Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has demanded that the United Nations and the United States impose a cease-fire on the combat between Israel and Hezbollah. It is an odd demand for Mr. Siniora to make now. Hezbollah has been sending rockets across Lebanon's southern border into Israel ever since he became p.m.--and for years before. The Security Council had already mandated in the spring that Beirut disarm Hezbollah and establish its military authority in the southern part of the country which the Shia terrorists control. Not the smallest effort has been made to do this, and no Lebanese soldier has been seen in the Hezbollah mini-state for at least a decade. For that matter, no Lebanese flag has been seen there either. As for the United Nations, it already has troops on the Israel-Lebanon frontier, and they have been there for decades. They see movement in the bushes, and they retreat to their huts. The truth is that, if a truce were to be declared between Israel and Lebanon, Israel would honor it. But Siniora couldn't even if he wanted to. Since the Hezbollah militia exists only to make war on Israel (even though it vacated Lebanese territory entirely six years ago), Lebanon's desire for a quiet border is impeded by Hassan Nasrallah's cutthroats. Only if they were to be removed, could Siniora even aspire to guarantee the armistice he says he wants. Hezbollah's mini-state is not the first one to bring ruin to Lebanon. A quarter century ago, the PLO mini-state in the very same area of the country brought death and devastation to the country. When history repeats itself, it is rarely pleasant.
You cannot justify what your country is doing. Today, at least 20 more Lebanese have been killed. I don't agree with Hezbollah, but I sure as hell don't agree with the merciless backlash from your government on a country that seems to be pretty helpless (where is the ACTUAL Lebanese army?). Israel is bombing Lebanon itsself into utter submission, not just targeting Hezbollah. It is the country of Lebanon, that has strived to recover from grave problems over the past 10 or so years, that is suffering most from this and will be "driven back 20 years" (as your Israeli government says) by these attacks.
The capture of two soldiers and aggressive actions from an enemy militant group does not justify the rape of a country.
There isn't really much point in us argueing...... Stay safe, but remember your country is just as bad.....
Other news: Israeli has sent a 72 hour ultimatum to Syria, demanding for them to stand against Hezbollah and ensure the return of the 2 captive soldiers, or it will begin bombardment of Syria.......
I'm not argueing, nor trying to justify our actions. It just drives me nuts that I'm (and the rest of the people here are) nothing but a number to you. As someone has just mentioned, I think a discussion like this should be backed with knowledge, something that obveisly you don't have.
It's obviously not the intent to offend you or to consider you as nothing but a number, but when you start a thread about this war, what do you expect exactly? Of course not everyone will agree with you and your country, but i'm 100% sure that everyone does feel compassion or empathy (whatever the feeling is) for you and your situation. If i did offend one of you i'm sorry it was not the intent, if you consider me as ignorant no problem, all i'm doing is commenting the stuffs i hear about or read about, and i won't change my mind about the Isreali govt., their response is criminal, just like the Hezbollah actions. That was my last ignorant post in this thread since i don't want to offend any of you who are dealing with this tough situation, be safe...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
It's obviously not the intent to offend you or to consider you as nothing but a number, but when you start a thread about this war, what do you expect exactly? Of course not everyone will agree with you and your country, but i'm 100% sure that everyone does feel compassion or empathy (whatever the feeling is) for you and your situation. If i did offend one of you i'm sorry it was not the intent, if you consider me as ignorant no problem, all i'm doing is commenting the stuffs i hear about or read about, and i won't change my mind about the Isreali govt., their response is criminal, just like the Hezbollah actions. That was my last ignorant post in this thread since i don't want to offend any of you who are dealing with this tough situation, be safe...
I started this because:
1. I needed to let it all out.
2. I was frustrated to see how little you (= the Train) know about what's really going on here, and yet still allow yourselfs to see it all in black & white. You hear about "it" and maybe read about "it". I'm living it, this is my life you are talking about. My life. Not some stupid reality show you use to see on TV.
3. I'm not offended by any of your opinions, just shocked to see on how little / wrong info you chose to base them.
2. I was frustrated to see how little you (= the Train) know about what's really going on here, and yet still allow yourselfs to see it all in black & white. You hear about "it" and maybe read about "it". I'm living it, this is my life you are talking about. My life. Not some stupid reality show you use to see on TV.
3. I'm not offended by any of your opinions, just shocked to see on how little / wrong info you chose to base them.
I hope you stay safe. I have no idea what the so-called 'appropriate response' to the situation is. Really you can only take so much and keep sitting on your hands so long before you have to take a stand. It is obvious the the surrounding countries either a) don't care about Israel and it's people or b) want to eliminate Israel and it's people.
This is going to get so much worse before it gets any better.
I'm not argueing, nor trying to justify our actions. It just drives me nuts that I'm (and the rest of the people here are) nothing but a number to you. As someone has just mentioned, I think a discussion like this should be backed with knowledge, something that obveisly you don't have.
You should shut the hell up now. I didn't say you were "just a number" and I have let my compassions to you known. eg. "Stay safe", "I know your predicament is difficult", yet because I criticise your government for its wrongdoings you say I have no knowledge. I back what I say with facts, give me a goddamn break, I say we should stop argueing and you throw sewage like what you just said back in my face.
EDIT: Sorry, but I do not think you are "just a number" and if you read what I write besides my criticisms of the Israeli government you'd see you have my sympathy.....
