but will you? if you do there was something in your past that helped you make that choice.....can see it now.....Jan 15th and we get that rare blast of cold air...and my buddy deadnothingbetter say's..." I'll show that bastard on PJ board...I'm wearing a T-Shirt today, I'm in control" well not really....my memory to you....the past had you freeze you butt off.
of course i will, if i love the cold weather i will. see, it can go like this... one day it's cold and i say, "ooh it's chilly... let me get a coat." next day it's cold again then i say, "oooh it's still chilly.... i'm not wearing a coat this time. i love this weather." it's all choice.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
yeah, exactly... everything is random to me, so i enjoy it's randomness... or try my best. i'll only go as far to say that everything that happens in life can work for a good cause... no matter what. but to say that everything is predetermined for me is too far out.
i don't know what you mean by the stark reply's to my posts... you mean the one you said about why i believe in god??? the weird one that said, "it's okay... it's okayyayyya"
yea that was the one...I was pretty condescending...which wasn't necessary...course my boss was pissing me off and then I see a religious post and unload.....not justifiably (this a word?)
I've not read or done any research on my position and should....can maybe kinda see if one could get into a place of blocking out all inputs, not that I know if and how that's acheived, maybe there's a possibility of getting to now....but as soon as you start thinking.....BAM past.
It's actually not about blocking the inputs. It's about focussing on what's behind them. An analogy is in looking at the sky. Our thoughts are like clouds, floating in and out. The blue of the sky is the background awareness that our thoughts cross. When we focus on the wholeness, and the blue of the sky, we're still aware of the clouds. We don't consider ourselves the clouds, though.
Some people meditate for years to learn to stay in such states. I have meditated for years, and I've learned to do it in day to day--where I don't identify with my thoughts. And I just exist in awareness. I go in and out of these states. I constantly develop my discipline to stay in such states for longer and longer periods of time.
Most people today think they ARE their thoughts. And it's just not true. We are beings. We are bodies. We are an energy base that the thoughts arise from. We have sensations all throughout our bodies. We're buzzing with life energy. Our thoughts are merely the running commentary of what is. What is exists like the sky beyond the clouds (our thoughts).
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
yea that was the one...I was pretty condescending...which wasn't necessary...course my boss was pissing me off and then I see a religious post and unload.....not justifiably (this a word?)
well, all i can say is, "it' okay... it's okayyyay... it's okayyayayyay" cause afterall i came back with a good response
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I'm reading a lot of stuff here that just doesn't make any sense.
Physics is not random. There is nothing truly random. A coin-toss is not random, nor is the tiniest quantum fluctuation. Besides, randomness isn't a problem for fate.
"We" or "You" are a pack of neurons (Francis Crick). You aren't in a position to move the universe, you are subject to the laws of the universe and the complex interaction of nerve cells.
There are many ways to look at fate/destiny. Keep at it though.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
well this thread is certainly interesting for conversational purposes, but people should cool it trying to 'prove' this one way or the other. it's like asking 'is love at first sight real?' purely subjective.
yeah, people are subjected to the laws and restrictions of their environment, but peoples' environment is also subject to changes and effects as a result of actions made by the people. as insignificant and minute as we all are (as individuals AND as a whole), we still choose. and choice may very well be affected by past experiences, but i don't think that qualifies these choices to be referred to as 'fate,' but just choices that are being made because of memories of choices made in the past that achieved a postive result. it seems just as likely to me that life is a tale told by an idiot, in which we're all running around and bumping into eachother, as it does there is some cosmic force directing us all. i mean, look at the mess of a world we live in...would some greater force and forger of paths seriously be so bad at leading us all along? lol
Do you see the way that tree bends?
Does it inspire?
Leaning out to catch the sun's rays...
A lesson to be applied.
Best night of my life. . .
