I'm not aware of this being new per-say. I think this is a specific Christian concept as opposed to a "womens" concept.
Huh? what's a specific christian concept?
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Nobody commented on this before when I asked. I'm really curious about it. Can somebody please elaborate on it for me?
And, just to stir the shite a bit - All you angry women that are busy accusing men of trying to excercise control over your bodies by banning abortion, perhaps you missed the part in the original article that said the anti-abortion protesters that hang around these clinics are mostly women. . .
"The protesters are mostly women. They look like Sunday school teachers, housewives and hip grandmas. And, during the past few months, they have grown more vocal and more organized, emboldened by the recent closure of the only clinic in Mobile."
Tony Abbott has made it practically impossible to import RU486 here in Australia scott and the new "women's health hotline" has the church involved in its policy and counselling services. Not to mention that there are pharmacists in this country in rural areas that will not stock birth control or supply it. There are other plans afoot by particular groups to expand this limiting access to birth control and sex education. So it's not just happening in America.
And for all your shit stirring, do take a look at the picket lines outside the clinics here in Australia. A great majority are men. I'm not saying that women don't protest, they do, but quite frankly I think any protest outside a medical clinic is in really poor taste. Just because there are women protesting at clinics in the South doesn't mean that men don't dictate policy when it comes to abortion. Surely you saw the recent debates here? Leading the charge? The right honorable Tony Abbott, Health Minister and Catholic male. And he was supported by his mostly male colleagues. Fortunately it would appear that so far, Australian men for the most part do not agree with him. But I doubt very much he's finished with the issue. And don't get me started on McGauran. That man should be locked in jail for his efforts. And yeah, to quote Greens Senator Kerry Nettle, "Tony Abbott keep your rosaries off my ovaries."
Tony Abbott has made it practically impossible to import RU486 here in Australia scott and the new "women's health hotline" has the church involved in its policy and counselling services. Not to mention that there are pharmacists in this country in rural areas that will not stock birth control or supply it. There are other plans afoot by particular groups to expand this limiting access to birth control and sex education. ."
Which is quite ironic since sex education would actually cut down on the occurrance of unwanted pregnancy and by extension, abortion.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
Tony Abbott has made it practically impossible to import RU486 here in Australia scott and the new "women's health hotline" has the church involved in its policy and counselling services. Not to mention that there are pharmacists in this country in rural areas that will not stock birth control or supply it. There are other plans afoot by particular groups to expand this limiting access to birth control and sex education. So it's not just happening in America.
And for all your shit stirring, do take a look at the picket lines outside the clinics here in Australia. A great majority are men. I'm not saying that women don't protest, they do, but quite frankly I think any protest outside a medical clinic is in really poor taste. Just because there are women protesting at clinics in the South doesn't mean that men don't dictate policy when it comes to abortion. Surely you saw the recent debates here? Leading the charge? The right honorable Tony Abbott, Health Minister and Catholic male. And he was supported by his mostly male colleagues. Fortunately it would appear that so far, Australian men for the most part do not agree with him. But I doubt very much he's finished with the issue. And don't get me started on McGauran. That man should be locked in jail for his efforts. And yeah, to quote Greens Senator Kerry Nettle, "Tony Abbott keep your rosaries off my ovaries."
there's just nothing better than a good jesuit educated catholic who thinks he has righteousness on his side.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Which is quite ironic since sex education would actually cut down on the occurrance of unwanted pregnancy and by extension, abortion.
Yes. Which is what makes me wonder what the motivation is. Sometimes, when I see things like this that do not make sense I can only conclude that it is as gue said, a power issue.
Nobody commented on this before when I asked. I'm really curious about it. Can somebody please elaborate on it for me?
I meant to but I became distracted by the US tax code and forgot.
I assume the elimination of sex education is religious or abstinance based.
There is talk on pro life websites about the birth control pill. In addition to its method of no ovulation, sometimes breakthrough ovulation still occures. But the pill still works because it does not allow a fertilized egg to implant in the uterus. This is also how the IUD, norplant, and depo-provera shot work. With fertilized eggs seemingly precious (despite that 50% of them don't implant anyway) they want to outlaw the pill and these methods.
Not to mention that there are pharmacists in this country in rural areas that will not stock birth control or supply it. There are other plans afoot by particular groups to expand this limiting access to birth control and sex education. So it's not just happening in America.
Holy crap! Are you serious? To be honest I haven't really kept up with these issues, but I do remember hearing on triple j about the church being involved in the hotline, which I thought was disgraceful. I also heard (also on hack on triple j) some pretty awful horror stories about ru486, but it sounded like it was more the medical staff and counselors (or lack thereof) that were to blame, not the drug itself, which did what it was supposed to do. When you say birth control do you mean the contraceptive pill, morning after pill, or condoms, or all of the above?
