is sexism more tolerated that racism?

Thecure

Collin wrote:

Come to think of it, by linking the word bitch (which I believe isn't considered sexist by the majority of people, which I think you'll agree with or this thread wouldn't exist) you are perpetuating sexism even more.

Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.

You are holding on to an archaic meaning, while its modern meaning doesn't have the same connotation (which is the case with nigger). Today, people consider it a equivalent of the word 'asshole' or any other insult, not specifically linked to sexism but to characteristics.

There's a Dutch (Flemish maybe?) word 'wijf' which has a very negative, maybe even sexist connotation. But historically the world was perfectly normal it simple meant 'wife' (Germanic roots obviously still visable). Its meaning shifted over time to a negative meaning. Does this mean it's ok to use that term because historically it just meant wijf (or even woman)?

No, the meaning is no longer the same and today it is offensive.

Why insist on linking the word bitch to sexism when clearly the majority of people do not see this link. They will use 'bitch' regardless of what you believe it means or which weight you think it carries. Why not accept bitch as an insult for women that is not linked to sexism. (whether one should insult people is a different discussion)

Just a thought.

that is a very thoughtful post, but it still seems to me that you are saying that becuase bitch does not carry the same meaning as before does not neccessary mean that it is not sexist, it could go back to my original questions of is sexism more toleranted that rasism. maybe bitch does not have teh same meaning because we don't realize that bitch is a sexist word.

you asked me a questiosn before about my definition of bitch and sexism so i will answer that. i believe that sexism that the belief that one sex is better that another gender. would you agree on that?

also Bitch is also commonly use for what animal? a dog. so if you agree that sexism is the beliefe that one gender is better that another would you not consider calling a women a dog i.e. bitch is believing that teh other render is saying that they are better?

finally, if you look at teh history of women, you can see many similarities between black people and women. i am not saying that they are same history but you will notice major themes.

also i am so sorry for the spelling mistakes.

Thecure

Collin wrote:

Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.



My professor is a female. She is a female jerk, asshole, dick, rude person. She has female characteristics + she is rude, arrogant, unpleasant etc.

I'd say the definition of bitch fits.




But that's ridiculous. So you cannot 'insult' a woman with a female word? She is FEMALE it is logical to use a word that refers back to her gender.



I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.

It's a bad analogy because the connotation. If you think bitch has the same connotation as nigger, you are mistaken. Simple as that.

Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.



Bitch has the same connotation, huh?




Please give me your definition of bitch.

By calling this arrogant, rude, unpleasant, offensive, insulting woman a bitch I am insulting women in general?

Give me a gender-neutral word, by the way, that has the same connotation as asshole.



I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).

I can't give you a reply until you give me a full definition of the word bitch. Not a vague definition like "the historical meaning of bitch is sexist".






I can easily prove the word nigger is racist. Show me how the word bitch is sexist like the word nigger is racist.

And please, I reinforce sexism because I call an extremely unpleasant, rude, mean, selfish dragon a bitch? It's funny how every girl I know (and there are a lot more girls than guys at my school) agrees that she's a bitch, not one of them, not one has ever said: hey, you're reinforcing sexism, you should use a gender-neutral word.

So right now, to me, the majority of women does not think bitch is a sexist word. So you'll need something to back up your claim.



See, again sexism No, bitch is not considered sexist by the female gender. The majority of women I know do not consider bitch a sexist word. So perhaps you should change your statement to: "until it is perceived by the male and female gender, it will alaways be a problem.

Also, I explained already. Nigger refers to race and solely to race. Bitch on the other hand refers to unfavourable qualities in a female person.

Sure, I could name each quality separately and add woman at the end i.e. she's a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean woman. Just like I could say that a man is a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean man. However, I'd say he's an asshole. It sums up the whole list. Similarly, bitch sums up the whole list but it is a female word (remember, we are talking about a female). So, she has the negative qualities (which are negative in any person) and she is female. I don't add an extra gender-linked insult, she just happens to be female and bitch just happens to be a female word.

Perhaps I should ask my professor's opinion, the bitch is an English professor

you put a story abotu how black people were treated so i will post stories from teh past and present abotu women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
http://bible-wonderings.blogspot.com/2006/01/women-and-slaves-in-genesis.html
http://vodpod.com/watch/39178-japans-comfort-women-slaves-forced-to-provide-sex-during-world-war-ii
http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/svaw_overview.php

i don't do this to downplay what black people went through and i hope that no-one believe that this is my intention.

