The War on Women: Abortion and the South

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Same old boring stuff from corporate whore the virgin and abstainer with an opinion about something he knows nothing about. :rolleyes:

Not to mention endless crap from fishboy.

Yup I'm bored of it.

Please fellas, when you're next having a medical procedure can you let me know. I need to come protest and call you names and give you shit. It's only fair. You deserve it.

Know this. If by chance some leftover from his ejaculation gets stuck in me, it's coming out, with the vacuum. If he wants to keep it and let it grow inside him so be it but be damned I'm being the incubator. And you'll not be stopping me.

This is precisely the attitude that keeps abortion an issue.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that keeps abortion an issue.

Don't talk to me about attitude. I just read endless bloody pages of yours.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Don't talk to me about attitude. I just read endless bloody pages of yours.

Why waste your time? You are just like most people who "debate" this issue. You aren't open to debate, you have your mind set on this paradigm "It's my body I'll do what I want." and you won't defend that position against the fact that a human fetus is not your body. You simply lash out, like Catefrances with some irrational and emotionally charged rubbish.

Ahnimus

This is the problem I see with the abortion debate. You have two completely stubborn and opposed groups with indefensible ideological views.

Pro-Life
The soul enters the fetus at the point of conception.

This is a typical pro-life argument and it's indefensible. There is no evidence of a soul, and the organism isn't even a "fetus" at the point of conception. These people tend to be negligent about the actual process of human physical development.

Pro-Choice
It's my body and I'll do what I want with it.

It's not your body. It's the body of another organism that was created within your body. It is connected to your body by an cord that provides it with nutrients. I suppose you could ingest something deadly and kill the child that way. But be warned, this is deteriorating the image of women as being all-loving caring individuals. This whole position of pro-choice is typically a matter of self-interest and very little concern for the fetus.

A stricly unbias approach
Once the fetus is viable, it's well into pregnancy and the decision to abort should have been made, save some unforseen complications. The fetus has a fully functional central nervous system, is arguably aware to some degree and can certainly sense pain. Barring some extenuating circumstances abortion of a viable fetus is absolutely a selfish act by the mother. Prior to the age of viability, I can't definitely say that the fetus is aware, it has only a partially functioning CNS and probably cannot sense pain to any meaningful degree. Since it's not a viable human being with sensory perceptions, the primary focus of concern should be on the mother's future, and that makes it a matter of personal choice.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Why waste your time? You are just like most people who "debate" this issue. You aren't open to debate, you have your mind set on this paradigm "It's my body I'll do what I want." and you won't defend that position against the fact that a human fetus is not your body. You simply lash out, like Catefrances with some irrational and emotionally charged rubbish.

You're not debating the issue either Ryan. You're monopolizing it as usual.
You've decided HOW women should be, you've decided that anyone that doesn't agree with your very pc and moderate views is clearly a rampant feminazi, so really what is the fucking point? You'll never have an abortion, you'll never be pregnant, so you'll never REALLY KNOW. And you can tell me that you think you know till the cows come home, you can tell me all about the very clever stuff you've read that you think makes you a superior expert on the subject but you don't know and unless there's some radical advances in science and biology you will never know. Now go find a debate that's more satisfying for you. Clearly you've taken over this one with your crap so there's no challenge here anymore. I think you'll never advance your cause with this kind of communication and I think you should shut up. Much like you think I have no right to my body and that it's your right to dictate terms to me about how I will live in it and treat it.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

You're not debating the issue either Ryan. You're monopolizing it as usual.
You've decided HOW women should be, you've decided that anyone that doesn't agree with your very pc and moderate views is clearly a rampant feminazi, so really what is the fucking point? You'll never have an abortion, you'll never be pregnant, so you'll never REALLY KNOW. And you can tell me that you think you know till the cows come home, you can tell me all about the very clever stuff you've read that you think makes you a superior expert on the subject but you don't know and unless there's some radical advances in science and biology you will never know. Now go find a debate that's more satisfying for you. Clearly you've taken over this one with your crap so there's no challenge here anymore. I think you'll never advance your cause with this kind of communication and I think you should shut up. Much like you think I have no right to my body and that it's your right to dictate terms to me about how I will live in it and treat it.

