We all live in a patriarchical society, where the illusion exists that women have equal power, which just is not true.
The position of the woman has in this thread been compared to the position of black people during slavery. Now you can tell me women don't have equal power and I will agree, but that comparison is insane.
We do need to shift to the humanitarian view. However, in order to truly do so without perpetuating imbalance, we need to embrace fully, both the male and female aspects within the humanitarian stance.
Well, I agree with this but that's not what the people in this thread have been arguing.
If you call women assholes, it's all good, because it's gender-neutral. (this seems to be the concensus here in this thread)
This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.
Ah, but here we go back to the same discussion i.e. is the word bitch sexist or not? To assume people are unconsciously perpetuating sexism by calling, for instance, a horrendous woman a bitch means you say 'bitch' has a fixed sexist connotation and there is no debate about it possible, that this is a universal truth so to speak.
And that is, I think, not the case and it thus becomes a humanitarian issue. Because right now, in society, insulting men is absolutely accepted, so this would mean, if you want equal treatment, that it would also be acceptable for women to be insulted - with a feminine word or a gender neutral word. It is perfectly accepted that men are insulted with masculine words as well.
Thus, if you want that to change, if you want offensive speech acts to change i.e. for both sexes, doesn't it become a humanitarian issue? And if you only want it for one gender and not the other isn't that sexism?
I don't necessarily feel we need to actively make certain words unacceptable. I tend to agree more with that quote I posted earlier.
If someone calls me an asshole I can react to it but by doing so I only show I am offended and give that word power. If I don't react and simply think to myself or just know, that person does not define me, I strip that word of its power.
So, instead of making words unacceptable I think we should teach respect and not let ourselves be reduced to something less because of another person's words.
If you are a man, I very much applaud you for your post that I quoted earlier, and agreed with!
At the same time... Collin pointed out one key issue...That you are making one view "right" (yours) and another view wrong (not yours)..... It's the win/lose, right/wrong mindset, where one view must trump another, that is key to the patriarchical mindset that has humans across the globe unable to move to the next level of human evolution. It's a linear and logical point of view that says two opposing ideas cannot exist at the same time and be equally valid.
Women's brains typically can process information much more effectively laterally, meaning they can hold all kinds of opposing views at once, without needing to "resolve" them. (women have much thicker connections between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, allowing them to more readily accept "what is". They then can multi-task. and jump from decision making to nurturing in short spans ... women and left-handed men...)
I do agree with you from earlier, however, that if someone...say Collin for example, wants to call a woman the b-word, and wants to justify it (I mean in reality, as opposed to in an intellectual exercise...and knowing Collin, he's probably one of the least sexist people I know, and with huge potential to be THE least over his lifespan), he (or she in other cases) does point to an underlying nefarious intent they are not conscious of. Such is the nature of the indicators we use that give us away. Using that word in terms of women is a great indictor of misogyny to me...in men and women. I see people using the term without realizing what it really points to. However, I also well-know many who are in the know...and who take those signs very seriously. It's by becoming conscious in such ways myself that I easily know who is where I am, and who is not. This is why there is an awake minority who walk around and can see through people, and can readily see where to move, and where not to. At one time, I denied my own awareness and justifyied the unjustifiable in others because I saw they "didn't know any better", and I therefore accepted and lived amongst people who justified abuse over and over. Of course, I also lived the consequences of getting in the line of that fire.
All over this board there exists a majority of people who are against degredation on one level, and then turn around and excuse and justify it in other situations. And then such individuals are completely oblivious to their own imbalance that they willfully enact. And yet, there are those who see beyond, and see right through what's happening, and who no longer enable it.
If i am a woman do i still get the applause?
I spend a lot of my life burning in a pit of my own making (or maybe forced by experience) trying to distinguish the difference between my own opinion/need to feel intelligent/need for power, and what is the "truth" burning through the bullshit. I'm not there yet but i have no intention of resting with it.
Today i have landed on quite a pleasant feeling of playfullness, which i am not scared to enjoy and long may it continue.
I think were you not such close friends with Collin you may not feel the need to have pulled me up for arguing a simple truth?..:)
we can discuss and happilly disagree on as many different possible meanings and connotations of the word bitch as you like, but the truth of it you explain quite well yourself.
Your friendship is obviously one worth having, personally i don't look too hard for friends, i find that people that do tend to look also for enemies, or at the very least will protect them unneccessarily..:)
Yes. The majority of women I know do not scratch the surface on this subject. Men tend to be less aware than that.