Surely, surely, surely any movement by idiots to limit access to birth control or sex education in Australia would never get far. I like to think that as a society we are secular and sensible (and horny) enough not to allow that to get a toehold. I think the sex education I got at school was pretty good, but they could always do with more. At least I pretty well knew all the theory long before I got to put it into pratice, so to speak.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Of course it is alive. Sperm is alive, eggs are alive too. They are also human. Life is a continuous process. But it is not simply live tissue that makes an individual person. A beating heart is certainly alive and human, but we often transplant these into other individuals without confusion as to the identity of the patient when they recover.
Lets look at the other end of life. We don't keep a corpse without brain activity alive indefinately. This corpse is no different than an embryo. Applying the same standard to an embryo as we would apply to you and I if we had no brain activity we cannot be killed, only unplugged. The same way an embryo cannot be killed.
What it is that we value is not living tissue, but the unique personality of life that comes with brain function. So considering brain function as the mark of a developing person we are looking at no earlier than the 20th week of gestation.
Holy crap! Are you serious? To be honest I haven't really kept up with these issues, but I do remember hearing on triple j about the church being involved in the hotline, which I thought was disgraceful. I also heard (also on hack on triple j) some pretty awful horror stories about ru486, but it sounded like it was more the medical staff and counselors (or lack thereof) that were to blame, not the drug itself, which did what it was supposed to do. When you say birth control do you mean the contraceptive pill, morning after pill, or condoms, or all of the above?
Surely, surely, surely any movement by idiots to limit access to birth control or sex education in Australia would never get far. I like to think that as a society we are secular and sensible (and horny) enough not to allow that to get a toehold. I think the sex education I got at school was pretty good, but they could always do with more. At least I pretty well knew all the theory long before I got to put it into pratice, so to speak.
I know that I read somewhere that since the ban on RU486 has been lifted there has been some talk that Tony has made if very clear to pharmaceutical companies that their PBS status could be affected if they participate in importing the drugs. I could have that not quite right Scott but the implication was that if it was imported into the country there would be consequences federally for other contracts. I'm still trying to find a link.
This one's about the pregnancy advice line and Centacare group.
Part of $51 million given by the government. One does have to wonder who else was funded and if that kind of cash was spent for this who missed out?
One of the benefits of RU486, even though I'm still not sure where I stand on the drug itself, is that in rural areas access to surgical abortion is limited. Along with family planning options. In most rural areas things are pretty crook from a medical stand point anyway. And there has been a lot of talk for a lot of years amongst the sexual health community regarding the inability of young men and women in particular to access effective birth control and pregnancy advice because of how small communities work. I know there was another young girl recently who had some appalling trouble regarding a termination in a country town. I'm just struggling to remember the circumstances so I can access an article.
The unfortunate thing about what is happening with regard to women's reproductive rights in this country and general sex education and birth control options is that it's a dripping tap type effort that the government has employed along with the interested church groups and right to life. They erode as quietly and stealthily as they can one little drip at a time, so that people don't notice so much the gaping hole that's beginning to appear.
I'm all for less abortion but not if it means people living with unwanted pregnancies. And the trouble with Tony is that he's a sneaky bastard with an agenda and unfortunately he has the power at this point.
[ I know there was another young girl recently who had some appalling trouble regarding a termination in a country town. I'm just struggling to remember the circumstances so I can access an article.
Crikey. Ok, I'll have to do some homework. Not that I don't already have plenty of reasons not to vote for tony and his mates anyway.
There was a story last week about a young woman who rocked up late at night at the emergency department at Narrabri hospital in labour, and was turned away because there was no obstetrician on duty. She was told to drive herself to Moree, about three hours away, because they didn't have an ambulance to take her in. I don't know exact the details. I think she had a husband/partner with her, and they did end up driving to Moree. Pretty shocking. Maybe the lesson is don't get pregnant in a small country town. . .
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Crikey. Ok, I'll have to do some homework. Not that I don't already have plenty of reasons not to vote for tony and his mates anyway.
There was a story last week about a young woman who rocked up late at night at the emergency department at Narrabri hospital in labour, and was turned away because there was no obstetrician on duty. She was told to drive herself to Moree, about three hours away, because they didn't have an ambulance to take her in. I don't know exact the details. I think she had a husband/partner with her, and they did end up driving to Moree. Pretty shocking. Maybe the lesson is don't get pregnant in a small country town. . .
