Persecution? I'm sorry I don't. Unfair treatment, yes, but not in the same degree. Major themes of treatment of black people in the US include rape, separating families, little children being sold, being regarded as less than human, not even recognized in front of law, slavery, taken away every freedom, no free speech, no right to start a family, only mate to raise the value of a plantation through more labour force, or to sell the kids as slaves. During this period when white people considered black people less than human the word 'nigger' described their fucked up view of what a black person was.
Please tell me where this has been done to the entire female gender, and how bitch was used like the word nigger.
Does it have to be done to every single member of a gender/race/whatever to count? Or does it count if it happens to an individual or group because of their gender/race/whatever?
I would argue that woman have been (and in many cases, are still being) subjected to everything you listed above.
Here's an interesting question: When a black woman is raped, is she raped because she's black or because she's a woman? When the girls in Mexico are murdered, is it because they're Mexican (or Guatemalan) or because they're women? When a child is sold as a sex slave, is it because she's [whatever] or because she's a woman?
This is where I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about a piori meaning and power. I'm not asking if you think words can be used in a sexist way. I'm asking whether there are any words which you believe are inherently sexist.
That's a tough question. There might be words like that, I can't think of any word right now.
One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from one describing one 'reality' to another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift.
I think this is the case with the word bitch but not with the word nigger.
Does it have to be done to every single member of a gender/race/whatever to count? Or does it count if it happens to an individual or group because of their gender/race/whatever?
Yes, it has to be more than an individual or a smaller group, it doesn't have to be done to every single member but to the majority of the people or as in same percentages if you are talking about the similarities of the words 'nigger' and 'bitch' and the weight of the connotation they carry.
If 99% of all the black people were given the treatment I mentioned before and 1% of the women received a similar treatment I'd say there's a huge difference.
I would argue that woman have been (and in many cases, are still being) subjected to everything you listed above.
The question is, is it as a result of sexism or just plain disregard of humans in general, regardless of gender.
Not that it matters, though. The original argument was about how sexism was more tolerated than racism, back up by the fact that bitch was used more often than nigger and people have different reactions to the two words.
We were not discussing actions, if you want to discuss how sexism is more tolerated than racism and you base your claim on actions, I can debate that too and I'm not sure I'd disagree. But you use the idea that bitch is not regarded as sexist by the majority of people to say sexism is more accepted. I already explained why I disagreed with that.
Here's an interesting question: When a black woman is raped, is she raped because she's black or because she's a woman? When the girls in Mexico are murdered, is it because they're Mexican (or Guatemalan) or because they're women? When a child is sold as a sex slave, is it because she's [whatever] or because she's a woman?
I don't know the answer to these questions. A woman can be raped because she's black or because she's a woman etc.
It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.
Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.
If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?
Are you the official spokesperson of the group it refers to i.e. women? No, you are not. Neither is Helen. You both have different opinions. So, I wouldn't say it's 'end of story'. (Helen would call this a lazy form of debate )
Look, I already explained how I feel about the usage of bitch. We are talking about a horrendous person, not you.
If a person would call all women bitches, that would be sexist, I think. (yet again one could argue if he call every single person a bad name regardless of gender, he'd not be sexist)
This is absolutely disgusting. Never argued there wasn't any violence against women in history. Although, again to have a similar sematic weight, one must look at the whole context. What's the percentage of women were forced into this?
I'm not condoning this, even if it were only one it would be one too many! This is never acceptable.
Violence against woman exists, however, not all violence against women stems from sexism. Likewise not all violence against black people stems from racism. I hit a black guy once and I can assure you there was nothing racist about my actions, if a white guy had done what he did, I would have punched him as well. I would never, however, punch a woman.
I'm not saying there isn't more violence against women (I have no idea actually about the numbers), and I'm definitely not saying it isn't problematic.
Violence against slaves was condoned because of the status slaves had, and they had that status soley based on race. One could say this status had the title 'nigger'.
I could agree that a similar sexist label existed or exists for women and because of this inferior label, the view that women are inferior, violence against women was committed and condoned, I cannot agree that that label was historically linked to the word 'bitch'. Therefore, I believe the two words carry a different semantic weight, which was my point.
i don't do this to downplay what black people went through and i hope that no-one believe that this is my intention.
No worries, I don't think that and would not believe it.
Yes, it has to be more than an individual or a smaller group, it doesn't have to be done to every single member but to the majority of the people or as in same percentages if you are talking about the similarities of the words 'nigger' and 'bitch' and the weight of the connotation they carry.
If 99% of all the black people were given the treatment I mentioned before and 1% of the women received a similar treatment I'd say there's a huge difference.