I spend a lot of my life burning in a pit of my own making (or maybe forced by experience) trying to distinguish the difference between my own opinion/need to feel intelligent/need for power, and what is the "truth" burning through the bullshit. I'm not there yet but i have no intention of resting with it.
Today i have landed on quite a pleasant feeling of playfullness, which i am not scared to enjoy and long may it continue.
cool.
I think were you not such close friends with Collin you may not feel the need to have pulled me up for arguing a simple truth?..:)
My friendship with Collin is independent of the truth. I called you out because you were providing an example of exactly what I referred to re: the patriarchical way that both men and women act out all day long, regardless of what we say we believe. This is what I believe is the crux of the issue.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Ah, but here we go back to the same discussion i.e. is the word bitch sexist or not? To assume people are unconsciously perpetuating sexism by calling, for instance, a horrendous woman a bitch means you say 'bitch' has a fixed sexist connotation and there is no debate about it possible, that this is a universal truth so to speak.
As I see it, it is universal and there is no debate on one level. And yet, I also embrace your view, and your perspective, and paradoxically, I fully embrace the fact that there actually is debate. (see my signature!!!!!) I well know my view is from that of being a fallable human being, and I seek to grow in unity and wholeness all the time (rather than growing unconsciously through separation and fragmentation!)! I'm in total agreement with you, that any fringe view or approach (ie: in this thread, your view seems to be the minority) is not to be dismissed, if we are being realistic and if we seek to discern information. All too often, I'm that fringe person, and I know the validity of it! I admit, I don't see your perspective at all. Although I get that words only have the power we give them. (at this point in time, we cannot gloss over the fact that in the human unconscious, such words hold certain powers over us collectively until we do the healing work) When I think I see your view, it's through the filter of my own experiences which differ....
Ultimately, it's like in quantum physics...when to measure one aspect of reality, we lose out on being able to measure another aspect...which is why I know the importance of accepting all views, rather than getting lost in my ego.
Also, there is no such thing as an objective view...ever...even though there are distinct natural laws we live within. I do believe that as we learn that the objective does not exist, we will also literally fulfill our human destiny and recognize our creative power to also change natural law! (yay 2012!!)
And that is, I think, not the case and it thus becomes a humanitarian issue. Because right now, in society, insulting men is absolutely accepted, so this would mean, if you want equal treatment, that it would also be acceptable for women to be insulted - with a feminine word or a gender neutral word. It is perfectly accepted that men are insulted with masculine words as well.
I agree this is a humanitarian issue! It's to the detriment of human beings that insulting men is accepted! It's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face! What I find acceptable and what society finds acceptable are very different things!! I don't justify the unacceptable. And I've learned what is/is not unacceptable the very hard way.
Thus, if you want that to change, if you want offensive speech acts to change i.e. for both sexes, doesn't it become a humanitarian issue? And if you only want it for one gender and not the other isn't that sexism?
Obviously I'm only speaking for myself here. I don't "want it to change". I accept the way things are. I trust that we're exactly where we need to be for exacting reasons. I'm happy to have found my way beyond the cycles. There is no victim/victor in the cycles...that's an illusion. Those perpetuating the cycles will learn (or not) by the consequences of their actions. It's perfect! I'm at peace with it!
I don't necessarily feel we need to actively make certain words unacceptable. I tend to agree more with that quote I posted earlier.
We all have free choice to choose for ourselves, as it should be. Which I think you agree. I merely point out the consequences of different choices.
It's part of the patriarchical mindset we perpetuate to continue to paint certain behaviours as objectively right/wrong. I won't make me "right" and you "wrong", because to do so is actually out of synch with natural law and harmony. When I step into right/wrong thinking, I create my own conflict. Duality is a part of human evolution that we're learning, the very hard way, to move beyond.
If someone calls me an asshole I can react to it but by doing so I only show I am offended and give that word power. If I don't react and simply think to myself or just know, that person does not define me, I strip that word of its power.
So, instead of making words unacceptable I think we should teach respect and not let ourselves be reduced to something less because of another person's words.