Noblesville, IN 06-22-03.
well this thread is certainly interesting for conversational purposes, but people should cool it trying to 'prove' this one way or the other. it's like asking 'is love at first sight real?' purely subjective.
yeah, people are subjected to the laws and restrictions of their environment, but peoples' environment is also subject to changes and effects as a result of actions made by the people. as insignificant and minute as we all are (as individuals AND as a whole), we still choose. and choice may very well be affected by past experiences, but i don't think that qualifies these choices to be referred to as 'fate,' but just choices that are being made because of memories of choices made in the past that achieved a postive result. it seems just as likely to me that life is a tale told by an idiot, in which we're all running around and bumping into eachother, as it does there is some cosmic force directing us all. i mean, look at the mess of a world we live in...would some greater force and forger of paths seriously be so bad at leading us all along? lol
"Love at first sight" is not real. It's exposed by biochemistry as being "Lust at first sight". Love is accrued over a lot of time together, usually initiated by lust. Sex helps a lot in building "Love" because it produces a lot of norepinephrine and oxytocin in the brain.
The "cosmic force" is none other than..... a set of laws governing reality. It has no concern or even knowledge of human existance. It's not a human-like thing, it's a rock-like thing, in that it is not conscious. Humans tend to anthropomorphize everything, that is, apply human characteristics to things which are not human, and that is a human fallacy. If you don't imagine the universe as being conscious, but rather, a set of laws governing reality, then the current state of the world is no surprise.
How we choose to interact with our environments and even which environments we choose to be in, is very much determined by our past experiences. But not only that, it's determined by the physical interaction of nerve cells in the brain, which may or may not happen to include all past experiences. The brain is not a simple sponge that soaks up information and spits out the best possible solutions, it's very prone to bad information and fallacious inference. I'm sure this is evident by the vast differences of opinion on very many topics.
The scientific method is the best method of determining what is reality. If you follow the scientific method to this end, you will see that the best hypothesis given the available information is fate/destiny. If you study the alternative and attempt to quantify it and explain it, you will fail. I've read a lot of attempts at quantifying free-will, and none satisfactorily meet any standards. Of course, it's easy to introspect and say from experience whatever it is you want to believe, you probably want to believe it due to your experiences to begin with. That's why we have statistical studies and we group them together to gather even more statistical information. If one person says something, its not a good reason to believe it, so why is your statements truer than the next? That's why we have science.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm reading a lot of stuff here that just doesn't make any sense.
Physics is not random. There is nothing truly random. A coin-toss is not random, nor is the tiniest quantum fluctuation. Besides, randomness isn't a problem for fate.
"We" or "You" are a pack of neurons (Francis Crick). You aren't in a position to move the universe, you are subject to the laws of the universe and the complex interaction of nerve cells.
There are many ways to look at fate/destiny. Keep at it though.
did the universe decide that i should sleep with my clothes off?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
did the universe decide that i should sleep with my clothes off?
"Decide" implies intent, forethought and rationale. Who says the universe has any of those things? If you view the "initial configuration" of the universe as not being conscious or designed nor intended, but rather necessary, then no decision was ever made, it's simply what had to happen.
If two hydrogen atoms only fuse at 0.007 microns or whatever, then it would seem that 0.007 is a matter-of-fact, what had to happen. There is no room for it to be 0.006 or 0.008. Necessarily, it is 0.007. It's not unimaginable to think that hydrogen it's self is a necessity from which all other atomic particles necessarily spawned. What could be an alternative to hydrogen? Does it work as well, or does it fall apart? It could even be that quantum behaviour gave rise to physical reality in the same way evolution gave rise to species. Trial and error with a methodological twist. If I understand correctly, an atom is affected by it's neighbours, that is, atoms are influenced by the atoms around them. Perhaps if one atom stumbles upon a code that works, the others inherit the behaviour. So, right down to the quantum reality, or even smaller, the finest substrate of reality, if not infinity, could be a system of necessity. All things come to be, simply because they work. Ghosts and the like may not actually work in our reality, they seem to violate the basic laws of nature. Anything that could exist probably has or will at one point via the natural evolution of the universe.
In that perspective, you may have slept naked out of necessity, and nothing decided it. As far as I see, it's the only way of explaining how anything could evolve from relatively nothing. Consciousness, intent and the like are extremely complicated phenomena, not the kind of basic thing that is self-explanatory.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
"Decide" implies intent, forethought and rationale. Who says the universe has any of those things? If you view the "initial configuration" of the universe as not being conscious or designed nor intended, but rather necessary, then no decision was ever made, it's simply what had to happen.