You say that it doesn't count if we break it down into smaller groups, but you are breaking the black race down into a very specific group of people in a certain location during a certain time period. So I believe your comparison is to a very specific group of white women in the US during that same small time period. That completely disregards the majority of women, who exist worldwide, in various colors, throughout history. You can't use that one tiny minority of women to represent women as a whole.
Or are you comparing black slaves in the US to all women worldwide from the beginning of time to the present and saying only 1% of those women have been persecuted?
We were not discussing actions, if you want to discuss how sexism is more tolerated than racism and you base your claim on actions, I can debate that too and I'm not sure I'd disagree. But you use the idea that bitch is not regarded as sexist by the majority of people to say sexism is more accepted. I already explained why I disagreed with that.
I am merely responding to your claim that nigger is a less acceptable word than bitch because black people were/are treated worse than women. You listed ways in which black people were treated worse than woman. I am saying women are treated that way too.
I don't know the answer to these questions. A woman can be raped because she's black or because she's a woman etc.
But rape is specific to women, not to black people.
(Yes, I realize men can be raped as well, but it's a very rare occurance compared to the rape of women and when it happens it's usually to demasculinize the man, in effect turning him into a woman by treating him as one.)
You say that it doesn't count if we break it down into smaller groups, but you are breaking the black race down into a very specific group of people in a certain location during a certain time period.
I am indeed talking about a specific group, however, the world nigger was not confined to define this group, it applied to all black people, regardless of location.
So I believe your comparison is to a very specific group of white women in the US during that same small time period. That completely disregards the majority of women, who exist worldwide, in various colors, throughout history. You can't use that one tiny minority of women to represent women as a whole.
We are talking about the word bitch, wich is an English word. You say bitch is historically linked to abuse of women or sexism just like the word nigger is historically linked to abuse of black people and thus to racism. The word bitch cannot be historically linked to sexism in France, Mexico, Thailand because English is not the language there. So in order for it to be historically linked to sexism, like nigger is linked to racism, it has to be an example from a English speaking nation.
Or are you comparing black slaves in the US to all women worldwide from the beginning of time to the present and saying only 1% of those women have been persecuted?
No.
I am merely responding to your claim that nigger is a less acceptable word than bitch because black people were/are treated worse than women. You listed ways in which black people were treated worse than woman. I am saying women are treated that way too.
You are twisting my words, I did not claim that. I have stated plenty of times why I believe the two words don't have the same weight.
But rape is specific to women, not to black people.
Rape can be a racist crime i.e. with the intent of hurting someone of a specific race. Then it is race related, not gender related.
"Female slaves are at highest risk of sexual abuse and sexual slavery."
This is not a sexist thing per se.
This is well over two thousand years old. And I disagree with a lot of things in the OT, the depiction of women is one.
This is absolutely disgusting. Never argued there wasn't any violence against women in history. Although, again to have a similar sematic weight, one must look at the whole context. What's the percentage of women were forced into this?
I'm not condoning this, even if it were only one it would be one too many! This is never acceptable.
Violence against woman exists, however, not all violence against women stems from sexism. Likewise not all violence against black people stems from racism. I hit a black guy once and I can assure you there was nothing racist about my actions, if a white guy had done what he did, I would have punched him as well. I would never, however, punch a woman.
I'm not saying there isn't more violence against women (I have no idea actually about the numbers), and I'm definitely not saying it isn't problematic.
Violence against slaves was condoned because of the status slaves had, and they had that status soley based on race. One could say this status had the title 'nigger'.
I could agree that a similar sexist label existed or exists for women and because of this inferior label, the view that women are inferior, violence against women was committed and condoned, I cannot agree that that label was historically linked to the word 'bitch'. Therefore, I believe the two words carry a different semantic weight, which was my point.
No worries, I don't think that and would not believe it.
Genital mutilation again is not linked with the word bitch, neither is femicide.
to begin, i have to say sorry because i think i may have made this tread move away from sexism in general to now talking about one word. however, i would say that i don't agree with your statement abotu your quote about that female sexual abuse is not sexism per ce. i believe that it is and the reason that i say this is that the people who are abusing those women are doing so becuase they don't feel that those women are not on the same level as they are. and from my defintion that i posted before that you agree with that is sexism.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
to begin, i have to say sorry because i think i may have made this tread move away from sexism in general to now talking about one word. however, i would say that i don't agree with your statement abotu your quote about that female sexual abuse is not sexism per ce. i believe that it is and the reason that i say this is that the people who are abusing those women are doing so becuase they don't feel that those women are not on the same level as they are. and from my defintion that i posted before that you agree with that is sexism.
Show me where I said female sexual abuse is not sexism per se.
why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.
My answer to this is that these words do not carry the same semantic weight as the word nigger, thus there is a difference in perception of these words. I think these words are not linked to sexism like 'nigger' is linked to racism.
