There are so many ways of taking words - bastard really means illegitimate child, but it's associated with men, just like bitch really means female dog, but is associated with women. We can't be too focused on making the words we use are offensive to no one, it's just not natural. The most we can do is make sure we don't intend to offend the people we talk to, and if we do offend, apologise.
And conversely, realise, that if someone says something that offends us in this way - ie. bitch being a very accepted, yet very sexist term - a lot of the time, it's probably unintentional.
Exactly!!!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
There are so many ways of taking words - bastard really means illegitimate child, but it's associated with men, just like bitch really means female dog, but is associated with women. We can't be too focused on making the words we use are offensive to no one, it's just not natural. The most we can do is make sure we don't intend to offend the people we talk to, and if we do offend, apologise.
And conversely, realise, that if someone says something that offends us in this way - ie. bitch being a very accepted, yet very sexist term - a lot of the time, it's probably unintentional.
I particularly like the point that we make sure we don't intend to offend. Once we step into offensive intent...there's no justification. Whether we offend the person, the gender, or whatever....we create our own hole for ourselves, to which there is no justification to get out of.
We're all wounded in one way or another. It's key to own our wounds, and seek to heal them. I agree, the focus is not on living in a restricted way, but rather to seek not to offend, and to apologize when we do. That kind of approach speaks volumes from far away!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I particularly like the point that we make sure we don't intend to offend. Once we step into offensive intent...there's no justification. Whether we offend the person, the gender, or whatever....we create our own hole for ourselves, to which there is no justification to get out of.
We're all wounded in one way or another. It's key to own our wounds, and seek to heal them. I agree, the focus is not on living in a restricted way, but rather to seek not to offend, and to apologize when we do. That kind of approach speaks volumes from far away!
It's human nature to mess up - we can't fix that. The most we can do is make sure we don't mess up too bad.
(But are we even allowed agree on this? )
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
(I'm not sure....it could be a double whammy...from both a gender standpoint [which we can rise above with our obvious humanitarian-beyond-gender approach], and from the run of the mill "we-can't-have-the-minority-in-terms-of-social-standing-agree-on-anything-without-attempting-to-mock/shame-them-for-it standpoint")
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Sexism is a lot more readily acceptable. It permeates everything...and to complain is to show that you're a controlling bitch. That's why, now that Hillary is out of the race, Hillary warmed-over insults are being lobbed at Michelle Obama. They're exactly the same types of insults and stereotypes used against both women. So, you can get away with implying that a competent woman is an angry bitch (so be afraid, be very afraid) just for being competent in a way you could never generally imply and get away with if the implications were that the woman was that way because she's black. The current insults about Michelle are the same as the Hillary ones, except that Michelle, according to the slurs, is angrier than Clinton...and you can lie about Michelle calling people Whitey in a way that you couldn't really lie about Clinton. I'm personally surprised the Photoshops haven't worked overtime to take Clinton away from the urinal and replace her Michelle already. Come on swift boaters...kinda slow, ain't cha?
The Republicans aren't going to let anything stop them. Nothing is off limits. Swift boats are going to be mostly covert...so that people's in boxes clog up with one volley of lies after the next. (We were recently treated to the "Obama wants to change the national anthem to the Coca-Cola jingle" lie sent by a credulous friend of the family's. The sexist and racial innuendo is already pouring out the gates. I expect it to continue at a good clip until long after the race is decided, especially if the race is decided for Obama.
Racist, sexist...it's all out there and will be used against us all. Again, the tactics are fear tactics. Be afraid of this woman. Be afraid of this Black woman. Be afraid of all Black people. Be afraid of this Black man--he's an accommodating Muslim. Just lie after lie. If a racial slur is deemed too low to go, a sexist one will work just fine in its place. Didn't you know Barack isn't the real candidate in this race? It's really Michelle because he's so pussy whipped. You know who really runs the place in a black household, right?
We need to fight back against Republicans and their lies. It was "fun" for some of you when the "gun" was turned against a candidate you didn't like--Hillary--but, it's not going to be so much fun now that these lying liars are going to come after your favored candidate and his wife. Every time you see a racist or sexist chain email show up in your mail box, you need to do something about it. A good place to go: snopes.com. Then you can look up individual lies as necessary. Counter the lies. Doing nothing, in my opinion, is just helping these lies propagate.
