Japan vs Iraq

sponger

catefrances wrote:

may have meddled? the west has meddled in the middle east for so long they think of it as just something else to do on the weekend.
the west chose to stand by and support those same tyrants(and not just in the middle east) when it was of interest and value to them. so i dont want to hear any bullshit about how all of a sudden the west knows what the fuck it is doing in the middle east. and that it is benefitting the people of that region. i remember when saddam hussein was 'our' friend. i remember when the US simlutaneously armed and benefitted iran and iraq in that particular war. i remember when the US helped arm the mujahadeen against the soviets i remember when the west stood by while saddam gassed the kurds and did nothing about it.

and yes absolutely their distrust is justified. it is insulting to the people of the middle east that you suggest they dont know the difference. what is needed is guidance and support not rolling tanks, smart bombs and a holier than thou arrogance.

Again, you're not looking at it from their point of view. Do you really think these suicide bombers and their captains think to themselves, "Oh, I remember when they supported the gassing of the kurds," when they launch their attacks? Please...you're kidding yourself.

Do you understand the totalitarian state that exists in Iran? It's what the Iraqis have to look forward to when the Shia eventually take total control of Iraq. Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

From their point of view, it's a simple matter of arabs vs. the west, not some carefully analyzed assessment of the west's propensity to adversely affect their way of life.

sponger

LikeAnOcean wrote:

The big difference here is.. Iraq was a mess before we invaded.. Japan wasn't.

Again, totally different culture, circumstances. I don't think they can be compared.

Nice point, but in a completely different direction from your first point. Let me know next time you want to change the subject please.

LikeAnOcean

sponger wrote:

Nice point, but in a completely different direction from your first point. Let me know next time you want to change the subject please.

Change of subject??? I think I was pointing out all along how both situations are different. You're confusing me.

sponger

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Change of subject??? I think I was pointing out all along how both situations are different. You're confusing me.

You were approaching it from a cause standpoint and switched to an effect standpoint when the cause standpoint fell short of relevance.

catefrances

sponger wrote:

Again, you're not looking at it from their point of view. Do you really think these suicide bombers and their captains think to themselves, "Oh, I remember when they supported the gassing of the kurds," when they launch their attacks? Please...you're kidding yourself.

Do you understand the totalitarian state that exists in Iran? It's what the Iraqis have to look forward to when the Shia eventually take total control of Iraq. Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

From their point of view, it's a simple matter of arabs vs. the west, not some carefully analyzed assessment of the west's propensity to adversely affect their way of life.

oh please. :rolleyes:

yes i understand what is happening in iran. i remember the day they turfed that pussy shah's US supported arse out as well. you can not force your outside will on people who you think you know and understand and act as if you are doing them a favour. yes iran appears fucked up. but its just a more fundamentalist version of the patriarchial society we live here in the west. if the west were not so darn secular then you might see the parallels.

from their point of view a US occupation is worse that anything their 'own' people could visit upon them. you seem to be under the impression that their thinking skills are not as advanced as your own. you underestimate them.
what i think is more feasible is that they have the mindset that these westerners came in and fucked with iraq so we are going to fuck with them. did they ask for our help? did we offer them alternatives? there was a better, less violent way of getting rid of hussein than levelling the country.the US could have done it if they so desired. and sure the continued violence is a case of cutting off their nose to spite their face. but it is a reaction that should have been anticipated. we sit here and say what the fuck is wrong with these people? you have no idea how you yourself and the society in which you live would react given the same set of circumstances.

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

Right, compare that to how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East". When they have problems as serious as that within their own borders, then they need a scapegoat like Israel and the Jews on which to pin the blame.

Please explain to me how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East".
Your comment makes no sense to me.
I take it you believe that the Palestinians have been under a 40 year military occupation because they deserve to be.
I wonder if you viewed the French resistance and Jewish partisan groups across Europe during world war 2 as needing Germany as a scapegoat for all their own problems?

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

Of course not. They're not rational, civilized people like us. They're just savages.

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

Of course not. They're not rational, civilized people like us. They're just savages.

Wrong. They're rural. Please read the analogy in the second post of this thread.

lucylespian

Byrnzie wrote:

You mean that they should embrace their occupiers and accept America's benevolent intentions of improving the lives of Iraqis everywhere? Is this what Israel has been attempting to do by occupying Palestine? Do you think that they are hoping to improve the lives of Palestinians by stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, and killing their men, women and children indiscriminately?

If only these pesky Iraqis weren't so damn ungrateful, and were civilized enough to realize that we come with good intentions. If they had only just handed over their natural resources to us, and not attempted to defend themselves, then none of this carnage would now be occurring. They are obviously, innately barbarous by nature.

Yhis has nothign to do with Israel or Palestine, so please abandont eh hijack.
What I am sugesting they do is say........

"well fuck, our country has been flattened by theese arsehole Yanks. But hang on, they want to rebuild it. OK, we don't like what just happened, but lets make the most of a shit situation and see how we can improve it"

I was inspired to start this thread after reading the one on teh AET about how good Japanese cars are compared to US made, and how well teh JApanese economy and society in general rebiounded from a dismal end to WW2.
If you want to talk about resentment, don't forget that Japan actually suffered nuclear attacks on two major civilian targets. Compared to that, the Iraqis have nothing to complain aboot.
I am going to go as far as suggesting the Japanese have a superior culture and better moral fibre !!

