is sexism more tolerated that racism?

Collin

Thecure wrote:

why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.

My answer to this is that these words do not carry the same semantic weight as the word nigger, thus there is a difference in perception of these words. I think these words are not linked to sexism like 'nigger' is linked to racism.

My argument is this:

The word 'nigger' has this historic connotation, which we all know and we can easily tell where and when it got it's extremely negative connotation. This word was used to describe a whole race. The link is clearly there.

I don't think there has been a historic situation in which 'slut', 'bitch' or 'tramp' was used in the same way to describe the whole female gender . The link between sexism and these words is not there as it is between 'nigger' and racism.

I asked you to give me an example. You cited many examples of violence against women, some sexist, some not. But not any of these actions was historically linked to the word 'bitch', 'slut' or 'tramp'.

_

In response to the original question: Yes, I do think sexism is more tolerated than racism. As a society, we haven't even gotten so far as to be able/willing to recognize it - just as was the case with racism many years ago. My only solace is in seeing how much progress has been made with racism and hoping that someday we'll make the same progress on this front. Conversations like these just remind me of my despair that it won't happen in my lifetime.

Oh well. I'm off to have a good weekend. Hope everyone else does the same.

Collin

scb wrote:

In response to the original question: Yes, I do think sexism is more tolerated than racism. As a society, we haven't even gotten so far as to be able/willing to recognize it - just as was the case with racism many years ago. My only solace is in seeing how much progress has been made with racism and hoping that someday we'll make the same progress on this front. Conversations like these just remind me of my despair that it won't happen in my lifetime.

Oh well. I'm off to have a good weekend. Hope everyone else does the same.

Do you base this on the notion that the word bitch is more accepted than the word nigger?

Have a nice weekend.

Collin

I'm sorry that I keep bringing this up but I feel like I'm being targeted here as a sexist because I don't feel that the usage of the words bitch and nigger are a good gauge for measuring racism and sexism in society.

I asked quite a few times to link the word bitch to specific acts of violence or hatred or discrimination against women like the word nigger is historically linked to racism and acts of violence against black people because of their race. You have not provided an example. You have provided many examples of violence and sexism, but you have not shown the link with the word bitch, which is what I ask for.

I feel this is important because of how your question is asked, you imply that the usage of bitch suggests that sexism is more tolerated than racism because it is less looked down upon by society than the usage of the word nigger.

My claim is that society doesn't see it as a sexist word because the sexist connotation isn't there and certainly not in the same way as the word nigger has a racist connotation, not even close.

Several of you described bitch as a demeaning term. This is correct, however, this doesn't necessarily mean it is sexist. The word 'asshole', which you seem to agree isn't sexist, is also a demeaning term. Any insult is. An insult is by definition demeaning and insulting, whether it is applied to men or women.

You pointed out that bitch refers to the female gender specifically. It does. This, I think, does not make it sexist either.

When a woman is obnoxious, rude, arrogant, selfish, mean, unpleasant one can call her an asshole and it is not sexist. You are using a word to describe her behaviour. Similarly you could use the word bitch. Bitch has an additional gender connotation, like you said, and we know because it originated from the meaning of 'female dog'. But you are still using a word to describe her behaviour. By using a female word you are merely acknowledging her gender. I don't believe there's anything wrong with seeing differences between men and women. I believe men are women are equal but they are certainly not the same. To go as far as saying that the acknowledgement of gender in an insult is sexist is absurd. We accept the difference in gender in ordinary speech constantly (waiter - waitress; the desciption is the same, the only difference in the words is gender) but when we acknowledge it in offensive speech (asshole - jerk - bitch; the description is the same, the only difference is gender) it somehow becomes sexist?

Also note that I have been talking about a horrendous woman, or utterance expressed in anger. If a man were to refer to all women with the word bitch and not just to the girl who cheated on him with his best friend and took all his cd's and his two pearl jam tickets or to the neighbour girl who poured rat poison in his dog's water, then I would definitely agree it is sexism. Although, I should add that it's not sexism because of the word, but because of his attitude towards women. If he used 'trash' to refer to all women, it would of course also be sexist, although trash itself is not a feminine word.

In the other cases I'd say it's an expression of anger, an insult, a description of behaviour not related to gender. Or only related to gender because the object of his anger is the actions or behaviour of a female person. The focus is on the actions or behaviour or characteristics, not gender.

You could ask if it's 'okay' to call a black person nigger in anger or call black thugs, niggers. Well, whether it's okay or not is not my call. I would hope, though, that one would see the difference between a person who called a black man 'nigger' once in a fit of anger because this man stole his money and someone who always refers to black people as niggers.
But I think I should add this one more time, although I have said it plenty of times before; the connotation of nigger is a heavier one, one that is historically and presently specifically linked to race and not behaviour.

