Japan vs Iraq

lucylespian

Both of these countries were flattened by US military action.

Both were offered reconstruction.

One took that opportunity and what was left of their national pride and rebuilt themselves into a dominant economic force.

The other has not, preferring to destroy any reconstruction efforts, and to continue to bomb and murder their fellow citizens.

Who owns the blame ???

sponger

Eh, it reminds me of this documentary I saw about some backwoods jury who convicted a doctor of malpractice because it was exactly the opposite of what "expert" testimony had recommended they do.

One of the jurors after the trial said, "Those city folk thought they could come here and make fools out of us with their technical explanations."

Every single person in that jury was so distrustful of non-rural people that they purposely decided in the opposite of what "city-folk" recommended, regardless of the professional and academic backgrounds of said city folk.

A law in that state had to be created just to stop that type of thing from happening in the future. I forgot which state it was.

catefrances

please explain to me how the two cases are comparable.

Byrnzie

lucylespian wrote:

Who owns the blame ???

The British and American Governments are to blame. That was easy.

sponger

catefrances wrote:

please explain to me how the two cases are comparable.

The people of Iraq and its surrounding nations are so distrustful of the great white satan that they take comfort in knowing that, even when their own people are dying by the droves in suicide bombings perpetrated by their fellow arabs, at least it is in defiance of the west.

lucylespian

sponger wrote:

The people of Iraq and its surrounding nations are so distrustful of the great white satan that they take comfort in knowing that, even when their own people are dying by the droves in suicide bombings perpetrated by their fellow arabs, at least it is in defiance of the west.

So, they are happy to continue cutting off their noses to spite their faces ??

lucylespian

Byrnzie wrote:

The British and American Governments are to blame. That was easy.

OK, so now tell me who owns the problem ??

catefrances

sponger wrote:

The people of Iraq and its surrounding nations are so distrustful of the great white satan that they take comfort in knowing that, even when their own people are dying by the droves in suicide bombings perpetrated by their fellow arabs, at least it is in defiance of the west.

well i cant imagine WHY they would be so distrustful, can you? :rolleyes:


liar liar iraq's on fire.

sponger

lucylespian wrote:

So, they are happy to continue cutting off their noses to spite their faces ??

Wouldn't you if you believed that it was in the interest of chasing out the devil?

catefrances

lucylespian wrote:

OK, so now tell me who owns the problem ??

whoever invaded iraq owns the problem.

who break it you own it.

sponger

catefrances wrote:

well i cant imagine WHY they would be so distrustful, can you? :rolleyes:


liar liar iraq's on fire.

It's all about priorities, catefrances. The west may have meddled in arab affairs in the name of self-interest, but we're talking about a people who have lived with exponentially greater levels of oppression with hardly a whimper.

By insinuating that their distrust is justified, you assume that they're even capable of knowing the difference. History has shown that they are not.

lucylespian

catefrances wrote:

whoever invaded iraq owns the problem.

who break it you own it.

So, you never choose to fix anything broken in your home, regardless of who broke it ???

LikeAnOcean

lucylespian wrote:

Both of these countries were flattened by US military action.

Both were offered reconstruction.

One took that opportunity and what was left of their national pride and rebuilt themselves into a dominant economic force.

The other has not, preferring to destroy any reconstruction efforts, and to continue to bomb and murder their fellow citizens.

Who owns the blame ???

Am I missing something.. did Saddams army join forces with the Nazi's and bomb Pearl Harbor in an effort to rule the world???

Not even a close comparison. This thread is comical.

sponger

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Am I missing something.. did Saddams army join forces with the Nazi's and bomb Pearl Harbor in an effort to rule the world???

Not even a close comparison. This thread is comical.

Did the people of Japan have any real control over the decisions of their leaders and generals?

This thread is about how the people of these nations reacted to their circumstances, not how they ended up in those circumstances.

lucylespian

sponger wrote:

Wouldn't you if you believed that it was in the interest of chasing out the devil?

Except that the best way to get rid of the Devil is to stop blowing shit up.

Byrnzie

lucylespian wrote:

OK, so now tell me who owns the problem ??

The British and American Governments own the problem. Even if they now decide to pull out of Iraq, the problem won't leave them alone.

sponger

lucylespian wrote:

Except that the best way to get rid of the Devil is to stop blowing shit up.

Not necessarily. A reduction in violence would speed up western influence in iraqi business and culture.

Byrnzie

lucylespian wrote:

Except that the best way to get rid of the Devil is to stop blowing shit up.