2. I was frustrated to see how little you (= the Train) know about what's really going on here, and yet still allow yourselfs to see it all in black & white. You hear about "it" and maybe read about "it". I'm living it, this is my life you are talking about. My life. Not some stupid reality show you use to see on TV.
3. I'm not offended by any of your opinions, just shocked to see on how little / wrong info you chose to base them.
1. Fair Enough.
2. I'm talking about International politics with what I say, not your own personal predicament.
3. 106 Lebanese dead, its airport bombed and its infastructure under brutal attack, is NOT wrong info.
You should shut the hell up now. I didn't say you wrre just a number and I have let my compassions to you known. "Stay safe", "I know your predicament is difficult", yet because I criticise your government for its wrongdoings you say I have no knowledge. I back what I say with facts, give me a goddamn break, I say we should stop argueing and you throw sewage like what you just said back in my face.
That was uncalled for and inappropriate.
Regardless of what you think, we (those of us not close enough to the situation) are for the main part ignorant of all the facts of the situation.
Quoting some news story headline or article from CNN, hardly qualifies as making you or me educated on the matter. We only know bits and pieces of what has occured.
Regardless of what you think, we (those of us not close enough to the situation) are for the main part ignorant of all the facts of the situation.
Quoting some news story headline or article from CNN, hardly qualifies as making you or me educated on the matter. We only know bits and pieces of what has occured.
Perhaps, but we still have knowledge on the matter and I wouldn't say we are completely ignorant of what's going on. We are just not experiencing it....
What annoyed me was that I sympathised with his personal predicament (which is terrible and I wish he wasn't in it) and he then accused me of calling him "just a number", it just got me riled, since I don't want him to believe I have no sympathy for what he's going through whilst still retaining my view that politically Israel is wrong on this matter.....
Regardless of what you think, we (those of us not close enough to the situation) are for the main part ignorant of all the facts of the situation.
Quoting some news story headline or article from CNN, hardly qualifies as making you or me educated on the matter. We only know bits and pieces of what has occured.
I agree with this. Seems to me, someone LIVING in the situation, whether it be an individual from Israel or Lebanon, has every right to speak on the situation. It's so easy for those of us not living under those conditions to point fingers, blame, & speculate. There is enough blame to go around. Personally, I'm pretty fed up with all power-hungry, war-mongering ego-maniacs, American, Israeli, Muslim, or otherwise.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I agree with this. Seems to me, someone LIVING in the situation, whether it be an individual from Israel or Lebanon, has every right to speak on the situation. It's so easy for those of us not living under those conditions to point fingers, blame, & speculate. There is enough blame to go around. Personally, I'm pretty fed up with all power-hungry, war-mongering ego-maniacs, American, Israeli, Muslim, or otherwise.
Yeah but if one were to say "you can't comment unless you are actually in the situation" that would be a little far. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and views about what is happening. Those directly involved deserve our sympathy though, obviously.
Yeah but if one were to say "you can't comment unless you are actually in the situation" that would be a little far. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and views about what is happening. Those directly involved deserve our sympathy though, obviously.
(Off to watch "The Weatherman"........)
You have every right to voice your opinion as well. Your post above shows balance, so perhaps the 'shut the hell up' comment was a lapse in judgement. Debates like this can get heated.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
You have every right to voice your opinion as well. Your post above shows balance, so perhaps the 'shut the hell up' comment was a lapse in judgement. Debates like this can get heated.
Yes, you're right. You people around here aren't stupid......
Anyways, I hope Syria doesn't get dragged in and that hostilities stop ASAP. Maybe the G8 summit that was being held today (I think) could contribute to a ceasefire in some fashion, even though top on their agenda is Africa I believe.....
Israel/Palestine
Noam Chomsky interviewed by
Amy Goodman
July 15, 2006
AMY GOODMAN: We're joined on the phone right now by Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of dozens of books. His latest is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. In May, he traveled to Beirut, where he met, among others, Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. He joins us on the phone from Masachusetts. We welcome you to Democracy Now!
NOAM CHOMSKY: Hi, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us. Well, can you talk about what is happening now, both in Lebanon and Gaza?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, of course, I have no inside information, other than what's available to you and listeners. What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back at the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.
At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, what's euphemistically called "convergence" and described here often as a "withdrawal," but in fact it's a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley. Well, that proceeds without extreme violence or nothing much said about it.
Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don't have to repeat. It's reported on adequately.
The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?
But the real reason, I think it's generally agreed by analysts, is that -- I'll read from the Financial Times, which happens to be right in front of me. "The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously." David Hearst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse.
It's a very -- mind you -- very irresponsible act. It subjects Lebanese to possible -- certainly to plenty of terror and possible extreme disaster. Whether it can achieve any result, either in the secondary question of freeing prisoners or the primary question of some form of solidarity with the people of Gaza, I hope so, but I wouldn't rank the probabilities very high.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Noam Chomsky, in the commercial press here the last day, a lot of the focus has been pointing toward Iran and Syria as basically the ones engineering much of what's going on now in terms of the upsurge of fighting in Lebanon. Your thoughts on these analyses that seem to sort of downplay the actual resistance movement going on there and trying to reduce this once again to pointing toward Iran?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the fact is that we have no information about that, and I doubt very much that the people who are writing it have any information. And frankly, I doubt that U.S. intelligence has any information. It's certainly plausible. I mean, there's no doubt that there are connections, probably strong connections, between Hezbollah and Syria and Iran, but whether those connections were instrumental in motivating these latest actions, I don't think we have the slightest idea. You can guess anything you'd like. It's a possibility. In fact, even a probability. But on the other hand, there's every reason to believe that Hezbollah has its own motivations, maybe the ones that Hearst and the Financial Times and others are pointing to. That seems plausible, too. Much more plausible, in fact.
