is sexism more tolerated that racism?

VictoryGin

reborncareerist wrote:

As much as I am not all that fond of Hillary herself, I was quite pumped by the possibility of a female president of the U.S. (no sexual connotation meant ...

i think many people were---especially women who fought so hard in the 50s, 60s, and 70s for certain rights. i just hope this wasn't it. maybe in 8 years, or 4 years, who knows. we need to work harder to make it easier for more women to get into local, senate, or house positions and grow a nice base from which women can grow into leadership positions. it's happening slowly, but could you imagine a congress that is actually somewhat representative of the people?

Urban Hiker

Pacomc79 wrote:

With this all being said I still recognise that there are laws in place that are draconian and prohibitive as VG has already stated. Hell, as I stand on the footsteps of marriage, I realize how lucky I am to not have to go through the ridiculousness to change my name. She will have to spend a full day of work without pay going through the various governmental hoops to change her name to add mine to fulfill this cultural norm.... to basically file taxes toegther and make us family in the eyes of government. Hell you can't even get that if you're homosexual. There's a long way to go certainly.

I like a lot of what you wrote Pacomc79. But, I wanted to respond to the quoted text.

She doesn't have to change her name. She and you could still file taxes together without the same last name, so it's really just fulfilling the cultural norm. I don't have my husband's last name, but we are still recognized by the government as a married couple.

LONGRD

Collin wrote:

"De nigger woman is de mule ah de world"

Zora Neal Hurston

was that from Their eyes Were Watching God?

Great book!

Collin

LongRd. wrote:

was that from Their eyes Were Watching God?

Great book!

Yes, and yes, it is a great book.

Collin

VictoryGin wrote:

but that's exactly the problem. bitch, throughout history, has described a woman who doesn't follow traditional gender stereotypes. she is someone who can be aggressive, which women traditionally aren't supposed to be. bitch is a female dog, and when you call a woman a bitch, it is because she, like that dog, can sometimes bite back. this is a gendered term meant to disparage women. think about when a man is called a bitch these days---it is because he is being "womanly" in the way that he is submissive. the word "bitch" has definite gender attachments, it's offensive to women whether in the form of calling them out for being unlike their gender (being too aggressive) or applying that label to a man (which is an insult to him because he is acting like a woman).

Sexism implies that one thinks women (other the other gender) are less able, less intelligent, less skilful...

There's a professor at my school and no doubt she's intelligent, no one would deny that, she's also a very good lecturer but she's extremely unpleasant, she's rude to everyone, she arrogant... She's a bitch. There's nothing sexist about it. It doesn't have anything to do with her gender. You can say I call her a bitch because she's not following the traditional gender roles, but that's ridiculous. Not following traditional gender stereotypes doesn't mean being rude, aggressive, offensive, insulting people... A man with the same personality will also be called an asshole. It's not about gender, it's about their extremely unpleasant character.

I agree it can be sexist at times, though, not every time. I don't think you can say the same about the word nigger. It only has one connotation. It is always racist. When you use that word, it's not linked to character but to race.

TrixieCat

polaris wrote:

so ... are those words not appropriate to be used at ANY time or just in refering to women?

those words can now refer to the male gender as well

Sure they can, but are they?
That is what we are talking about.

westsidepie

Collin wrote:

Sexism implies that one thinks women (other the other gender) are less able, less intelligent, less skilful...

There's a professor at my school and no doubt she's intelligent, no one would deny that, she's also a very good lecturer but she's extremely unpleasant, she's rude to everyone, she arrogant... She's a bitch. There's nothing sexist about it. It doesn't have anything to do with her gender. You can say I call her a bitch because she's not following the traditional gender roles, but that's ridiculous. Not following traditional gender stereotypes doesn't mean being rude, aggressive, offensive, insulting people... A man with the same personality will also be called an asshole. It's not about gender, it's about their extremely unpleasant character.

I agree it can be sexist at times, though, not every time. I don't think you can say the same about the word nigger. It only has one connotation. It is always racist. When you use that word, it's not linked to character but to race.

Wouldn't you call a man with the same behavior a prick or a dick? That is what I call them, especially when I want to emphasize it is a man exhibiting the behavior. And, in using prick or dick, I am implying that I believe this man is inferior to other men. I think bitch can be used in the same way with the added twist that the bitch in question is inferior to both men and other women who are more compliant. To avoid the whole gender problem, I use asshole for a person exhibiting the behavior. Everyone has an asshole, and they can be a source of annoyance to both genders.

Thecure

Collin wrote:

Sexism implies that one thinks women (other the other gender) are less able, less intelligent, less skilful...

There's a professor at my school and no doubt she's intelligent, no one would deny that, she's also a very good lecturer but she's extremely unpleasant, she's rude to everyone, she arrogant... She's a bitch. There's nothing sexist about it. It doesn't have anything to do with her gender. You can say I call her a bitch because she's not following the traditional gender roles, but that's ridiculous. Not following traditional gender stereotypes doesn't mean being rude, aggressive, offensive, insulting people... A man with the same personality will also be called an asshole. It's not about gender, it's about their extremely unpleasant character.

I agree it can be sexist at times, though, not every time. I don't think you can say the same about the word nigger. It only has one connotation. It is always racist. When you use that word, it's not linked to character but to race.

instead of using the word bitch why can't you just say that she is unpleasent, rude and arrogant. i don't agree with you that it is not about traditional gender roles. also about the N word i just remember a famous joke by chris rock who talked about black people and niggers. he stated that these are 2 types of people. i tend to agree with him.

LONGRD

I find hard to swallow that certain racial slurs are more valued than others. One can defend a word as racism and yet thinks another slur is a lighter offend.

If all men are create equal, surely we're not treated equally. hehe, but that's another discussion.