I agree with you in essence as I said yesterday. I aspire to finding ways to heal the hold the tribal mindset has had over me so that I can soar in freedom and peace. I've found it's absolutely crucial to do so in ways that I own and accept the problem and then release it. Note that owning it is half the battle! The REAL problem happens when people "try" not to give words power...and in denying the power the words have over them, (because they have not healed the inner wounds) people deny themselves their own awareness -- consciousness. It's so rampant and widespread. It's the underlying human imbalance, due to repressing issues that we continue doing, thinking it's "right".
despite what Specifics thinks, I have had some of my most challenging debates with you on many major topics!! Probably because we differ on some very key points!!!! And we're both reasonable, so we actually address the hard questions! therefore, like with others like farfromglorified, I value my friendship with you, given the circumstances and how we step beyond our differences, all the more! Peace.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
My friendship with Collin is independent of the truth. I called you out because you were providing an example of exactly what I referred to re: the patriarchical way that both men and women act out all day long, regardless of what we say we believe. This is what I believe is the crux of the issue.
the insult bitch is a sexist term. as a philosophical point it isnt one that interests me. to see it philosophised without acknowledging first the truth is offensive to the truth and is nothing but paying homage to your own intelligence. the truth of it needs admitting and hasn't been.
the insult bitch is a sexist term. as a philosophical point it isnt one that interests me. to see it philosophised without acknowledging first the truth is offensive to the truth and is nothing but paying homage to your own intelligence. the truth of it needs admitting and hasn't been.
I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.
Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.
I'm done with this thread.
Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail
I think that rascism and sexism are different and that calling girls sluts, bitches and so fouth is merely employing an adjective to describe a persons characteristics (whether or not such descriptions are true or not). If i call my friend "a fat cow" chances are she isnt fat nor cow-like, but i might want to hurt her because she has broken my shoes, eaten my cake, or stolen my boyfriend . . . but to swear at someone based on their skin colour is just inhumane, and i think comes from people who are really rather stupid.
It IS worse and does carry an anti-female sentiment and connotation.
Unlike Heineken Helen..I DO see and feel a difference.
If it's offensive to the group to whom it is referring then it is offensive. End of story. No?
Nope! Maybe again this is a location thing... over here, I know fuck all people who would be offended by bitch... simply cos it can often be used as a term of endearment... or feigning offence. If I was arguing with someone and they called me a bitch, I'd be thinking 'that's pretty weak'. Cos it's just not all that harsh.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I think that rascism and sexism are different and that calling girls sluts, bitches and so fouth is merely employing an adjective to describe a persons characteristics (whether or not such descriptions are true or not).
Very very very well put!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.
Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.
I'm done with this thread.
Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail
Because i found it to be (edit: mostly) meaningless and mostly pointless after reading back thru it 20 mins later. You might want to employ those tactics yourself sometime.
Nope! Maybe again this is a location thing... over here, I know fuck all people who would be offended by bitch... simply cos it can often be used as a term of endearment... or feigning offence. If I was arguing with someone and they called me a bitch, I'd be thinking 'that's pretty weak'. Cos it's just not all that harsh.
it is used widespread in an easygoing manner and in easygoing context, thats not an issue, the issue is does the word have a sexist connotation?
anyway, fuck it, im off to email my friend in a huff..:)
it is used widespread in an easygoing manner and in easygoing context, thats not an issue, the issue is does the word have a sexist connotation?
Nope... cos people don't think about every word they say and analyse the history and origins of it... and I'd rather things stay that way... otherwise conversations will be pretty fucking boring we could live in an orwellian world where we can only use 'acceptable' words and all others are 'illegal'... OR we could stop looking so bloody deeply into everything!
I'm female and it goes NOWHERE near offending me.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Nope... cos people don't think about every word they say and analyse the history and origins of it... and I'd rather things stay that way... otherwise conversations will be pretty fucking boring we could live in an orwellian world where we can only use 'acceptable' words and all others are 'illegal'... OR we could stop looking so bloody deeply into everything!
I'm female and it goes NOWHERE near offending me.
I get a feeling it'd take a lot to offend you!:p
fuck it! i'll go along with it because you're right it's a boring fucking subject and i wish i'd just left it about 3 posts ago!!!:D
This is because the sexisim that is rampantly acted out is unconscious. The majority of people are completely oblivious to it. Those who are conscious of, observe, and point out such dynamics are not responsible for creating them...rather those who act them out in thought/word/deed are.
fuck it! i'll go along with it because you're right it's a boring fucking subject and i wish i'd just left it about 3 posts ago!!!:D
It's not that I'm right... I am and I'm not... these are opinions... there's no black and white when it comes to opinions. Lol, it DOES take a good bit to offend me alright... and sometimes I can see how and why people get offended... but a lot of the time I wonder why they bother... seems a lot of effort when, most likely, the offense was not intended.