I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.
Yes..:)
But seeing as the major percentage of men are fucking assholes that don't give a toss about anyone, who cares.
Can you call me sexist for saying that seeing as im a man?..;)
When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.
am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.
Okay - I think this is going to be the 3rd or 4th time I've explained this, but here goes again: Acknowledging a theory and subscribing to it are entirely different things. I acknowledged a theory; I did not say I subscribe to it. The theory I acknowledged is: "sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism." Seriously - what part of this do concept (of me acknowledging a theory) do you not understand? If I WRITE IT IN ALL CAPS or s p e l l - i t - m o r e - s l o w l y will that help you get it?
I think by giving the word bitch as sexist connotation that isn't there, you are the one who is perpetuating sexism.
Huh? As far as I can tell, that doesn't even make sense.
I think you're just trying to find ways to keep arguing with me. You can keep this up all you want, but I'm not going to go out with you no matter how hard you try.
I particularly like the point that we make sure we don't intend to offend. Once we step into offensive intent...there's no justification. Whether we offend the person, the gender, or whatever....we create our own hole for ourselves, to which there is no justification to get out of.
We're all wounded in one way or another. It's key to own our wounds, and seek to heal them. I agree, the focus is not on living in a restricted way, but rather to seek not to offend, and to apologize when we do. That kind of approach speaks volumes from far away!
That's sort of my whole point inre: the word bitch.
That there is a difference between sexism and just insulting someone who is female.
From what I gathered here any insulting word that is feminine is sexist no matter what context it is used in. I disagree with that, I say someone can insult a woman from plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with gender even if they use a feminine word, which I explained, merely acknowledges gender just like we acknowledge gender in non-insulting speech (waiter - waitress).
Like Rhino said, if you believe that then bastard is sexist too, also in whatever situation it is used. I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the original poster had said that sexism is more tolerated than racism and gave as example the acceptance of the word bastard in society compared with the acceptance of the word nigger.
I think the idea that insulting women (even with gender words) is automatically sexism is ridiculous. Just like I believe that the word bastard is also not sexist.
We were never talking about whether insulting in general is acceptable or not. That's a different discussion.
What also pissed me off is that some people had the nerve of comparing what women are going through now (in the US, or Western world) and what black people went through during slavery. That is preposterous!
A part of wanting equality for men and women is realizing women can be insulted or abused without it being sexist.
I think you are right, angelica, at some point a feminist should become a humanitarian. It isn't so much about abuse of women specifically (though that I a major problem that deserves more attention), but it is about everyone.
That's sort of what bugs me here, I think there is not sexist connotation to the word bitch to the majority of the people like there is no sexist connotation to the word bastard. I think it would be equally pointless to start directing people's attention at the "sexist" nature of the word bastard or any masculine word. At this point one should realize both men and women are affected by insults and verbal abuse, it is not sexism.
Again insults and being offensive is a different discussion.
Okay - I think this is going to be the 3rd or 4th time I've explained this, but here goes again: Acknowledging a theory and subscribing to it are entirely different things. I acknowledged a theory; I did not say I subscribe to it. The theory I acknowledged is: "sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism." Seriously - what part of this do concept (of me acknowledging a theory) do you not understand? If I WRITE IT IN ALL CAPS or s p e l l - i t - m o r e - s l o w l y will that help you get it?
Words have meaning and power regardless of your intentions. This word is has an extra layer of meaning in that it references this specific gender (as a category).
That which is demeaning to women (as a category) (or any gender, one might argue) is sexist. Because the word bitch links a specific (and historically powerless) gender to a negative connotation, it is demeaning to that gender as a whole. Therefore, it is sexist.
I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).
Oh, please. I wasn’t expressing personal doubt and you know it.
I am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.
It would be the first time you've explained it. Here's the part I don't understand (and you don't have to answer in capitals or spell it out more slowly): do you agree with or not? If you don't then why did you cite it?
Why "acknowledge" a theory like that in this discussion as an answer to an argument if you don't believe in it.
That's like "acknowledging" a nazi theory in a thread about racism. People will naturally assume you argee with it otherwise there's no point in posting it.
I hope you can see what had me confused and I hope you can give me an answer.
