O.k, so if we are adherring to any type of mral equivalency here then it is logical to assume that for Palestinians to not respond to repeated unprovoked aggression from Israel means that every Israeli would have learned the lesson that you can kill Palestinians without any consequences?
You say that Israel was forced into its current actions? Really? And was Israel forced into re-occupying Gaza and administering massive destruction and loss of life? It seems like you are saying that Israel is constantly being forced into the tragic act of having to terrorize it's neighbours. If the U.S hadn't singulary vetoed every U/N resolution for the past 38 years offering a two state solution to this crises then perhaps this ongoing tragedy could have been avoided.
Are you bat shit crazy? what world do you live in? Israel does not act against the Palestinians without provocation. If the Palestinians had not started lobbing rockets into Israel from Gaza the minute Israel withdrew completely from Gaza, and then crossed the border to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil, there would have been no Israeli actions against the Palestinians in Gaza whatsoever. Period. Yes, Israel is constantly being forced to act in its own defense because Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Syria, and Iran and many many others, refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and strive constantly to attack her. As for a two state solution, that is now accepted by virtually every Israeli, and is the stated policy of the Israeli government. A two state solution is what Israel offered the Palestinians in 2000. A two state solution is what Arafat walked away from. So don't you dare lecture me or anyone else, about Israel not being willing to live in peace with its neighbors. We want nothing in the world more than that. I'm sorry, but this is too much. This world is sick. Fucking sick.
Ok, you are saying that Israel killed UN soldiers on purpose. I won't even get into this because I think that this is ground we've already trodden. It has already been convincingly argued on this thread that Israel did not deliberately target those soldiers. If you continue to indulge in such nonsense that's your business.
Now, I didn't say anything about bulldozing houses, or shooting 9 year olds, or any of the rest of this nonsense. I said that unlike Hezbollah, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad for that matter, Israel's military takes precautions to operate away from Israeli civilians so that any fire directed at them (the IDF) will not result in accidental Israeli civilian deaths. If Hezbollah operated in the same fashion we would see far far fewer Lebanese civilian deaths. And please, stop with the ridiculous statements about alleged Israeli atrocities. If you can point to a specific case I will address that, but don't give me any more of this "the big bad blood sucking Israelis are rampaging around eating Palestinian babies" bullshit!
"..the ridiculous statements about alleged Israeli atrocities"?
The above statement proves that you are not serious about what you say, but are merely arguing for the sake of it. Maybe something to do with egos. I dont' know. But if you say you need me to find examples of Israeli atrocities for you then you are obviously not serious. Unless you have been living in a coccoon for the past 30 years and are actually unaware of a thing called the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West bank. Suffice it to say, I could name hundreds of Israeli atrocities. And you know that.
I'm well aware that the IDF has been operating in Gaza for the last few weeks. I'm living in Israel at the moment so please don't presume to lecture me on what is and is not going on. The IDF is in Gaza because despite the fact that Israel pulled all of its settlers and soldiers out of Gaza a year ago Palestinian terrorist continued to fire rockets at Israel from Gaza and raided Israel to kill and capture Israeli soldiers. The IDF presence in Gaza is not an occupation. It is a limited incursion meant to fight terrorists who continued to attack Israel even after they had lost the Israeli occupation as an excuse.
So are you saying that the in the period since some of the illegal Israel settlers were withdrawn from Gaza, that the IDF didn't continue to carry out house demolitions, extra-judical assassinations and other illegal activities? Perhaps the media in Israel prevented you from hearing about these things?
I am sitting in my apartment in Jerusalem right now watching the news as I write this. The Israeli news just screened a video taken by the Israeli air force showing missiles being fired from right outside the building in Qana that Israel just bombed in which 57 people were killed. The video clearly shows the missiles being fired and the terrorists then retreating into the building. I do not mean for this to be a dismissal of the tragedy of the deaths of all the people who were in that building, but I remember someone saying that Israel was hitting targets that had no relation to Hezbollah, and that Hezbollah avoids civilian areas. This video proves this to be false.
It certainly sounds like a justification to me. Similar to your cloudy justification for torture in a previous post. I suppose it's difficult for you to see the wood for the trees. I personally have no affiliation with the British government and do not believe that they speak for me. And so it's hard for me to relate to people who identify themselves and their 'country' with their government and military. Perhaps the propaganda system in other countries is more powerful?
So are you saying that the in the period since some of the illegal Israel settlers were withdrawn from Gaza, that the IDF didn't continue to carry out house demolitions, extra-judical assassinations and other illegal activities? Perhaps the media in Israel prevented you from hearing about these things?