If two hydrogen atoms only fuse at 0.007 microns or whatever, then it would seem that 0.007 is a matter-of-fact, what had to happen. There is no room for it to be 0.006 or 0.008. Necessarily, it is 0.007. It's not unimaginable to think that hydrogen it's self is a necessity from which all other atomic particles necessarily spawned. What could be an alternative to hydrogen? Does it work as well, or does it fall apart? It could even be that quantum behaviour gave rise to physical reality in the same way evolution gave rise to species. Trial and error with a methodological twist. If I understand correctly, an atom is affected by it's neighbours, that is, atoms are influenced by the atoms around them. Perhaps if one atom stumbles upon a code that works, the others inherit the behaviour. So, right down to the quantum reality, or even smaller, the finest substrate of reality, if not infinity, could be a system of necessity. All things come to be, simply because they work. Ghosts and the like may not actually work in our reality, they seem to violate the basic laws of nature. Anything that could exist probably has or will at one point via the natural evolution of the universe.
In that perspective, you may have slept naked out of necessity, and nothing decided it. As far as I see, it's the only way of explaining how anything could evolve from relatively nothing. Consciousness, intent and the like are extremely complicated phenomena, not the kind of basic thing that is self-explanatory.
so, help me out here, did i have a choice or not? cos the way i see it the hydrogen atoms have nothing in relation to me sleeping naked in my bed..... but i did use intent, forethought and rationale when i slept with my clothes off.
except of course, when i fart.... now then i can agree that i didn't have a choice
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
did the universe decide that i should sleep with my clothes off?
The universe gave you all the potentials and gave you yourself and sense of separateness from the universe. And you made the choice for yourself on behalf of the universe. It's called your free will. Only you choose. The universe gives you that absolute freedom. It's wonderful.
(that is given you actually did/do sleep with your clothes off)
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The universe gave you all the potentials and gave you yourself and sense of separateness from the universe. And you made the choice for yourself on behalf of the universe. It's called your free will. Only you choose. The universe gives you that absolute freedom. It's wonderful.
(that is given you actually did/do sleep with your clothes off)
yes, i know. explain that to ahnimus
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I'm reading a lot of stuff here that just doesn't make any sense.
Physics is not random. There is nothing truly random. A coin-toss is not random, nor is the tiniest quantum fluctuation. Besides, randomness isn't a problem for fate.
"We" or "You" are a pack of neurons (Francis Crick). You aren't in a position to move the universe, you are subject to the laws of the universe and the complex interaction of nerve cells.
There are many ways to look at fate/destiny. Keep at it though.
Yeah....same thing I was thinking.
Some people think they have choice when nothing that they are is from personal choice. Not a single cell.
There are confines and limits and set laws to how everything exists. Nothing is or can be pre-chosen ahead of time....therefore nothing can truly be chosen afterwards.
Some might think they can...but then they are zoomed too far in looking at the particulars, and applying it outwards (erroneously) as universal.
It doesn't work that way....it's top down.
dem don't know...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I used to think, like Bu, that destiny/fate was the talk of astrologers and mystics. But, short answer is, Yes I do believe in fate. How can one not without incorporating a skyhook into their beliefs?
A skyhook as coined by Daniel Dennett, is something with basically no foundation. Religion is a skyhook, because it supposes a creator with no cause, causelessness. If all things have a cause, and no skyhooks, then fate must be true.....
Well ryan, I believe in fate/destiny probably more so than you and less than the average person. Well I mean that I would use fate as an explaination probably more than you would, but less than the average person. I think many things happen in this world that can be scientifically explained using maths and physics or other known formulas and whilst they may appear to be fate/destiny they are able to be quantified. But I also believe that in order for some things to "just happen" or be fated, so many things must come in to play and be in "alignment", so many coincidences and happenstances that it doesn't seem possible that it's just a series of random events that came together to create "fate" and explaining it by some scientific equation just doesn't seem to cut it either. I am open to the possibility of fate/destiny probably moreso fate than destiny. If an event happens in my life that I cannot explain, then I would look to science and the known and if that didn't provide adequate answer then I'm happy to settle with fate.