Besides, what ya gonna do? And should we not have a right to offend eachother anyway? What's wrong with that?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
It's not that I'm right... I am and I'm not... these are opinions... there's no black and white when it comes to opinions. Lol, it DOES take a good bit to offend me alright... and sometimes I can see how and why people get offended... but a lot of the time I wonder why they bother... seems a lot of effort when, most likely, the offense was not intended.
Besides, what ya gonna do? And should we not have a right to offend eachother anyway? What's wrong with that?
We have the ability to offend each other, we have the ability to chop off eachothers arms if we want i guess ( although i think theres an issue of 1 arm being left (or right) i suppose ) You got me with the rights thing, i don't know, i guess we have whatever rights we give ourselves.
I'm not arguing rights and wrongs cos personally i find it very hard to work out the whole right and wrong thing, i guess eddie said it best with good or bad ( i prefer the Black Crowes these days anyway ).
But then theres facts, or the truth, and bloody minded as i am being (mostly for a laugh, although i seem to have landed in a humour free zone, guess i have to go away and question myself on that one!) thems the facts!!
We have the ability to offend each other, we have the ability to chop off eachothers arms if we want i guess ( although i think theres an issue of 1 arm being left (or right) i suppose ) You got me with the rights thing, i don't know, i guess we have whatever rights we give ourselves.
I'm not arguing rights and wrongs cos personally i find it very hard to work out the whole right and wrong thing, i guess eddie said it best with good or bad ( i prefer the Black Crowes these days anyway ).
But then theres facts, or the truth, and bloody minded as i am being (mostly for a laugh, although i seem to have landed in a humour free zone, guess i have to go away and question myself on that one!) thems the facts!!
I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake
I have a friend and he's very very easily offended or hurt might be a better word. He always feels a victim and he feels his actions somehow offend me, or that I'm the victim of his actions. He's always apologizing for everything, he takes everything personally.
I literally can't stand to hang out with him sometimes, because he sucks the fun out of everything. One minute you're all having a good time and the next you have to stop the conversation to explain - what everyone else understands - that you're taking the piss and just having some fun and it's not personal.
We thought if he went out with us regularly he'd see we all do it and everyone's the "victim" at one point and no one apologizes, that he'd stop doing it himself and he'd stop feeling offended or rather feeling hurt. But that's not the case.
She girlfriend broke up with him and I told him I'd still hang out with her too because she'd been my friend almost as long as he's been my friend. "Why, yes of course I understand that, Collin. It's only logical." Then one night I watched a movie with his ex and afterwards we were going to go to the bar, but when we got there she noticed his bike and said she didn't want to go in because she knew he wouldn't be able to handle her presence. I told her we could go somewhere else, but she told me to go ahead anyway without her, basically sarcficing her night out for him. When I came in I told him that I had watched a movie with her, he turned pale, needed to sit down. He thought I did that to hurt him as if I was saying 'I can still hang out with her and you can't'. I had a very long tedious emotional conversation with him (I could have been having a drink and having fun with his ex) when he after literally hours came to the conclusion it was normal that I wouldn't just drop a friend because they were no longer together.
Next week, same scenario, different friend. He also had a long tedious conversation about the exact same thing.
I guess it depends on who you're talking to and how well you know them. There are a few different scenarios... you may be talking to someone who you KNOW is easily offended... you can choose to give a fuck that they're easily offended and watch every word you say to them... you can choose not to talk to them at all... or you can just choose to be yourself and fuck them if they find offense. Or it's somebody you share a sense of humour with... you know you can say whatever you like and they will find your attempts at being a bitch humourous. I, personally, would find it EXTREMELY difficult to have a conversation with somebody I know is easily offended. Cos 1. I probably WILL offend them at some stage... and 2. LIGHTEN UP for fuck sake
It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone taking offence or not, how they use words, who they are talking to, you can all go away and philosophize the power of words, the effect of words, the context of words, the most boring bullshit about words you can think of, as much as you like.
If everyone stopped talking and found a whole new way to communicate then words would require no meaning. The very fact that people can talk to each other, whether that be to find truth, to have a laugh, to discuss the weather or to worship themselves, means that words have meanings.
