But the word itself is a gendered word, regardless of whether you intend it to be that way. Just as with the word "nigger," you can't separate it from its historical context.
Of course it's a gendered word. She's female. She's a real asshole, or a dick or a prick, doesn't work, imo.
Historical context? Bitch has no where near the same connotation as nigger.
So regardless of whether someone is rude, aggressive, offensive, or insulting, if you take a word that ultimately refers back to women and use it as an insult, that's sexist.
Ok, for now on I will use words that refer to males when I want to call a arrogant, rude, annoying and unpleasant woman a name.
That doesn't make any sense. If a woman is aggressive, rude, offensive, insulting, unpleasant her actions and behaviour can be described by the word bitch. Please explain to me how that is sexism i.e. how that means I think that woman in less intelligent, less capable, less skilful... If a woman treats everyone around her like a piece of shit, I think it would be correct, semantically, to use the word bitch.
When you call a woman a bitch because she isn't submissive or talks back when you're being offensive in the first place, that would be sexism.
why don't you call her rude then? or extremely unpleasant? the word bitch historically is gendered and offensive to women regardless to whom it is applied. if it wasn't, and if sexism wasn't a problem, we wouldn't still be having these conversations.
edit: this seems to be a repeat of sorts. sorry!
So whenever someone insults a woman it is automatically sexism? That's bullshit.
Of course sexism is a problem.
Seems to me you all have a very broad (and wrong) definition of sexism. It seems that any criticism towards women is sexism according to you. It just isn't.
Please give me your definition of sexism and of the word bitch.
You're exactly right, Collin. It isn't even close. In fact, it is a completely rdiculous comparison.
well you could say that the reason that you think that i sbecause sexism is more tolerated that racism. we believe that the N word is worse because we have come to the conclusion that what it means is bad while we have not come to the same conclusion with bitch, slut, tramp.
i don't know if that is right but it could be stated.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
well you could say that the reason that you think that i sbecause sexism is more tolerated that racism. we believe that the N word is worse because we have come to the conclusion that what it means is bad while we have not come to the same conclusion with bitch, slut, tramp.
i don't know if that is right but it could be stated.
YES.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Sure, I can say she is rude, unpleasant and arrogant and sometimes I do. Are you seriously saying a person can never call someone a name? That's ridiculous.
It's not about gender roles, maybe it is with you not with me.
the questions could be asked that does it matter if it is not about gender roles for you or does it matter if the person get insulted by the term?
and also i am not saying that you can't call people names but should you use terms that hav ebeen said to a certian population for a very long. you can call the person an asshole, idiot and rude. those are all names it just seems to me that we have gotten so used to using bitch, slut, tramp that we forget what names are.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
well you could say that the reason that you think that i sbecause sexism is more tolerated that racism. we believe that the N word is worse because we have come to the conclusion that what it means is bad while we have not come to the same conclusion with bitch, slut, tramp.
i don't know if that is right but it could be stated.
It could be stated, but i don't agree with the statement. i don't see "bitch" as a sexist term. No more than calling a man a a**hole. The Nword is entirely different. The historical connotations and ramifications of that word are HUGE.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
well you could say that the reason that you think that i sbecause sexism is more tolerated that racism. we believe that the N word is worse because we have come to the conclusion that what it means is bad while we have not come to the same conclusion with bitch, slut, tramp.
i don't know if that is right but it could be stated.
There is a huge difference between the two.
Nigger was historically used to describe black people, but black people were not considered 'human', they were considered savage beasts, in fact, they were considered less than beasts because you could use a dead animal for food, and you could use their hides. A black person was a beast, a mule, that could only be used for labour and profits. If they couldn't be used for work or couldn't be sold, they were killed in the most brutal way. Even when they worked or were sold they were abuse in the most horrific ways.
Slut, tramp and bitch, although all offensive, do not have this connotation. They have a negative connotation. The difference is, if a woman behaves according to that connotation, according to the definition of these words she could be labeled as such. Is it rude and offensive? Certainly. Is it sexist? No. However it does become sexist if one holds a different standard for men, which is often the case. A woman who has casual sex is referred to as a slut or a whore, a man who behaves in such as way is called "the man" and is applauded by his friends, and not judged by society in general.
These words can no doubt be sexist, but aren't necessarily sexist, imo.
The word nigger is always racist. When you refer to black people as niggers you are basically equating them to dumb savage beasts, less than human. I don't think any human deserves a title so negative, so low and so disrespectful. It is solely based on race and prejudice.
However, slut is not. It is based on behaviour and so women might still behave in a slutty way. Again, if one doesn't use the same or an equal label for men behaving in the same way it would be sexism.
Also, the n word is worse because the connotation is worse. Not because society tells us so.
the questions could be asked that does it matter if it is not about gender roles for you or does it matter if the person get insulted by the term?
and also i am not saying that you can't call people names but should you use terms that hav ebeen said to a certian population for a very long. you can call the person an asshole, idiot and rude. those are all names it just seems to me that we have gotten so used to using bitch, slut, tramp that we forget what names are.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because to me bitch isn't a sexist word per se.
edit: could you or VictoryGin please give me your definition of sexism and of the word bitch?