What I really wanted to say though is one thing I do believe in is Skyhooks! Because without Skyhooks I wouldn't be who I am. I think everyone should incorporate some Skyhooks into their beliefs.
It would make the world a much better place!
Think this one is a good place to start!
Ego Is Not A Dirty Word
If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight
If I did not have an ego I might not think that I was right
If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed
If you did not have an ego you'd just be like the rest
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Don't you believe what you've seen or heard
If Jesus had an ego he'd still be alive today
And if Nixon had no ego he might not be in decay
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
Some people keep their egos in a bottom drawer
A fridge full of Leonard Cohen
Have to get drunk just to walk out the door
Stay drunk to keep on goin'
So if you got an ego
You better keep it in good shape
Exercise it daily
And get it down on tape
but i love how you worked skyhooks into the debate.
no, i do not believe in fate. fate intimates that we have no choice in future events. i believe we do. the choices we make NOW determines what happens in our future. if you're not prepared to act then you have no chance of getting what you want, let alone what you need. is laziness or indecision an agent of fate? i think not.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Some people think they have choice when nothing that they are is from personal choice. Not a single cell.
There are confines and limits and set laws to how everything exists. Nothing is or can be pre-chosen ahead of time....therefore nothing can truly be chosen afterwards.
Some might think they can...but then they are zoomed too far in looking at the particulars, and applying it outwards (erroneously) as universal.
It doesn't work that way....it's top down.
dem don't know...
a fat man. not his choice he's fat.... there are confines and limits and sets of laws to show that he ended up fat. (but what if he had a choice not to eat?)
which brings me to the next phase... he looses weight. you could say that the laws, limits and confines of life chose for him to get in shape..... that makes no sense
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
a fat man. not his choice he's fat.... there are confines and limits and sets of laws to show that he ended up fat. (but what if he had a choice not to eat?)
which brings me to the next phase... he looses weight. you could say that the laws, limits and confines of life chose for him to get in shape..... that makes no sense
Genetics??????? hello?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
what???!?!?!?!? genetics has nothing to do with this. what's even funnier is you follow it with a "hello?" as if there's something obvious that i'm missing here.
yeah, he's fat, like a diabetic person who is diabetic because of genetics, i understand that. but then the fat guy looses weight (becuase he decides to do so, mind you)... and gets in shape. what? are his muscles also a product of his genetics? i thought he inherited diabetes and obesity from his genes, not muscles.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
fate or destiny ; your going up the highway. your car over heats , you have to pull over .your pissing a fit because you are inconvenience by this . your cools down and you're on your way .you get up the road about 1/2 a mile and there is an Accident with fatalities .so is this fate or was it your destiny to make it off the highway to were ever you where going ?
fate or destiny ; your going up the highway. your car over heats , you have to pull over .your pissing a fit because you are inconvenience by this . your cools down and you're on your way .you get up the road about 1/2 a mile and there is an Accident with fatalities .so is this fate or was it your destiny to make it off the highway to were ever you where going ?
pure coincidence.... if something else is controlling over it then, man, whoever's doing that must've really hated new orleans and the thousands that died there.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
no, i do not believe in fate. fate intimates that we have no choice in future events. i believe we do. the choices we make NOW determines what happens in our future. if you're not prepared to act then you have no chance of getting what you want, let alone what you need. is laziness or indecision an agent of fate? i think not.
Ok but what about seemingly random events? Isn't life what happens when you're busy making other plans? Sure we make choices about the future and our lives in general but sometimes things happen that have nothing to do with us making choices, sometimes things happen because of other people's choices and sometimes things just happen. Let us not forget "Shit Happens".
what???!?!?!?!? genetics has nothing to do with this. what's even funnier is you follow it with a "hello?" as if there's something obvious that i'm missing here.
yeah, he's fat, like a diabetic person who is diabetic because of genetics, i understand that. but then the fat guy looses weight (becuase he decides to do so, mind you)... and gets in shape. what? are his muscles also a product of his genetics? i thought he inherited diabetes and obesity from his genes, not muscles.