Huh? As far as I can tell, that doesn't even make sense.
I think you're just trying to find ways to keep arguing with me. You can keep this up all you want, but I'm not going to go out with you no matter how hard you try.
I think it makes perfect sense.
I think the majority of the people do not feel there is a sexist connotation to the word bitch. The minority do think there is a sexist connotation to it.
My theory is if the majority of the people don't see a sexist connotation (like they don't see a sexist connotation in the word 'girl' or 'bastard' for example) in the word bitch then by giving that word a sexist connotation you are giving men more power over women. What was not sexist before is now sexist. You create and perpetuate more sexism.
Insults whether directed towards men or women are part of human communication. It's not a fun, happy, good and wonderful part of human communication but it is a part of it nonetheless. It will always suck, if someone calls you a bitch it will never be nice. It isn't nice for a guy to be called a bastard either, but it's not sexism!
Your arguments is about there being no sexist connotation to the word bitch.
bitch = female dog
people generally see animals as a lower form of life.
If that's what you got from my posts as 'my arguments' than I don't see the point in continuing this discussion with you. Sorry.
But here's an argument for you; go to the doggie thread on the AET and ask those people how they feel about their bitches; a part of the family, man's best friend, couldn't live without my bitch
"Hey honey, could you get the..."
honey: sticky substance made by insects and used as food.
Let's look at some other terms of endearment: bear: animal (note: not man's best friend), sweet pea: peas are food, baby: underdeveloped person that cannot take care of itself that needs someone to survive, it's like saying your girlfriend is not capable of surviving without your manly help, bunny: another animal, also not man's best friend cookie: food
Either way, that woman is a real retard. I guess that's sexist too because retard is an offensive word as well.
See, it's pointless to debate this with you because I covered all of this before. But if you narrow my all my argument to: "bitch has no sexist connotation". What can I do?
"One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from describing one 'reality' to describing another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift."
If that's what you got from my posts as 'my arguments' than I don't see the point in continuing this discussion with you. Sorry.
But here's an argument for you; go to the doggie thread on the AET and ask those people how they feel about their bitches; a part of the family, man's best friend, couldn't live without my bitch
"Hey honey, could you get the..."
honey: sticky substance made by insects and used as food.
Let's look at some other terms of endearment: bear: animal (note: not man's best friend), sweet pea: peas are food, baby: underdeveloped person that cannot take care of itself that needs someone to survive, it's like saying your girlfriend is not capable of surviving without your manly help, bunny: another animal, also not man's best friend cookie: food
Either way, that woman is a real retard. I guess that's sexist too because retard is an offensive word as well.
See, it's pointless to debate this with you because I covered all of this before. But if you narrow my all my argument to: "bitch has no sexist connotation". What can I do?
"One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from describing one 'reality' to describing another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift."
I already addressed your argument in post #105.
Ahh so its a term of endearment. why didn't you say!
Like "my bitch" or "my nigger"
i think you probably are a sexist..:) or at least an enabler.
I'm quite relaxed. Could you just show me where I have defended sexism? Could you show me where I defended being sexist?
you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.
you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.
It's not a battle. People can agree to disagree. Unless you have some sort of proof bitch is sexist and has a sexist connotation, your theory is as good as mine.
Anyway, if you had read my posts, which I'm beginning to doubt you did, you would have noticed I never defended or justified sexism.
I was merely commenting on the presumption of this whole thread, which I feel is important. If you disagree with that, fine. But I just hope you can understand, though it seems you've already made up your mind about me, why I felt it was necessary to elucidate my opinion so strongly.
Anyway, I have explained myself and my opinion as good as I can. If some of you consider me to be a sexist, so be it.
I think sexism is a serious problem and I was ready to debate it. I no longer want to discuss it here because I already know what's ahead of me if I were to engage is such a debate - especially if using your mind is considered wrong.
It's not a battle. People can agree to disagree. Unless you have some sort of proof bitch is sexist and has a sexist connotation, your theory is as good as mine.
Anyway, if you had read my posts, which I'm beginning to doubt you did, you would have noticed I never defended or justified sexism.
I was merely commenting on the presumption of this whole thread, which I feel is important. If you disagree with that, fine. But I just hope you can understand, though it seems you've already made up your mind about me, why I felt it was necessary to elucidate my opinion so strongly.