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

Please explain to me how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East".
Your comment makes no sense to me.
I take it you believe that the Palestinians have been under a 40 year military occupation because they deserve to be.
I wonder if you viewed the French resistance and Jewish partisan groups across Europe during world war 2 as needing Germany as a scapegoat for all their own problems?

You mean to say you are not aware of history of the PLO? Yet you feel inclined to make a determination on recent Palestinian history?

Arafat and the PLO were the first to effectively organize the inter-tribal war that had been going on in Beruit, leading to that city's expedited path toward to the dismal state that it eventually became. Beruit is of course not in palestine, but Lebanese and Palestinian politics have historically been intertwined.

As for 40 years of occupation of palestine....you make it sound as though the israelis parachuted in with machine guns in hand, forcing its occupants to leave at gunpoint. You know that to not be the case.

catefrances

lucylespian wrote:

Yhis has nothign to do with Israel or Palestine, so please abandont eh hijack.
What I am sugesting they do is say........

"well fuck, our country has been flattened by theese arsehole Yanks. But hang on, they want to rebuild it. OK, we don't like what just happened, but lets make the most of a shit situation and see how we can improve it"

I was inspired to start this thread after reading the one on teh AET about how good Japanese cars are compared to US made, and how well teh JApanese economy and society in general rebiounded from a dismal end to WW2.
If you want to talk about resentment, don't forget that Japan actually suffered nuclear attacks on two major civilian targets. Compared to that, the Iraqis have nothing to complain aboot.
I am going to go as far as suggesting the Japanese have a superior culture and better moral fibre !!

OMFG!!! LMAO!!!
i would be furious if someone came into my home and flattened and it and then offered to rebuild it. especially considering it was not a given that my house needed to be flattened in the first place. is this like that vietnamese war saying, we had to destroy the village to save it.
it would take me some time to get over the vehemence i felt towards the marauders before i could even look at them let alone work with them.
and excuse me but but to say that the iraqis have nothing to complain about purely because the US deigned NOT to drop a couple of nukes on them is out of line. the entire country is fucked. as for your comment on superior culture and moral fibre i cant even address that right now. that is just so eurocentric its not funny. do you even know any middle eastern history lucy?

sponger

catefrances wrote:

OMFG!!! LMAO!!!
i would be furious if someone came into my home and flattened and it and then offered to rebuild it. especially considering it was not a given that my house needed to be flattened in the first place. is this like that vietnamese war saying, we had to destroy the village to save it.
it would take me some time to get over the vehemence i felt towards the marauders before i could even look at them let alone work with them.
and excuse me but but to say that the iraqis have nothing to complain about purely because the US deigned NOT to drop a couple of nukes on them is out of line. the entire country is fucked. as for your comment on superior culture and moral fibre i cant even address that right now. that is just so eurocentric its not funny. do you even know any middle eastern history lucy?

What is making you say that the entire country is fucked?

Byrnzie

lucylespian wrote:

"well fuck, our country has been flattened by theese arsehole Yanks. But hang on, they want to rebuild it. OK, we don't like what just happened, but lets make the most of a shit situation and see how we can improve it"

I am going to go as far as suggesting the Japanese have a superior culture and better moral fibre !!

Fine. I am going to go as far as to say that you are racist, whether you believe you are or not. I will go as far as to say that you are ignorant of Middle Eastern culture and politics. This is perfectly understandable given the constant daily attempted brainwashing we receive by our biased and self serving media.

And the Americans didn't rebuild Japan. The Japanese rebuilt Japan. They didn't just lay down their arms and invite the Americans in as friends and benefactors because of some superior moral fibre.

My analogy with Palestine/Israel was obvious.
We are now looking at Palestinian in-fighting, and as with Iraq, I hear a lot of people now talking about the problems of the Middle east being due to some innate barbarous/uncivilized/unmoral quaility. I find it a tad disgusting really.

**For the benefit of the mods. Just in case there's any confusion**:

rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

lucylespian

catefrances wrote:

OMFG!!! LMAO!!!
i would be furious if someone came into my home and flattened and it and then offered to rebuild it. especially considering it was not a given that my house needed to be flattened in the first place. is this like that vietnamese war saying, we had to destroy the village to save it.
it would take me some time to get over the vehemence i felt towards the marauders before i could even look at them let alone work with them.
and excuse me but but to say that the iraqis have nothing to complain about purely because the US deigned NOT to drop a couple of nukes on them is out of line. the entire country is fucked. as for your comment on superior culture and moral fibre i cant even address that right now. that is just so eurocentric its not funny. do you even know any middle eastern history lucy?

Yeah, I know plenty of history, but how is praising the Japanese eurocentric ??

Thw whole of Japan was fucked too. HAve you ever seen pics fmro that time. Iwent to teh war museum in Canberra once, and saw stuff from Hiroshima. It was chilling !!

