'd still hang out with her too because she'd been my friend almost as long as he's been my friend. "Why, yes of course I understand that, Collin. It's only logical." Then one night I watched a movie with his ex and afterwards we were going to go to the bar, but when we got there she noticed his bike and said she didn't want to go in because she knew he wouldn't be able to handle her presence. I told her we could go somewhere else, but she told me to go ahead anyway without her, basically sarcficing her night out for him. When I came in I told him that I had watched a movie with her, he turned pale, needed to sit down. He thought I did that to hurt him as if I was saying 'I can still hang out with her and you can't'. I had a very long tedious emotional conversation with him (I could have been having a drink and having fun with his ex) when he after literally hours came to the conclusion it was normal that I wouldn't just drop a friend because they were no longer together.

Next week, same scenario, different friend. He also had a long tedious conversation about the exact same thing.

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake

It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone taking offence or not, how they use words, who they are talking to, you can all go away and philosophize the power of words, the effect of words, the context of words, the most boring bullshit about words you can think of, as much as you like.

If everyone stopped talking and found a whole new way to communicate then words would require no meaning. The very fact that people can talk to each other, whether that be to find truth, to have a laugh, to discuss the weather or to worship themselves, means that words have meanings.

I can agree that possibly the best way round it is to take power away from the word by using it casually yourself, learning to ignore it all together or whatever, doesnt change the meaning of the word, otherwise there would be no point in going through that process in the first place.

I really have not the slightest interest in this shit anymore!!!!!

Heineken Helen

Specifics wrote:

It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone taking offence or not, how they use words, who they are talking to, you can all go away and philosophize the power of words, the effect of words, the context of words, the most boring bullshit about words you can think of, as much as you like.

If everyone stopped talking and found a whole new way to communicate then words would require no meaning. The very fact that people can talk to each other, whether that be to find truth, to have a laugh, to discuss the weather or to worship themselves, means that words have meanings.

I can agree that possibly the best way round it is to take power away from the word by using it casually yourself, learning to ignore it all together or whatever, doesnt change the meaning of the word, otherwise there would be no point in going through that process in the first place.

I really have not the slightest interest in this shit anymore!!!!!

I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!

angelica

Heineken Helen wrote:

I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!

This is a great point, and it shows that the words aren't purely objective. People change the meanings all the time.

Especially those who have been wounded, they like to take words and change their experiences by giving them new meanings.

Even anti-sexist rhetoric doesn't necessarily connote the "Truth"...it is a way of using logic/reason to create power for one group. and to give voice to what one group experiences. These dynamics continue to change as groups of people and individuals struggle politically and power dynamics shift.

And still, Specific's point holds true, too.

It's all about perspective.

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!

bore off! yes gay means happy and gay means homosexual, and people use it as a way to slag something thru homophobia, which then becomes more common, but the imagery and feel that goes with the word (which is what its all about isnt it?) can be altered in your head to mean either. You can learn, or just naturally, see bitch as a joke, it can be used as a joke, you might like dogs whatever, you might like being called a female dog, you might even like being abused, who knows, the fact is the word is concentrating on sex and therefore the imagery that goes with that word becomes a sex orientated thing and is sexist.
Whether thats acceptable, unacceptable, necessary or even desired is nothing to do with me!

And whoop de do for the ever so clever Irish the english do that themselves, and go talk to a yank, or adolf hitler over in your referendum thread!

Heineken Helen

Specifics wrote:

bore off! yes gay means happy and gay means homosexual, and people use it as a way to slag something thru homophobia, which then becomes more common, but the imagery and feel that goes with the word (which is what its all about isnt it?) can be altered in your head to mean either. You can learn, or just naturally, see bitch as a joke, it can be used as a joke, you might like dogs whatever, you might like being called a female dog, you might even like being abused, who knows, the fact is the word is concentrating on sex and therefore the imagery that goes with that word becomes a sex orientated thing and is sexist.
Whether thats acceptable, unacceptable, necessary or even desired is nothing to do with me!

And whoop de do for the ever so clever Irish : p the english do that themselves, and go talk to a yank, or adolf hitler over in your referendum thread! : )

ok... and in the meantime you just continue to be continuously offended! seriously though, does it not get boring? Oh perhaps that's why you keep mentioning being bored?

If I laugh at someone calling me a bitch, it is neither an invitation to abuse NOR an admission that I like being abused... I'm still failing to see the connection.

pateljam

Thecure wrote:

why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.

Well... for me the worse word I can say is "cunt".... So I have rarely used it. But the "N" word is pretty damn easy for me to say... I guess since I grew up in the hood, it doesn't have much meaning left...

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

ok... and in the meantime you just continue to be continuously offended! seriously though, does it not get boring? Oh perhaps that's why you keep mentioning being bored?

If I laugh at someone calling me a bitch, it is neither an invitation to abuse NOR an admission that I like being abused... I'm still failing to see the connection.

so choose one of the other options..

yes i am bored of being offended, i see it as baseless philosophy, it offends me, because its pointless from the outset and then i can't move on..

but yar roight in a very real sense, and a deep breath goes a laaang way! and i can be an ignorant, self absorbed prick

and i feel bad about the hitler remark now...but he is a bit of a fascist, maybe if he wasn't german as well the remark wouldnt make me feel so out of order:(

Specifics

i genuinelly do apologise if i have offended anyone, and im pretty sure its possible, i can be offensive!..i have said everything i mean, i could be more diplomatic, but i don't like politics!:) I don't believe im more intelligent or a better person than anyone here, i just can't debate something if it doesnt seem to have any bearing in the real world, and that probably just means im a rubbish philosopher more than anything about anyone elses philosophical ability!

Anyway, I'll probably change my mind and be back arguing like some clumsy dinosaur amongst you beautifull gazelles..:p but right now im of the mind that

1, i may be more cut out for science! so im going to take a look in that direction!

2, i need to get a more sociable and demanding job!

Anyway i guess im just covering my trail hoping that not everyone thinks im a bellend ( a prick/asshole/moron take your pick!..:) )

peas'

angelica

Specifics wrote:

i genuinelly do apologise if i have offended anyone, and im pretty sure its possible, i can be offensive!..i have said everything i mean, i could be more diplomatic, but i don't like politics!:) I don't believe im more intelligent or a better person than anyone here, i just can't debate something if it doesnt seem to have any bearing in the real world, and that probably just means im a rubbish philosopher more than anything about anyone elses philosophical ability!

Anyway, I'll probably change my mind and be back arguing like some clumsy dinosaur amongst you beautifull gazelles..:p but right now im of the mind that

1, i may be more cut out for science! so im going to take a look in that direction!

2, i need to get a more sociable and demanding job!

Anyway i guess im just covering my trail hoping that not everyone thinks im a bellend ( a prick/asshole/moron take your pick!..:) )

peas'

I think your understanding of sexism is the opposite of clumsy -- it's quite sophisticated.