is sexism more tolerated that racism?

Specifics

Collin wrote:

Nowhere in this thread have I defended sexism or anyone's right to be a sexist.

What we do have is a difference of opinion about whether or not a word has a sexist connotation.



See, this only proves it's necessary to bring intelligence into this. Stupid ridiculous statements bring us nowhere.

Chill out Ike.

Collin

Specifics wrote:

Chill out Ike.

I'm quite relaxed. Could you just show me where I have defended sexism? Could you show me where I defended being sexist?

Specifics

Collin wrote:

I'm quite relaxed. Could you just show me where I have defended sexism? Could you show me where I defended being sexist?

you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.

Collin

Specifics wrote:

you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.

It's not a battle. People can agree to disagree. Unless you have some sort of proof bitch is sexist and has a sexist connotation, your theory is as good as mine.

Anyway, if you had read my posts, which I'm beginning to doubt you did, you would have noticed I never defended or justified sexism.

I was merely commenting on the presumption of this whole thread, which I feel is important. If you disagree with that, fine. But I just hope you can understand, though it seems you've already made up your mind about me, why I felt it was necessary to elucidate my opinion so strongly.

Anyway, I have explained myself and my opinion as good as I can. If some of you consider me to be a sexist, so be it.

I think sexism is a serious problem and I was ready to debate it. I no longer want to discuss it here because I already know what's ahead of me if I were to engage is such a debate - especially if using your mind is considered wrong.

Specifics

Collin wrote:

It's not a battle. People can agree to disagree. Unless you have some sort of proof bitch is sexist and has a sexist connotation, your theory is as good as mine.

Anyway, if you had read my posts, which I'm beginning to doubt you did, you would have noticed I never defended or justified sexism.

I was merely commenting on the presumption of this whole thread, which I feel is important. If you disagree with that, fine. But I just hope you can understand, though it seems you've already made up your mind about me, why I felt it was necessary to elucidate my opinion so strongly.

Anyway, I have explained myself and my opinion as good as I can. If some of you consider me to be a sexist, so be it.

I think sexism is a serious problem and I was ready to debate it. I no longer want to discuss it here because I already know what's ahead of me if I were to engage is such a debate - especially if using your mind is considered wrong.

We're all guilty of a little sexism and racism, it's all me-ism (or everybody else-ism i'm not quite sure) and strength in numbers. The trick is to recognise it, make amends for it, and make sure it doesnt overly perverse our actions and view of reality.

If we can't recognise motivation in the words we feel to use and the actions we feel to take, how else can we possibly recognise it? quantifying the possibilities of language is a fine way to use your intelligence, an excellent way! but it doesnt alter the reality of it.

And im only winding you up calling you whatever.

i feel like Jerry Springer now. Wish i looked like the handsome bastard.

angelica

...

angelica

Collin wrote:

That's sort of my whole point inre: the word bitch.

That there is a difference between sexism and just insulting someone who is female.

From what I gathered here any insulting word that is feminine is sexist no matter what context it is used in. I disagree with that, I say someone can insult a woman from plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with gender even if they use a feminine word, which I explained, merely acknowledges gender just like we acknowledge gender in non-insulting speech (waiter - waitress).

Like Rhino said, if you believe that then bastard is sexist too, also in whatever situation it is used. I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the original poster had said that sexism is more tolerated than racism and gave as example the acceptance of the word bastard in society compared with the acceptance of the word nigger.

I think the idea that insulting women (even with gender words) is automatically sexism is ridiculous. Just like I believe that the word bastard is also not sexist.

We were never talking about whether insulting in general is acceptable or not. That's a different discussion.

What also pissed me off is that some people had the nerve of comparing what women are going through now (in the US, or Western world) and what black people went through during slavery. That is preposterous!

A part of wanting equality for men and women is realizing women can be insulted or abused without it being sexist.

I think you are right, angelica, at some point a feminist should become a humanitarian. It isn't so much about abuse of women specifically (though that I a major problem that deserves more attention), but it is about everyone.