I unnderstaand that the Iraqis were pissed, but it's time to get over that. The Yanks were pissed after 9/11 too, but you seem to think they should be over that now.
I didn't say they should be grateful, just that further violence against their own people is not helpful and that getting involved inragther than hinderding reconstruction might be helpful

catefrances

sponger wrote:

What is making you say that the entire country is fucked?

superfluous hyperbole.

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

As for 40 years of occupation of palestine....you make it sound as though the israelis parachuted in with machine guns in hand, forcing its occupants to leave at gunpoint. You know that to not be the case.

No. They came with gifts of bread and flowers.

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

Fine. I am going to go as far as to say that you are racist, whether you believe you are or not. I will go as far as to say that you are ignorant of Middle Eastern culture and politics. This is perfectly understandable given the constant daily attempted brainwashing we receive by our biased and self serving media.

Please give an example of an aspect of middle eastern culture/politics that proves otherwise. Point in fact is that an understanding of middle-eastern culture politics would only support said "racism" and "ignorance".

And the Americans didn't rebuild Japan. The Japanese rebuilt Japan. They didn't just lay down their arms and invite the Americans in as friends and benefactors because of some superior moral fibre.

Japan rebuilt Japan with US financing. The US also eliminated the mini-business "factions" that existed prior to the war. This enabled large industry to exist without being eroded from within through internal power struggles as had occurred prior to the war.

The new factories that were built with US dollars consisted of the most modern production and tooling equipment, which enabled Japan to build superior cars and cameras. Had Japan still had the pre-wwII business systems and factories, it would never have become as economically successful as it became. That is, we wouldn't be driving toyotas and hondas.

My analogy with Palestine/Israel was obvious.
We are now looking at Palestinian in-fighting, and as with Iraq, I hear a lot of people now talking about the problems of the Middle east being due to some innate barbarous/uncivilized/unmoral quaility. I find it a tad disgusting really.

What is disgusting is your inability to really counter any of it.

catefrances

lucylespian wrote:

Yeah, I know plenty of history, but how is praising the Japanese eurocentric ??

Thw whole of Japan was fucked too. HAve you ever seen pics fmro that time. Iwent to teh war museum in Canberra once, and saw stuff from Hiroshima. It was chilling !!

I unnderstaand that the Iraqis were pissed, but it's time to get over that. The Yanks were pissed after 9/11 too, but you seem to think they should be over that now.
I didn't say they should be grateful, just that further violence against their own people is not helpful and that getting involved inragther than hinderding reconstruction might be helpful

you are evaluating culture from a eurocentric point of view. you see japan as a success. why is that? because of the fabulous decision to drop nukes on them and the resultant 'recovery.'

you went to the war museum once? well congratulations.

how long does it take to get over being invaded. when should one start to feel grateful for such a fantastic opportuntity? when have i ever said the americans should be over 9/11. jesus christ, i'm not even over 9/11 and im not even american. so i can only imagine what it is like for those directly affected.

its not 'their own' people. why are you seeing iraqis, or the middle east for that matter, has one homogenous blob? the borders defined in the middle east were drawn without regard to traditional or tribal alliances. they were drawn purely for the benefit of the imperialists.

Kann

lucylespian wrote:

Yhis has nothign to do with Israel or Palestine, so please abandont eh hijack.
What I am sugesting they do is say........

"well fuck, our country has been flattened by theese arsehole Yanks. But hang on, they want to rebuild it. OK, we don't like what just happened, but lets make the most of a shit situation and see how we can improve it"

I was inspired to start this thread after reading the one on teh AET about how good Japanese cars are compared to US made, and how well teh JApanese economy and society in general rebiounded from a dismal end to WW2.
If you want to talk about resentment, don't forget that Japan actually suffered nuclear attacks on two major civilian targets. Compared to that, the Iraqis have nothing to complain aboot.
I am going to go as far as suggesting the Japanese have a superior culture and better moral fibre !!

I think one of the major differences between Japan and Iraq (appart from the culture (and let's be honest you're thinking religion) and the food) : Japan did not have neighbouring countries willing to fuck things up. Iraq has Iran and Syria very much happy to make sure tension stays fierce there. I stated in another thread that I think that this war benefits everyone around except the US and that I'm sure most of these countries make sure that the chaos continues. That is one big difference.
edit : so just to be clear thats :
japan today = $us + japanese will
iraq today = $us + usbombs + iranbombs + syriabombs + crazy people who come from all the surrounding countries + strong neighbouring influence + lots of oil no one really controls + iraqi will

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

Please give an example of an aspect of middle eastern culture/politics that proves otherwise.

You're asking me to give an example of an aspect of middle eastern culture which proves why we shouldn't be racist towards them?
No. I'll just let your words speak for themselves instead and let everyone who reads them draw their own conclusions.

sponger wrote:

Point in fact is that an understanding of middle-eastern culture politics would only support said "racism" and "ignorance".

What is disgusting is your inability to really counter any of it.

So you're saying that it's disgusting that I have failed to counter your racism? O.k, fine. I've failed.
Somehow though, I don't care what you think. In the big scheme of things your personal prejudices seem somewhat irrelevant.