Anyway, I have explained myself and my opinion as good as I can. If some of you consider me to be a sexist, so be it.
I think sexism is a serious problem and I was ready to debate it. I no longer want to discuss it here because I already know what's ahead of me if I were to engage is such a debate - especially if using your mind is considered wrong.
We're all guilty of a little sexism and racism, it's all me-ism (or everybody else-ism i'm not quite sure) and strength in numbers. The trick is to recognise it, make amends for it, and make sure it doesnt overly perverse our actions and view of reality.
If we can't recognise motivation in the words we feel to use and the actions we feel to take, how else can we possibly recognise it? quantifying the possibilities of language is a fine way to use your intelligence, an excellent way! but it doesnt alter the reality of it.
And im only winding you up calling you whatever.
i feel like Jerry Springer now. Wish i looked like the handsome bastard.
That's sort of my whole point inre: the word bitch.
That there is a difference between sexism and just insulting someone who is female.
From what I gathered here any insulting word that is feminine is sexist no matter what context it is used in. I disagree with that, I say someone can insult a woman from plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with gender even if they use a feminine word, which I explained, merely acknowledges gender just like we acknowledge gender in non-insulting speech (waiter - waitress).
Like Rhino said, if you believe that then bastard is sexist too, also in whatever situation it is used. I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the original poster had said that sexism is more tolerated than racism and gave as example the acceptance of the word bastard in society compared with the acceptance of the word nigger.
I think the idea that insulting women (even with gender words) is automatically sexism is ridiculous. Just like I believe that the word bastard is also not sexist.
We were never talking about whether insulting in general is acceptable or not. That's a different discussion.
What also pissed me off is that some people had the nerve of comparing what women are going through now (in the US, or Western world) and what black people went through during slavery. That is preposterous!
A part of wanting equality for men and women is realizing women can be insulted or abused without it being sexist.
I think you are right, angelica, at some point a feminist should become a humanitarian. It isn't so much about abuse of women specifically (though that I a major problem that deserves more attention), but it is about everyone.
That's sort of what bugs me here, I think there is not sexist connotation to the word bitch to the majority of the people like there is no sexist connotation to the word bastard. I think it would be equally pointless to start directing people's attention at the "sexist" nature of the word bastard or any masculine word. At this point one should realize both men and women are affected by insults and verbal abuse, it is not sexism.
Again insults and being offensive is a different discussion.
Imo, most people don't intend to be racist or sexist. They do so unconsciously. Meaning, they honestly do so from a position of lack of understanding. They may use the b-word to insult, but have no intent to perpetuate sexism. And yet, the way I see it, they do just that--they continue to perpetuate the cycles. People do it regarding mentally ill people. They do it regarding all kinds of power-minorities.
We all live in a patriarchical society, where the illusion exists that women have equal power, which just is not true. It's so insidious and pervasive how this is not true. It's been very interesting. I've talked about this subject many times on this board. In each thread I've done so, numeous men come in and tell me how silly the idea is. And yet, it's lunacy the degree women act other than their true dictates tell them, in order to "thrive" in a "man's world". I read in a book, once, that doing so actually changes the natural way a woman's brain functions! And the natural functioning of the female brain has distinct advantages over the typical male-functioning. In the western world (including Europe), we generally subscribe to "masculine" ways of processing information (being logical and objective), and we all -- male and female -- are conditioned to diminish and discard our more predominantly feminine ways of processing information (emotional and intuitive). Most of the people I gravitate to on this board (yourself included) are naturally gifted with ways of processing information that are beyond the patriarchical and typically male ways, and yet we pay the price everyday for being outside "the norm".
The problem that I see is that this is so insidious, and so normal, and that both males and females give up balance in order to adhere to what we've internalized, being the male dominance that is so natural to us, that we barely recognize the indicators that this imbalance is rampant. And still it is. I foresee a day in the future when we awaken to how horribly debilitating this sexist mindset has been against women and feminine power, and for the healing of all of us -- both sides of the coin of this rampant imbalance. We will see how this minimization of such vast areas of our human-power has led to so much repression and imbalance for all of us. Those who perpetuate the cycles do so from lack and ignorance, because to understand what's really happening, one would never ever be able to continue doing so...this loss of humanity for both females AND males is far, far too high.