My argument is this:
The word 'nigger' has this historic connotation, which we all know and we can easily tell where and when it got it's extremely negative connotation. This word was used to describe a whole race. The link is clearly there.
I don't think there has been a historic situation in which 'slut', 'bitch' or 'tramp' was used in the same way to describe the whole female gender . The link between sexism and these words is not there as it is between 'nigger' and racism.
I asked you to give me an example. You cited many examples of violence against women, some sexist, some not. But not any of these actions was historically linked to the word 'bitch', 'slut' or 'tramp'.
In response to the original question: Yes, I do think sexism is more tolerated than racism. As a society, we haven't even gotten so far as to be able/willing to recognize it - just as was the case with racism many years ago. My only solace is in seeing how much progress has been made with racism and hoping that someday we'll make the same progress on this front. Conversations like these just remind me of my despair that it won't happen in my lifetime. :(
Oh well. I'm off to have a good weekend. Hope everyone else does the same.
In response to the original question: Yes, I do think sexism is more tolerated than racism. As a society, we haven't even gotten so far as to be able/willing to recognize it - just as was the case with racism many years ago. My only solace is in seeing how much progress has been made with racism and hoping that someday we'll make the same progress on this front. Conversations like these just remind me of my despair that it won't happen in my lifetime. :(
Oh well. I'm off to have a good weekend. Hope everyone else does the same.
Do you base this on the notion that the word bitch is more accepted than the word nigger?
I'm sorry that I keep bringing this up but I feel like I'm being targeted here as a sexist because I don't feel that the usage of the words bitch and nigger are a good gauge for measuring racism and sexism in society.
I asked quite a few times to link the word bitch to specific acts of violence or hatred or discrimination against women like the word nigger is historically linked to racism and acts of violence against black people because of their race. You have not provided an example. You have provided many examples of violence and sexism, but you have not shown the link with the word bitch, which is what I ask for.
I feel this is important because of how your question is asked, you imply that the usage of bitch suggests that sexism is more tolerated than racism because it is less looked down upon by society than the usage of the word nigger.
My claim is that society doesn't see it as a sexist word because the sexist connotation isn't there and certainly not in the same way as the word nigger has a racist connotation, not even close.
Several of you described bitch as a demeaning term. This is correct, however, this doesn't necessarily mean it is sexist. The word 'asshole', which you seem to agree isn't sexist, is also a demeaning term. Any insult is. An insult is by definition demeaning and insulting, whether it is applied to men or women.
You pointed out that bitch refers to the female gender specifically. It does. This, I think, does not make it sexist either.
When a woman is obnoxious, rude, arrogant, selfish, mean, unpleasant one can call her an asshole and it is not sexist. You are using a word to describe her behaviour. Similarly you could use the word bitch. Bitch has an additional gender connotation, like you said, and we know because it originated from the meaning of 'female dog'. But you are still using a word to describe her behaviour. By using a female word you are merely acknowledging her gender. I don't believe there's anything wrong with seeing differences between men and women. I believe men are women are equal but they are certainly not the same. To go as far as saying that the acknowledgement of gender in an insult is sexist is absurd. We accept the difference in gender in ordinary speech constantly (waiter - waitress; the desciption is the same, the only difference in the words is gender) but when we acknowledge it in offensive speech (asshole - jerk - bitch; the description is the same, the only difference is gender) it somehow becomes sexist?
Also note that I have been talking about a horrendous woman, or utterance expressed in anger. If a man were to refer to all women with the word bitch and not just to the girl who cheated on him with his best friend and took all his cd's and his two pearl jam tickets or to the neighbour girl who poured rat poison in his dog's water, then I would definitely agree it is sexism. Although, I should add that it's not sexism because of the word, but because of his attitude towards women. If he used 'trash' to refer to all women, it would of course also be sexist, although trash itself is not a feminine word.
In the other cases I'd say it's an expression of anger, an insult, a description of behaviour not related to gender. Or only related to gender because the object of his anger is the actions or behaviour of a female person. The focus is on the actions or behaviour or characteristics, not gender.
You could ask if it's 'okay' to call a black person nigger in anger or call black thugs, niggers. Well, whether it's okay or not is not my call. I would hope, though, that one would see the difference between a person who called a black man 'nigger' once in a fit of anger because this man stole his money and someone who always refers to black people as niggers.
But I think I should add this one more time, although I have said it plenty of times before; the connotation of nigger is a heavier one, one that is historically and presently specifically linked to race and not behaviour.
Anyway, if you want to talk about whether sexism is more tolerated than racism I'd be happy to join you, however, I don't agree with the reason you based your claim on. You could have dug up official numbers, for instance. I'm not sure those numbers would prove your claim, though. I'm interested in this topic but I thought your initial claim was and is absurd.