AMY GOODMAN: There was even some reports yesterday that said that Hezbollah might try to send the Israeli soldiers that it had captured to Iran.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, Israel actually claims that it has concrete evidence that that's what was going to happen. That's why it's attempting to blockade both the sea and bomb the airport.
NOAM CHOMSKY: They are claiming that. That's true. But I repeat, we don't have any evidence. Claims by a state that's carrying out the military attacks don't really amount to very much, in terms of credibility. If they have evidence, it would be interesting to see it. And in fact, it might happen. Even if it does happen, it won't prove much. If Hezbollah, wherever they have the prisoners, the soldiers, if they decide that they can't keep them in Lebanon because of the scale of Israeli attacks, they might send them somewhere else. I'm skeptical that Syria or Iran would accept them at this point, or even if they can get them there, but they might want to.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky , we have to break. When we come back, we'll ask you about the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations comments about Lebanon. We'll also be joined by Mouin Rabbani, speaking to us from Jerusalem, Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group. Then Ron Suskind joins us, author of The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of its Enemies Since 9/11. Stay with us.
AMY GOODMAN: Our guest on the phone is Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. I wanted to ask you about the comment of the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. He defended Israel's actions as a justified response. This is Dan Gillerman.
DAN GILLERMAN: As we sit here during these very difficult days, I urge you and I urge my colleagues to ask yourselves this question: What would do you if your countries found themselves under such attacks, if your neighbors infiltrated your borders to kidnap your people, and if hundreds of rockets were launched at your towns and villages? Would you just sit back and take it, or would you do exactly what Israel is doing at this very minute?
AMY GOODMAN: That was Dan Gillerman, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Noam Chomsky, your response?
NOAM CHOMSKY: He was referring to Lebanon, rather than Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: He was.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Yeah. Well, he's correct that hundreds of rockets have been fired, and naturally that has to be stopped. But he didn't mention, or maybe at least in this comment, that the rockets were fired after the heavy Israeli attacks against Lebanon, which killed -- well, latest reports, maybe 60 or so people and destroyed a lot of infrastructure. As always, things have precedence, and you have to decide which was the inciting event. In my view, the inciting event in the present case, events, are those that I mentioned -- the constant intense repression; plenty of abductions; plenty of atrocities in Gaza; the steady takeover of the West Bank, which, in effect, if it continues, is just the murder of a nation, the end of Palestine; the abduction on June 24 of the two Gaza civilians; and then the reaction to the abduction of Corporal Shalit. And there's a difference, incidentally, between abduction of civilians and abduction of soldiers. Even international humanitarian law makes that distinction.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what that distinction is?
NOAM CHOMSKY: If there's a conflict going on, aside physical war, not in a military conflict going on, abduction -- if soldiers are captured, they are to be treated humanely. But it is not a crime at the level of capture of civilians and bringing them across the border into your own country. That's a serious crime. And that's the one that's not reported. And, in fact, remember that -- I mean, I don't have to tell you that there are constant attacks going on in Gaza, which is basically a prison, huge prison, under constant attack all the time: economic strangulation, military attack, assassinations, and so on. In comparison with that, abduction of a soldier, whatever one thinks about it, doesn't rank high in the scale of atrocities.
JUAN GONZALEZ: We're also joined on the line by Mouin Rabbani, a senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group and a contributing editor of Middle East Report. He joins us on the line from Jerusalem. Welcome to Democracy Now!
MOUIN RABBANI: Hi.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Could you tell us your perspective on this latest escalation of the conflict there and the possibility that Israel is going to be mired once again in war in Lebanon?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, it's difficult to say. I couldn't hear Professor Chomsky's comments. I could just make out every sixth word. But I think that Israel is now basically, if you will, trying to rewrite the rules of the game and set new terms for its adversaries, basically saying, you know, that no attacks of any sort on Israeli forces or otherwise will be permitted, and any such attack will invite a severe response that basically puts the entire civilian infrastructure of the entire country or territory from which that attack emanates at risk. Judging by what we've seen so far, it more or less enjoys tacit to explicit international sanction. And I think the possibilities that this conflict could further expand into a regional one, perhaps involving Syria, is at this point quite real.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about the UN resolution, a vote in the draft resolution, 10-to-1, on Gaza with the U.S. voting no and for countries abstaining -- Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, I think it would have been news if that resolution had actually passed. I think, you know, for the last decade, if not for much longer, it's basically become a reality in the United Nations that it's an organization incapable of discharging any of its duties or responsibilities towards maintaining or restoring peace and security in the Middle East, primarily because of the U.S. power of veto on the Security Council. And I think we've now reached the point where even a rhetorical condemnation of Israeli action, such as we've seen in Gaza over the past several weeks, even a rhetorical condemnation without practical consequence has become largely unthinkable, again, primarily because of the U.S. veto within the Security Council.