I see femininist women who, while missing the underlying dynamics of what's going on, perpetuate the cycles. I see women who see themselves as independent and strong, bowing down to the "acceptable male ways" all the time, giving male-dominated ways power. And in the end, this patriarchical way kills men 20 years earlier than women on the whole, so it's not that anyone really "wins" anyway!
We do need to shift to the humanitarian view. However, in order to truly do so without perpetuating imbalance, we need to embrace fully, both the male and female aspects within the humanitarian stance.
And interestingly, psychology acknowledges that developing such a balance between ALL genders, embracing the male and female within, we come into a true place of inner harmony and therefore wholeness (psychological androgyny or balancing the "anima/animus").
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
My theory is if the majority of the people don't see a sexist connotation (like they don't see a sexist connotation in the word 'girl' or 'bastard' for example) in the word bitch then by giving that word a sexist connotation you are giving men more power over women. What was not sexist before is now sexist. You create and perpetuate more sexism.
This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.
If you are a man, I very much applaud you for your post that I quoted earlier, and agreed with!
At the same time... Collin pointed out one key issue...That you are making one view "right" (yours) and another view wrong (not yours)..... It's the win/lose, right/wrong mindset, where one view must trump another, that is key to the patriarchical mindset that has humans across the globe unable to move to the next level of human evolution. It's a linear and logical point of view that says two opposing ideas cannot exist at the same time and be equally valid.
Women's brains typically can process information much more effectively laterally, meaning they can hold all kinds of opposing views at once, without needing to "resolve" them. (women have much thicker connections between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, allowing them to more readily accept "what is". They then can multi-task. and jump from decision making to nurturing in short spans ... women and left-handed men...)
I do agree with you from earlier, however, that if someone...say Collin for example, wants to call a woman the b-word, and wants to justify it (I mean in reality, as opposed to in an intellectual exercise...and knowing Collin, he's probably one of the least sexist people I know, and with huge potential to be THE least over his lifespan), he (or she in other cases) does point to an underlying nefarious intent they are not conscious of. Such is the nature of the indicators we use that give us away. Using that word in terms of women is a great indictor of misogyny to me...in men and women. I see people using the term without realizing what it really points to. However, I also well-know many who are in the know...and who take those signs very seriously. It's by becoming conscious in such ways myself that I easily know who is where I am, and who is not. This is why there is an awake minority who walk around and can see through people, and can readily see where to move, and where not to. At one time, I denied my own awareness and justifyied the unjustifiable in others because I saw they "didn't know any better", and I therefore accepted and lived amongst people who justified abuse over and over. Of course, I also lived the consequences of getting in the line of that fire.
All over this board there exists a majority of people who are against degredation on one level, and then turn around and excuse and justify it in other situations. And then such individuals are completely oblivious to their own imbalance that they willfully enact. And yet, there are those who see beyond, and see right through what's happening, and who no longer enable it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
They said I was unelectable.
They were right.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
We're all wounded in one way or another. It's key to own our wounds, and seek to heal them. I agree, the focus is not on living in a restricted way, but rather to seek not to offend, and to apologize when we do. That kind of approach speaks volumes from far away!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It's human nature to mess up - we can't fix that. The most we can do is make sure we don't mess up too bad.
(But are we even allowed agree on this?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
The Republicans aren't going to let anything stop them. Nothing is off limits. Swift boats are going to be mostly covert...so that people's in boxes clog up with one volley of lies after the next. (We were recently treated to the "Obama wants to change the national anthem to the Coca-Cola jingle" lie sent by a credulous friend of the family's. The sexist and racial innuendo is already pouring out the gates. I expect it to continue at a good clip until long after the race is decided, especially if the race is decided for Obama.
Racist, sexist...it's all out there and will be used against us all. Again, the tactics are fear tactics. Be afraid of this woman. Be afraid of this Black woman. Be afraid of all Black people. Be afraid of this Black man--he's an accommodating Muslim. Just lie after lie. If a racial slur is deemed too low to go, a sexist one will work just fine in its place. Didn't you know Barack isn't the real candidate in this race? It's really Michelle because he's so pussy whipped. You know who really runs the place in a black household, right?