If you want to talk about violence against women, again, I would definitely join you, however, when you claim all violence against women is sexist, I don't agree either.
And furthermore, somewhere in this thread someone wrote men cannot be the victim of sexism, I forgot who it was. I didn't respond to it at the time but I will now; that is a 'sexist' claim.
We all agree on the definiton of sexism; the belief that one gender is inferior. Regardless of power structures in modern society, one can always be the victim of sexism regardless of sex. It is foolish to believe otherwise.
I see to many social distortions and issues to even fathom a single answer to such a posed question. I have seen both issues weigh heavy on American society.
having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.
If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.
Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.
Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.
why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.
no shit......
And so the lion fell in love with the lamb...,"
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
I don’t know why I’m allowing myself to be sucked back into this conversation, which is obviously going nowhere – especially when I’m trying to just enjoy my weekend. I guess I can’t help it because sexism is such an important topic to me.
I think your first statement is your most important one. You are arguing so vehemently because you are taking this personally and believe you are being targeted as a sexist. But, as I’ve said before, no one is calling you a sexist. This conversation is not about you. It’s about the power and meaning of words.
In my experience, defensiveness is a common response from men when being asked to consider a broader scope of sexism. That makes sense. They consider themselves to be good guys and don’t like the thought that something they may do might serve to marginalize the women they love.
But the reason I feel that sexism is more tolerated is because, in my opinion, there are many, many sexist aspects of society that go unrecognized – and are therefore upheld – not just by “bad” guys, but by “good” guys and women alike.
Once again, that does not mean to say that any individual is a sexist. That would imply that sexism defines who they are. There are few people in the world to whom I think that would apply. I am merely referring to behaviors and beliefs that I believe support our patriarchal way of life. And we are ALL guilty of them at some time or another – including myself.
You said we all agree that sexism is defined as the belief that one gender is inferior to the other – but I don’t agree to this. I think this is a very simplified, narrow definition. Sexism isn’t just about beliefs; it’s also about actions (and inactions). One doesn’t have to believe in something to propagate it. It’s also not specifically about inferiority per se. It’s also about disrespect, marginalization, subjugation, disempowerment, etc.
This is one reason I feel that the “competition” about whether black people or women were more mistreated is inappropriate. And it’s why I don’t think linking “bitch” to violence is relevant. I think you’re right that in the United States in the present time “bitch” doesn’t hold the same weight/connotation as “nigger” – meaning that people don’t see it as such a bad word. But I believe this was exactly the original poster’s point (correct me if I’m wrong, OP). You could say that since “bitch” doesn’t have the same weight it isn’t a sexist word and therefore the acceptance of its use doesn’t indicate a greater tolerance of sexism. But I would argue that it doesn’t have the same weight and isn’t seen as sexist because our society is so tolerant of sexism. (Nigger didn’t have such a bad connotation either until we began to recognize racism.)
You have said repeatedly that use of the word bitch is simply an acknowledgement of the target’s gender, as if it were the pronoun she. I say, when you use it as part of your insult it moves from being an acknowledgement of gender to a gender insult. For instance, when I moved to New Mexico I found that many of the non-white men here who want to insult a white woman can’t just call her a bitch, they call her a “white bitch”. Do you not see any racial slur there? To “acknowledge” one’s race in the context of an insult is to insult them not only on the basis of their behavior, but also on the basis of their race. And I think most people acknowledge that (because racism is less tolerated than sexism).
When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.
I know that my feminist views are somewhat radical for this society in this day and age. I don’t expect anyone to understand/agree. I’ve given the concept of sexism many years of serious thought in order to come to these conclusions, so I doubt there’s anything you can say to change my mind about it. I’m sure there’s nothing I can do to change yours either. (Although, out of curiosity, if all the women you loved – mother, sister, wife, daughter - were by some chance to come to you and say that they found the word bitch to be offensive to them as women, would you stop using it?) So why don’t we just agree to disagree?
having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.
If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.
Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.
Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.
I disagree and I don't feel like repeating my arguments.
It’s about the power and meaning of words...
This is one reason I feel that the “competition” about whether black people or women were more mistreated is inappropriate. And it’s why I don’t think linking “bitch” to violence is relevant.
If you use these two words (bitch and nigger) as a gauge to measure the acceptance of sexism and racism in society, I think these two words should have at least a similar weight, which I don't believe they have.
That's the whole point of this discussion - not whether sexism is more accepted - but whether these words have an equal weight. The words 'historically linked' were used quite a few times to suggest that bitch has a same history as the word nigger. I say this is not true, that's why I asked for the link - again because that's the basis of this argument and if the link isn't there you have no argument.
It's very relevant.
When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.
am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.
(Although, out of curiosity, if all the women you loved – mother, sister, wife, daughter - were by some chance to come to you and say that they found the word bitch to be offensive to them as women, would you stop using it?)