_

Collin wrote:

Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the word bitch DOES refer to women in general whether you like it or not and your intention is irrelevant. Using this word to refer to an individual woman is an insult to all women.

Collin wrote:

I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.

That’s not what I said. I said people who find disrespect of women less significant are likely to see it as a bad analogy. That’s absolutely not the same thing as saying that people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant. It’s like how saying “all mothers are women” does not in any way mean “all women are mothers.”

Collin wrote:

Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.

A. I haven’t claimed that the weight of the words are the same, only that they’re the same kind of words.

B. Are you saying that if women were treated worse, then these words would be analogous?

Collin wrote:

Please give me your definition of bitch.

The word bitch refers to the female of particular species, usually dogs. Bitch=female. So by saying bitch=bad, you’re saying female=bad.

Collin wrote:

Give me a gender-neutral word, by the way, that has the same connotation as asshole.

Asshole. Fucker. Piece of shit. Dumbass.

Collin wrote:

I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).

Oh, please. :rolleyes: I wasn’t expressing personal doubt and you know it.

I am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.

Collin wrote:

See, again sexism No, bitch is not considered sexist by the female gender. The majority of women I know do not consider bitch a sexist word. So perhaps you should change your statement to: "until it is perceived by the male and female gender, it will alaways be a problem.

A. You are quoting someone else. I never said bitch is perceived as sexist by the female gender.

B. Just because women (or at least the women you know) don’t consider something sexist doesn’t mean it’s not sexist.

C. I agree that it will be a problem until it is perceived as sexist by the male and female genders. I was just adding on to what the other poster said.

Out of curiousity, are there any words/insults that you DO consider to be sexist?

_

Collin wrote:

Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.

It's short-sighted to try to understand a word outside its historical context. Perhaps word meanings shift, but this happens over hundreds of years. Just because you, your friends, and the media want to disregard the sexist roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.

The majority of people have only recently come to see nigger as a racist word. Was it not a racist word 100 years ago?

_

Thecure wrote:

you put a story abotu how black people were treated so i will post stories from teh past and present abotu women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
http://bible-wonderings.blogspot.com/2006/01/women-and-slaves-in-genesis.html
http://vodpod.com/watch/39178-japans-comfort-women-slaves-forced-to-provide-sex-during-world-war-ii
http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/svaw_overview.php

i don't do this to downplay what black people went through and i hope that no-one believe that this is my intention.

Thank you!

And let's not forget female genital mutilation and femicide, both still quite common today.

Collin

Thecure wrote:

that is a very thoughtful post, but it still seems to me that you are saying that becuase bitch does not carry the same meaning as before does not neccessary mean that it is not sexist, it could go back to my original questions of is sexism more toleranted that rasism.

To me it seems the connotation of bitch is one of characteristics, not of gender. I believe the majority of the people think this as well.

I think that the notion that the word bitch has a sexist connotation is a minority view. Just as the belief that the Dutch word 'wijf' is acceptable because it was historically a normal word is also a minority view.

Your question is based on the presumption that bitch is a sexist word. I say it isn't, I say it's not a sexist insult, that it has lost its sexist connotation - and I believe the majority of the people feel this way as well.
If you tell the people who say that bitch is not a sexist word that it really is one, then you are adding the sexist connotation. They see it as non-sexist, only insulting based on characteristics. In this catagory there exist many words for both males and females, you even said it was specifically the word "bitch", and other insults were "ok" i.e. not sexist, but "angry words".

maybe bitch does not have teh same meaning because we don't realize that bitch is a sexist word.

Maybe we don't realize it's a sexist word because it just isn't (anymore). Why go and add a sexist meaning to a word? The meaning has shifted. From 'sexist' to 'rude, arrogant, mean, selfish...'

I think the semantic meaning of the word nigger has not shifted.

So I think it's not a good idea to judge whether sexism is more tolerated than racism by looking at the usage of the words 'bitch' and 'nigger'. I think bitch is not linked to sexism by the majority, but nigger is.

you asked me a questiosn before about my definition of bitch and sexism so i will answer that. i believe that sexism that the belief that one sex is better that another gender. would you agree on that?

Yes.

also Bitch is also commonly use for what animal? a dog. so if you agree that sexism is the beliefe that one gender is better that another would you not consider calling a women a dog i.e. bitch is believing that teh other render is saying that they are better?

No I would not. If that were true, any insult is sexist, male or female. That's the definition of an insult, calling something negative, a negative name that does not apply to you. That means you think you are more 'positive' or better than the other person. People insult men and women equally, I think.