But the word itself is a gendered word, regardless of whether you intend it to be that way. Just as with the word "nigger," you can't separate it from its historical context. You can't call a white woman a "nigger" and expect that to be more acceptable just because you mean it in a different context than it was originally intended. So regardless of whether someone is rude, aggressive, offensive, or insulting, if you take a word that ultimately refers back to women and use it as an insult, that's sexist.
why don't you call her rude then? or extremely unpleasant? the word bitch historically is gendered and offensive to women regardless to whom it is applied. if it wasn't, and if sexism wasn't a problem, we wouldn't still be having these conversations.
I totally agree with you both.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i guess what it boils down to is that if by my usage of these words someone is perceived as sexist by the female gender - i need to be more aware of it but i've never heard of it like that ...
imo - being called a bitch or asshole is the exact same thing
Until it is perceived as sexist by the male gender as well, it will always be a problem.
Thankfully, there are some men who already understand this.
**And now - I'd like to take this opportunity to say thank you to those men!**
our entire society is based on segregating us based on our differences, and in those segregations we can alienate.
black vs light skin black
freckled vs tanned
blondes vs brunettes
tall vs short
this religion vs that religion
poor vs rich
this nationality vs that nationality
hotties vs uggo's
freaks vs geeks (ok, now I'm getting carried away)
how about HUMAN first? no vs....
Is it so surprising the things that we tolerate and how easily we discriminate again?
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
Of course it's a gendered word. She's female. She's a real asshole, or a dick or a prick, doesn't work, imo.
It's not a gendered word because of the person to whom it's applied. (It would still be a gendered word if applied to a man.) It's a gendered word because of the group of people to whom it refers back.
The word bitch, by definition and in historical usage, is inextricably linked with the characteristic of being female. So when you use it as a synonym for asshole or whatever, you automatically add an extra, gendered layer of insult. And if you called someone a black bitch, that would add an additional layer of meaning/insult, and so on.
Historical context? Bitch has no where near the same connotation as nigger.
The analogy comes from the fact that they are both words which were/are meant to subjugate a specific category of people.
But I can see how it would be viewed as a bad analogy by those people/societies which find the disrespect of women to be less significant than the disrespect of black people. (No, that was not meant as a personal insult.)
That doesn't make any sense. If a woman is aggressive, rude, offensive, insulting, unpleasant her actions and behaviour can be described by the word bitch. Please explain to me how that is sexism
Words have meaning and power regardless of your intentions. This word is has an extra layer of meaning in that it references this specific gender (as a category).
That which is demeaning to women (as a category) (or any gender, one might argue) is sexist. Because the word bitch links a specific (and historically powerless) gender to a negative connotation, it is demeaning to that gender as a whole. Therefore, it is sexist.
i.e. how that means I think that woman in less intelligent, less capable, less skilful...
No one ever said that you personally think women are less intelligent, capable, or skillfull. You have now shifted the topic from how to identify/define a sexist word to how to identify/define a sexist individual. That's perhaps a whole other issue.
Given that the word is sexist and words have power, there's no doubt that your use of the word reinforces sexism. But whether or not that necessarily makes you sexist is quite debatable. (I'd probably say it doesn't.) And your personal beliefs about women are known to no one but yourself.
yes, indeed, she's actually just adding my name on the end, so now she has four. It is her choice to do it or not I guess, still I do not envy the whole changing of the name on every government document.
Some guys have already started going through that paperwork.
My husband and I are considering changing our surnames to something we can agree on. Although, since we work for the same employer, sometimes it's nice having different last names. :rolleyes:
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
It's not a gendered word because of the person to whom it's applied. (It would still be a gendered word if applied to a man.) It's a gendered word because of the group of people to whom it refers back.
Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.
The word bitch, by definition and in historical usage, is inextricably linked with the characteristic of being female.
My professor is a female. She is a female jerk, asshole, dick, rude person. She has female characteristics + she is rude, arrogant, unpleasant etc.
I'd say the definition of bitch fits.
So when you use it as a synonym for asshole or whatever, you automatically add an extra, gendered layer of insult. And if you called someone a black bitch, that would add an additional layer of meaning/insult, and so on.
But that's ridiculous. So you cannot 'insult' a woman with a female word? She is FEMALE it is logical to use a word that refers back to her gender.
The analogy comes from the fact that they are both words which were/are meant to subjugate a specific category of people.
But I can see how it would be viewed as a bad analogy by those people/societies which find the disrespect of women to be less significant than the disrespect of black people. (No, that was not meant as a personal insult.)
I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.
It's a bad analogy because the connotation. If you think bitch has the same connotation as nigger, you are mistaken. Simple as that.
Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.
Life on the plantations was hard, and no consideration was given to the cultural traditions of blacks. In the slave market men were separated from their wives, and frequently children were taken from their mothers. Family and tribal links were thus almost immediately cut.