They don't.
I think by giving the word bitch as sexist connotation that isn't there, you are the one who is perpetuating sexism.
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt
I feel this is especially through when you're talking about offensive words whether it be nigger or bitch or cunt.
And this is what this thread is about; words. Even more, I'd say it's about a word that currently doesn't have a sexist connotation and you are trying to give it one and thereby perpetuating sexism even further, imo.
If it were about actions, I'd probably agree with all of you (unless you believe all violence against women is sexism.)
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt
I agree totally. And yet how I feel is independent of the use of sexist commentary.
The majority of any power-minority continue to carry the collective wounds of their group that have not yet been healed/resolved. Yes, many women are sensitive to the wounds womankind carry with her. And insensitive men continue to fuel that. The woman with the wound is responsible for carrying the wound; as the man who acts with disrespect is responsible for the ways he is disrespectful of others.
Edit: women use the "b" word all the time, too, from a place of lack, with consequences to bear for their actions.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.
If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.
Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.
Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.
I totally agree.
Words point to the energy beneath the surface. We are 100% responsible for how we choose to represent ourselves.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.
Frankly, human beings operate from a place of lack all the time. There is no justification...ever. Just consequences for our actions. Always.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.
For the record..shouldn't "bastard" have a similar effect for "illegitimate children" rather than men, in general?
There are many of those loaded words. I speak at high schools with a program geared towards teens, regarding mental illness prevention and mental health. And we teach the kids how loaded and stigmatizing it is to use the word "crazy" as is so casually used in derogatory ways in today's society, and in ways that are so biting and insulting to those with mental health issues. These words are used wide-spread-like.
And I've sided with surferdude and Ahnimus before that sexism is alive and well as a ploy being used against men. It surprises me the degree that angry women (falsely) entitle themselves to use degrading commentary re: men, as if it levels the playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sexism is sexism, whether geared towards men or women. I focus on being a humanitarian rather than a feminist, due to the negative backlashes that exist in the name of feminism.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
For the record..shouldn't "bastard" have a similar effect for "illegitimate children" rather than men, in general?
There are many of those loaded words. I speak at high schools with a program geared towards teens, regarding mental illness prevention and mental health. And we teach the kids how loaded and stigmatizing it is to use the word "crazy" as is so casually used in derogatory ways in today's society, and in ways that are so biting and insulting to those with mental health issues. These words are used wide-spread-like.
And I've sided with surferdude and Ahnimus before that sexism is alive and well as a ploy being used against men. It surprises me the degree that angry women (falsely) entitle themselves to use degrading commentary re: men, as if it levels the playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sexism is sexism, whether geared towards men or women. I focus on being a humanitarian rather than a feminist, due to the negative backlashes that exist in the name of feminism.
There are so many ways of taking words - bastard really means illegitimate child, but it's associated with men, just like bitch really means female dog, but is associated with women. We can't be too focused on making the words we use are offensive to no one, it's just not natural. The most we can do is make sure we don't intend to offend the people we talk to, and if we do offend, apologise.
And conversely, realise, that if someone says something that offends us in this way - ie. bitch being a very accepted, yet very sexist term - a lot of the time, it's probably unintentional.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Comments
Does it have to be done to every single member of a gender/race/whatever to count? Or does it count if it happens to an individual or group because of their gender/race/whatever?
I would argue that woman have been (and in many cases, are still being) subjected to everything you listed above.
Here's an interesting question: When a black woman is raped, is she raped because she's black or because she's a woman? When the girls in Mexico are murdered, is it because they're Mexican (or Guatemalan) or because they're women? When a child is sold as a sex slave, is it because she's [whatever] or because she's a woman?
Seriously....
It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.
Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.
If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?
That's a tough question. There might be words like that, I can't think of any word right now.
One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from one describing one 'reality' to another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift.
I think this is the case with the word bitch but not with the word nigger.
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Yes, it has to be more than an individual or a smaller group, it doesn't have to be done to every single member but to the majority of the people or as in same percentages if you are talking about the similarities of the words 'nigger' and 'bitch' and the weight of the connotation they carry.
If 99% of all the black people were given the treatment I mentioned before and 1% of the women received a similar treatment I'd say there's a huge difference.
The question is, is it as a result of sexism or just plain disregard of humans in general, regardless of gender.
Not that it matters, though. The original argument was about how sexism was more tolerated than racism, back up by the fact that bitch was used more often than nigger and people have different reactions to the two words.
We were not discussing actions, if you want to discuss how sexism is more tolerated than racism and you base your claim on actions, I can debate that too and I'm not sure I'd disagree. But you use the idea that bitch is not regarded as sexist by the majority of people to say sexism is more accepted. I already explained why I disagreed with that.