Yeah, for all that the health care services are shite in the cities, I'd hate to be in the country. It's just appalling when things like that happen. Although there was that poor woman on the news last week that miscarried in the public toilet of one of the major city hospitals despite her and her husband pleading with the emergency room staff for hours for help. Poor bastards. Much and all as I love the country I can't believe that there isn't equal access to services and truth be told if you're in the country and you're sick, things aren't good. I'd like to see much more done in country areas when it comes to sexual health particularly if the provider's religious or ethical beliefs are able to dictate outcomes. How on earth one man or woman's beliefs are able to hold a whole community to ransom like that I'll never know. When it comes to health the current government has an appalling record and when it comes to sexual health they have a not so secret agenda. Either way, they've not performed well enough in my opinion. And I'd hate to see what them getting in at the next election would do to bolster their confidence. I'm sure we'll see some pretty unimaginable things go on if they do.
i think you guys are confusing the more urban, forward-thinking cities in the south with the south as a whole. maybe folks in atlanta or birmingham have opened their minds a wee bit since the 60's, but it's likely that earl in bumfuck, louisiana is against reproductive rights.
how else do you explain the fact that those states are legislating to restrict a woman's access to safe abortion at every turn?
Safe for everyone but the baby.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
My problem has always been the way this debate is handled.
Look at the thread title "War on Women"
Ok? Being a woman alone does not mean you are pro-choice. There is discontinuty in what women think about abortion. This is a case of a woman assuming that all women share her views, and it's a misogynistic "war" on "women". That is absolutely not the case.
Yet, this paradigm has been championed throughout this thread. Jeanie claiming all women are like her, etc.. It's not even about women, women just happen to be a huge part of pregnancy and abortion.
If everyone takes a personal, or ideological view of this issue then the debates are pointless. It can only end it people's raised emotions and all out personal attacks. All I'm trying to do is bring some reason to the debate and to quash these arguments that seek to degrade other's opinions because of their sex, or their religious beliefs.
Agreed. I don't even see it as completely a "woman's issue". Last time I checked it takes two people to make a baby, one of them being a man.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Comments
I'm not aware of this being new per-say. I think this is a specific Christian concept as opposed to a "womens" concept.
That's my thoughts exactly!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Huh? what's a specific christian concept?
-C Addison
Tony Abbott has made it practically impossible to import RU486 here in Australia scott and the new "women's health hotline" has the church involved in its policy and counselling services. Not to mention that there are pharmacists in this country in rural areas that will not stock birth control or supply it. There are other plans afoot by particular groups to expand this limiting access to birth control and sex education. So it's not just happening in America.
And for all your shit stirring, do take a look at the picket lines outside the clinics here in Australia. A great majority are men. I'm not saying that women don't protest, they do, but quite frankly I think any protest outside a medical clinic is in really poor taste. Just because there are women protesting at clinics in the South doesn't mean that men don't dictate policy when it comes to abortion. Surely you saw the recent debates here? Leading the charge? The right honorable Tony Abbott, Health Minister and Catholic male. And he was supported by his mostly male colleagues. Fortunately it would appear that so far, Australian men for the most part do not agree with him. But I doubt very much he's finished with the issue. And don't get me started on McGauran. That man should be locked in jail for his efforts. And yeah, to quote Greens Senator Kerry Nettle, "Tony Abbott keep your rosaries off my ovaries."
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Which is quite ironic since sex education would actually cut down on the occurrance of unwanted pregnancy and by extension, abortion.
there's just nothing better than a good jesuit educated catholic who thinks he has righteousness on his side.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes. Which is what makes me wonder what the motivation is. Sometimes, when I see things like this that do not make sense I can only conclude that it is as gue said, a power issue.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
amen!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I meant to but I became distracted by the US tax code and forgot.
I assume the elimination of sex education is religious or abstinance based.
There is talk on pro life websites about the birth control pill. In addition to its method of no ovulation, sometimes breakthrough ovulation still occures. But the pill still works because it does not allow a fertilized egg to implant in the uterus. This is also how the IUD, norplant, and depo-provera shot work. With fertilized eggs seemingly precious (despite that 50% of them don't implant anyway) they want to outlaw the pill and these methods.
Holy crap! Are you serious? To be honest I haven't really kept up with these issues, but I do remember hearing on triple j about the church being involved in the hotline, which I thought was disgraceful. I also heard (also on hack on triple j) some pretty awful horror stories about ru486, but it sounded like it was more the medical staff and counselors (or lack thereof) that were to blame, not the drug itself, which did what it was supposed to do. When you say birth control do you mean the contraceptive pill, morning after pill, or condoms, or all of the above?
Surely, surely, surely any movement by idiots to limit access to birth control or sex education in Australia would never get far. I like to think that as a society we are secular and sensible (and horny) enough not to allow that to get a toehold. I think the sex education I got at school was pretty good, but they could always do with more. At least I pretty well knew all the theory long before I got to put it into pratice, so to speak.