Anyway, if you want to talk about whether sexism is more tolerated than racism I'd be happy to join you, however, I don't agree with the reason you based your claim on. You could have dug up official numbers, for instance. I'm not sure those numbers would prove your claim, though. I'm interested in this topic but I thought your initial claim was and is absurd.

If you want to talk about violence against women, again, I would definitely join you, however, when you claim all violence against women is sexist, I don't agree either.

And furthermore, somewhere in this thread someone wrote men cannot be the victim of sexism, I forgot who it was. I didn't respond to it at the time but I will now; that is a 'sexist' claim.
We all agree on the definiton of sexism; the belief that one gender is inferior. Regardless of power structures in modern society, one can always be the victim of sexism regardless of sex. It is foolish to believe otherwise.

That's all I have to say.

John Briggs 2008

I see to many social distortions and issues to even fathom a single answer to such a posed question. I have seen both issues weigh heavy on American society.

Specifics

Collin wrote:

EDIT:the whole long one from previous page

having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.

If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.

Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.

Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.

in_hiding79

Thecure wrote:

why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.

no shit......

in_hiding79

Collin wrote:

I love all bytchez and niggaz!

hehehehehehe

Specifics

....

_

Collin wrote:

.....

I don’t know why I’m allowing myself to be sucked back into this conversation, which is obviously going nowhere – especially when I’m trying to just enjoy my weekend. I guess I can’t help it because sexism is such an important topic to me.

I think your first statement is your most important one. You are arguing so vehemently because you are taking this personally and believe you are being targeted as a sexist. But, as I’ve said before, no one is calling you a sexist. This conversation is not about you. It’s about the power and meaning of words.

In my experience, defensiveness is a common response from men when being asked to consider a broader scope of sexism. That makes sense. They consider themselves to be good guys and don’t like the thought that something they may do might serve to marginalize the women they love.

But the reason I feel that sexism is more tolerated is because, in my opinion, there are many, many sexist aspects of society that go unrecognized – and are therefore upheld – not just by “bad” guys, but by “good” guys and women alike.

Once again, that does not mean to say that any individual is a sexist. That would imply that sexism defines who they are. There are few people in the world to whom I think that would apply. I am merely referring to behaviors and beliefs that I believe support our patriarchal way of life. And we are ALL guilty of them at some time or another – including myself.

You said we all agree that sexism is defined as the belief that one gender is inferior to the other – but I don’t agree to this. I think this is a very simplified, narrow definition. Sexism isn’t just about beliefs; it’s also about actions (and inactions). One doesn’t have to believe in something to propagate it. It’s also not specifically about inferiority per se. It’s also about disrespect, marginalization, subjugation, disempowerment, etc.

This is one reason I feel that the “competition” about whether black people or women were more mistreated is inappropriate. And it’s why I don’t think linking “bitch” to violence is relevant. I think you’re right that in the United States in the present time “bitch” doesn’t hold the same weight/connotation as “nigger” – meaning that people don’t see it as such a bad word. But I believe this was exactly the original poster’s point (correct me if I’m wrong, OP). You could say that since “bitch” doesn’t have the same weight it isn’t a sexist word and therefore the acceptance of its use doesn’t indicate a greater tolerance of sexism. But I would argue that it doesn’t have the same weight and isn’t seen as sexist because our society is so tolerant of sexism. (Nigger didn’t have such a bad connotation either until we began to recognize racism.)

You have said repeatedly that use of the word bitch is simply an acknowledgement of the target’s gender, as if it were the pronoun she. I say, when you use it as part of your insult it moves from being an acknowledgement of gender to a gender insult. For instance, when I moved to New Mexico I found that many of the non-white men here who want to insult a white woman can’t just call her a bitch, they call her a “white bitch”. Do you not see any racial slur there? To “acknowledge” one’s race in the context of an insult is to insult them not only on the basis of their behavior, but also on the basis of their race. And I think most people acknowledge that (because racism is less tolerated than sexism).

When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.

I know that my feminist views are somewhat radical for this society in this day and age. I don’t expect anyone to understand/agree. I’ve given the concept of sexism many years of serious thought in order to come to these conclusions, so I doubt there’s anything you can say to change my mind about it. I’m sure there’s nothing I can do to change yours either. (Although, out of curiosity, if all the women you loved – mother, sister, wife, daughter - were by some chance to come to you and say that they found the word bitch to be offensive to them as women, would you stop using it?) So why don’t we just agree to disagree?

Collin

Specifics wrote:

having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.

If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.

Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.

Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.

I disagree and I don't feel like repeating my arguments.

Collin

scb wrote:

It’s about the power and meaning of words...
This is one reason I feel that the “competition” about whether black people or women were more mistreated is inappropriate. And it’s why I don’t think linking “bitch” to violence is relevant.

If you use these two words (bitch and nigger) as a gauge to measure the acceptance of sexism and racism in society, I think these two words should have at least a similar weight, which I don't believe they have.