I don't know the answer to these questions. A woman can be raped because she's black or because she's a woman etc.
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Are you the official spokesperson of the group it refers to i.e. women? No, you are not. Neither is Helen. You both have different opinions. So, I wouldn't say it's 'end of story'. (Helen would call this a lazy form of debate
Look, I already explained how I feel about the usage of bitch. We are talking about a horrendous person, not you.
If a person would call all women bitches, that would be sexist, I think. (yet again one could argue if he call every single person a bad name regardless of gender, he'd not be sexist)
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"Female slaves are at highest risk of sexual abuse and sexual slavery."
This is not a sexist thing per se.
This is well over two thousand years old. And I disagree with a lot of things in the OT, the depiction of women is one.
This is absolutely disgusting. Never argued there wasn't any violence against women in history. Although, again to have a similar sematic weight, one must look at the whole context. What's the percentage of women were forced into this?
I'm not condoning this, even if it were only one it would be one too many! This is never acceptable.
Violence against woman exists, however, not all violence against women stems from sexism. Likewise not all violence against black people stems from racism. I hit a black guy once and I can assure you there was nothing racist about my actions, if a white guy had done what he did, I would have punched him as well. I would never, however, punch a woman.
I'm not saying there isn't more violence against women (I have no idea actually about the numbers), and I'm definitely not saying it isn't problematic.
Violence against slaves was condoned because of the status slaves had, and they had that status soley based on race. One could say this status had the title 'nigger'.
I could agree that a similar sexist label existed or exists for women and because of this inferior label, the view that women are inferior, violence against women was committed and condoned, I cannot agree that that label was historically linked to the word 'bitch'. Therefore, I believe the two words carry a different semantic weight, which was my point.
No worries, I don't think that and would not believe it.
Genital mutilation again is not linked with the word bitch, neither is femicide.
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You say that it doesn't count if we break it down into smaller groups, but you are breaking the black race down into a very specific group of people in a certain location during a certain time period. So I believe your comparison is to a very specific group of white women in the US during that same small time period. That completely disregards the majority of women, who exist worldwide, in various colors, throughout history. You can't use that one tiny minority of women to represent women as a whole.
Or are you comparing black slaves in the US to all women worldwide from the beginning of time to the present and saying only 1% of those women have been persecuted?
I am merely responding to your claim that nigger is a less acceptable word than bitch because black people were/are treated worse than women. You listed ways in which black people were treated worse than woman. I am saying women are treated that way too.
But rape is specific to women, not to black people.
(Yes, I realize men can be raped as well, but it's a very rare occurance compared to the rape of women and when it happens it's usually to demasculinize the man, in effect turning him into a woman by treating him as one.)
I am indeed talking about a specific group, however, the world nigger was not confined to define this group, it applied to all black people, regardless of location.
We are talking about the word bitch, wich is an English word. You say bitch is historically linked to abuse of women or sexism just like the word nigger is historically linked to abuse of black people and thus to racism. The word bitch cannot be historically linked to sexism in France, Mexico, Thailand because English is not the language there. So in order for it to be historically linked to sexism, like nigger is linked to racism, it has to be an example from a English speaking nation.
No.
You are twisting my words, I did not claim that. I have stated plenty of times why I believe the two words don't have the same weight.
Rape can be a racist crime i.e. with the intent of hurting someone of a specific race. Then it is race related, not gender related.
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to begin, i have to say sorry because i think i may have made this tread move away from sexism in general to now talking about one word. however, i would say that i don't agree with your statement abotu your quote about that female sexual abuse is not sexism per ce. i believe that it is and the reason that i say this is that the people who are abusing those women are doing so becuase they don't feel that those women are not on the same level as they are. and from my defintion that i posted before that you agree with that is sexism.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Show me where I said female sexual abuse is not sexism per se.
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My answer to this is that these words do not carry the same semantic weight as the word nigger, thus there is a difference in perception of these words. I think these words are not linked to sexism like 'nigger' is linked to racism.
My argument is this:
The word 'nigger' has this historic connotation, which we all know and we can easily tell where and when it got it's extremely negative connotation. This word was used to describe a whole race. The link is clearly there.
I don't think there has been a historic situation in which 'slut', 'bitch' or 'tramp' was used in the same way to describe the whole female gender . The link between sexism and these words is not there as it is between 'nigger' and racism.
I asked you to give me an example. You cited many examples of violence against women, some sexist, some not. But not any of these actions was historically linked to the word 'bitch', 'slut' or 'tramp'.
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Oh well. I'm off to have a good weekend. Hope everyone else does the same.
Do you base this on the notion that the word bitch is more accepted than the word nigger?
Have a nice weekend.