We need to fight back against Republicans and their lies. It was "fun" for some of you when the "gun" was turned against a candidate you didn't like--Hillary--but, it's not going to be so much fun now that these lying liars are going to come after your favored candidate and his wife. Every time you see a racist or sexist chain email show up in your mail box, you need to do something about it. A good place to go: snopes.com. Then you can look up individual lies as necessary. Counter the lies. Doing nothing, in my opinion, is just helping these lies propagate.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/459/
A lot of people bought the pack of lies about Clinton hook, line and sinker. Let's not do the same with the Obamas.
Yes..:)
But seeing as the major percentage of men are fucking assholes that don't give a toss about anyone, who cares.
Can you call me sexist for saying that seeing as im a man?..;)
Yes, even though I'm a man too, and fully agree with you.
well ok then....:)
Okay - I think this is going to be the 3rd or 4th time I've explained this, but here goes again: Acknowledging a theory and subscribing to it are entirely different things. I acknowledged a theory; I did not say I subscribe to it. The theory I acknowledged is: "sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism." Seriously - what part of this do concept (of me acknowledging a theory) do you not understand? If I WRITE IT IN ALL CAPS or s p e l l - i t - m o r e - s l o w l y will that help you get it?
Huh? As far as I can tell, that doesn't even make sense.
I think you're just trying to find ways to keep arguing with me. You can keep this up all you want, but I'm not going to go out with you no matter how hard you try.
Your arguments is about there being no sexist connotation to the word bitch.
bitch = female dog
people generally see animals as a lower form of life.
That's sort of my whole point inre: the word bitch.
That there is a difference between sexism and just insulting someone who is female.
From what I gathered here any insulting word that is feminine is sexist no matter what context it is used in. I disagree with that, I say someone can insult a woman from plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with gender even if they use a feminine word, which I explained, merely acknowledges gender just like we acknowledge gender in non-insulting speech (waiter - waitress).
Like Rhino said, if you believe that then bastard is sexist too, also in whatever situation it is used. I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the original poster had said that sexism is more tolerated than racism and gave as example the acceptance of the word bastard in society compared with the acceptance of the word nigger.
I think the idea that insulting women (even with gender words) is automatically sexism is ridiculous. Just like I believe that the word bastard is also not sexist.
We were never talking about whether insulting in general is acceptable or not. That's a different discussion.
What also pissed me off is that some people had the nerve of comparing what women are going through now (in the US, or Western world) and what black people went through during slavery. That is preposterous!
A part of wanting equality for men and women is realizing women can be insulted or abused without it being sexist.
I think you are right, angelica, at some point a feminist should become a humanitarian. It isn't so much about abuse of women specifically (though that I a major problem that deserves more attention), but it is about everyone.
That's sort of what bugs me here, I think there is not sexist connotation to the word bitch to the majority of the people like there is no sexist connotation to the word bastard. I think it would be equally pointless to start directing people's attention at the "sexist" nature of the word bastard or any masculine word. At this point one should realize both men and women are affected by insults and verbal abuse, it is not sexism.
Again insults and being offensive is a different discussion.
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It would be the first time you've explained it. Here's the part I don't understand (and you don't have to answer in capitals or spell it out more slowly): do you agree with or not? If you don't then why did you cite it?
Why "acknowledge" a theory like that in this discussion as an answer to an argument if you don't believe in it.
That's like "acknowledging" a nazi theory in a thread about racism. People will naturally assume you argee with it otherwise there's no point in posting it.
I hope you can see what had me confused and I hope you can give me an answer.
I think it makes perfect sense.
I think the majority of the people do not feel there is a sexist connotation to the word bitch. The minority do think there is a sexist connotation to it.
My theory is if the majority of the people don't see a sexist connotation (like they don't see a sexist connotation in the word 'girl' or 'bastard' for example) in the word bitch then by giving that word a sexist connotation you are giving men more power over women. What was not sexist before is now sexist. You create and perpetuate more sexism.
Insults whether directed towards men or women are part of human communication. It's not a fun, happy, good and wonderful part of human communication but it is a part of it nonetheless. It will always suck, if someone calls you a bitch it will never be nice. It isn't nice for a guy to be called a bastard either, but it's not sexism!
naděje umírá poslední
If that's what you got from my posts as 'my arguments' than I don't see the point in continuing this discussion with you. Sorry.