If you want to debate whether or not it is ever right to insult a woman, or anyone for that matter, it's a different debate, not one of sexism.

finally, if you look at teh history of women, you can see many similarities between black people and women. i am not saying that they are same history but you will notice major themes.

Persecution? I'm sorry I don't. Unfair treatment, yes, but not in the same degree. Major themes of treatment of black people in the US include rape, separating families, little children being sold, being regarded as less than human, not even recognized in front of law, slavery, taken away every freedom, no free speech, no right to start a family, only mate to raise the value of a plantation through more labour force, or to sell the kids as slaves. During this period when white people considered black people less than human the word 'nigger' described their fucked up view of what a black person was.

Please tell me where this has been done to the entire female gender, and how bitch was used like the word nigger.

Collin

scb wrote:

A. I haven’t claimed that the weight of the words are the same, only that they’re the same kind of words.

B. Are you saying that if women were treated worse, then these words would be analogous?

No, but if women were historically treated as black people the words would be on a more even level. They would not mean the same, however.

A. You are quoting someone else. I never said bitch is perceived as sexist by the female gender.

Well, sorry I thought because that was the part you bolded, you agreed with it. I didn't know you made that the focal point of that post to show you don't agree.

B. Just because women (or at least the women you know) don’t consider something sexist doesn’t mean it’s not sexist.

Just because you and people you know do consider it a sexist word, doesn't make it one.

Out of curiousity, are there any words/insults that you DO consider to be sexist?

Any word could be sexist, I think. If you use it to stress the notion that you believe one gender is less capable or not equal. If you, for instance, call a woman a slut because she slept with three guys on a night but you don't call a guy who slept with three girls a man whore or a word which carries the same meaning as slut, you are using that word in a sexist way.

Collin

scb wrote:

It's short-sighted to try to understand a word outside its historical context. Perhaps word meanings shift, but this happens over hundreds of years. Just because you, your friends, and the media want to disregard the sexist roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.

Ok, so the word 'wijf' in dutch isn't offensive. Just because you, your friends and the media want to disregard the good, normal roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.

Yes, it does! A meaning is gone in the public mind, you are adding it.

_

Collin wrote:

Any word could be sexist, I think. If you use it to stress the notion that you believe one gender is less capable or not equal. If you, for instance, call a woman a slut because she slept with three guys on a night but you don't call a guy who slept with three girls a man whore or a word which carries the same meaning as slut, you are using that word in a sexist way.

This is where I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about a piori meaning and power. I'm not asking if you think words can be used in a sexist way. I'm asking whether there are any words which you believe are inherently sexist.

_

Collin wrote:

Ok, so the word 'wijf' in dutch isn't offensive. Just because you, your friends and the media want to disregard the good, normal roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.

Yes, it does! A meaning is gone in the public mind, you are adding it.

I can't comment about words I don't know.

_

Collin wrote:

Persecution? I'm sorry I don't. Unfair treatment, yes, but not in the same degree. Major themes of treatment of black people in the US include rape, separating families, little children being sold, being regarded as less than human, not even recognized in front of law, slavery, taken away every freedom, no free speech, no right to start a family, only mate to raise the value of a plantation through more labour force, or to sell the kids as slaves. During this period when white people considered black people less than human the word 'nigger' described their fucked up view of what a black person was.

Please tell me where this has been done to the entire female gender, and how bitch was used like the word nigger.

Does it have to be done to every single member of a gender/race/whatever to count? Or does it count if it happens to an individual or group because of their gender/race/whatever?

I would argue that woman have been (and in many cases, are still being) subjected to everything you listed above.

Here's an interesting question: When a black woman is raped, is she raped because she's black or because she's a woman? When the girls in Mexico are murdered, is it because they're Mexican (or Guatemalan) or because they're women? When a child is sold as a sex slave, is it because she's [whatever] or because she's a woman?

Dylan Stone

Don't call me a bitch.

Seriously....

It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.

Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.

If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?

Collin

scb wrote:

This is where I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about a piori meaning and power. I'm not asking if you think words can be used in a sexist way. I'm asking whether there are any words which you believe are inherently sexist.

That's a tough question. There might be words like that, I can't think of any word right now.

One could argue that words don't have an inherent meaning because we use or create words to describe a reality, we link a concept, an idea or a reality to a word, however, we can also use that word to describe another reality and over time, the meaning, the semantic weight can shift from one describing one 'reality' to another 'reality'. I do think you should only consider such a shift when the majority of language users accept this shift.