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I asked quite a few times to link the word bitch to specific acts of violence or hatred or discrimination against women like the word nigger is historically linked to racism and acts of violence against black people because of their race. You have not provided an example. You have provided many examples of violence and sexism, but you have not shown the link with the word bitch, which is what I ask for.
I feel this is important because of how your question is asked, you imply that the usage of bitch suggests that sexism is more tolerated than racism because it is less looked down upon by society than the usage of the word nigger.
My claim is that society doesn't see it as a sexist word because the sexist connotation isn't there and certainly not in the same way as the word nigger has a racist connotation, not even close.
Several of you described bitch as a demeaning term. This is correct, however, this doesn't necessarily mean it is sexist. The word 'asshole', which you seem to agree isn't sexist, is also a demeaning term. Any insult is. An insult is by definition demeaning and insulting, whether it is applied to men or women.
You pointed out that bitch refers to the female gender specifically. It does. This, I think, does not make it sexist either.
When a woman is obnoxious, rude, arrogant, selfish, mean, unpleasant one can call her an asshole and it is not sexist. You are using a word to describe her behaviour. Similarly you could use the word bitch. Bitch has an additional gender connotation, like you said, and we know because it originated from the meaning of 'female dog'. But you are still using a word to describe her behaviour. By using a female word you are merely acknowledging her gender. I don't believe there's anything wrong with seeing differences between men and women. I believe men are women are equal but they are certainly not the same. To go as far as saying that the acknowledgement of gender in an insult is sexist is absurd. We accept the difference in gender in ordinary speech constantly (waiter - waitress; the desciption is the same, the only difference in the words is gender) but when we acknowledge it in offensive speech (asshole - jerk - bitch; the description is the same, the only difference is gender) it somehow becomes sexist?
Also note that I have been talking about a horrendous woman, or utterance expressed in anger. If a man were to refer to all women with the word bitch and not just to the girl who cheated on him with his best friend and took all his cd's and his two pearl jam tickets or to the neighbour girl who poured rat poison in his dog's water, then I would definitely agree it is sexism. Although, I should add that it's not sexism because of the word, but because of his attitude towards women. If he used 'trash' to refer to all women, it would of course also be sexist, although trash itself is not a feminine word.
In the other cases I'd say it's an expression of anger, an insult, a description of behaviour not related to gender. Or only related to gender because the object of his anger is the actions or behaviour of a female person. The focus is on the actions or behaviour or characteristics, not gender.
You could ask if it's 'okay' to call a black person nigger in anger or call black thugs, niggers. Well, whether it's okay or not is not my call. I would hope, though, that one would see the difference between a person who called a black man 'nigger' once in a fit of anger because this man stole his money and someone who always refers to black people as niggers.
But I think I should add this one more time, although I have said it plenty of times before; the connotation of nigger is a heavier one, one that is historically and presently specifically linked to race and not behaviour.
Anyway, if you want to talk about whether sexism is more tolerated than racism I'd be happy to join you, however, I don't agree with the reason you based your claim on. You could have dug up official numbers, for instance. I'm not sure those numbers would prove your claim, though. I'm interested in this topic but I thought your initial claim was and is absurd.
If you want to talk about violence against women, again, I would definitely join you, however, when you claim all violence against women is sexist, I don't agree either.
And furthermore, somewhere in this thread someone wrote men cannot be the victim of sexism, I forgot who it was. I didn't respond to it at the time but I will now; that is a 'sexist' claim.
We all agree on the definiton of sexism; the belief that one gender is inferior. Regardless of power structures in modern society, one can always be the victim of sexism regardless of sex. It is foolish to believe otherwise.
That's all I have to say.
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having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.
If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.
Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.
Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.
no shit......
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
hehehehehehe
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
I don’t know why I’m allowing myself to be sucked back into this conversation, which is obviously going nowhere – especially when I’m trying to just enjoy my weekend. I guess I can’t help it because sexism is such an important topic to me.
I think your first statement is your most important one. You are arguing so vehemently because you are taking this personally and believe you are being targeted as a sexist. But, as I’ve said before, no one is calling you a sexist. This conversation is not about you. It’s about the power and meaning of words.
In my experience, defensiveness is a common response from men when being asked to consider a broader scope of sexism. That makes sense. They consider themselves to be good guys and don’t like the thought that something they may do might serve to marginalize the women they love.
But the reason I feel that sexism is more tolerated is because, in my opinion, there are many, many sexist aspects of society that go unrecognized – and are therefore upheld – not just by “bad” guys, but by “good” guys and women alike.
Once again, that does not mean to say that any individual is a sexist. That would imply that sexism defines who they are. There are few people in the world to whom I think that would apply. I am merely referring to behaviors and beliefs that I believe support our patriarchal way of life. And we are ALL guilty of them at some time or another – including myself.