Your question seems to make more sense to you perhaps explain what you mean better.
We gain and lose weight according to the length of our large intestine ...which is indeed genetics.
Body type is also genetics....(ecto, meso, endo) i.e. skeletal build and muscle density.
Are you even serious?
ask a real question...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Your question seems to make more sense to you perhaps explain what you mean better.
We gain and lose weight according to the length of our large intestine ...which is indeed genetics.
Body type is also genetics....(ecto, meso, endo) i.e. skeletal build and muscle density.
Are you even serious?
ask a real question...
are you serious!?
i UNDERSTAND that everything inside nature works in such ways as it was designed. whether by nature or by a creator, all i know is that everything works and functions as it has already been "predetermined"... i understand that. what i don't understand is how is that defaulting every aspect of my life as being "predetermined".?
like the fat man. sure the fat man gains and loses weight according to the length of his intestines.... as EVERYBODY else does. what i am saying, or trying to make you understand is that the fat man at one point, maybe while eating his banana split for dessert after a bar-be-que decided, "man, i oughtta stop eating alot." so then he decides to go on a diet. and decides to get in shape. (keyword:decides)
i'm fairly overweight... i weigh about 212 lbs and stand 6'.... if i, myself, decide one day to get in shape, it's my choice. it's not something that was predetermined when some supernova 3 billion years ago set off, nor did it have anything to do with my family. (although those flour tortillas my mom made probably did have a thing or two to do with it.) BUT NONETHELESS, it was my choice to eat or not to eat the flour tortillas. those are things that have nothing to do with genetics.
and like i said, i understand that nature has been "predetermined" to behave in such ways... i'll even admit that i function in certain ways because of the way that i am designed, or have "evolved" if you'd rather much prefer. but ultimately i have choices to make.... i think it was angelica that said it:
God or the underlying Source of all universal forces and laws set all kinds of variables dynamics and laws into place. And he vested us as the ones to choose within that framework. We operate within his laws...
(thanks, angelica, i'll take it from here )
And operating within these laws... we are able to make our own choices. It's as if in this world and in this life there are roads.... thousands of them, to make it more complicated, that we have to choose from. Yes! By it's predetermining it only gave us those roads, but ultimately we choose the roads we wanna take.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
SOME One Said To Me That Was An Act Of God .i Told Them "are You Kidding Me " It Was Mother Nature Telling Us We Better Get Our Shit Together Or Its Goiong To Get Worse. That Was A Shocker When I Seen That .to Much Death Much To Much!
i UNDERSTAND that everything inside nature works in such ways as it was designed. whether by nature or by a creator, all i know is that everything works and functions as it has already been "predetermined"... i understand that. what i don't understand is how is that defaulting every aspect of my life as being "predetermined".?
like the fat man. sure the fat man gains and loses weight according to the length of his intestines.... as EVERYBODY else does. what i am saying, or trying to make you understand is that the fat man at one point, maybe while eating his banana split for dessert after a bar-be-que decided, "man, i oughtta stop eating alot." so then he decides to go on a diet. and decides to get in shape. (keyword:decides)
i'm fairly overweight... i weigh about 212 lbs and stand 6'.... if i, myself, decide one day to get in shape, it's my choice. it's not something that was predetermined when some supernova 3 billion years ago set off, nor did it have anything to do with my family. (although those flour tortillas my mom made probably did have a thing or two to do with it.) BUT NONETHELESS, it was my choice to eat or not to eat the flour tortillas. those are things that have nothing to do with genetics.
What happens after you eat it and what you are predisposed to is not your choice. You have zero control over that process.
You can choose to follow what you are fated towards, or consciously (and continuously) be in contention with it. Every decision you make will be affected by it. And those decisions have yet further consequences that affect you (fate).
But make no mistake you are predisposed to being fat. Fated to it.