That's sort of what bugs me here, I think there is not sexist connotation to the word bitch to the majority of the people like there is no sexist connotation to the word bastard. I think it would be equally pointless to start directing people's attention at the "sexist" nature of the word bastard or any masculine word. At this point one should realize both men and women are affected by insults and verbal abuse, it is not sexism.

Again insults and being offensive is a different discussion.

Imo, most people don't intend to be racist or sexist. They do so unconsciously. Meaning, they honestly do so from a position of lack of understanding. They may use the b-word to insult, but have no intent to perpetuate sexism. And yet, the way I see it, they do just that--they continue to perpetuate the cycles. People do it regarding mentally ill people. They do it regarding all kinds of power-minorities.

We all live in a patriarchical society, where the illusion exists that women have equal power, which just is not true. It's so insidious and pervasive how this is not true. It's been very interesting. I've talked about this subject many times on this board. In each thread I've done so, numeous men come in and tell me how silly the idea is. And yet, it's lunacy the degree women act other than their true dictates tell them, in order to "thrive" in a "man's world". I read in a book, once, that doing so actually changes the natural way a woman's brain functions! And the natural functioning of the female brain has distinct advantages over the typical male-functioning. In the western world (including Europe), we generally subscribe to "masculine" ways of processing information (being logical and objective), and we all -- male and female -- are conditioned to diminish and discard our more predominantly feminine ways of processing information (emotional and intuitive). Most of the people I gravitate to on this board (yourself included) are naturally gifted with ways of processing information that are beyond the patriarchical and typically male ways, and yet we pay the price everyday for being outside "the norm".

The problem that I see is that this is so insidious, and so normal, and that both males and females give up balance in order to adhere to what we've internalized, being the male dominance that is so natural to us, that we barely recognize the indicators that this imbalance is rampant. And still it is. I foresee a day in the future when we awaken to how horribly debilitating this sexist mindset has been against women and feminine power, and for the healing of all of us -- both sides of the coin of this rampant imbalance. We will see how this minimization of such vast areas of our human-power has led to so much repression and imbalance for all of us. Those who perpetuate the cycles do so from lack and ignorance, because to understand what's really happening, one would never ever be able to continue doing so...this loss of humanity for both females AND males is far, far too high.

I see femininist women who, while missing the underlying dynamics of what's going on, perpetuate the cycles. I see women who see themselves as independent and strong, bowing down to the "acceptable male ways" all the time, giving male-dominated ways power. And in the end, this patriarchical way kills men 20 years earlier than women on the whole, so it's not that anyone really "wins" anyway!

We do need to shift to the humanitarian view. However, in order to truly do so without perpetuating imbalance, we need to embrace fully, both the male and female aspects within the humanitarian stance.

And interestingly, psychology acknowledges that developing such a balance between ALL genders, embracing the male and female within, we come into a true place of inner harmony and therefore wholeness (psychological androgyny or balancing the "anima/animus").

angelica

Collin wrote:

My theory is if the majority of the people don't see a sexist connotation (like they don't see a sexist connotation in the word 'girl' or 'bastard' for example) in the word bitch then by giving that word a sexist connotation you are giving men more power over women. What was not sexist before is now sexist. You create and perpetuate more sexism.

This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.

Specifics

angelica wrote:

...

If Springer had said all that no-one would have listened long enough to learn anything!!..:)

angelica

Specifics wrote:

you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.

If you are a man, I very much applaud you for your post that I quoted earlier, and agreed with!

At the same time... Collin pointed out one key issue...That you are making one view "right" (yours) and another view wrong (not yours)..... It's the win/lose, right/wrong mindset, where one view must trump another, that is key to the patriarchical mindset that has humans across the globe unable to move to the next level of human evolution. It's a linear and logical point of view that says two opposing ideas cannot exist at the same time and be equally valid.

Women's brains typically can process information much more effectively laterally, meaning they can hold all kinds of opposing views at once, without needing to "resolve" them. (women have much thicker connections between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, allowing them to more readily accept "what is". They then can multi-task. and jump from decision making to nurturing in short spans ... women and left-handed men...)