I think this is the case with the word bitch but not with the word nigger.

Collin

scb wrote:

Does it have to be done to every single member of a gender/race/whatever to count? Or does it count if it happens to an individual or group because of their gender/race/whatever?

Yes, it has to be more than an individual or a smaller group, it doesn't have to be done to every single member but to the majority of the people or as in same percentages if you are talking about the similarities of the words 'nigger' and 'bitch' and the weight of the connotation they carry.

If 99% of all the black people were given the treatment I mentioned before and 1% of the women received a similar treatment I'd say there's a huge difference.

I would argue that woman have been (and in many cases, are still being) subjected to everything you listed above.

The question is, is it as a result of sexism or just plain disregard of humans in general, regardless of gender.

Not that it matters, though. The original argument was about how sexism was more tolerated than racism, back up by the fact that bitch was used more often than nigger and people have different reactions to the two words.

We were not discussing actions, if you want to discuss how sexism is more tolerated than racism and you base your claim on actions, I can debate that too and I'm not sure I'd disagree. But you use the idea that bitch is not regarded as sexist by the majority of people to say sexism is more accepted. I already explained why I disagreed with that.

Here's an interesting question: When a black woman is raped, is she raped because she's black or because she's a woman? When the girls in Mexico are murdered, is it because they're Mexican (or Guatemalan) or because they're women? When a child is sold as a sex slave, is it because she's [whatever] or because she's a woman?

I don't know the answer to these questions. A woman can be raped because she's black or because she's a woman etc.

Collin

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

Don't call me a bitch.

Seriously....

It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.

Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.

If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?

Are you the official spokesperson of the group it refers to i.e. women? No, you are not. Neither is Helen. You both have different opinions. So, I wouldn't say it's 'end of story'. (Helen would call this a lazy form of debate )

Look, I already explained how I feel about the usage of bitch. We are talking about a horrendous person, not you.

If a person would call all women bitches, that would be sexist, I think. (yet again one could argue if he call every single person a bad name regardless of gender, he'd not be sexist)

Collin

Thecure wrote:

you put a story abotu how black people were treated so i will post stories from teh past and present abotu women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery

"Female slaves are at highest risk of sexual abuse and sexual slavery."

This is not a sexist thing per se.

http://bible-wonderings.blogspot.com/2006/01/women-and-slaves-in-genesis.html

This is well over two thousand years old. And I disagree with a lot of things in the OT, the depiction of women is one.

http://vodpod.com/watch/39178-japans-comfort-women-slaves-forced-to-provide-sex-during-world-war-ii

This is absolutely disgusting. Never argued there wasn't any violence against women in history. Although, again to have a similar sematic weight, one must look at the whole context. What's the percentage of women were forced into this?

I'm not condoning this, even if it were only one it would be one too many! This is never acceptable.

http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/svaw_overview.php

Violence against woman exists, however, not all violence against women stems from sexism. Likewise not all violence against black people stems from racism. I hit a black guy once and I can assure you there was nothing racist about my actions, if a white guy had done what he did, I would have punched him as well. I would never, however, punch a woman.

I'm not saying there isn't more violence against women (I have no idea actually about the numbers), and I'm definitely not saying it isn't problematic.

Violence against slaves was condoned because of the status slaves had, and they had that status soley based on race. One could say this status had the title 'nigger'.

I could agree that a similar sexist label existed or exists for women and because of this inferior label, the view that women are inferior, violence against women was committed and condoned, I cannot agree that that label was historically linked to the word 'bitch'. Therefore, I believe the two words carry a different semantic weight, which was my point.

i don't do this to downplay what black people went through and i hope that no-one believe that this is my intention.

No worries, I don't think that and would not believe it.

scb wrote:

And let's not forget female genital mutilation and femicide, both still quite common today.

Genital mutilation again is not linked with the word bitch, neither is femicide.

_

Collin wrote:

Yes, it has to be more than an individual or a smaller group, it doesn't have to be done to every single member but to the majority of the people or as in same percentages if you are talking about the similarities of the words 'nigger' and 'bitch' and the weight of the connotation they carry.

If 99% of all the black people were given the treatment I mentioned before and 1% of the women received a similar treatment I'd say there's a huge difference.

You say that it doesn't count if we break it down into smaller groups, but you are breaking the black race down into a very specific group of people in a certain location during a certain time period. So I believe your comparison is to a very specific group of white women in the US during that same small time period. That completely disregards the majority of women, who exist worldwide, in various colors, throughout history. You can't use that one tiny minority of women to represent women as a whole.