AMY GOODMAN: Mouin, what do you think is going to happen right now, both in Gaza and in Lebanon?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, I think it's probably going to get significantly worse. I mean, in Lebanon, it seems to be a case where Hezbollah has a more restricted agenda of compelling Israel to conduct prisoner exchange, whereas Israel has a broader agenda of seeking to compel the disarmament of Hezbollah or at least to push it back several dozen kilometers from the Israeli-Lebanese border. You know, the Israeli and Hezbollah perspectives on this are entirely incompatible, and that means that this conflict is probably going to continue escalating, until some kind of mediation begins.
In Gaza, it's somewhat different. I think there Hamas has a broader agenda, of which effecting a prisoner exchange with Israel is only one, and I would argue, even a secondary part. I think there Hamas's main objective is to compel Israel to accept a mutual cessation of hostilities, Israeli-Palestinian, and I think, even more important, of ensuring their right to govern. And I think, at least as far as the Israeli-Palestinian part of this is concerned, Hamas's main objective has been to send a very clear message, not only to Israel, but to all its adversaries, whether Israeli, Palestinian or foreign, to remind the world that political integration and democratic politics for them are an experiment, that they have alternatives, and if they're not allowed to exercise their democratic mandate, that they will not hesitate, if necessary, to exercise those alternatives.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Noam Chomsky, right now industrial world leaders gathered in St. Petersburg for the G8 meeting. What role does the U.S. have in this?
NOAM CHOMSKY: In the G8 meeting?
AMY GOODMAN: No. What role -- they're just gathered together -- in this, certainly the issue of Lebanon, Gaza, the Middle East is going to dominate that discussion. But how significant is the U.S. in this?
NOAM CHOMSKY: I think it will probably be very much like the UN resolution that you mentioned, which is -- I'm sorry, I couldn't hear what Mouin Rabbani was saying. But the UN resolution was -- the veto of the UN resolution is standard. That goes back decades. The U.S. has virtually alone been blocking the possibility of diplomatic settlement, censure of Israeli crimes and atrocities. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the U.S vetoed several resolutions right away, calling for an end to the fighting and so on, and that was a hideous invasion. And this continues through every administration. So I presume it will continue at the G8 meetings.
The United States regards Israel as virtually a militarized offshoot, and it protects it from criticism or actions and supports passively and, in fact, overtly supports its expansion, its attacks on Palestinians, its progressive takeover of what remains of Palestinian territory, and its acts to, well, actually realize a comment that Moshe Dayan made back in the early '70s when he was responsible for the Occupied Territories. He said to his cabinet colleagues that we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads. That's basically the policy. And I presume the U.S. will continue to advance that policy in one or another fashion.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky , I want to thank you for being with us. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. And Mouin Rabbani, senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group, joining us from Jerusalem. Thank you both.
the original idea was, that where ever the jews where a majority in israel would be the israeli state and where the arabs would be a majority would be an arab state
bet arabs never miss and oppotunity to miss an opotunity
damn right, has not does not and should never exist, the arabs have 22 states including jorden (wich is a palastinian state) they dont nead the tiny strip of land called israel
jews living in arab lands where expelled had thire property confiscated, becouse the arab group religion said so
So, you agree that there is no defense of Israel's existance but the other way around which is how I see it...only I think Palestine has more of a right than Israel because they were drove out of their homes by occupiers. I think Palestians are more than willing to share but Israel seems to think enough is never enough and sharing becomes more and more like simply taking.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
In the middle of all these endless reasoning if palestine is a state or not, inoocent civilians are deprived of their basic human rights. In both the sides. So, a bit of more open and brave negotiations would be better, instead than continuous closing in respective positions.
Depeche Mode - People Are People
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
So were different colours
And were different creeds
And different people
Have different needs
Its obvious you hate me
Though Ive done nothing wrong
Ive never even met you
So what could I have done
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
Help me understand
Help me understand
Now youre punching
And youre kicking
And youre shouting at me
And Im relying on your common decency
So far it hasnt surfaced
But Im sure it exists
It just takes a while to travel
From your head to your fist (head to your fists)
I cant understand what makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
I cant understand (people are people)
What makes a man (why should it be)
Hate another man
Help me understand...
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Violence is not the only health concern in the Middle East. Experts around the world are expressing concern over poverty and malnutrition in Palestinian areas. CNN's John Vause talked to one father about how his family is suffering under the curfew.....
VAUSE: Before the intifadah, he made a good living, about $40 U.S. a day at a bakery in Israel. He is one of an estimated 150,000 Palestinians who have lost their jobs because they're not allowed to leave the territories. Curfews which Israel says are crucial to stop terrorist attacks. In Gaza, where unemployment is close to 70 percent, Abdel Karim worries most about his boys.....
VAUSE: Two years ago, a study found less than 2 percent of children under 5 were moderately or severely malnourished. Now a study by Johns Hopkins University has found that malnutrition has jumped substantially; 31 percent suffering from mild to severe malnutrition; almost the same number are underweight.
Many say that curfews on the West Bank have stopped them from buying groceries. The main reason, though, according to the report, is money. They just can't afford to buy fruit, vegetables and meat.
PAUL MCCANN, U.N. RELIEF AGENCY: The World Bank survey found that something like 60 percent of Palestinians are living on less than $2 a day. That's approaching the kind of figures you see in sub- Saharan Africa.
VAUSE: Traditionally Palestinian families helped each other in a crisis, but after the last two years, most can't afford to. There's just nothing left to give.....