I do agree with you from earlier, however, that if someone...say Collin for example, wants to call a woman the b-word, and wants to justify it (I mean in reality, as opposed to in an intellectual exercise...and knowing Collin, he's probably one of the least sexist people I know, and with huge potential to be THE least over his lifespan), he (or she in other cases) does point to an underlying nefarious intent they are not conscious of. Such is the nature of the indicators we use that give us away. Using that word in terms of women is a great indictor of misogyny to me...in men and women. I see people using the term without realizing what it really points to. However, I also well-know many who are in the know...and who take those signs very seriously. It's by becoming conscious in such ways myself that I easily know who is where I am, and who is not. This is why there is an awake minority who walk around and can see through people, and can readily see where to move, and where not to. At one time, I denied my own awareness and justifyied the unjustifiable in others because I saw they "didn't know any better", and I therefore accepted and lived amongst people who justified abuse over and over. Of course, I also lived the consequences of getting in the line of that fire.

All over this board there exists a majority of people who are against degredation on one level, and then turn around and excuse and justify it in other situations. And then such individuals are completely oblivious to their own imbalance that they willfully enact. And yet, there are those who see beyond, and see right through what's happening, and who no longer enable it.

Collin

angelica wrote:

We all live in a patriarchical society, where the illusion exists that women have equal power, which just is not true.

The position of the woman has in this thread been compared to the position of black people during slavery. Now you can tell me women don't have equal power and I will agree, but that comparison is insane.

We do need to shift to the humanitarian view. However, in order to truly do so without perpetuating imbalance, we need to embrace fully, both the male and female aspects within the humanitarian stance.

Well, I agree with this but that's not what the people in this thread have been arguing.

If you call women assholes, it's all good, because it's gender-neutral. (this seems to be the concensus here in this thread)

This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.

Ah, but here we go back to the same discussion i.e. is the word bitch sexist or not? To assume people are unconsciously perpetuating sexism by calling, for instance, a horrendous woman a bitch means you say 'bitch' has a fixed sexist connotation and there is no debate about it possible, that this is a universal truth so to speak.

And that is, I think, not the case and it thus becomes a humanitarian issue. Because right now, in society, insulting men is absolutely accepted, so this would mean, if you want equal treatment, that it would also be acceptable for women to be insulted - with a feminine word or a gender neutral word. It is perfectly accepted that men are insulted with masculine words as well.

Thus, if you want that to change, if you want offensive speech acts to change i.e. for both sexes, doesn't it become a humanitarian issue? And if you only want it for one gender and not the other isn't that sexism?

I don't necessarily feel we need to actively make certain words unacceptable. I tend to agree more with that quote I posted earlier.

If someone calls me an asshole I can react to it but by doing so I only show I am offended and give that word power. If I don't react and simply think to myself or just know, that person does not define me, I strip that word of its power.

So, instead of making words unacceptable I think we should teach respect and not let ourselves be reduced to something less because of another person's words.

Specifics

angelica wrote:

If you are a man, I very much applaud you for your post that I quoted earlier, and agreed with!

At the same time... Collin pointed out one key issue...That you are making one view "right" (yours) and another view wrong (not yours)..... It's the win/lose, right/wrong mindset, where one view must trump another, that is key to the patriarchical mindset that has humans across the globe unable to move to the next level of human evolution. It's a linear and logical point of view that says two opposing ideas cannot exist at the same time and be equally valid.

Women's brains typically can process information much more effectively laterally, meaning they can hold all kinds of opposing views at once, without needing to "resolve" them. (women have much thicker connections between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, allowing them to more readily accept "what is". They then can multi-task. and jump from decision making to nurturing in short spans ... women and left-handed men...)