I can agree that possibly the best way round it is to take power away from the word by using it casually yourself, learning to ignore it all together or whatever, doesnt change the meaning of the word, otherwise there would be no point in going through that process in the first place.
I really have not the slightest interest in this shit anymore!!!!!
It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone taking offence or not, how they use words, who they are talking to, you can all go away and philosophize the power of words, the effect of words, the context of words, the most boring bullshit about words you can think of, as much as you like.
If everyone stopped talking and found a whole new way to communicate then words would require no meaning. The very fact that people can talk to each other, whether that be to find truth, to have a laugh, to discuss the weather or to worship themselves, means that words have meanings.
I can agree that possibly the best way round it is to take power away from the word by using it casually yourself, learning to ignore it all together or whatever, doesnt change the meaning of the word, otherwise there would be no point in going through that process in the first place.
I really have not the slightest interest in this shit anymore!!!!!
I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!
This is a great point, and it shows that the words aren't purely objective. People change the meanings all the time.
Especially those who have been wounded, they like to take words and change their experiences by giving them new meanings.
Even anti-sexist rhetoric doesn't necessarily connote the "Truth"...it is a way of using logic/reason to create power for one group. and to give voice to what one group experiences. These dynamics continue to change as groups of people and individuals struggle politically and power dynamics shift.
And still, Specific's point holds true, too.
It's all about perspective.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I dunno... it can be fun bastardising a language... we Irish have been doing that to the English language ever since they made us speak it. And yes, words have meanings... but meanings change. I mean it's now offensive to call something gay... but gay means happy :eek: wtf???? It's interesting reading books written decades ago and hearing some of the terms that were perfectly acceptable then and now these words are banned practically!
bore off! yes gay means happy and gay means homosexual, and people use it as a way to slag something thru homophobia, which then becomes more common, but the imagery and feel that goes with the word (which is what its all about isnt it?) can be altered in your head to mean either. You can learn, or just naturally, see bitch as a joke, it can be used as a joke, you might like dogs whatever, you might like being called a female dog, you might even like being abused, who knows, the fact is the word is concentrating on sex and therefore the imagery that goes with that word becomes a sex orientated thing and is sexist.
Whether thats acceptable, unacceptable, necessary or even desired is nothing to do with me!
And whoop de do for the ever so clever Irish the english do that themselves, and go talk to a yank, or adolf hitler over in your referendum thread!
bore off! yes gay means happy and gay means homosexual, and people use it as a way to slag something thru homophobia, which then becomes more common, but the imagery and feel that goes with the word (which is what its all about isnt it?) can be altered in your head to mean either. You can learn, or just naturally, see bitch as a joke, it can be used as a joke, you might like dogs whatever, you might like being called a female dog, you might even like being abused, who knows, the fact is the word is concentrating on sex and therefore the imagery that goes with that word becomes a sex orientated thing and is sexist.
Whether thats acceptable, unacceptable, necessary or even desired is nothing to do with me!
And whoop de do for the ever so clever Irish : p the english do that themselves, and go talk to a yank, or adolf hitler over in your referendum thread! : )
ok... and in the meantime you just continue to be continuously offended! seriously though, does it not get boring? Oh perhaps that's why you keep mentioning being bored?
If I laugh at someone calling me a bitch, it is neither an invitation to abuse NOR an admission that I like being abused... I'm still failing to see the connection.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
why is it that we have no problem calling women sluts, bitches and tramps but the N word is look very down upon among what is considerdered polite society.
Well... for me the worse word I can say is "cunt".... So I have rarely used it. But the "N" word is pretty damn easy for me to say... I guess since I grew up in the hood, it doesn't have much meaning left...
2000-10-28 San Bernardino
2003-06-02 Irvine
2003-10-26 Mountain View-Bridge School
2006-07-09 Los Angeles
2006-07-10 Los Angeles
2006-10-22 Mountain View- Bridge School
2008-07-19 UCLA-Who Rock Honors
2009-10-1 Los Angeles-2
2009-10-9 San Diego
ok... and in the meantime you just continue to be continuously offended! seriously though, does it not get boring? Oh perhaps that's why you keep mentioning being bored?