You mean that they should embrace their occupiers and accept America's benevolent intentions of improving the lives of Iraqis everywhere? Is this what Israel has been attempting to do by occupying Palestine? Do you think that they are hoping to improve the lives of Palestinians by stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, and killing their men, women and children indiscriminately?

If only these pesky Iraqis weren't so damn ungrateful, and were civilized enough to realize that we come with good intentions. If they had only just handed over their natural resources to us, and not attempted to defend themselves, then none of this carnage would now be occurring. They are obviously, innately barbarous by nature.

catefrances

sponger wrote:

It's all about priorities, catefrances. The west may have meddled in arab affairs in the name of self-interest, but we're talking about a people who have lived with exponentially greater levels of oppression with hardly a whimper.

By insinuating that their distrust is justified, you assume that they're even capable of knowing the difference. History has shown that they are not.

may have meddled? the west has meddled in the middle east for so long they think of it as just something else to do on the weekend.
the west chose to stand by and support those same tyrants(and not just in the middle east) when it was of interest and value to them. so i dont want to hear any bullshit about how all of a sudden the west knows what the fuck it is doing in the middle east. and that it is benefitting the people of that region. i remember when saddam hussein was 'our' friend. i remember when the US simlutaneously armed and benefitted iran and iraq in that particular war. i remember when the US helped arm the mujahadeen against the soviets i remember when the west stood by while saddam gassed the kurds and did nothing about it.

and yes absolutely their distrust is justified. it is insulting to the people of the middle east that you suggest they dont know the difference. what is needed is guidance and support not rolling tanks, smart bombs and a holier than thou arrogance.

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

You mean that they should embrace their occupiers and accept America's benevolent intentions of improving the lives of Iraqis everywhere? Is this what Israel has been attempting to do by occupying Palestine? Do you think that they are hoping to improve the lives of Palestinians by stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, and killing their men, women and children indiscriminately?

If only these pesky Iraqis weren't so damn ungrateful, and were civilized enough to realize that we come with good intentions. If they had only just handed over their natural resources to us, and not attempted to defend themselves, then none of this carnage would now be occurring. They are obviously, innately barbarous by nature.

Right, compare that to how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East". When they have problems as serious as that within their own borders, then they need a scapegoat like Israel and the Jews on which to pin the blame.

LikeAnOcean

sponger wrote:

Did the people of Japan have any real control over the decisions of their leaders and generals?

This thread is about how the people of these nations reacted to their circumstances, not how they ended up in those circumstances.

The big difference here is.. Iraq was a mess before we invaded.. Japan wasn't.

Again, totally different culture, circumstances. I don't think they can be compared.

sponger

catefrances wrote:

may have meddled? the west has meddled in the middle east for so long they think of it as just something else to do on the weekend.
the west chose to stand by and support those same tyrants(and not just in the middle east) when it was of interest and value to them. so i dont want to hear any bullshit about how all of a sudden the west knows what the fuck it is doing in the middle east. and that it is benefitting the people of that region. i remember when saddam hussein was 'our' friend. i remember when the US simlutaneously armed and benefitted iran and iraq in that particular war. i remember when the US helped arm the mujahadeen against the soviets i remember when the west stood by while saddam gassed the kurds and did nothing about it.

and yes absolutely their distrust is justified. it is insulting to the people of the middle east that you suggest they dont know the difference. what is needed is guidance and support not rolling tanks, smart bombs and a holier than thou arrogance.

Again, you're not looking at it from their point of view. Do you really think these suicide bombers and their captains think to themselves, "Oh, I remember when they supported the gassing of the kurds," when they launch their attacks? Please...you're kidding yourself.

Do you understand the totalitarian state that exists in Iran? It's what the Iraqis have to look forward to when the Shia eventually take total control of Iraq. Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

From their point of view, it's a simple matter of arabs vs. the west, not some carefully analyzed assessment of the west's propensity to adversely affect their way of life.

sponger

LikeAnOcean wrote:

The big difference here is.. Iraq was a mess before we invaded.. Japan wasn't.

Again, totally different culture, circumstances. I don't think they can be compared.

Nice point, but in a completely different direction from your first point. Let me know next time you want to change the subject please.

LikeAnOcean

sponger wrote:

Nice point, but in a completely different direction from your first point. Let me know next time you want to change the subject please.

Change of subject??? I think I was pointing out all along how both situations are different. You're confusing me.

sponger

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Change of subject??? I think I was pointing out all along how both situations are different. You're confusing me.