If not one cell you have a choice over...exactly where are thinking you now have complete dominion over it? easy... you don't. You cannot escape it entirely. It's an impossibility. You are dealt a hand...and it plays out.
so yeah...you're mistaken in how you perceive it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
SOME One Said To Me That Was An Act Of God .i Told Them "are You Kidding Me " It Was Mother Nature Telling Us We Better Get Our Shit Together Or Its Goiong To Get Worse. That Was A Shocker When I Seen That .to Much Death Much To Much!
although i believe in god, i would much rather agree with you. i believe it was an act of nature telling us to get better.
oooh! oooh! i got a scripture! i got a scripture!
The creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Romans 8:20-22
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
What happens after you eat it and what you are predisposed to is not your choice. You have zero control over that process.
You can choose to follow what you are fated towards, or consciously (and continuously) be in contention with it. Every decision you make will be affected by it. And those decisions have yet further consequences that affect you (fate).
But make no mistake you are predisposed to being fat. Fated to it.
If not one cell you have a choice over...exactly where are thinking you now have complete dominion over it? easy... you don't. You cannot escape it entirely. It's an impossibility. You are dealt a hand...and it plays out.
so yeah...you're mistaken in how you perceive it.
but that's a whole other thing now.... it doesn't mean that my will is taken away. it's like what i editted, which i suggest you read through again....
true... i'm predisposed to getting fat if i eat cheeseburgers every single day. that, i can accept. what i can't accept is if you're going to tell me that i have no choice whatsoever and that i ate a cheeseburger because my ancestor from spain liked cheeseburgers. that wouldn't even make sense...
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Comments
Some people meditate for years to learn to stay in such states. I have meditated for years, and I've learned to do it in day to day--where I don't identify with my thoughts. And I just exist in awareness. I go in and out of these states. I constantly develop my discipline to stay in such states for longer and longer periods of time.
Most people today think they ARE their thoughts. And it's just not true. We are beings. We are bodies. We are an energy base that the thoughts arise from. We have sensations all throughout our bodies. We're buzzing with life energy. Our thoughts are merely the running commentary of what is. What is exists like the sky beyond the clouds (our thoughts).
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
I'm reading a lot of stuff here that just doesn't make any sense.
Physics is not random. There is nothing truly random. A coin-toss is not random, nor is the tiniest quantum fluctuation. Besides, randomness isn't a problem for fate.
"We" or "You" are a pack of neurons (Francis Crick). You aren't in a position to move the universe, you are subject to the laws of the universe and the complex interaction of nerve cells.
There are many ways to look at fate/destiny. Keep at it though.
yeah, people are subjected to the laws and restrictions of their environment, but peoples' environment is also subject to changes and effects as a result of actions made by the people. as insignificant and minute as we all are (as individuals AND as a whole), we still choose. and choice may very well be affected by past experiences, but i don't think that qualifies these choices to be referred to as 'fate,' but just choices that are being made because of memories of choices made in the past that achieved a postive result. it seems just as likely to me that life is a tale told by an idiot, in which we're all running around and bumping into eachother, as it does there is some cosmic force directing us all. i mean, look at the mess of a world we live in...would some greater force and forger of paths seriously be so bad at leading us all along? lol
Does it inspire?
Leaning out to catch the sun's rays...
A lesson to be applied.
Best night of my life. . .
Noblesville, IN 06-22-03.
myspace.com/justonemorebottle
"Love at first sight" is not real. It's exposed by biochemistry as being "Lust at first sight". Love is accrued over a lot of time together, usually initiated by lust. Sex helps a lot in building "Love" because it produces a lot of norepinephrine and oxytocin in the brain.
The "cosmic force" is none other than..... a set of laws governing reality. It has no concern or even knowledge of human existance. It's not a human-like thing, it's a rock-like thing, in that it is not conscious. Humans tend to anthropomorphize everything, that is, apply human characteristics to things which are not human, and that is a human fallacy. If you don't imagine the universe as being conscious, but rather, a set of laws governing reality, then the current state of the world is no surprise.