You said we all agree that sexism is defined as the belief that one gender is inferior to the other – but I don’t agree to this. I think this is a very simplified, narrow definition. Sexism isn’t just about beliefs; it’s also about actions (and inactions). One doesn’t have to believe in something to propagate it. It’s also not specifically about inferiority per se. It’s also about disrespect, marginalization, subjugation, disempowerment, etc.
This is one reason I feel that the “competition” about whether black people or women were more mistreated is inappropriate. And it’s why I don’t think linking “bitch” to violence is relevant. I think you’re right that in the United States in the present time “bitch” doesn’t hold the same weight/connotation as “nigger” – meaning that people don’t see it as such a bad word. But I believe this was exactly the original poster’s point (correct me if I’m wrong, OP). You could say that since “bitch” doesn’t have the same weight it isn’t a sexist word and therefore the acceptance of its use doesn’t indicate a greater tolerance of sexism. But I would argue that it doesn’t have the same weight and isn’t seen as sexist because our society is so tolerant of sexism. (Nigger didn’t have such a bad connotation either until we began to recognize racism.)
You have said repeatedly that use of the word bitch is simply an acknowledgement of the target’s gender, as if it were the pronoun she. I say, when you use it as part of your insult it moves from being an acknowledgement of gender to a gender insult. For instance, when I moved to New Mexico I found that many of the non-white men here who want to insult a white woman can’t just call her a bitch, they call her a “white bitch”. Do you not see any racial slur there? To “acknowledge” one’s race in the context of an insult is to insult them not only on the basis of their behavior, but also on the basis of their race. And I think most people acknowledge that (because racism is less tolerated than sexism).
When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.
I know that my feminist views are somewhat radical for this society in this day and age. I don’t expect anyone to understand/agree. I’ve given the concept of sexism many years of serious thought in order to come to these conclusions, so I doubt there’s anything you can say to change my mind about it. I’m sure there’s nothing I can do to change yours either. (Although, out of curiosity, if all the women you loved – mother, sister, wife, daughter - were by some chance to come to you and say that they found the word bitch to be offensive to them as women, would you stop using it?) So why don’t we just agree to disagree?
I disagree and I don't feel like repeating my arguments.
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If you use these two words (bitch and nigger) as a gauge to measure the acceptance of sexism and racism in society, I think these two words should have at least a similar weight, which I don't believe they have.
That's the whole point of this discussion - not whether sexism is more accepted - but whether these words have an equal weight. The words 'historically linked' were used quite a few times to suggest that bitch has a same history as the word nigger. I say this is not true, that's why I asked for the link - again because that's the basis of this argument and if the link isn't there you have no argument.
It's very relevant.
They don't.
I think by giving the word bitch as sexist connotation that isn't there, you are the one who is perpetuating sexism.
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Eleanor Roosevelt
I feel this is especially through when you're talking about offensive words whether it be nigger or bitch or cunt.
And this is what this thread is about; words. Even more, I'd say it's about a word that currently doesn't have a sexist connotation and you are trying to give it one and thereby perpetuating sexism even further, imo.
If it were about actions, I'd probably agree with all of you (unless you believe all violence against women is sexism.)
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The majority of any power-minority continue to carry the collective wounds of their group that have not yet been healed/resolved. Yes, many women are sensitive to the wounds womankind carry with her. And insensitive men continue to fuel that. The woman with the wound is responsible for carrying the wound; as the man who acts with disrespect is responsible for the ways he is disrespectful of others.
Edit: women use the "b" word all the time, too, from a place of lack, with consequences to bear for their actions.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Words point to the energy beneath the surface. We are 100% responsible for how we choose to represent ourselves.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
There are many of those loaded words. I speak at high schools with a program geared towards teens, regarding mental illness prevention and mental health. And we teach the kids how loaded and stigmatizing it is to use the word "crazy" as is so casually used in derogatory ways in today's society, and in ways that are so biting and insulting to those with mental health issues. These words are used wide-spread-like.
And I've sided with surferdude and Ahnimus before that sexism is alive and well as a ploy being used against men. It surprises me the degree that angry women (falsely) entitle themselves to use degrading commentary re: men, as if it levels the playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sexism is sexism, whether geared towards men or women. I focus on being a humanitarian rather than a feminist, due to the negative backlashes that exist in the name of feminism.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Oh. wait.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
There are so many ways of taking words - bastard really means illegitimate child, but it's associated with men, just like bitch really means female dog, but is associated with women. We can't be too focused on making the words we use are offensive to no one, it's just not natural. The most we can do is make sure we don't intend to offend the people we talk to, and if we do offend, apologise.
And conversely, realise, that if someone says something that offends us in this way - ie. bitch being a very accepted, yet very sexist term - a lot of the time, it's probably unintentional.