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
You want me to defend my country against "world opinion"? Fuck em. How's that. Fuck em. FUCK EM. We dont care. We stand for what WE believe in. Not what THEY believe in. So FUCK EM. Any questions?
But I thought you said 'fuck em' was wrong somewhere before?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Nothing but 100 percent supprot for israel here....teach hezbollah a lesson and may god be with you!
Why do you presume that God supports and condones unrestrained military aggression, and the killing of civilians by an international pariah, and rogue state like Israel, which is engaging in an illegal occupation of anothers land? Strange that.
Why do you presume that God supports and condones unrestrained military aggression, and the killing of civilians by an international pariah, and rogue state like Israel, which is engaging in an illegal occupation of anothers land? Strange that.
Biblically speaking, god "supported" quite a few wars.
Biblically speaking, god "supported" quite a few wars.
Men use the name of God for all kinds of evil. God is Love. War is not. Therefore imagining God supports a small-minded human-ego view goes contrary to my idea of God as being All, and unity and Spirit and Love. If God is omipresent and in all things, God is also in what we kill, hate and separate from. Love/God knows no separation. When humans align with separation, it's not God they are aligned to.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Men use the name of God for all kinds of evil. God is Love. War is not. Therefore imagining God supports a small-minded human-ego view goes contrary to my idea of God as being All, and unity and Spirit and Love. If God is omipresent and in all things, God is also in what we kill, hate and separate from. Love/God knows no separation. When humans align with separation, it's not God they are aligned to.
But if going to war can and will save people you love, is that not love? Im not applying this to this particular war, so relax, im speaking generally.
But if going to war can and will save people you love, is that not love? Im not applying this to this particular war, so relax, im speaking generally.
That position is certainly understandable at a human level. Yet when we're talking about God's support for some of his children over others, we're talking in human terms, not understanding God's terms.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
But if going to war can and will save people you love, is that not love? Im not applying this to this particular war, so relax, im speaking generally.
Another key point is that there are love choices and fear choices. When we are open to learn, grow and unfold, we make choices wherein we expand--love choices. Choices based on fear, anger, hatred etc are about contracting, shutting down, blocking growth and learning. When we shut down, we stunt/retard ourselves and wallow in our own sabotage. When we are open to grow, expand, to understand the outcome is so much different.
Going to war for "love" can really be going to war for fear, in the name of love. To pretend one agenda, and to deny the true inner agenda is an illusion. If we can't resolve our own inner conflicts, it's not a wonder they show up all around us. The problem is we can't blame others for our own problems. They are inescapable when they are in us.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
How some linguistics professor became some Middle East "expert" is beyond hysterical. His popularity rests in the purpose he serves for those who hate Israel. He is a gift on a silver platter to Jew-baiters who glom onto people like him so they can say, "see, even a Jew realizes Israel's 'injustice'".
Folks on this board eat shit up like Chomsky, Finkelstein, and Zinn. That's the best coat of armor for their bigotry, to be able to drag out a token self-hating Jew for their side of the argument. Hey, at least one can argue you find Jews on all sides. Even Hamas's lawyer is a Brooklyn Jew named Stanley Cohen. Can you find any Arabs willing to go against the grain? If they do, they end up strung to a telephone pole.
Shiraz, take care of yourself and be well. I also wish well to the Arab civilians. I hate to oversimplify but ...
If the Arabs put down their arms, there would be no violence.
If the Jews put down their arms, there would be no Jews.
Comments
--Martin Peretz
Most antizionists are antisemites
I'm not argueing, nor trying to justify our actions. It just drives me nuts that I'm (and the rest of the people here are) nothing but a number to you. As someone has just mentioned, I think a discussion like this should be backed with knowledge, something that obveisly you don't have.
It's obviously not the intent to offend you or to consider you as nothing but a number, but when you start a thread about this war, what do you expect exactly? Of course not everyone will agree with you and your country, but i'm 100% sure that everyone does feel compassion or empathy (whatever the feeling is) for you and your situation. If i did offend one of you i'm sorry it was not the intent, if you consider me as ignorant no problem, all i'm doing is commenting the stuffs i hear about or read about, and i won't change my mind about the Isreali govt., their response is criminal, just like the Hezbollah actions. That was my last ignorant post in this thread since i don't want to offend any of you who are dealing with this tough situation, be safe...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Absolutely.
Would be nice.
I started this because:
1. I needed to let it all out.
2. I was frustrated to see how little you (= the Train) know about what's really going on here, and yet still allow yourselfs to see it all in black & white. You hear about "it" and maybe read about "it". I'm living it, this is my life you are talking about. My life. Not some stupid reality show you use to see on TV.
3. I'm not offended by any of your opinions, just shocked to see on how little / wrong info you chose to base them.
I hope you stay safe. I have no idea what the so-called 'appropriate response' to the situation is. Really you can only take so much and keep sitting on your hands so long before you have to take a stand. It is obvious the the surrounding countries either a) don't care about Israel and it's people or b) want to eliminate Israel and it's people.
This is going to get so much worse before it gets any better.
You should shut the hell up now. I didn't say you were "just a number" and I have let my compassions to you known. eg. "Stay safe", "I know your predicament is difficult", yet because I criticise your government for its wrongdoings you say I have no knowledge. I back what I say with facts, give me a goddamn break, I say we should stop argueing and you throw sewage like what you just said back in my face.