Overseers were harsh as a matter of general practice, and brutality was common. Punishment was meted out at the absolute discretion of the owner or the owner's agent. Slaves could own no property unless sanctioned by a slave master, and rape of a female slave was not considered a crime except as it represented trespassing on another's property. Slaves could not present evidence in court against whites. Housing, food, and clothing were of poor quality and seldom exceeded what was considered minimally necessary to maintain the desired level of work. Owners reinforced submissive behavior not so much by positive rewards as by severe punishment of those who did not conform. In most of the South it was illegal to teach a black to read or write.
Bitch has the same connotation, huh?
Why don't you just choose a word that's gender-neutral, that doesn't go that extra mile to insult women particularly?
Please give me your definition of bitch.
By calling this arrogant, rude, unpleasant, offensive, insulting woman a bitch I am insulting women in general?
Give me a gender-neutral word, by the way, that has the same connotation as asshole.
Words have meaning and power regardless of your intentions. This word is has an extra layer of meaning in that it references this specific gender (as a category).
That which is demeaning to women (as a category) (or any gender, one might argue) is sexist. Because the word bitch links a specific (and historically powerless) gender to a negative connotation, it is demeaning to that gender as a whole. Therefore, it is sexist.
I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).
I can't give you a reply until you give me a full definition of the word bitch. Not a vague definition like "the historical meaning of bitch is sexist".
No one ever said that you personally think women are less intelligent, capable, or skillfull. You have now shifted the topic from how to identify/define a sexist word to how to identify/define a sexist individual. That's perhaps a whole other issue.
Given that the word is sexist and words have power, there's no doubt that your use of the word reinforces sexism.
I can easily prove the word nigger is racist. Show me how the word bitch is sexist like the word nigger is racist.
And please, I reinforce sexism because I call an extremely unpleasant, rude, mean, selfish dragon a bitch? It's funny how every girl I know (and there are a lot more girls than guys at my school) agrees that she's a bitch, not one of them, not one has ever said: hey, you're reinforcing sexism, you should use a gender-neutral word.
So right now, to me, the majority of women does not think bitch is a sexist word. So you'll need something to back up your claim.
Until it is perceived as sexist by the male gender as well, it will always be a problem.]
See, again sexism No, bitch is not considered sexist by the female gender. The majority of women I know do not consider bitch a sexist word. So perhaps you should change your statement to: "until it is perceived by the male and female gender, it will alaways be a problem.
Also, I explained already. Nigger refers to race and solely to race. Bitch on the other hand refers to unfavourable qualities in a female person.
Sure, I could name each quality separately and add woman at the end i.e. she's a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean woman. Just like I could say that a man is a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean man. However, I'd say he's an asshole. It sums up the whole list. Similarly, bitch sums up the whole list but it is a female word (remember, we are talking about a female). So, she has the negative qualities (which are negative in any person) and she is female. I don't add an extra gender-linked insult, she just happens to be female and bitch just happens to be a female word.
Perhaps I should ask my professor's opinion, the bitch is an English professor
Why don't you just choose a word that's gender-neutral, that doesn't go that extra mile to insult women particularly?
Seriously? If someone calls me a bitch or an asshole... I see it as having the same meaning... if they call me a bitch I don't say 'couldn't you just call me an asshole? Why go the gender specific route you sexist *insert PC friendly insult here*'
I just don't get it... if I wanna insult someone I'm not gonna use a word that doesn't insult them
What pissed me off with people calling hillary a bitch, etc. is that people dont actually know her... I always find it weird when people insult celebs based on their public persona
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Come to think of it, by linking the word bitch (which I believe isn't considered sexist by the majority of people, which I think you'll agree with or this thread wouldn't exist) you are perpetuating sexism even more.
Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.
You are holding on to an archaic meaning, while its modern meaning doesn't have the same connotation (which is the case with nigger). Today, people consider it a equivalent of the word 'asshole' or any other insult, not specifically linked to sexism but to characteristics.
There's a Dutch (Flemish maybe?) word 'wijf' which has a very negative, maybe even sexist connotation. But historically the world was perfectly normal it simple meant 'wife' (Germanic roots obviously still visable). Its meaning shifted over time to a negative meaning. Does this mean it's ok to use that term because historically it just meant wijf (or even woman)?
No, the meaning is no longer the same and today it is offensive.
Why insist on linking the word bitch to sexism when clearly the majority of people do not see this link. They will use 'bitch' regardless of what you believe it means or which weight you think it carries. Why not accept bitch as an insult for women that is not linked to sexism. (whether one should insult people is a different discussion)
Come to think of it, by linking the word bitch (which I believe isn't considered sexist by the majority of people, which I think you'll agree with or this thread wouldn't exist) you are perpetuating sexism even more.
Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.
You are holding on to an archaic meaning, while its modern meaning doesn't have the same connotation (which is the case with nigger). Today, people consider it a equivalent of the word 'asshole' or any other insult, not specifically linked to sexism but to characteristics.