Jeanie, I'm putting matters of abortion on the table. The most important aspect of which is the functionality and development of the human embryo/fetus. That is what the abortion debate is about. Female bodies are involved, yes, but it's not the end-all of the debate. It's only half of the debate. My points are stated quite clearly for you to address.

catefrances

810wmb wrote:

well?

well what? of course you can't kill something that's not alive. and again i reiterate... i never denied an embryo was alive. i've never denied it is human. so i guess you asking.... what? exactly.

wolfbear

Ahnimus wrote:

Some women might say "Circumcision is a male topic" but this ignores the fact that women have every capacity of knowledge to have an opinion on circumcision. It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of biological facts. Facts are things everyone can know regardless of their race, creed or gender.

Abortion is likewise, a debate about facts, not preferences.

I disagree somewhat on this issue. I do think it is more of a male topic. I might have some knowledge about circumcision, but would not make that decision as you're right in that it is biological and since I do not have that bit of equipment I would defer to a man who does. Same thing goes with a vasectomy or any procedure that applies to a male only item. I just feel it is best left up to someone who can relate on a more personal level. Some of these issues are about more than "just facts". Just my opinion.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

The real issue is men trying to own women? Give me a break! Are you that dense? I understand you've grown up in a feminist society that trashes the male gender any chance it gets, but come on. This is ridiculous! It's not about you, it's about the child. It is your life, but it's not just your life, it's also the life of a potentially viable human being, that is the point. I personally don't think any guy gives a shit what you do with your body, that's not the issue. Wake up!

excuse me ryan? i have not 'grown up' in a feminist society. i do not conbsdier mtyself a feminist. but you know what the more i read and am exposed to male bullshit the closer i come to burning my bra.

i disagree. this issue is about a woman's right to determine the course of her own life. ah yes... a potentially viable human being, emphasis on the potentially part. this does not make something so. it merely states that an outcome is possible.

me wake up? don't me laugh ryan.

Ahnimus

wolfbear wrote:

I disagree somewhat on this issue. I do think it is more of a male topic. I might have some knowledge about circumcision, but would not make that decision as you're right in that it is biological and since I do not have that bit of equipment I would defer to a man who does. Same thing goes with a vasectomy or any procedure that applies to a male only item. I just feel it is best left up to someone who can relate on a more personal level. Some of these issues are about more than "just facts". Just my opinion.

What more is there to it?

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Jeanie, I'm putting matters of abortion on the table. The most important aspect of which is the functionality and development of the human embryo/fetus. That is what the abortion debate is about. Female bodies are involved, yes, but it's not the end-all of the debate. It's only half of the debate. My points are stated quite clearly for you to address.

If you think a cluster of cells that has the potential to be a human being is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the abortion debate then I feel sorry for you. It's not FEMALE BODIES involved and only half the debate, it's WOMEN who are pregnant and not wanting to be incubators for said cell cluster that cannot support itself. And I'm not going to addressing it any further with you. Get back to me when you are pregnant and considering an abortion then we'll have something to discuss.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

excuse me ryan? i have not 'grown up' in a feminist society. i do not conbsdier mtyself a feminist. but you know what the more i read and am exposed to male bullshit the closer i come to burning my bra.

i disagree. this issue is about a woman's right to determine the course of her own life. ah yes... a potentially viable human being, emphasis on the potentially part. this does not make something so. it merely states that an outcome is possible.

me wake up? don't me laugh ryan.

For some reason, I picture a downtrodden and irate, possibly mentally ill woman ramming a coat hanger up her uterus to descimate a healthy child, all the while hysterically repeating the phrase "It's my body I'll do what I want."

Certainly, your and Jeanie's attitudes towards this topic don't support the existing paradigm that women are loving and caring towards their offspring by nature. Rather, the claim appears to be a self-serving motivation for women to win more child-custody battles when they do in-fact want the children.