If I laugh at someone calling me a bitch, it is neither an invitation to abuse NOR an admission that I like being abused... I'm still failing to see the connection.
so choose one of the other options..
yes i am bored of being offended, i see it as baseless philosophy, it offends me, because its pointless from the outset and then i can't move on..
but yar roight in a very real sense, and a deep breath goes a laaang way! and i can be an ignorant, self absorbed prick
and i feel bad about the hitler remark now...but he is a bit of a fascist, maybe if he wasn't german as well the remark wouldnt make me feel so out of order:(
i genuinelly do apologise if i have offended anyone, and im pretty sure its possible, i can be offensive!..i have said everything i mean, i could be more diplomatic, but i don't like politics!:) I don't believe im more intelligent or a better person than anyone here, i just can't debate something if it doesnt seem to have any bearing in the real world, and that probably just means im a rubbish philosopher more than anything about anyone elses philosophical ability!
Anyway, I'll probably change my mind and be back arguing like some clumsy dinosaur amongst you beautifull gazelles..:p but right now im of the mind that
1, i may be more cut out for science! so im going to take a look in that direction!
2, i need to get a more sociable and demanding job!
Anyway i guess im just covering my trail hoping that not everyone thinks im a bellend ( a prick/asshole/moron take your pick!..:) )
i genuinelly do apologise if i have offended anyone, and im pretty sure its possible, i can be offensive!..i have said everything i mean, i could be more diplomatic, but i don't like politics!:) I don't believe im more intelligent or a better person than anyone here, i just can't debate something if it doesnt seem to have any bearing in the real world, and that probably just means im a rubbish philosopher more than anything about anyone elses philosophical ability!
Anyway, I'll probably change my mind and be back arguing like some clumsy dinosaur amongst you beautifull gazelles..:p but right now im of the mind that
1, i may be more cut out for science! so im going to take a look in that direction!
2, i need to get a more sociable and demanding job!
Anyway i guess im just covering my trail hoping that not everyone thinks im a bellend ( a prick/asshole/moron take your pick!..:) )
peas'
I think your understanding of sexism is the opposite of clumsy -- it's quite sophisticated.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
The position of the woman has in this thread been compared to the position of black people during slavery. Now you can tell me women don't have equal power and I will agree, but that comparison is insane.
Well, I agree with this but that's not what the people in this thread have been arguing.
If you call women assholes, it's all good, because it's gender-neutral. (this seems to be the concensus here in this thread)
Ah, but here we go back to the same discussion i.e. is the word bitch sexist or not? To assume people are unconsciously perpetuating sexism by calling, for instance, a horrendous woman a bitch means you say 'bitch' has a fixed sexist connotation and there is no debate about it possible, that this is a universal truth so to speak.
And that is, I think, not the case and it thus becomes a humanitarian issue. Because right now, in society, insulting men is absolutely accepted, so this would mean, if you want equal treatment, that it would also be acceptable for women to be insulted - with a feminine word or a gender neutral word. It is perfectly accepted that men are insulted with masculine words as well.
Thus, if you want that to change, if you want offensive speech acts to change i.e. for both sexes, doesn't it become a humanitarian issue? And if you only want it for one gender and not the other isn't that sexism?
I don't necessarily feel we need to actively make certain words unacceptable. I tend to agree more with that quote I posted earlier.
If someone calls me an asshole I can react to it but by doing so I only show I am offended and give that word power. If I don't react and simply think to myself or just know, that person does not define me, I strip that word of its power.
So, instead of making words unacceptable I think we should teach respect and not let ourselves be reduced to something less because of another person's words.
naděje umírá poslední
If i am a woman do i still get the applause?
I spend a lot of my life burning in a pit of my own making (or maybe forced by experience) trying to distinguish the difference between my own opinion/need to feel intelligent/need for power, and what is the "truth" burning through the bullshit. I'm not there yet but i have no intention of resting with it.
Today i have landed on quite a pleasant feeling of playfullness, which i am not scared to enjoy and long may it continue.
I think were you not such close friends with Collin you may not feel the need to have pulled me up for arguing a simple truth?..:)
we can discuss and happilly disagree on as many different possible meanings and connotations of the word bitch as you like, but the truth of it you explain quite well yourself.
Your friendship is obviously one worth having, personally i don't look too hard for friends, i find that people that do tend to look also for enemies, or at the very least will protect them unneccessarily..:)
And right now i have to go serve THE man for 12 hours, so i wouldnt want you to think im ducking any issues if i don't reply...:)
Peas
cool.
My friendship with Collin is independent of the truth. I called you out because you were providing an example of exactly what I referred to re: the patriarchical way that both men and women act out all day long, regardless of what we say we believe. This is what I believe is the crux of the issue.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Ultimately, it's like in quantum physics...when to measure one aspect of reality, we lose out on being able to measure another aspect...which is why I know the importance of accepting all views, rather than getting lost in my ego.