There's a Dutch (Flemish maybe?) word 'wijf' which has a very negative, maybe even sexist connotation. But historically the world was perfectly normal it simple meant 'wife' (Germanic roots obviously still visable). Its meaning shifted over time to a negative meaning. Does this mean it's ok to use that term because historically it just meant wijf (or even woman)?
No, the meaning is no longer the same and today it is offensive.
Why insist on linking the word bitch to sexism when clearly the majority of people do not see this link. They will use 'bitch' regardless of what you believe it means or which weight you think it carries. Why not accept bitch as an insult for women that is not linked to sexism. (whether one should insult people is a different discussion)
Just a thought.
that is a very thoughtful post, but it still seems to me that you are saying that becuase bitch does not carry the same meaning as before does not neccessary mean that it is not sexist, it could go back to my original questions of is sexism more toleranted that rasism. maybe bitch does not have teh same meaning because we don't realize that bitch is a sexist word.
you asked me a questiosn before about my definition of bitch and sexism so i will answer that. i believe that sexism that the belief that one sex is better that another gender. would you agree on that?
also Bitch is also commonly use for what animal? a dog. so if you agree that sexism is the beliefe that one gender is better that another would you not consider calling a women a dog i.e. bitch is believing that teh other render is saying that they are better?
finally, if you look at teh history of women, you can see many similarities between black people and women. i am not saying that they are same history but you will notice major themes.
also i am so sorry for the spelling mistakes.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.
My professor is a female. She is a female jerk, asshole, dick, rude person. She has female characteristics + she is rude, arrogant, unpleasant etc.
I'd say the definition of bitch fits.
But that's ridiculous. So you cannot 'insult' a woman with a female word? She is FEMALE it is logical to use a word that refers back to her gender.
I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.
It's a bad analogy because the connotation. If you think bitch has the same connotation as nigger, you are mistaken. Simple as that.
Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.
Bitch has the same connotation, huh?
Please give me your definition of bitch.
By calling this arrogant, rude, unpleasant, offensive, insulting woman a bitch I am insulting women in general?
Give me a gender-neutral word, by the way, that has the same connotation as asshole.
I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).
I can't give you a reply until you give me a full definition of the word bitch. Not a vague definition like "the historical meaning of bitch is sexist".
I can easily prove the word nigger is racist. Show me how the word bitch is sexist like the word nigger is racist.
And please, I reinforce sexism because I call an extremely unpleasant, rude, mean, selfish dragon a bitch? It's funny how every girl I know (and there are a lot more girls than guys at my school) agrees that she's a bitch, not one of them, not one has ever said: hey, you're reinforcing sexism, you should use a gender-neutral word.
So right now, to me, the majority of women does not think bitch is a sexist word. So you'll need something to back up your claim.
See, again sexism No, bitch is not considered sexist by the female gender. The majority of women I know do not consider bitch a sexist word. So perhaps you should change your statement to: "until it is perceived by the male and female gender, it will alaways be a problem.
Also, I explained already. Nigger refers to race and solely to race. Bitch on the other hand refers to unfavourable qualities in a female person.
Sure, I could name each quality separately and add woman at the end i.e. she's a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean woman. Just like I could say that a man is a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean man. However, I'd say he's an asshole. It sums up the whole list. Similarly, bitch sums up the whole list but it is a female word (remember, we are talking about a female). So, she has the negative qualities (which are negative in any person) and she is female. I don't add an extra gender-linked insult, she just happens to be female and bitch just happens to be a female word.
Perhaps I should ask my professor's opinion, the bitch is an English professor
you put a story abotu how black people were treated so i will post stories from teh past and present abotu women.
Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.
But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the word bitch DOES refer to women in general whether you like it or not and your intention is irrelevant. Using this word to refer to an individual woman is an insult to all women.
I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.
That’s not what I said. I said people who find disrespect of women less significant are likely to see it as a bad analogy. That’s absolutely not the same thing as saying that people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant. It’s like how saying “all mothers are women” does not in any way mean “all women are mothers.”
Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.
A. I haven’t claimed that the weight of the words are the same, only that they’re the same kind of words.
B. Are you saying that if women were treated worse, then these words would be analogous?
I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).
Oh, please. :rolleyes: I wasn’t expressing personal doubt and you know it.
I am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.
See, again sexism No, bitch is not considered sexist by the female gender. The majority of women I know do not consider bitch a sexist word. So perhaps you should change your statement to: "until it is perceived by the male and female gender, it will alaways be a problem.
A. You are quoting someone else. I never said bitch is perceived as sexist by the female gender.
B. Just because women (or at least the women you know) don’t consider something sexist doesn’t mean it’s not sexist.
C. I agree that it will be a problem until it is perceived as sexist by the male and female genders. I was just adding on to what the other poster said.
Out of curiousity, are there any words/insults that you DO consider to be sexist?
Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.
It's short-sighted to try to understand a word outside its historical context. Perhaps word meanings shift, but this happens over hundreds of years. Just because you, your friends, and the media want to disregard the sexist roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
The majority of people have only recently come to see nigger as a racist word. Was it not a racist word 100 years ago?
that is a very thoughtful post, but it still seems to me that you are saying that becuase bitch does not carry the same meaning as before does not neccessary mean that it is not sexist, it could go back to my original questions of is sexism more toleranted that rasism.