EDIT: Sorry, but I do not think you are "just a number" and if you read what I write besides my criticisms of the Israeli government you'd see you have my sympathy.....
1. Fair Enough.
2. I'm talking about International politics with what I say, not your own personal predicament.
3. 106 Lebanese dead, its airport bombed and its infastructure under brutal attack, is NOT wrong info.
That was uncalled for and inappropriate.
Regardless of what you think, we (those of us not close enough to the situation) are for the main part ignorant of all the facts of the situation.
Quoting some news story headline or article from CNN, hardly qualifies as making you or me educated on the matter. We only know bits and pieces of what has occured.
Perhaps, but we still have knowledge on the matter and I wouldn't say we are completely ignorant of what's going on. We are just not experiencing it....
What annoyed me was that I sympathised with his personal predicament (which is terrible and I wish he wasn't in it) and he then accused me of calling him "just a number", it just got me riled, since I don't want him to believe I have no sympathy for what he's going through whilst still retaining my view that politically Israel is wrong on this matter.....
I agree with this. Seems to me, someone LIVING in the situation, whether it be an individual from Israel or Lebanon, has every right to speak on the situation. It's so easy for those of us not living under those conditions to point fingers, blame, & speculate. There is enough blame to go around. Personally, I'm pretty fed up with all power-hungry, war-mongering ego-maniacs, American, Israeli, Muslim, or otherwise.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Yeah but if one were to say "you can't comment unless you are actually in the situation" that would be a little far. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas and views about what is happening. Those directly involved deserve our sympathy though, obviously.
(Off to watch "The Weatherman"........)
You have every right to voice your opinion as well. Your post above shows balance, so perhaps the 'shut the hell up' comment was a lapse in judgement. Debates like this can get heated.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Yes, you're right. You people around here aren't stupid......
Anyways, I hope Syria doesn't get dragged in and that hostilities stop ASAP. Maybe the G8 summit that was being held today (I think) could contribute to a ceasefire in some fashion, even though top on their agenda is Africa I believe.....
Noam Chomsky interviewed by
Amy Goodman
July 15, 2006
AMY GOODMAN: We're joined on the phone right now by Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of dozens of books. His latest is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. In May, he traveled to Beirut, where he met, among others, Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. He joins us on the phone from Masachusetts. We welcome you to Democracy Now!
NOAM CHOMSKY: Hi, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us. Well, can you talk about what is happening now, both in Lebanon and Gaza?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, of course, I have no inside information, other than what's available to you and listeners. What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back at the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe.
At the same time, it's partly in Gaza, and sort of hidden in a way, but even more extreme in the West Bank, where Olmert announced his annexation program, what's euphemistically called "convergence" and described here often as a "withdrawal," but in fact it's a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it, since he also announced that Israel would take over the Jordan Valley. Well, that proceeds without extreme violence or nothing much said about it.
Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don't have to repeat. It's reported on adequately.
The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release. There are a few, nobody knows how many. Officially, there are three Lebanese prisoners in Israel. There's allegedly a couple hundred people missing. Who knows where they are?
But the real reason, I think it's generally agreed by analysts, is that -- I'll read from the Financial Times, which happens to be right in front of me. "The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously." David Hearst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse.
It's a very -- mind you -- very irresponsible act. It subjects Lebanese to possible -- certainly to plenty of terror and possible extreme disaster. Whether it can achieve any result, either in the secondary question of freeing prisoners or the primary question of some form of solidarity with the people of Gaza, I hope so, but I wouldn't rank the probabilities very high.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Noam Chomsky, in the commercial press here the last day, a lot of the focus has been pointing toward Iran and Syria as basically the ones engineering much of what's going on now in terms of the upsurge of fighting in Lebanon. Your thoughts on these analyses that seem to sort of downplay the actual resistance movement going on there and trying to reduce this once again to pointing toward Iran?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the fact is that we have no information about that, and I doubt very much that the people who are writing it have any information. And frankly, I doubt that U.S. intelligence has any information. It's certainly plausible. I mean, there's no doubt that there are connections, probably strong connections, between Hezbollah and Syria and Iran, but whether those connections were instrumental in motivating these latest actions, I don't think we have the slightest idea. You can guess anything you'd like. It's a possibility. In fact, even a probability. But on the other hand, there's every reason to believe that Hezbollah has its own motivations, maybe the ones that Hearst and the Financial Times and others are pointing to. That seems plausible, too. Much more plausible, in fact.
AMY GOODMAN: There was even some reports yesterday that said that Hezbollah might try to send the Israeli soldiers that it had captured to Iran.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, Israel actually claims that it has concrete evidence that that's what was going to happen. That's why it's attempting to blockade both the sea and bomb the airport.
NOAM CHOMSKY: They are claiming that. That's true. But I repeat, we don't have any evidence. Claims by a state that's carrying out the military attacks don't really amount to very much, in terms of credibility. If they have evidence, it would be interesting to see it. And in fact, it might happen. Even if it does happen, it won't prove much. If Hezbollah, wherever they have the prisoners, the soldiers, if they decide that they can't keep them in Lebanon because of the scale of Israeli attacks, they might send them somewhere else. I'm skeptical that Syria or Iran would accept them at this point, or even if they can get them there, but they might want to.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky , we have to break. When we come back, we'll ask you about the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations comments about Lebanon. We'll also be joined by Mouin Rabbani, speaking to us from Jerusalem, Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group. Then Ron Suskind joins us, author of The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of its Enemies Since 9/11. Stay with us.