How we choose to interact with our environments and even which environments we choose to be in, is very much determined by our past experiences. But not only that, it's determined by the physical interaction of nerve cells in the brain, which may or may not happen to include all past experiences. The brain is not a simple sponge that soaks up information and spits out the best possible solutions, it's very prone to bad information and fallacious inference. I'm sure this is evident by the vast differences of opinion on very many topics.
The scientific method is the best method of determining what is reality. If you follow the scientific method to this end, you will see that the best hypothesis given the available information is fate/destiny. If you study the alternative and attempt to quantify it and explain it, you will fail. I've read a lot of attempts at quantifying free-will, and none satisfactorily meet any standards. Of course, it's easy to introspect and say from experience whatever it is you want to believe, you probably want to believe it due to your experiences to begin with. That's why we have statistical studies and we group them together to gather even more statistical information. If one person says something, its not a good reason to believe it, so why is your statements truer than the next? That's why we have science.
"Decide" implies intent, forethought and rationale. Who says the universe has any of those things? If you view the "initial configuration" of the universe as not being conscious or designed nor intended, but rather necessary, then no decision was ever made, it's simply what had to happen.
If two hydrogen atoms only fuse at 0.007 microns or whatever, then it would seem that 0.007 is a matter-of-fact, what had to happen. There is no room for it to be 0.006 or 0.008. Necessarily, it is 0.007. It's not unimaginable to think that hydrogen it's self is a necessity from which all other atomic particles necessarily spawned. What could be an alternative to hydrogen? Does it work as well, or does it fall apart? It could even be that quantum behaviour gave rise to physical reality in the same way evolution gave rise to species. Trial and error with a methodological twist. If I understand correctly, an atom is affected by it's neighbours, that is, atoms are influenced by the atoms around them. Perhaps if one atom stumbles upon a code that works, the others inherit the behaviour. So, right down to the quantum reality, or even smaller, the finest substrate of reality, if not infinity, could be a system of necessity. All things come to be, simply because they work. Ghosts and the like may not actually work in our reality, they seem to violate the basic laws of nature. Anything that could exist probably has or will at one point via the natural evolution of the universe.
In that perspective, you may have slept naked out of necessity, and nothing decided it. As far as I see, it's the only way of explaining how anything could evolve from relatively nothing. Consciousness, intent and the like are extremely complicated phenomena, not the kind of basic thing that is self-explanatory.
except of course, when i fart.... now then i can agree that i didn't have a choice
(that is given you actually did/do sleep with your clothes off)
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Yeah....same thing I was thinking.
Some people think they have choice when nothing that they are is from personal choice. Not a single cell.
There are confines and limits and set laws to how everything exists. Nothing is or can be pre-chosen ahead of time....therefore nothing can truly be chosen afterwards.
Some might think they can...but then they are zoomed too far in looking at the particulars, and applying it outwards (erroneously) as universal.
It doesn't work that way....it's top down.
dem don't know...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Well ryan, I believe in fate/destiny probably more so than you and less than the average person. Well I mean that I would use fate as an explaination probably more than you would, but less than the average person. I think many things happen in this world that can be scientifically explained using maths and physics or other known formulas and whilst they may appear to be fate/destiny they are able to be quantified. But I also believe that in order for some things to "just happen" or be fated, so many things must come in to play and be in "alignment", so many coincidences and happenstances that it doesn't seem possible that it's just a series of random events that came together to create "fate" and explaining it by some scientific equation just doesn't seem to cut it either. I am open to the possibility of fate/destiny probably moreso fate than destiny. If an event happens in my life that I cannot explain, then I would look to science and the known and if that didn't provide adequate answer then I'm happy to settle with fate.
What I really wanted to say though is one thing I do believe in is Skyhooks!
It would make the world a much better place!
Think this one is a good place to start!