But here's an argument for you; go to the doggie thread on the AET and ask those people how they feel about their bitches; a part of the family, man's best friend, couldn't live without my bitch
"Hey honey, could you get the..."
honey: sticky substance made by insects and used as food.
Let's look at some other terms of endearment:
bear: animal (note: not man's best friend),
sweet pea: peas are food,
baby: underdeveloped person that cannot take care of itself that needs someone to survive, it's like saying your girlfriend is not capable of surviving without your manly help,
bunny: another animal, also not man's best friend
cookie: food
Either way, that woman is a real retard. I guess that's sexist too because retard is an offensive word as well.
See, it's pointless to debate this with you because I covered all of this before. But if you narrow my all my argument to: "bitch has no sexist connotation". What can I do?
"One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from describing one 'reality' to describing another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift."
I already addressed your argument in post #105.
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Ahh so its a term of endearment. why didn't you say!
Like "my bitch" or "my nigger"
i think you probably are a sexist..:) or at least an enabler.
No, I explained plenty of times already, it's an insult.
I told you I addressed it in post #105. It seems to me you're just looking for a fight. I'm sorry but I'm not interested in that.
Words don't always have a fixed meaning and words can have different meanings.
naděje umírá poslední
Theres a difference between looking for a fight and taking the piss..:)
you are devoting way too much mind power to defending this issue tho, it's downright suspicious!
Admit you're wrong and let the bitch rest my nigger..;)
I think it's quite interesting what you are saying here:
"stop thinking and accept my view as the only correct view"
Talk about suspicious behaviour, it has fascist tendencies in it!
And what is it exactly that you think I am defending?
naděje umírá poslední
sexism, and your assumed right to be a sexist.
dog owner "i couldnt live without my bitch"
slave owner "i couldnt live without my nigger"
fascist "i couldnt live without my need to pervert reality around my own views and intelligence"
I'm done with it, you're a blatant fascist woman hater.
Nowhere in this thread have I defended sexism or anyone's right to be a sexist.
What we do have is a difference of opinion about whether or not a word has a sexist connotation.
See, this only proves it's necessary to bring intelligence into this. Stupid ridiculous statements bring us nowhere.
naděje umírá poslední
Chill out Ike.
I'm quite relaxed. Could you just show me where I have defended sexism? Could you show me where I defended being sexist?
naděje umírá poslední
you win man, its not a ridiculous thing to claim bitch is a term with no sexist connotation. and arguing for it is not, and cannot be seen to be, an attempt to justify and defend sexism.
It's not a battle. People can agree to disagree. Unless you have some sort of proof bitch is sexist and has a sexist connotation, your theory is as good as mine.
Anyway, if you had read my posts, which I'm beginning to doubt you did, you would have noticed I never defended or justified sexism.
I was merely commenting on the presumption of this whole thread, which I feel is important. If you disagree with that, fine. But I just hope you can understand, though it seems you've already made up your mind about me, why I felt it was necessary to elucidate my opinion so strongly.
Anyway, I have explained myself and my opinion as good as I can. If some of you consider me to be a sexist, so be it.
I think sexism is a serious problem and I was ready to debate it. I no longer want to discuss it here because I already know what's ahead of me if I were to engage is such a debate - especially if using your mind is considered wrong.
naděje umírá poslední
We're all guilty of a little sexism and racism, it's all me-ism (or everybody else-ism i'm not quite sure) and strength in numbers. The trick is to recognise it, make amends for it, and make sure it doesnt overly perverse our actions and view of reality.
If we can't recognise motivation in the words we feel to use and the actions we feel to take, how else can we possibly recognise it? quantifying the possibilities of language is a fine way to use your intelligence, an excellent way! but it doesnt alter the reality of it.
And im only winding you up calling you whatever.
i feel like Jerry Springer now. Wish i looked like the handsome bastard.
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Imo, most people don't intend to be racist or sexist. They do so unconsciously. Meaning, they honestly do so from a position of lack of understanding. They may use the b-word to insult, but have no intent to perpetuate sexism. And yet, the way I see it, they do just that--they continue to perpetuate the cycles. People do it regarding mentally ill people. They do it regarding all kinds of power-minorities.