Oh yes, agreed with the OP, sexism is more tolerated than racism.

LONGRD

Thecure wrote:

instead of using the word bitch why can't you just say that she is unpleasent, rude and arrogant. i don't agree with you that it is not about traditional gender roles. also about the N word i just remember a famous joke by chris rock who talked about black people and niggers. he stated that these are 2 types of people. i tend to agree with him.

Tell us all how you really feel, Kramer.

Thecure

westsidepie wrote:

Wouldn't you call a man with the same behavior a prick or a dick? That is what I call them, especially when I want to emphasize it is a man exhibiting the behavior. And, in using prick or dick, I am implying that I believe this man is inferior to other men. I think bitch can be used in the same way with the added twist that the bitch in question is inferior to both men and other women who are more compliant. To avoid the whole gender problem, I use asshole for a person exhibiting the behavior. Everyone has an asshole, and they can be a source of annoyance to both genders.

you make a very good point, so maybe a new questiosn that has to be asked is does calling a man a prick or a dick have the same meaning as calling a women a slut, bitch or tramp?

Thecure

LongRd. wrote:

Tell us all how you really feel, Kramer.

oh that was low.

Pacomc79

Urban Hiker wrote:

I like a lot of what you wrote Pacomc79. But, I wanted to respond to the quoted text.

She doesn't have to change her name. She and you could still file taxes together without the same last name, so it's really just fulfilling the cultural norm. I don't have my husband's last name, but we are still recognized by the government as a married couple.

yes, indeed, she's actually just adding my name on the end, so now she has four. It is her choice to do it or not I guess, still I do not envy the whole changing of the name on every government document.

_

Collin wrote:

Sexism implies that one thinks women (other the other gender) are less able, less intelligent, less skilful...

There's a professor at my school and no doubt she's intelligent, no one would deny that, she's also a very good lecturer but she's extremely unpleasant, she's rude to everyone, she arrogant... She's a bitch. There's nothing sexist about it. It doesn't have anything to do with her gender. You can say I call her a bitch because she's not following the traditional gender roles, but that's ridiculous. Not following traditional gender stereotypes doesn't mean being rude, aggressive, offensive, insulting people... A man with the same personality will also be called an asshole. It's not about gender, it's about their extremely unpleasant character.

I agree it can be sexist at times, though, not every time. I don't think you can say the same about the word nigger. It only has one connotation. It is always racist. When you use that word, it's not linked to character but to race.

But the word itself is a gendered word, regardless of whether you intend it to be that way. Just as with the word "nigger," you can't separate it from its historical context. You can't call a white woman a "nigger" and expect that to be more acceptable just because you mean it in a different context than it was originally intended. So regardless of whether someone is rude, aggressive, offensive, or insulting, if you take a word that ultimately refers back to women and use it as an insult, that's sexist.

VictoryGin

Collin wrote:

Sexism implies that one thinks women (other the other gender) are less able, less intelligent, less skilful...

There's a professor at my school and no doubt she's intelligent, no one would deny that, she's also a very good lecturer but she's extremely unpleasant, she's rude to everyone, she arrogant... She's a bitch. There's nothing sexist about it. It doesn't have anything to do with her gender. You can say I call her a bitch because she's not following the traditional gender roles, but that's ridiculous. Not following traditional gender stereotypes doesn't mean being rude, aggressive, offensive, insulting people... A man with the same personality will also be called an asshole. It's not about gender, it's about their extremely unpleasant character.

I agree it can be sexist at times, though, not every time. I don't think you can say the same about the word nigger. It only has one connotation. It is always racist. When you use that word, it's not linked to character but to race.

why don't you call her rude then? or extremely unpleasant? the word bitch historically is gendered and offensive to women regardless to whom it is applied. if it wasn't, and if sexism wasn't a problem, we wouldn't still be having these conversations.

edit: this seems to be a repeat of sorts. sorry!

VictoryGin

Thecure wrote:

you make a very good point, so maybe a new questiosn that has to be asked is does calling a man a prick or a dick have the same meaning as calling a women a slut, bitch or tramp?

i'd say it doesn't have the same power when using it in regards to the dominant gender. they'll always have more power as long as they're the dominant gender and these words won't have the same meaning or effect. men aren't being oppressed with/by the word prick. words with negative connotations used on a marginalized or oppressed culture, gender, ethnicity, will be different (like bitch, cunt, nigger, wetback, etc.)

Thecure

VictoryGin wrote:

i'd say it doesn't have the same power when using it in regards to the dominant gender. they'll always have more power as long as they're the dominant gender and these words won't have the same meaning or effect. men aren't being oppressed with/by the word prick. words with negative connotations used on a marginalized or oppressed culture, gender, ethnicity, will be different (like bitch, cunt, nigger, wetback, etc.)

i could not write a better response myself. Good work!

polaris

TrixieCat wrote:

Sure they can, but are they?
That is what we are talking about.

well ... the only time those words get used by me is in conversation with male friends about them ... i will use almost any word in reference to them and they back at me ...

i guess what it boils down to is that if by my usage of these words someone is perceived as sexist by the female gender - i need to be more aware of it but i've never heard of it like that ...

imo - being called a bitch or asshole is the exact same thing

Collin

westsidepie wrote:

Wouldn't you call a man with the same behavior a prick or a dick?

Asshole, dick, jerk, prick, shithead... whatever. It's an insult. Not a gender thing.

Collin

Thecure wrote:

instead of using the word bitch why can't you just say that she is unpleasent, rude and arrogant. i don't agree with you that it is not about traditional gender roles.

Sure, I can say she is rude, unpleasant and arrogant and sometimes I do. Are you seriously saying a person can never call someone a name? That's ridiculous.

It's not about gender roles, maybe it is with you not with me.