I do agree with you from earlier, however, that if someone...say Collin for example, wants to call a woman the b-word, and wants to justify it (I mean in reality, as opposed to in an intellectual exercise...and knowing Collin, he's probably one of the least sexist people I know, and with huge potential to be THE least over his lifespan), he (or she in other cases) does point to an underlying nefarious intent they are not conscious of. Such is the nature of the indicators we use that give us away. Using that word in terms of women is a great indictor of misogyny to me...in men and women. I see people using the term without realizing what it really points to. However, I also well-know many who are in the know...and who take those signs very seriously. It's by becoming conscious in such ways myself that I easily know who is where I am, and who is not. This is why there is an awake minority who walk around and can see through people, and can readily see where to move, and where not to. At one time, I denied my own awareness and justifyied the unjustifiable in others because I saw they "didn't know any better", and I therefore accepted and lived amongst people who justified abuse over and over. Of course, I also lived the consequences of getting in the line of that fire.

All over this board there exists a majority of people who are against degredation on one level, and then turn around and excuse and justify it in other situations. And then such individuals are completely oblivious to their own imbalance that they willfully enact. And yet, there are those who see beyond, and see right through what's happening, and who no longer enable it.

If i am a woman do i still get the applause?

I spend a lot of my life burning in a pit of my own making (or maybe forced by experience) trying to distinguish the difference between my own opinion/need to feel intelligent/need for power, and what is the "truth" burning through the bullshit. I'm not there yet but i have no intention of resting with it.

Today i have landed on quite a pleasant feeling of playfullness, which i am not scared to enjoy and long may it continue.

I think were you not such close friends with Collin you may not feel the need to have pulled me up for arguing a simple truth?..:)

we can discuss and happilly disagree on as many different possible meanings and connotations of the word bitch as you like, but the truth of it you explain quite well yourself.

Your friendship is obviously one worth having, personally i don't look too hard for friends, i find that people that do tend to look also for enemies, or at the very least will protect them unneccessarily..:)

Specifics

angelica wrote:

.....

And right now i have to go serve THE man for 12 hours, so i wouldnt want you to think im ducking any issues if i don't reply...:)

Peas

angelica

Specifics wrote:

If i am a woman do i still get the applause?

Yes. The majority of women I know do not scratch the surface on this subject. Men tend to be less aware than that.

I spend a lot of my life burning in a pit of my own making (or maybe forced by experience) trying to distinguish the difference between my own opinion/need to feel intelligent/need for power, and what is the "truth" burning through the bullshit. I'm not there yet but i have no intention of resting with it.

Today i have landed on quite a pleasant feeling of playfullness, which i am not scared to enjoy and long may it continue.

cool.

I think were you not such close friends with Collin you may not feel the need to have pulled me up for arguing a simple truth?..:)

My friendship with Collin is independent of the truth. I called you out because you were providing an example of exactly what I referred to re: the patriarchical way that both men and women act out all day long, regardless of what we say we believe. This is what I believe is the crux of the issue.

angelica

Collin wrote:

Ah, but here we go back to the same discussion i.e. is the word bitch sexist or not? To assume people are unconsciously perpetuating sexism by calling, for instance, a horrendous woman a bitch means you say 'bitch' has a fixed sexist connotation and there is no debate about it possible, that this is a universal truth so to speak.

As I see it, it is universal and there is no debate on one level. And yet, I also embrace your view, and your perspective, and paradoxically, I fully embrace the fact that there actually is debate. (see my signature!!!!!) I well know my view is from that of being a fallable human being, and I seek to grow in unity and wholeness all the time (rather than growing unconsciously through separation and fragmentation!)! I'm in total agreement with you, that any fringe view or approach (ie: in this thread, your view seems to be the minority) is not to be dismissed, if we are being realistic and if we seek to discern information. All too often, I'm that fringe person, and I know the validity of it! I admit, I don't see your perspective at all. Although I get that words only have the power we give them. (at this point in time, we cannot gloss over the fact that in the human unconscious, such words hold certain powers over us collectively until we do the healing work) When I think I see your view, it's through the filter of my own experiences which differ....

Ultimately, it's like in quantum physics...when to measure one aspect of reality, we lose out on being able to measure another aspect...which is why I know the importance of accepting all views, rather than getting lost in my ego.

Also, there is no such thing as an objective view...ever...even though there are distinct natural laws we live within. I do believe that as we learn that the objective does not exist, we will also literally fulfill our human destiny and recognize our creative power to also change natural law! (yay 2012!!)