We all live in a patriarchical society, where the illusion exists that women have equal power, which just is not true. It's so insidious and pervasive how this is not true. It's been very interesting. I've talked about this subject many times on this board. In each thread I've done so, numeous men come in and tell me how silly the idea is. And yet, it's lunacy the degree women act other than their true dictates tell them, in order to "thrive" in a "man's world". I read in a book, once, that doing so actually changes the natural way a woman's brain functions! And the natural functioning of the female brain has distinct advantages over the typical male-functioning. In the western world (including Europe), we generally subscribe to "masculine" ways of processing information (being logical and objective), and we all -- male and female -- are conditioned to diminish and discard our more predominantly feminine ways of processing information (emotional and intuitive). Most of the people I gravitate to on this board (yourself included) are naturally gifted with ways of processing information that are beyond the patriarchical and typically male ways, and yet we pay the price everyday for being outside "the norm".
The problem that I see is that this is so insidious, and so normal, and that both males and females give up balance in order to adhere to what we've internalized, being the male dominance that is so natural to us, that we barely recognize the indicators that this imbalance is rampant. And still it is. I foresee a day in the future when we awaken to how horribly debilitating this sexist mindset has been against women and feminine power, and for the healing of all of us -- both sides of the coin of this rampant imbalance. We will see how this minimization of such vast areas of our human-power has led to so much repression and imbalance for all of us. Those who perpetuate the cycles do so from lack and ignorance, because to understand what's really happening, one would never ever be able to continue doing so...this loss of humanity for both females AND males is far, far too high.
I see femininist women who, while missing the underlying dynamics of what's going on, perpetuate the cycles. I see women who see themselves as independent and strong, bowing down to the "acceptable male ways" all the time, giving male-dominated ways power. And in the end, this patriarchical way kills men 20 years earlier than women on the whole, so it's not that anyone really "wins" anyway!
We do need to shift to the humanitarian view. However, in order to truly do so without perpetuating imbalance, we need to embrace fully, both the male and female aspects within the humanitarian stance.
And interestingly, psychology acknowledges that developing such a balance between ALL genders, embracing the male and female within, we come into a true place of inner harmony and therefore wholeness (psychological androgyny or balancing the "anima/animus").
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http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
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If Springer had said all that no-one would have listened long enough to learn anything!!..:)
At the same time... Collin pointed out one key issue...That you are making one view "right" (yours) and another view wrong (not yours)..... It's the win/lose, right/wrong mindset, where one view must trump another, that is key to the patriarchical mindset that has humans across the globe unable to move to the next level of human evolution. It's a linear and logical point of view that says two opposing ideas cannot exist at the same time and be equally valid.
Women's brains typically can process information much more effectively laterally, meaning they can hold all kinds of opposing views at once, without needing to "resolve" them. (women have much thicker connections between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, allowing them to more readily accept "what is". They then can multi-task. and jump from decision making to nurturing in short spans ... women and left-handed men...)
I do agree with you from earlier, however, that if someone...say Collin for example, wants to call a woman the b-word, and wants to justify it (I mean in reality, as opposed to in an intellectual exercise...and knowing Collin, he's probably one of the least sexist people I know, and with huge potential to be THE least over his lifespan), he (or she in other cases) does point to an underlying nefarious intent they are not conscious of. Such is the nature of the indicators we use that give us away. Using that word in terms of women is a great indictor of misogyny to me...in men and women. I see people using the term without realizing what it really points to. However, I also well-know many who are in the know...and who take those signs very seriously. It's by becoming conscious in such ways myself that I easily know who is where I am, and who is not. This is why there is an awake minority who walk around and can see through people, and can readily see where to move, and where not to. At one time, I denied my own awareness and justifyied the unjustifiable in others because I saw they "didn't know any better", and I therefore accepted and lived amongst people who justified abuse over and over. Of course, I also lived the consequences of getting in the line of that fire.
All over this board there exists a majority of people who are against degredation on one level, and then turn around and excuse and justify it in other situations. And then such individuals are completely oblivious to their own imbalance that they willfully enact. And yet, there are those who see beyond, and see right through what's happening, and who no longer enable it.
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