To me it seems the connotation of bitch is one of characteristics, not of gender. I believe the majority of the people think this as well.
I think that the notion that the word bitch has a sexist connotation is a minority view. Just as the belief that the Dutch word 'wijf' is acceptable because it was historically a normal word is also a minority view.
Your question is based on the presumption that bitch is a sexist word. I say it isn't, I say it's not a sexist insult, that it has lost its sexist connotation - and I believe the majority of the people feel this way as well.
If you tell the people who say that bitch is not a sexist word that it really is one, then you are adding the sexist connotation. They see it as non-sexist, only insulting based on characteristics. In this catagory there exist many words for both males and females, you even said it was specifically the word "bitch", and other insults were "ok" i.e. not sexist, but "angry words".
maybe bitch does not have teh same meaning because we don't realize that bitch is a sexist word.
Maybe we don't realize it's a sexist word because it just isn't (anymore). Why go and add a sexist meaning to a word? The meaning has shifted. From 'sexist' to 'rude, arrogant, mean, selfish...'
I think the semantic meaning of the word nigger has not shifted.
So I think it's not a good idea to judge whether sexism is more tolerated than racism by looking at the usage of the words 'bitch' and 'nigger'. I think bitch is not linked to sexism by the majority, but nigger is.
you asked me a questiosn before about my definition of bitch and sexism so i will answer that. i believe that sexism that the belief that one sex is better that another gender. would you agree on that?
Yes.
also Bitch is also commonly use for what animal? a dog. so if you agree that sexism is the beliefe that one gender is better that another would you not consider calling a women a dog i.e. bitch is believing that teh other render is saying that they are better?
No I would not. If that were true, any insult is sexist, male or female. That's the definition of an insult, calling something negative, a negative name that does not apply to you. That means you think you are more 'positive' or better than the other person. People insult men and women equally, I think.
If you want to debate whether or not it is ever right to insult a woman, or anyone for that matter, it's a different debate, not one of sexism.
finally, if you look at teh history of women, you can see many similarities between black people and women. i am not saying that they are same history but you will notice major themes.
Persecution? I'm sorry I don't. Unfair treatment, yes, but not in the same degree. Major themes of treatment of black people in the US include rape, separating families, little children being sold, being regarded as less than human, not even recognized in front of law, slavery, taken away every freedom, no free speech, no right to start a family, only mate to raise the value of a plantation through more labour force, or to sell the kids as slaves. During this period when white people considered black people less than human the word 'nigger' described their fucked up view of what a black person was.
Please tell me where this has been done to the entire female gender, and how bitch was used like the word nigger.
A. I haven’t claimed that the weight of the words are the same, only that they’re the same kind of words.
B. Are you saying that if women were treated worse, then these words would be analogous?
No, but if women were historically treated as black people the words would be on a more even level. They would not mean the same, however.
A. You are quoting someone else. I never said bitch is perceived as sexist by the female gender.
Well, sorry I thought because that was the part you bolded, you agreed with it. I didn't know you made that the focal point of that post to show you don't agree.
B. Just because women (or at least the women you know) don’t consider something sexist doesn’t mean it’s not sexist.
Just because you and people you know do consider it a sexist word, doesn't make it one.
Out of curiousity, are there any words/insults that you DO consider to be sexist?
Any word could be sexist, I think. If you use it to stress the notion that you believe one gender is less capable or not equal. If you, for instance, call a woman a slut because she slept with three guys on a night but you don't call a guy who slept with three girls a man whore or a word which carries the same meaning as slut, you are using that word in a sexist way.
It's short-sighted to try to understand a word outside its historical context. Perhaps word meanings shift, but this happens over hundreds of years. Just because you, your friends, and the media want to disregard the sexist roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
Ok, so the word 'wijf' in dutch isn't offensive. Just because you, your friends and the media want to disregard the good, normal roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
Yes, it does! A meaning is gone in the public mind, you are adding it.
Any word could be sexist, I think. If you use it to stress the notion that you believe one gender is less capable or not equal. If you, for instance, call a woman a slut because she slept with three guys on a night but you don't call a guy who slept with three girls a man whore or a word which carries the same meaning as slut, you are using that word in a sexist way.
This is where I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about a piori meaning and power. I'm not asking if you think words can be used in a sexist way. I'm asking whether there are any words which you believe are inherently sexist.
Ok, so the word 'wijf' in dutch isn't offensive. Just because you, your friends and the media want to disregard the good, normal roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
Yes, it does! A meaning is gone in the public mind, you are adding it.
Comments
Of course it's a gendered word. She's female. She's a real asshole, or a dick or a prick, doesn't work, imo.
Historical context? Bitch has no where near the same connotation as nigger.
Ok, for now on I will use words that refer to males when I want to call a arrogant, rude, annoying and unpleasant woman a name.