AMY GOODMAN: Our guest on the phone is Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. I wanted to ask you about the comment of the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. He defended Israel's actions as a justified response. This is Dan Gillerman.
DAN GILLERMAN: As we sit here during these very difficult days, I urge you and I urge my colleagues to ask yourselves this question: What would do you if your countries found themselves under such attacks, if your neighbors infiltrated your borders to kidnap your people, and if hundreds of rockets were launched at your towns and villages? Would you just sit back and take it, or would you do exactly what Israel is doing at this very minute?
AMY GOODMAN: That was Dan Gillerman, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations. Noam Chomsky, your response?
NOAM CHOMSKY: He was referring to Lebanon, rather than Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: He was.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Yeah. Well, he's correct that hundreds of rockets have been fired, and naturally that has to be stopped. But he didn't mention, or maybe at least in this comment, that the rockets were fired after the heavy Israeli attacks against Lebanon, which killed -- well, latest reports, maybe 60 or so people and destroyed a lot of infrastructure. As always, things have precedence, and you have to decide which was the inciting event. In my view, the inciting event in the present case, events, are those that I mentioned -- the constant intense repression; plenty of abductions; plenty of atrocities in Gaza; the steady takeover of the West Bank, which, in effect, if it continues, is just the murder of a nation, the end of Palestine; the abduction on June 24 of the two Gaza civilians; and then the reaction to the abduction of Corporal Shalit. And there's a difference, incidentally, between abduction of civilians and abduction of soldiers. Even international humanitarian law makes that distinction.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what that distinction is?
NOAM CHOMSKY: If there's a conflict going on, aside physical war, not in a military conflict going on, abduction -- if soldiers are captured, they are to be treated humanely. But it is not a crime at the level of capture of civilians and bringing them across the border into your own country. That's a serious crime. And that's the one that's not reported. And, in fact, remember that -- I mean, I don't have to tell you that there are constant attacks going on in Gaza, which is basically a prison, huge prison, under constant attack all the time: economic strangulation, military attack, assassinations, and so on. In comparison with that, abduction of a soldier, whatever one thinks about it, doesn't rank high in the scale of atrocities.
JUAN GONZALEZ: We're also joined on the line by Mouin Rabbani, a senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group and a contributing editor of Middle East Report. He joins us on the line from Jerusalem. Welcome to Democracy Now!
MOUIN RABBANI: Hi.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Could you tell us your perspective on this latest escalation of the conflict there and the possibility that Israel is going to be mired once again in war in Lebanon?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, it's difficult to say. I couldn't hear Professor Chomsky's comments. I could just make out every sixth word. But I think that Israel is now basically, if you will, trying to rewrite the rules of the game and set new terms for its adversaries, basically saying, you know, that no attacks of any sort on Israeli forces or otherwise will be permitted, and any such attack will invite a severe response that basically puts the entire civilian infrastructure of the entire country or territory from which that attack emanates at risk. Judging by what we've seen so far, it more or less enjoys tacit to explicit international sanction. And I think the possibilities that this conflict could further expand into a regional one, perhaps involving Syria, is at this point quite real.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about the UN resolution, a vote in the draft resolution, 10-to-1, on Gaza with the U.S. voting no and for countries abstaining -- Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, I think it would have been news if that resolution had actually passed. I think, you know, for the last decade, if not for much longer, it's basically become a reality in the United Nations that it's an organization incapable of discharging any of its duties or responsibilities towards maintaining or restoring peace and security in the Middle East, primarily because of the U.S. power of veto on the Security Council. And I think we've now reached the point where even a rhetorical condemnation of Israeli action, such as we've seen in Gaza over the past several weeks, even a rhetorical condemnation without practical consequence has become largely unthinkable, again, primarily because of the U.S. veto within the Security Council.
AMY GOODMAN: Mouin, what do you think is going to happen right now, both in Gaza and in Lebanon?
MOUIN RABBANI: Well, I think it's probably going to get significantly worse. I mean, in Lebanon, it seems to be a case where Hezbollah has a more restricted agenda of compelling Israel to conduct prisoner exchange, whereas Israel has a broader agenda of seeking to compel the disarmament of Hezbollah or at least to push it back several dozen kilometers from the Israeli-Lebanese border. You know, the Israeli and Hezbollah perspectives on this are entirely incompatible, and that means that this conflict is probably going to continue escalating, until some kind of mediation begins.
In Gaza, it's somewhat different. I think there Hamas has a broader agenda, of which effecting a prisoner exchange with Israel is only one, and I would argue, even a secondary part. I think there Hamas's main objective is to compel Israel to accept a mutual cessation of hostilities, Israeli-Palestinian, and I think, even more important, of ensuring their right to govern. And I think, at least as far as the Israeli-Palestinian part of this is concerned, Hamas's main objective has been to send a very clear message, not only to Israel, but to all its adversaries, whether Israeli, Palestinian or foreign, to remind the world that political integration and democratic politics for them are an experiment, that they have alternatives, and if they're not allowed to exercise their democratic mandate, that they will not hesitate, if necessary, to exercise those alternatives.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Noam Chomsky, right now industrial world leaders gathered in St. Petersburg for the G8 meeting. What role does the U.S. have in this?
NOAM CHOMSKY: In the G8 meeting?