That's the whole point of this discussion - not whether sexism is more accepted - but whether these words have an equal weight. The words 'historically linked' were used quite a few times to suggest that bitch has a same history as the word nigger. I say this is not true, that's why I asked for the link - again because that's the basis of this argument and if the link isn't there you have no argument.

It's very relevant.

When you refer to the “someone” who wrote in this thread that men can’t be the victims of sexism, you’re referring to me. Only – I said this already but I’ll say it again – I did not say that men can’t be the victims of sexism. I simply acknowledged the existence of a theory which says that oppression=prejudice+power. Please stop misquoting me.

scb wrote:

am merely acknowledging the theory that sexism=prejudice+power and therefore men are incapable of being the victims of sexism.

(Although, out of curiosity, if all the women you loved – mother, sister, wife, daughter - were by some chance to come to you and say that they found the word bitch to be offensive to them as women, would you stop using it?)

They don't.

I think by giving the word bitch as sexist connotation that isn't there, you are the one who is perpetuating sexism.

Collin

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Eleanor Roosevelt


I feel this is especially through when you're talking about offensive words whether it be nigger or bitch or cunt.

And this is what this thread is about; words. Even more, I'd say it's about a word that currently doesn't have a sexist connotation and you are trying to give it one and thereby perpetuating sexism even further, imo.

If it were about actions, I'd probably agree with all of you (unless you believe all violence against women is sexism.)

angelica

Collin wrote:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Eleanor Roosevelt

I agree totally. And yet how I feel is independent of the use of sexist commentary.

The majority of any power-minority continue to carry the collective wounds of their group that have not yet been healed/resolved. Yes, many women are sensitive to the wounds womankind carry with her. And insensitive men continue to fuel that. The woman with the wound is responsible for carrying the wound; as the man who acts with disrespect is responsible for the ways he is disrespectful of others.

Edit: women use the "b" word all the time, too, from a place of lack, with consequences to bear for their actions.

angelica

Specifics wrote:

having read the thread i would say you're trying to use way too much intelligence to justify the unjustifiable, which whether you like it or not implies sinister motive.

If you call a woman a bitch, for at least that time you're feeling whatever you're feeling you have descended to a sexist level. If you call a woman an asshole you're being abusive to the person not the woman.

Likewise if you get pissed off with a black person and you call them a nigger, you've descended to racism, if you call them an asshole you're abusing the person not the colour.

Ie: fucking bitches vs fucking assholes.
or: fucking niggers vs fucking assholes.

I totally agree.

Words point to the energy beneath the surface. We are 100% responsible for how we choose to represent ourselves.

Rhinocerous Surprise

I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.

angelica

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.

Frankly, human beings operate from a place of lack all the time. There is no justification...ever. Just consequences for our actions. Always.

angelica

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I can see how women might take bitch a little more personally then men really intend. But if bitch is unacceptable, is bastard? That's gotta be equally disrespectful to a lot of men.

For the record..shouldn't "bastard" have a similar effect for "illegitimate children" rather than men, in general?

There are many of those loaded words. I speak at high schools with a program geared towards teens, regarding mental illness prevention and mental health. And we teach the kids how loaded and stigmatizing it is to use the word "crazy" as is so casually used in derogatory ways in today's society, and in ways that are so biting and insulting to those with mental health issues. These words are used wide-spread-like.

And I've sided with surferdude and Ahnimus before that sexism is alive and well as a ploy being used against men. It surprises me the degree that angry women (falsely) entitle themselves to use degrading commentary re: men, as if it levels the playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sexism is sexism, whether geared towards men or women. I focus on being a humanitarian rather than a feminist, due to the negative backlashes that exist in the name of feminism.

angelica

Rhino '08!! Worldwide!!! Spread the crabs!!

Oh. wait.

Rhinocerous Surprise

angelica wrote:

For the record..shouldn't "bastard" have a similar effect for "illegitimate children" rather than men, in general?

There are many of those loaded words. I speak at high schools with a program geared towards teens, regarding mental illness prevention and mental health. And we teach the kids how loaded and stigmatizing it is to use the word "crazy" as is so casually used in derogatory ways in today's society, and in ways that are so biting and insulting to those with mental health issues. These words are used wide-spread-like.

And I've sided with surferdude and Ahnimus before that sexism is alive and well as a ploy being used against men. It surprises me the degree that angry women (falsely) entitle themselves to use degrading commentary re: men, as if it levels the playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sexism is sexism, whether geared towards men or women. I focus on being a humanitarian rather than a feminist, due to the negative backlashes that exist in the name of feminism.

There are so many ways of taking words - bastard really means illegitimate child, but it's associated with men, just like bitch really means female dog, but is associated with women. We can't be too focused on making the words we use are offensive to no one, it's just not natural. The most we can do is make sure we don't intend to offend the people we talk to, and if we do offend, apologise.

And conversely, realise, that if someone says something that offends us in this way - ie. bitch being a very accepted, yet very sexist term - a lot of the time, it's probably unintentional.