Also, there is no such thing as an objective view...ever...even though there are distinct natural laws we live within. I do believe that as we learn that the objective does not exist, we will also literally fulfill our human destiny and recognize our creative power to also change natural law! (yay 2012!!)
I agree this is a humanitarian issue! It's to the detriment of human beings that insulting men is accepted! It's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face! What I find acceptable and what society finds acceptable are very different things!! I don't justify the unacceptable. And I've learned what is/is not unacceptable the very hard way.
Obviously I'm only speaking for myself here. I don't "want it to change". I accept the way things are. I trust that we're exactly where we need to be for exacting reasons. I'm happy to have found my way beyond the cycles. There is no victim/victor in the cycles...that's an illusion. Those perpetuating the cycles will learn (or not) by the consequences of their actions. It's perfect! I'm at peace with it!
We all have free choice to choose for ourselves, as it should be. Which I think you agree. I merely point out the consequences of different choices.
It's part of the patriarchical mindset we perpetuate to continue to paint certain behaviours as objectively right/wrong. I won't make me "right" and you "wrong", because to do so is actually out of synch with natural law and harmony. When I step into right/wrong thinking, I create my own conflict. Duality is a part of human evolution that we're learning, the very hard way, to move beyond.
I agree with you in essence as I said yesterday. I aspire to finding ways to heal the hold the tribal mindset has had over me so that I can soar in freedom and peace. I've found it's absolutely crucial to do so in ways that I own and accept the problem and then release it. Note that owning it is half the battle! The REAL problem happens when people "try" not to give words power...and in denying the power the words have over them, (because they have not healed the inner wounds) people deny themselves their own awareness -- consciousness. It's so rampant and widespread. It's the underlying human imbalance, due to repressing issues that we continue doing, thinking it's "right".
despite what Specifics thinks, I have had some of my most challenging debates with you on many major topics!! Probably because we differ on some very key points!!!! And we're both reasonable, so we actually address the hard questions! therefore, like with others like farfromglorified, I value my friendship with you, given the circumstances and how we step beyond our differences, all the more! Peace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
the insult bitch is a sexist term. as a philosophical point it isnt one that interests me. to see it philosophised without acknowledging first the truth is offensive to the truth and is nothing but paying homage to your own intelligence. the truth of it needs admitting and hasn't been.
I thought your other post, which you deleted, was much more interesting. I wonder why you deleted it.
Great to see you have a monopoly on the truth, buddy.
I'm done with this thread.
Angelica, I'll gladly discuss this further with you through e-mail
naděje umírá poslední
I think that rascism and sexism are different and that calling girls sluts, bitches and so fouth is merely employing an adjective to describe a persons characteristics (whether or not such descriptions are true or not). If i call my friend "a fat cow" chances are she isnt fat nor cow-like, but i might want to hurt her because she has broken my shoes, eaten my cake, or stolen my boyfriend . . . but to swear at someone based on their skin colour is just inhumane, and i think comes from people who are really rather stupid.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Because i found it to be (edit: mostly) meaningless and mostly pointless after reading back thru it 20 mins later. You might want to employ those tactics yourself sometime.
it is used widespread in an easygoing manner and in easygoing context, thats not an issue, the issue is does the word have a sexist connotation?
anyway, fuck it, im off to email my friend in a huff..:)
I'm female and it goes NOWHERE near offending me.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I get a feeling it'd take a lot to offend you!:p
fuck it! i'll go along with it because you're right it's a boring fucking subject and i wish i'd just left it about 3 posts ago!!!:D
Exactly.
Besides, what ya gonna do?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
We have the ability to offend each other, we have the ability to chop off eachothers arms if we want i guess ( although i think theres an issue of 1 arm being left (or right) i suppose
I'm not arguing rights and wrongs cos personally i find it very hard to work out the whole right and wrong thing, i guess eddie said it best with good or bad ( i prefer the Black Crowes these days anyway
But then theres facts, or the truth, and bloody minded as i am being (mostly for a laugh, although i seem to have landed in a humour free zone, guess i have to go away and question myself on that one!) thems the facts!!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I have a friend and he's very very easily offended or hurt might be a better word. He always feels a victim and he feels his actions somehow offend me, or that I'm the victim of his actions. He's always apologizing for everything, he takes everything personally.