That doesn't make any sense. If a woman is aggressive, rude, offensive, insulting, unpleasant her actions and behaviour can be described by the word bitch. Please explain to me how that is sexism i.e. how that means I think that woman in less intelligent, less capable, less skilful... If a woman treats everyone around her like a piece of shit, I think it would be correct, semantically, to use the word bitch.
When you call a woman a bitch because she isn't submissive or talks back when you're being offensive in the first place, that would be sexism.
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So whenever someone insults a woman it is automatically sexism? That's bullshit.
Of course sexism is a problem.
Seems to me you all have a very broad (and wrong) definition of sexism. It seems that any criticism towards women is sexism according to you. It just isn't.
Please give me your definition of sexism and of the word bitch.
naděje umírá poslední
that's not what i said. i'm talking about the word bitch specifically.
i think this conversation (the whole thread that is) answers the question in the OP.
cross the river to the eastside
Please define it, and sexism as well.
I think you have a skewed view of what sexism is.
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You're exactly right, Collin. It isn't even close. In fact, it is a completely rdiculous comparison.
well you could say that the reason that you think that i sbecause sexism is more tolerated that racism. we believe that the N word is worse because we have come to the conclusion that what it means is bad while we have not come to the same conclusion with bitch, slut, tramp.
i don't know if that is right but it could be stated.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
YES.
cross the river to the eastside
the questions could be asked that does it matter if it is not about gender roles for you or does it matter if the person get insulted by the term?
and also i am not saying that you can't call people names but should you use terms that hav ebeen said to a certian population for a very long. you can call the person an asshole, idiot and rude. those are all names it just seems to me that we have gotten so used to using bitch, slut, tramp that we forget what names are.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
It could be stated, but i don't agree with the statement. i don't see "bitch" as a sexist term. No more than calling a man a a**hole. The Nword is entirely different. The historical connotations and ramifications of that word are HUGE.
There is a huge difference between the two.
Nigger was historically used to describe black people, but black people were not considered 'human', they were considered savage beasts, in fact, they were considered less than beasts because you could use a dead animal for food, and you could use their hides. A black person was a beast, a mule, that could only be used for labour and profits. If they couldn't be used for work or couldn't be sold, they were killed in the most brutal way. Even when they worked or were sold they were abuse in the most horrific ways.
Slut, tramp and bitch, although all offensive, do not have this connotation. They have a negative connotation. The difference is, if a woman behaves according to that connotation, according to the definition of these words she could be labeled as such. Is it rude and offensive? Certainly. Is it sexist? No. However it does become sexist if one holds a different standard for men, which is often the case. A woman who has casual sex is referred to as a slut or a whore, a man who behaves in such as way is called "the man" and is applauded by his friends, and not judged by society in general.
These words can no doubt be sexist, but aren't necessarily sexist, imo.
The word nigger is always racist. When you refer to black people as niggers you are basically equating them to dumb savage beasts, less than human. I don't think any human deserves a title so negative, so low and so disrespectful. It is solely based on race and prejudice.
However, slut is not. It is based on behaviour and so women might still behave in a slutty way. Again, if one doesn't use the same or an equal label for men behaving in the same way it would be sexism.
Also, the n word is worse because the connotation is worse. Not because society tells us so.
naděje umírá poslední
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because to me bitch isn't a sexist word per se.
edit: could you or VictoryGin please give me your definition of sexism and of the word bitch?
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Until it is perceived as sexist by the male gender as well, it will always be a problem.
Thankfully, there are some men who already understand this.
**And now - I'd like to take this opportunity to say thank you to those men!**
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
black vs light skin black
freckled vs tanned
blondes vs brunettes
tall vs short
this religion vs that religion
poor vs rich
this nationality vs that nationality
hotties vs uggo's
freaks vs geeks (ok, now I'm getting carried away)
how about HUMAN first? no vs....
Is it so surprising the things that we tolerate and how easily we discriminate again?
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
It's not a gendered word because of the person to whom it's applied. (It would still be a gendered word if applied to a man.) It's a gendered word because of the group of people to whom it refers back.
The word bitch, by definition and in historical usage, is inextricably linked with the characteristic of being female. So when you use it as a synonym for asshole or whatever, you automatically add an extra, gendered layer of insult. And if you called someone a black bitch, that would add an additional layer of meaning/insult, and so on.
The analogy comes from the fact that they are both words which were/are meant to subjugate a specific category of people.
But I can see how it would be viewed as a bad analogy by those people/societies which find the disrespect of women to be less significant than the disrespect of black people. (No, that was not meant as a personal insult.)
Why don't you just choose a word that's gender-neutral, that doesn't go that extra mile to insult women particularly?
Words have meaning and power regardless of your intentions. This word is has an extra layer of meaning in that it references this specific gender (as a category).
That which is demeaning to women (as a category) (or any gender, one might argue) is sexist. Because the word bitch links a specific (and historically powerless) gender to a negative connotation, it is demeaning to that gender as a whole. Therefore, it is sexist.
No one ever said that you personally think women are less intelligent, capable, or skillfull. You have now shifted the topic from how to identify/define a sexist word to how to identify/define a sexist individual. That's perhaps a whole other issue.