And that is, I think, not the case and it thus becomes a humanitarian issue. Because right now, in society, insulting men is absolutely accepted, so this would mean, if you want equal treatment, that it would also be acceptable for women to be insulted - with a feminine word or a gender neutral word. It is perfectly accepted that men are insulted with masculine words as well.

I agree this is a humanitarian issue! It's to the detriment of human beings that insulting men is accepted! It's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face! What I find acceptable and what society finds acceptable are very different things!! I don't justify the unacceptable. And I've learned what is/is not unacceptable the very hard way.

Thus, if you want that to change, if you want offensive speech acts to change i.e. for both sexes, doesn't it become a humanitarian issue? And if you only want it for one gender and not the other isn't that sexism?

Obviously I'm only speaking for myself here. I don't "want it to change". I accept the way things are. I trust that we're exactly where we need to be for exacting reasons. I'm happy to have found my way beyond the cycles. There is no victim/victor in the cycles...that's an illusion. Those perpetuating the cycles will learn (or not) by the consequences of their actions. It's perfect! I'm at peace with it!

I don't necessarily feel we need to actively make certain words unacceptable. I tend to agree more with that quote I posted earlier.

We all have free choice to choose for ourselves, as it should be. Which I think you agree. I merely point out the consequences of different choices.

It's part of the patriarchical mindset we perpetuate to continue to paint certain behaviours as objectively right/wrong. I won't make me "right" and you "wrong", because to do so is actually out of synch with natural law and harmony. When I step into right/wrong thinking, I create my own conflict. Duality is a part of human evolution that we're learning, the very hard way, to move beyond.

If someone calls me an asshole I can react to it but by doing so I only show I am offended and give that word power. If I don't react and simply think to myself or just know, that person does not define me, I strip that word of its power.

So, instead of making words unacceptable I think we should teach respect and not let ourselves be reduced to something less because of another person's words.

I agree with you in essence as I said yesterday. I aspire to finding ways to heal the hold the tribal mindset has had over me so that I can soar in freedom and peace. I've found it's absolutely crucial to do so in ways that I own and accept the problem and then release it. Note that owning it is half the battle! The REAL problem happens when people "try" not to give words power...and in denying the power the words have over them, (because they have not healed the inner wounds) people deny themselves their own awareness -- consciousness. It's so rampant and widespread. It's the underlying human imbalance, due to repressing issues that we continue doing, thinking it's "right".

despite what Specifics thinks, I have had some of my most challenging debates with you on many major topics!! Probably because we differ on some very key points!!!! And we're both reasonable, so we actually address the hard questions! therefore, like with others like farfromglorified, I value my friendship with you, given the circumstances and how we step beyond our differences, all the more! Peace.

Specifics

angelica wrote:

My friendship with Collin is independent of the truth. I called you out because you were providing an example of exactly what I referred to re: the patriarchical way that both men and women act out all day long, regardless of what we say we believe. This is what I believe is the crux of the issue.

the insult bitch is a sexist term. as a philosophical point it isnt one that interests me. to see it philosophised without acknowledging first the truth is offensive to the truth and is nothing but paying homage to your own intelligence. the truth of it needs admitting and hasn't been.

Specifics

.....

Collin

Specifics wrote:

the insult bitch is a sexist term. as a philosophical point it isnt one that interests me. to see it philosophised without acknowledging first the truth is offensive to the truth and is nothing but paying homage to your own intelligence. the truth of it needs admitting and hasn't been.

I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.

Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.

I'm done with this thread.

Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail

OysterJam01

MM this is an interesting discussion. . . .

I think that rascism and sexism are different and that calling girls sluts, bitches and so fouth is merely employing an adjective to describe a persons characteristics (whether or not such descriptions are true or not). If i call my friend "a fat cow" chances are she isnt fat nor cow-like, but i might want to hurt her because she has broken my shoes, eaten my cake, or stolen my boyfriend . . . but to swear at someone based on their skin colour is just inhumane, and i think comes from people who are really rather stupid.

angelica

Collin wrote:

I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.

Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.

I'm done with this thread.

Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail

peace, Collin.