I literally can't stand to hang out with him sometimes, because he sucks the fun out of everything. One minute you're all having a good time and the next you have to stop the conversation to explain - what everyone else understands - that you're taking the piss and just having some fun and it's not personal.
We thought if he went out with us regularly he'd see we all do it and everyone's the "victim" at one point and no one apologizes, that he'd stop doing it himself and he'd stop feeling offended or rather feeling hurt. But that's not the case.
She girlfriend broke up with him and I told him I'd still hang out with her too because she'd been my friend almost as long as he's been my friend. "Why, yes of course I understand that, Collin. It's only logical." Then one night I watched a movie with his ex and afterwards we were going to go to the bar, but when we got there she noticed his bike and said she didn't want to go in because she knew he wouldn't be able to handle her presence. I told her we could go somewhere else, but she told me to go ahead anyway without her, basically sarcficing her night out for him. When I came in I told him that I had watched a movie with her, he turned pale, needed to sit down. He thought I did that to hurt him as if I was saying 'I can still hang out with her and you can't'. I had a very long tedious emotional conversation with him (I could have been having a drink and having fun with his ex) when he after literally hours came to the conclusion it was normal that I wouldn't just drop a friend because they were no longer together.
Next week, same scenario, different friend. He also had a long tedious conversation about the exact same thing.
naděje umírá poslední
It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone taking offence or not, how they use words, who they are talking to, you can all go away and philosophize the power of words, the effect of words, the context of words, the most boring bullshit about words you can think of, as much as you like.
If everyone stopped talking and found a whole new way to communicate then words would require no meaning. The very fact that people can talk to each other, whether that be to find truth, to have a laugh, to discuss the weather or to worship themselves, means that words have meanings.
I can agree that possibly the best way round it is to take power away from the word by using it casually yourself, learning to ignore it all together or whatever, doesnt change the meaning of the word, otherwise there would be no point in going through that process in the first place.
I really have not the slightest interest in this shit anymore!!!!!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Especially those who have been wounded, they like to take words and change their experiences by giving them new meanings.
Even anti-sexist rhetoric doesn't necessarily connote the "Truth"...it is a way of using logic/reason to create power for one group. and to give voice to what one group experiences. These dynamics continue to change as groups of people and individuals struggle politically and power dynamics shift.
And still, Specific's point holds true, too.
It's all about perspective.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
bore off! yes gay means happy and gay means homosexual, and people use it as a way to slag something thru homophobia, which then becomes more common, but the imagery and feel that goes with the word (which is what its all about isnt it?) can be altered in your head to mean either. You can learn, or just naturally, see bitch as a joke, it can be used as a joke, you might like dogs whatever, you might like being called a female dog, you might even like being abused, who knows, the fact is the word is concentrating on sex and therefore the imagery that goes with that word becomes a sex orientated thing and is sexist.
Whether thats acceptable, unacceptable, necessary or even desired is nothing to do with me!
And whoop de do for the ever so clever Irish
If I laugh at someone calling me a bitch, it is neither an invitation to abuse NOR an admission that I like being abused... I'm still failing to see the connection.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Well... for me the worse word I can say is "cunt".... So I have rarely used it. But the "N" word is pretty damn easy for me to say... I guess since I grew up in the hood, it doesn't have much meaning left...
2003-06-02 Irvine
2003-10-26 Mountain View-Bridge School
2006-07-09 Los Angeles
2006-07-10 Los Angeles
2006-10-22 Mountain View- Bridge School
2008-07-19 UCLA-Who Rock Honors
2009-10-1 Los Angeles-2
2009-10-9 San Diego
so choose one of the other options..
yes i am bored of being offended, i see it as baseless philosophy, it offends me, because its pointless from the outset and then i can't move on..
but yar roight in a very real sense, and a deep breath goes a laaang way! and i can be an ignorant, self absorbed prick
and i feel bad about the hitler remark now...but he is a bit of a fascist, maybe if he wasn't german as well the remark wouldnt make me feel so out of order:(
Anyway, I'll probably change my mind and be back arguing like some clumsy dinosaur amongst you beautifull gazelles..:p but right now im of the mind that
1, i may be more cut out for science! so im going to take a look in that direction!
2, i need to get a more sociable and demanding job!
Anyway i guess im just covering my trail hoping that not everyone thinks im a bellend ( a prick/asshole/moron take your pick!..:) )
peas'
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!