Ego Is Not A Dirty Word
If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight
If I did not have an ego I might not think that I was right
If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed
If you did not have an ego you'd just be like the rest
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Don't you believe what you've seen or heard
If Jesus had an ego he'd still be alive today
And if Nixon had no ego he might not be in decay
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
Some people keep their egos in a bottom drawer
A fridge full of Leonard Cohen
Have to get drunk just to walk out the door
Stay drunk to keep on goin'
So if you got an ego
You better keep it in good shape
Exercise it daily
And get it down on tape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKS71oW0tZU
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
but i love how you worked skyhooks into the debate.
no, i do not believe in fate. fate intimates that we have no choice in future events. i believe we do. the choices we make NOW determines what happens in our future. if you're not prepared to act then you have no chance of getting what you want, let alone what you need. is laziness or indecision an agent of fate? i think not.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
which brings me to the next phase... he looses weight. you could say that the laws, limits and confines of life chose for him to get in shape.....
Genetics??????? hello?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
yeah, he's fat, like a diabetic person who is diabetic because of genetics, i understand that. but then the fat guy looses weight (becuase he decides to do so, mind you)... and gets in shape. what? are his muscles also a product of his genetics? i thought he inherited diabetes and obesity from his genes, not muscles.
I thought this was a well known fact?
I didn't work skyhooks into the debate, Ahnimus did!
Ok but what about seemingly random events? Isn't life what happens when you're busy making other plans? Sure we make choices about the future and our lives in general but sometimes things happen that have nothing to do with us making choices, sometimes things happen because of other people's choices and sometimes things just happen. Let us not forget "Shit Happens".
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Your question seems to make more sense to you perhaps explain what you mean better.
We gain and lose weight according to the length of our large intestine ...which is indeed genetics.
Body type is also genetics....(ecto, meso, endo) i.e. skeletal build and muscle density.
Are you even serious?
ask a real question...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
i UNDERSTAND that everything inside nature works in such ways as it was designed. whether by nature or by a creator, all i know is that everything works and functions as it has already been "predetermined"... i understand that. what i don't understand is how is that defaulting every aspect of my life as being "predetermined".?
like the fat man. sure the fat man gains and loses weight according to the length of his intestines.... as EVERYBODY else does. what i am saying, or trying to make you understand is that the fat man at one point, maybe while eating his banana split for dessert after a bar-be-que decided, "man, i oughtta stop eating alot." so then he decides to go on a diet. and decides to get in shape. (keyword:decides)
i'm fairly overweight... i weigh about 212 lbs and stand 6'.... if i, myself, decide one day to get in shape, it's my choice. it's not something that was predetermined when some supernova 3 billion years ago set off, nor did it have anything to do with my family. (although those flour tortillas my mom made probably did have a thing or two to do with it.) BUT NONETHELESS, it was my choice to eat or not to eat the flour tortillas. those are things that have nothing to do with genetics.
and like i said, i understand that nature has been "predetermined" to behave in such ways... i'll even admit that i function in certain ways because of the way that i am designed, or have "evolved" if you'd rather much prefer. but ultimately i have choices to make.... i think it was angelica that said it:
God or the underlying Source of all universal forces and laws set all kinds of variables dynamics and laws into place. And he vested us as the ones to choose within that framework. We operate within his laws...
(thanks, angelica, i'll take it from here
And operating within these laws... we are able to make our own choices. It's as if in this world and in this life there are roads.... thousands of them, to make it more complicated, that we have to choose from. Yes! By it's predetermining it only gave us those roads, but ultimately we choose the roads we wanna take.
What happens after you eat it and what you are predisposed to is not your choice. You have zero control over that process.
You can choose to follow what you are fated towards, or consciously (and continuously) be in contention with it. Every decision you make will be affected by it. And those decisions have yet further consequences that affect you (fate).
But make no mistake you are predisposed to being fat. Fated to it.
If not one cell you have a choice over...exactly where are thinking you now have complete dominion over it? easy... you don't. You cannot escape it entirely. It's an impossibility. You are dealt a hand...and it plays out.
so yeah...you're mistaken in how you perceive it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
oooh! oooh! i got a scripture! i got a scripture!
The creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Romans 8:20-22
true... i'm predisposed to getting fat if i eat cheeseburgers every single day. that, i can accept. what i can't accept is if you're going to tell me that i have no choice whatsoever and that i ate a cheeseburger because my ancestor from spain liked cheeseburgers. that wouldn't even make sense...