Given that the word is sexist and words have power, there's no doubt that your use of the word reinforces sexism. But whether or not that necessarily makes you sexist is quite debatable. (I'd probably say it doesn't.) And your personal beliefs about women are known to no one but yourself.
Some guys have already started going through that paperwork.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-20-names-marriage_N.htm
My husband and I are considering changing our surnames to something we can agree on. Although, since we work for the same employer, sometimes it's nice having different last names. :rolleyes:
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Anyone word that refers back to women and is insulting to women is sexist? I disagree. When I say that specific woman is a bitch, I'm not referring to women in general.
My professor is a female. She is a female jerk, asshole, dick, rude person. She has female characteristics + she is rude, arrogant, unpleasant etc.
I'd say the definition of bitch fits.
But that's ridiculous. So you cannot 'insult' a woman with a female word? She is FEMALE it is logical to use a word that refers back to her gender.
I see it as a bad analogy and you claim people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant than disrespect of black people. I take it as a personal insult anyway.
It's a bad analogy because the connotation. If you think bitch has the same connotation as nigger, you are mistaken. Simple as that.
Does bitch have a negative connotation? Yes. But please, look up how people treat(ed) black people historically. Claiming that the weight of the connotation of bitch and nigger is the same is just ignorant, imo.
Bitch has the same connotation, huh?
Please give me your definition of bitch.
By calling this arrogant, rude, unpleasant, offensive, insulting woman a bitch I am insulting women in general?
Give me a gender-neutral word, by the way, that has the same connotation as asshole.
I can call you sexist right now. "Or any gender, one might argue"? One wouldn't argue, one would naturally say this is so, by expressing doubt or uncertainty you are being a sexist (or definitely reinforcing sexism).
I can't give you a reply until you give me a full definition of the word bitch. Not a vague definition like "the historical meaning of bitch is sexist".
I can easily prove the word nigger is racist. Show me how the word bitch is sexist like the word nigger is racist.
And please, I reinforce sexism because I call an extremely unpleasant, rude, mean, selfish dragon a bitch? It's funny how every girl I know (and there are a lot more girls than guys at my school) agrees that she's a bitch, not one of them, not one has ever said: hey, you're reinforcing sexism, you should use a gender-neutral word.
So right now, to me, the majority of women does not think bitch is a sexist word. So you'll need something to back up your claim.
See, again sexism
Also, I explained already. Nigger refers to race and solely to race. Bitch on the other hand refers to unfavourable qualities in a female person.
Sure, I could name each quality separately and add woman at the end i.e. she's a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean woman. Just like I could say that a man is a rude, arrogant, selfish, offensive, annoying, mean man. However, I'd say he's an asshole. It sums up the whole list. Similarly, bitch sums up the whole list but it is a female word (remember, we are talking about a female). So, she has the negative qualities (which are negative in any person) and she is female. I don't add an extra gender-linked insult, she just happens to be female and bitch just happens to be a female word.
Perhaps I should ask my professor's opinion, the bitch is an English professor
naděje umírá poslední
I just don't get it... if I wanna insult someone I'm not gonna use a word that doesn't insult them
What pissed me off with people calling hillary a bitch, etc. is that people dont actually know her... I always find it weird when people insult celebs based on their public persona
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Maybe bitch was historically sexist. But word meanings shift. If the majority of the people don't see bitch as a sexist word that means its meaning has shifted. Obviously the majority of people think nigger is racist, its meaning has not shifted.
You are holding on to an archaic meaning, while its modern meaning doesn't have the same connotation (which is the case with nigger). Today, people consider it a equivalent of the word 'asshole' or any other insult, not specifically linked to sexism but to characteristics.
There's a Dutch (Flemish maybe?) word 'wijf' which has a very negative, maybe even sexist connotation. But historically the world was perfectly normal it simple meant 'wife' (Germanic roots obviously still visable). Its meaning shifted over time to a negative meaning. Does this mean it's ok to use that term because historically it just meant wijf (or even woman)?
No, the meaning is no longer the same and today it is offensive.
Why insist on linking the word bitch to sexism when clearly the majority of people do not see this link. They will use 'bitch' regardless of what you believe it means or which weight you think it carries. Why not accept bitch as an insult for women that is not linked to sexism. (whether one should insult people is a different discussion)
Just a thought.
naděje umírá poslední
that is a very thoughtful post, but it still seems to me that you are saying that becuase bitch does not carry the same meaning as before does not neccessary mean that it is not sexist, it could go back to my original questions of is sexism more toleranted that rasism. maybe bitch does not have teh same meaning because we don't realize that bitch is a sexist word.
you asked me a questiosn before about my definition of bitch and sexism so i will answer that. i believe that sexism that the belief that one sex is better that another gender. would you agree on that?
also Bitch is also commonly use for what animal? a dog. so if you agree that sexism is the beliefe that one gender is better that another would you not consider calling a women a dog i.e. bitch is believing that teh other render is saying that they are better?