-C Addison
Of course it is alive. Sperm is alive, eggs are alive too. They are also human. Life is a continuous process. But it is not simply live tissue that makes an individual person. A beating heart is certainly alive and human, but we often transplant these into other individuals without confusion as to the identity of the patient when they recover.
Lets look at the other end of life. We don't keep a corpse without brain activity alive indefinately. This corpse is no different than an embryo. Applying the same standard to an embryo as we would apply to you and I if we had no brain activity we cannot be killed, only unplugged. The same way an embryo cannot be killed.
What it is that we value is not living tissue, but the unique personality of life that comes with brain function. So considering brain function as the mark of a developing person we are looking at no earlier than the 20th week of gestation.
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/155959.htm
This was my preferred option as an article but you gotta sign up to read it:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/308/5728/1557
I liked this article
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Sex-shop-to-shower-NSW-town-with-condomss/2005/03/31/1111862525172.html?oneclick=true
Although the comments from the pharmacy guild where a bit disturbing.
This article from the Age about RU486 also has some info about Tony's efforts with "pregnancy advice lines"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/sushi-das/mr-abbott-minister-for-meddling/2005/11/23/1132703249708.html
http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/s1246252.htm
I know that I read somewhere that since the ban on RU486 has been lifted there has been some talk that Tony has made if very clear to pharmaceutical companies that their PBS status could be affected if they participate in importing the drugs. I could have that not quite right Scott but the implication was that if it was imported into the country there would be consequences federally for other contracts. I'm still trying to find a link.
This one's about the pregnancy advice line and Centacare group.
Part of $51 million given by the government. One does have to wonder who else was funded and if that kind of cash was spent for this who missed out?
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1820241.htm
Ah here we go, Lifeline and FAMILY PLANNING NSW missed out! :rolleyes:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/helpline-furore-widens/2007/01/03/1167777154175.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200705/s1910636.htm
One of the benefits of RU486, even though I'm still not sure where I stand on the drug itself, is that in rural areas access to surgical abortion is limited. Along with family planning options. In most rural areas things are pretty crook from a medical stand point anyway. And there has been a lot of talk for a lot of years amongst the sexual health community regarding the inability of young men and women in particular to access effective birth control and pregnancy advice because of how small communities work. I know there was another young girl recently who had some appalling trouble regarding a termination in a country town. I'm just struggling to remember the circumstances so I can access an article.
The unfortunate thing about what is happening with regard to women's reproductive rights in this country and general sex education and birth control options is that it's a dripping tap type effort that the government has employed along with the interested church groups and right to life. They erode as quietly and stealthily as they can one little drip at a time, so that people don't notice so much the gaping hole that's beginning to appear.
I'm all for less abortion but not if it means people living with unwanted pregnancies. And the trouble with Tony is that he's a sneaky bastard with an agenda and unfortunately he has the power at this point.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Crikey. Ok, I'll have to do some homework. Not that I don't already have plenty of reasons not to vote for tony and his mates anyway.
There was a story last week about a young woman who rocked up late at night at the emergency department at Narrabri hospital in labour, and was turned away because there was no obstetrician on duty. She was told to drive herself to Moree, about three hours away, because they didn't have an ambulance to take her in. I don't know exact the details. I think she had a husband/partner with her, and they did end up driving to Moree. Pretty shocking. Maybe the lesson is don't get pregnant in a small country town. . .
-C Addison
Yeah, for all that the health care services are shite in the cities, I'd hate to be in the country. It's just appalling when things like that happen. Although there was that poor woman on the news last week that miscarried in the public toilet of one of the major city hospitals despite her and her husband pleading with the emergency room staff for hours for help. Poor bastards. Much and all as I love the country I can't believe that there isn't equal access to services and truth be told if you're in the country and you're sick, things aren't good. I'd like to see much more done in country areas when it comes to sexual health particularly if the provider's religious or ethical beliefs are able to dictate outcomes. How on earth one man or woman's beliefs are able to hold a whole community to ransom like that I'll never know. When it comes to health the current government has an appalling record and when it comes to sexual health they have a not so secret agenda. Either way, they've not performed well enough in my opinion. And I'd hate to see what them getting in at the next election would do to bolster their confidence. I'm sure we'll see some pretty unimaginable things go on if they do.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Safe for everyone but the baby.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Agreed. I don't even see it as completely a "woman's issue". Last time I checked it takes two people to make a baby, one of them being a man.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
:rolleyes: that old saw, heh?
how's the weather in bumfuck this week?
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
yeah, but the woman's body carries the pregnancy, therefore it's a woman's health and reproductive issue. you guys can grasp that, right?
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7