You were approaching it from a cause standpoint and switched to an effect standpoint when the cause standpoint fell short of relevance.

catefrances

sponger wrote:

Again, you're not looking at it from their point of view. Do you really think these suicide bombers and their captains think to themselves, "Oh, I remember when they supported the gassing of the kurds," when they launch their attacks? Please...you're kidding yourself.

Do you understand the totalitarian state that exists in Iran? It's what the Iraqis have to look forward to when the Shia eventually take total control of Iraq. Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

From their point of view, it's a simple matter of arabs vs. the west, not some carefully analyzed assessment of the west's propensity to adversely affect their way of life.

oh please. :rolleyes:

yes i understand what is happening in iran. i remember the day they turfed that pussy shah's US supported arse out as well. you can not force your outside will on people who you think you know and understand and act as if you are doing them a favour. yes iran appears fucked up. but its just a more fundamentalist version of the patriarchial society we live here in the west. if the west were not so darn secular then you might see the parallels.

from their point of view a US occupation is worse that anything their 'own' people could visit upon them. you seem to be under the impression that their thinking skills are not as advanced as your own. you underestimate them.
what i think is more feasible is that they have the mindset that these westerners came in and fucked with iraq so we are going to fuck with them. did they ask for our help? did we offer them alternatives? there was a better, less violent way of getting rid of hussein than levelling the country.the US could have done it if they so desired. and sure the continued violence is a case of cutting off their nose to spite their face. but it is a reaction that should have been anticipated. we sit here and say what the fuck is wrong with these people? you have no idea how you yourself and the society in which you live would react given the same set of circumstances.

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

Right, compare that to how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East". When they have problems as serious as that within their own borders, then they need a scapegoat like Israel and the Jews on which to pin the blame.

Please explain to me how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East".
Your comment makes no sense to me.
I take it you believe that the Palestinians have been under a 40 year military occupation because they deserve to be.
I wonder if you viewed the French resistance and Jewish partisan groups across Europe during world war 2 as needing Germany as a scapegoat for all their own problems?

Byrnzie

sponger wrote:

Do you honestly believe that Iraqis can rationally deduce that a US occupation would be worse?

Of course not. They're not rational, civilized people like us. They're just savages.

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

Of course not. They're not rational, civilized people like us. They're just savages.

Wrong. They're rural. Please read the analogy in the second post of this thread.

lucylespian

Byrnzie wrote:

You mean that they should embrace their occupiers and accept America's benevolent intentions of improving the lives of Iraqis everywhere? Is this what Israel has been attempting to do by occupying Palestine? Do you think that they are hoping to improve the lives of Palestinians by stealing their land, bulldozing their homes, and killing their men, women and children indiscriminately?

If only these pesky Iraqis weren't so damn ungrateful, and were civilized enough to realize that we come with good intentions. If they had only just handed over their natural resources to us, and not attempted to defend themselves, then none of this carnage would now be occurring. They are obviously, innately barbarous by nature.

Yhis has nothign to do with Israel or Palestine, so please abandont eh hijack.
What I am sugesting they do is say........

"well fuck, our country has been flattened by theese arsehole Yanks. But hang on, they want to rebuild it. OK, we don't like what just happened, but lets make the most of a shit situation and see how we can improve it"

I was inspired to start this thread after reading the one on teh AET about how good Japanese cars are compared to US made, and how well teh JApanese economy and society in general rebiounded from a dismal end to WW2.
If you want to talk about resentment, don't forget that Japan actually suffered nuclear attacks on two major civilian targets. Compared to that, the Iraqis have nothing to complain aboot.
I am going to go as far as suggesting the Japanese have a superior culture and better moral fibre !!

sponger

Byrnzie wrote:

Please explain to me how Arafat and the PLO pretty much single-handedly ensured the virtual destruction of what was once the "Switzerland of the Middle-East".
Your comment makes no sense to me.
I take it you believe that the Palestinians have been under a 40 year military occupation because they deserve to be.
I wonder if you viewed the French resistance and Jewish partisan groups across Europe during world war 2 as needing Germany as a scapegoat for all their own problems?

You mean to say you are not aware of history of the PLO? Yet you feel inclined to make a determination on recent Palestinian history?

Arafat and the PLO were the first to effectively organize the inter-tribal war that had been going on in Beruit, leading to that city's expedited path toward to the dismal state that it eventually became. Beruit is of course not in palestine, but Lebanese and Palestinian politics have historically been intertwined.

As for 40 years of occupation of palestine....you make it sound as though the israelis parachuted in with machine guns in hand, forcing its occupants to leave at gunpoint. You know that to not be the case.