finally, if you look at teh history of women, you can see many similarities between black people and women. i am not saying that they are same history but you will notice major themes.
also i am so sorry for the spelling mistakes.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
you put a story abotu how black people were treated so i will post stories from teh past and present abotu women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
http://bible-wonderings.blogspot.com/2006/01/women-and-slaves-in-genesis.html
http://vodpod.com/watch/39178-japans-comfort-women-slaves-forced-to-provide-sex-during-world-war-ii
http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/svaw_overview.php
i don't do this to downplay what black people went through and i hope that no-one believe that this is my intention.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
That’s not what I said. I said people who find disrespect of women less significant are likely to see it as a bad analogy. That’s absolutely not the same thing as saying that people who see it as a bad analogy find disrespect of women less significant. It’s like how saying “all mothers are women” does not in any way mean “all women are mothers.”
A. I haven’t claimed that the weight of the words are the same, only that they’re the same kind of words.
B. Are you saying that if women were treated worse, then these words would be analogous?
The word bitch refers to the female of particular species, usually dogs. Bitch=female. So by saying bitch=bad, you’re saying female=bad.
Asshole. Fucker. Piece of shit. Dumbass.
Oh, please. :rolleyes: I wasn’t expressing personal doubt and you know it.
I am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.
A. You are quoting someone else. I never said bitch is perceived as sexist by the female gender.
B. Just because women (or at least the women you know) don’t consider something sexist doesn’t mean it’s not sexist.
C. I agree that it will be a problem until it is perceived as sexist by the male and female genders. I was just adding on to what the other poster said.
Out of curiousity, are there any words/insults that you DO consider to be sexist?
It's short-sighted to try to understand a word outside its historical context. Perhaps word meanings shift, but this happens over hundreds of years. Just because you, your friends, and the media want to disregard the sexist roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
The majority of people have only recently come to see nigger as a racist word. Was it not a racist word 100 years ago?
Thank you!
And let's not forget female genital mutilation and femicide, both still quite common today. :(
To me it seems the connotation of bitch is one of characteristics, not of gender. I believe the majority of the people think this as well.
I think that the notion that the word bitch has a sexist connotation is a minority view. Just as the belief that the Dutch word 'wijf' is acceptable because it was historically a normal word is also a minority view.
Your question is based on the presumption that bitch is a sexist word. I say it isn't, I say it's not a sexist insult, that it has lost its sexist connotation - and I believe the majority of the people feel this way as well.
If you tell the people who say that bitch is not a sexist word that it really is one, then you are adding the sexist connotation. They see it as non-sexist, only insulting based on characteristics. In this catagory there exist many words for both males and females, you even said it was specifically the word "bitch", and other insults were "ok" i.e. not sexist, but "angry words".
Maybe we don't realize it's a sexist word because it just isn't (anymore). Why go and add a sexist meaning to a word? The meaning has shifted. From 'sexist' to 'rude, arrogant, mean, selfish...'
I think the semantic meaning of the word nigger has not shifted.
So I think it's not a good idea to judge whether sexism is more tolerated than racism by looking at the usage of the words 'bitch' and 'nigger'. I think bitch is not linked to sexism by the majority, but nigger is.
Yes.
No I would not. If that were true, any insult is sexist, male or female. That's the definition of an insult, calling something negative, a negative name that does not apply to you. That means you think you are more 'positive' or better than the other person. People insult men and women equally, I think.
If you want to debate whether or not it is ever right to insult a woman, or anyone for that matter, it's a different debate, not one of sexism.
Persecution? I'm sorry I don't. Unfair treatment, yes, but not in the same degree. Major themes of treatment of black people in the US include rape, separating families, little children being sold, being regarded as less than human, not even recognized in front of law, slavery, taken away every freedom, no free speech, no right to start a family, only mate to raise the value of a plantation through more labour force, or to sell the kids as slaves. During this period when white people considered black people less than human the word 'nigger' described their fucked up view of what a black person was.
Please tell me where this has been done to the entire female gender, and how bitch was used like the word nigger.
naděje umírá poslední
No, but if women were historically treated as black people the words would be on a more even level. They would not mean the same, however.
Well, sorry I thought because that was the part you bolded, you agreed with it. I didn't know you made that the focal point of that post to show you don't agree.
Just because you and people you know do consider it a sexist word, doesn't make it one.
Any word could be sexist, I think. If you use it to stress the notion that you believe one gender is less capable or not equal. If you, for instance, call a woman a slut because she slept with three guys on a night but you don't call a guy who slept with three girls a man whore or a word which carries the same meaning as slut, you are using that word in a sexist way.
naděje umírá poslední
Ok, so the word 'wijf' in dutch isn't offensive. Just because you, your friends and the media want to disregard the good, normal roots of the word doesn't make it any less sexist.
Yes, it does! A meaning is gone in the public mind, you are adding it.
naděje umírá poslední
This is where I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about a piori meaning and power. I'm not asking if you think words can be used in a sexist way. I'm asking whether there are any words which you believe are inherently sexist.
I can't comment about words I don't know.