AMY GOODMAN: No. What role -- they're just gathered together -- in this, certainly the issue of Lebanon, Gaza, the Middle East is going to dominate that discussion. But how significant is the U.S. in this?
NOAM CHOMSKY: I think it will probably be very much like the UN resolution that you mentioned, which is -- I'm sorry, I couldn't hear what Mouin Rabbani was saying. But the UN resolution was -- the veto of the UN resolution is standard. That goes back decades. The U.S. has virtually alone been blocking the possibility of diplomatic settlement, censure of Israeli crimes and atrocities. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the U.S vetoed several resolutions right away, calling for an end to the fighting and so on, and that was a hideous invasion. And this continues through every administration. So I presume it will continue at the G8 meetings.
The United States regards Israel as virtually a militarized offshoot, and it protects it from criticism or actions and supports passively and, in fact, overtly supports its expansion, its attacks on Palestinians, its progressive takeover of what remains of Palestinian territory, and its acts to, well, actually realize a comment that Moshe Dayan made back in the early '70s when he was responsible for the Occupied Territories. He said to his cabinet colleagues that we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads. That's basically the policy. And I presume the U.S. will continue to advance that policy in one or another fashion.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky , I want to thank you for being with us. His latest book is Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy. And Mouin Rabbani, senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group, joining us from Jerusalem. Thank you both.
So, you agree that there is no defense of Israel's existance but the other way around which is how I see it...only I think Palestine has more of a right than Israel because they were drove out of their homes by occupiers. I think Palestians are more than willing to share but Israel seems to think enough is never enough and sharing becomes more and more like simply taking.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Depeche Mode - People Are People
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
So were different colours
And were different creeds
And different people
Have different needs
Its obvious you hate me
Though Ive done nothing wrong
Ive never even met you
So what could I have done
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
Help me understand
Help me understand
Now youre punching
And youre kicking
And youre shouting at me
And Im relying on your common decency
So far it hasnt surfaced
But Im sure it exists
It just takes a while to travel
From your head to your fist (head to your fists)
I cant understand what makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
I cant understand (people are people)
What makes a man (why should it be)
Hate another man
Help me understand...
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
actually, according to amnesty international israel kills 5 palestinian children for every 1 israeli child killed by the palestinians
also a alrge number of palestinian children live w/ severe malnutrition from the road blocks and other actions of israel
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/28/sm.23.html
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Violence is not the only health concern in the Middle East. Experts around the world are expressing concern over poverty and malnutrition in Palestinian areas. CNN's John Vause talked to one father about how his family is suffering under the curfew.....
VAUSE: Before the intifadah, he made a good living, about $40 U.S. a day at a bakery in Israel. He is one of an estimated 150,000 Palestinians who have lost their jobs because they're not allowed to leave the territories. Curfews which Israel says are crucial to stop terrorist attacks. In Gaza, where unemployment is close to 70 percent, Abdel Karim worries most about his boys.....
VAUSE: Two years ago, a study found less than 2 percent of children under 5 were moderately or severely malnourished. Now a study by Johns Hopkins University has found that malnutrition has jumped substantially; 31 percent suffering from mild to severe malnutrition; almost the same number are underweight.
Many say that curfews on the West Bank have stopped them from buying groceries. The main reason, though, according to the report, is money. They just can't afford to buy fruit, vegetables and meat.
PAUL MCCANN, U.N. RELIEF AGENCY: The World Bank survey found that something like 60 percent of Palestinians are living on less than $2 a day. That's approaching the kind of figures you see in sub- Saharan Africa.
VAUSE: Traditionally Palestinian families helped each other in a crisis, but after the last two years, most can't afford to. There's just nothing left to give.....
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
But I thought you said 'fuck em' was wrong somewhere before?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
.....
Oh and: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276174,00.html
This was sarcasm. Sorry you missed it. Besides, jeff and stone laughed.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Why do you presume that God supports and condones unrestrained military aggression, and the killing of civilians by an international pariah, and rogue state like Israel, which is engaging in an illegal occupation of anothers land? Strange that.
Biblically speaking, god "supported" quite a few wars.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
But if going to war can and will save people you love, is that not love? Im not applying this to this particular war, so relax, im speaking generally.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Going to war for "love" can really be going to war for fear, in the name of love. To pretend one agenda, and to deny the true inner agenda is an illusion. If we can't resolve our own inner conflicts, it's not a wonder they show up all around us. The problem is we can't blame others for our own problems. They are inescapable when they are in us.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Chomsky's great to listen to if you only want 1 side of the story all of the time.
How some linguistics professor became some Middle East "expert" is beyond hysterical. His popularity rests in the purpose he serves for those who hate Israel. He is a gift on a silver platter to Jew-baiters who glom onto people like him so they can say, "see, even a Jew realizes Israel's 'injustice'".
Folks on this board eat shit up like Chomsky, Finkelstein, and Zinn. That's the best coat of armor for their bigotry, to be able to drag out a token self-hating Jew for their side of the argument. Hey, at least one can argue you find Jews on all sides. Even Hamas's lawyer is a Brooklyn Jew named Stanley Cohen. Can you find any Arabs willing to go against the grain? If they do, they end up strung to a telephone pole.
Shiraz, take care of yourself and be well. I also wish well to the Arab civilians. I hate to oversimplify but ...
If the Arabs put down their arms, there would be no violence.
If the Jews put down their arms, there would be no Jews.