Personally, I'd rather you not mother a child. Unwanted children raised by parents like yourself tend to have academic and social difficulties later on, they are more likely to be abused and neglected and to abuse and neglect their own children.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Why waste your time? You are just like most people who "debate" this issue. You aren't open to debate, you have your mind set on this paradigm "It's my body I'll do what I want." and you won't defend that position against the fact that a human fetus is not your body. You simply lash out, like Catefrances with some irrational and emotionally charged rubbish.

please explain to me how this issue isn't emotional ryan? have you ever been in the position of having to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy? do you think women sit there and think god damn it im pregnant, phew. fantastic. time for an abortion. i'll just rip that little sucker out of there and all will be sweet? is that what you think ryan? cause i can assure you tis not the case.
a foetus is totally dependent upon its mother for its survival. without her, before its viability is established it would die, so therefore, it is a part of a woman.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

If you think a cluster of cells that has the potential to be a human being is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the abortion debate then I feel sorry for you. It's not FEMALE BODIES involved and only half the debate, it's WOMEN who are pregnant and not wanting to be incubators for said cell cluster that cannot support itself. And I'm not going to addressing it any further with you. Get back to me when you are pregnant and considering an abortion then we'll have something to discuss.

Do you even know what the age of viability is and what it means? You are also a cluster of cells, should I be allowed to end your life if you are sitting on my couch?

This is why scholars on the issue shake their heads at the troves of ignorant citizens who try to have a valid opinion on the debate.

810wmb

catefrances wrote:

well what? of course you can't kill something that's not alive. and again i reiterate... i never denied an embryo was alive. i've never denied it is human. so i guess you asking.... what? exactly.

is it a baby or not? human or not?

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

please explain to me how this issue isn't emotional ryan? have you ever been in the position of having to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy? do you think women sit there and think god damn it im pregnant, phew. fantastic. time for an abortion. i'll just rip that little sucker out of there and all will be sweet? is that what you think ryan? cause i can assure you tis not the case.
a foetus is totally dependent upon its mother for its survival. without her, before its viability is established it would die, so therefore, it is a part of a woman.

Exactly, before it's viable. That is the debate, the debate is on what a mother's rights to abortion should be, based on the development of the fetus. Legally, in most western countries, this is the age of viability. Once the child is viable, and there is no threat to the mother's life, then abortion is no longer an option. Are you going to refute that with some kind of emotional perspective or "woman" perspective? Because none of that is required to come to the same conclusion that myself and others have come to, and how the law actually is most places. Once you can get over yourself and stop using stupid situational arguments to discredit other's viewpoints, we can hopefully come to a democratic and objective agreement and put an end to this stupid debate over abortion.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

For some reason, I picture a downtrodden and irate, possibly mentally ill woman ramming a coat hanger up her uterus to descimate a healthy child, all the while hysterically repeating the phrase "It's my body I'll do what I want."

Certainly, your and Jeanie's attitudes towards this topic don't support the existing paradigm that women are loving and caring towards their offspring by nature. Rather, the claim appears to be a self-serving motivation for women to win more child-custody battles when they do in-fact want the children.

Personally, I'd rather you not mother a child. Unwanted children raised by parents like yourself tend to have academic and social difficulties later on, they are more likely to be abused and neglected and to abuse and neglect their own children.

so now you disparaging my parenting skills and questioning my love for my children?
i have four children. whilst only one of them was actually planned, all four of them are deeply loved, nurtured and defended by me.
if my children's father came to me tomorrow and asked for primary custody , i would aahve no qualms about handing responsibility of them to him. i would not question it nor would i start some humiliating brou-ha-ha simply because i am female.
you know ryan for some reason i am not surprised you had that image in your head. for the first time i feel disappointed by your discourse. and deeply offended.

wolfbear

Ahnimus wrote:

What more is there to it?

The emotional side of it. Hell, I worked with a guy who wouldn't neuter his dog even though he knew he should because he said he couldn't do it to himself. It's not logical, but still a part of the human psychology.

catefrances

810wmb wrote:

is it a baby or not? human or not?

can you not read what i have written?

Ahnimus

wolfbear wrote:

The emotional side of it. Hell, I worked with a guy who wouldn't neuter his dog even though he knew he should because he said he couldn't do it to himself. It's not logical, but still a part of the human psychology.

Yea, but that's just a result of mirror neurons and the human capacity for empathy. Which should indicate that even though one has never been a parent or a woman, one can use their capacity for empathy and understand it.

Still, I would neuter myself it was required. There is emotional discontinuity amongst people in the abortion debate, it can't be submitted as consitent evidence for anything.