Or are you comparing black slaves in the US to all women worldwide from the beginning of time to the present and saying only 1% of those women have been persecuted?

Collin wrote:

We were not discussing actions, if you want to discuss how sexism is more tolerated than racism and you base your claim on actions, I can debate that too and I'm not sure I'd disagree. But you use the idea that bitch is not regarded as sexist by the majority of people to say sexism is more accepted. I already explained why I disagreed with that.

I am merely responding to your claim that nigger is a less acceptable word than bitch because black people were/are treated worse than women. You listed ways in which black people were treated worse than woman. I am saying women are treated that way too.

Collin wrote:

I don't know the answer to these questions. A woman can be raped because she's black or because she's a woman etc.

But rape is specific to women, not to black people.

(Yes, I realize men can be raped as well, but it's a very rare occurance compared to the rape of women and when it happens it's usually to demasculinize the man, in effect turning him into a woman by treating him as one.)

Collin

scb wrote:

You say that it doesn't count if we break it down into smaller groups, but you are breaking the black race down into a very specific group of people in a certain location during a certain time period.

I am indeed talking about a specific group, however, the world nigger was not confined to define this group, it applied to all black people, regardless of location.

So I believe your comparison is to a very specific group of white women in the US during that same small time period. That completely disregards the majority of women, who exist worldwide, in various colors, throughout history. You can't use that one tiny minority of women to represent women as a whole.

We are talking about the word bitch, wich is an English word. You say bitch is historically linked to abuse of women or sexism just like the word nigger is historically linked to abuse of black people and thus to racism. The word bitch cannot be historically linked to sexism in France, Mexico, Thailand because English is not the language there. So in order for it to be historically linked to sexism, like nigger is linked to racism, it has to be an example from a English speaking nation.

Or are you comparing black slaves in the US to all women worldwide from the beginning of time to the present and saying only 1% of those women have been persecuted?

No.

I am merely responding to your claim that nigger is a less acceptable word than bitch because black people were/are treated worse than women. You listed ways in which black people were treated worse than woman. I am saying women are treated that way too.

You are twisting my words, I did not claim that. I have stated plenty of times why I believe the two words don't have the same weight.

But rape is specific to women, not to black people.

Rape can be a racist crime i.e. with the intent of hurting someone of a specific race. Then it is race related, not gender related.

Thecure

Collin wrote:

"Female slaves are at highest risk of sexual abuse and sexual slavery."

This is not a sexist thing per se.



This is well over two thousand years old. And I disagree with a lot of things in the OT, the depiction of women is one.



This is absolutely disgusting. Never argued there wasn't any violence against women in history. Although, again to have a similar sematic weight, one must look at the whole context. What's the percentage of women were forced into this?

I'm not condoning this, even if it were only one it would be one too many! This is never acceptable.



Violence against woman exists, however, not all violence against women stems from sexism. Likewise not all violence against black people stems from racism. I hit a black guy once and I can assure you there was nothing racist about my actions, if a white guy had done what he did, I would have punched him as well. I would never, however, punch a woman.

I'm not saying there isn't more violence against women (I have no idea actually about the numbers), and I'm definitely not saying it isn't problematic.

Violence against slaves was condoned because of the status slaves had, and they had that status soley based on race. One could say this status had the title 'nigger'.

I could agree that a similar sexist label existed or exists for women and because of this inferior label, the view that women are inferior, violence against women was committed and condoned, I cannot agree that that label was historically linked to the word 'bitch'. Therefore, I believe the two words carry a different semantic weight, which was my point.




No worries, I don't think that and would not believe it.



Genital mutilation again is not linked with the word bitch, neither is femicide.

to begin, i have to say sorry because i think i may have made this tread move away from sexism in general to now talking about one word. however, i would say that i don't agree with your statement abotu your quote about that female sexual abuse is not sexism per ce. i believe that it is and the reason that i say this is that the people who are abusing those women are doing so becuase they don't feel that those women are not on the same level as they are. and from my defintion that i posted before that you agree with that is sexism.

Collin

Thecure wrote:

to begin, i have to say sorry because i think i may have made this tread move away from sexism in general to now talking about one word. however, i would say that i don't agree with your statement abotu your quote about that female sexual abuse is not sexism per ce. i believe that it is and the reason that i say this is that the people who are abusing those women are doing so becuase they don't feel that those women are not on the same level as they are. and from my defintion that i posted before that you agree with that is sexism.

Show me where I said female sexual abuse is not sexism per se.