House demolitions? No, they have not been carried out since Israel withdrew. Assassinations of terrorists, you bet, because it is a proven method of fighting terrorism. If terrorists didn't attack Israel, Israel wouldn't kill anyone. The Israeli media prevented me from hearing about it?? The Israeli media is free to print whatever it likes and uses this freedom to report on every aspect of Israeli military actions. There is a thriving debate in Israel on all of Israel's actions. Honestly you less and less sense with every post and expose your complete ignorance of the situation here.
"..the ridiculous statements about alleged Israeli atrocities"?
The above statement proves that you are not serious about what you say, but are merely arguing for the sake of it. Maybe something to with egos. I dont' know. But if you say you need me to find examples of Israeli atrocities for you then you are obviously not serious. Unless you have been living in a coccoon for the past 30 years and are actually unaware of a thing called the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West bank. Suffice it to say, I could name hundreds of Israeli atrocities. And you know that.
I don't agree with every Israeli action. The occupation was a mistake and was immoral. However, Israel tried repeatedly to end the occupation only to find that the more they gave up to the Palestinians the more they were hated and attacked. The fact is the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced. Unlike you I can take a critical look at things and come to an informed opinion. And please don't say you pity us. It makes me sick to think that someone as incapable of free thinking as you would pity me.
Now, I didn't say anything about bulldozing houses, or shooting 9 year olds, or any of the rest of this nonsense....please, stop with the ridiculous statements about alleged Israeli atrocities. If you can point to a specific case I will address that, but don't give me any more of this "the big bad blood sucking Israelis are rampaging around eating Palestinian babies" bullshit!
Just a few examples of the actions of your benevolent government and military which you are so keen to defend and support....
I don't agree with every Israeli action. The occupation was a mistake and was immoral. However, Israel tried repeatedly to end the occupation only to find that the more they gave up to the Palestinians the more they were hated and attacked. The fact is the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced. Unlike you I can take a critical look at things and come to an informed opinion. And please don't say you pity us. It makes me sick to think that someone as incapable of free thinking as you would pity me.
Your first sentence is correct, and I commend you for admitting as much. However, you then proceed to veer from the path of rationality with your following comments about "..the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced." This is simply not true, as you know. All the Palestinian military factions observed ceasefires at Israels promise to adhere to the 'peace plan', and in light of the partial withdrawals from Gaza. They them found themselves subjected to continual Israeli aggression to the point where they were forced to end their ceasefires.
I do not hate Israelis dayan. I hate your government, because like mine, they are liars and murderers.
That's it for me. I'm with Shiraz. No sense in debating with someone without any sense of his own.
Bye, Bye.
Dayan
you know i been watching this thread, ...it makes no sense to me that if you two, ie shiraz and dayan, are surrounded by bombs and explosions, how you are so strong to come to a pj jam board....grow the flock up..people try to empathize and i think that you aren't really from mid-east. forgive me, but i kinda wonder how you can commit yourself to a message board if ya have people undergoing so much devastation....
i'm certain you'll be back just like you always are..i'm certain you will log out and soon a new member will join the ranks of the pj board..with a similar style and a different name...like a friend of mine says, "trust no-one".....did it make you get a rise to get all this response....?????? why don't you go to the nearest red-cross center and give out some help: why don't you give instead of take eveyone's time out????? oh, maybe it's because you travel on a one-way street...and i completely mean no disrespect to you if you are real and sincere, but if you are just another twit playing a head game......i hope you get everything you deserve for your deceptive ways.....i know who you are and exactly where you are coming from......seems the earth has two poles: one north and one south...hmmm that means bipolar, now doesnt' it....and i think i've once again ran into the ghost, whom i have come to know as:.......ootf...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
you know i been watching this thread, ...it makes no sense to me that if you two, ie shiraz and dayan, are surrounded by bombs and explosions, how you are so strong to come to a pj jam board....grow the flock up..people try to empathize and i think that you aren't really from mid-east. forgive me, but i kinda wonder how you can commit yourself to a message board if ya have people undergoing so much devastation....
i'm certain you'll be back just like you always are..i'm certain you will log out and soon a new member will join the ranks of the pj board..with a similar style and a different name...like a friend of mine says, "trust no-one".....did it make you get a rise to get all this response....?????? why don't you go to the nearest red-cross center and give out some help: why don't you give instead of take eveyone's time out????? oh, maybe it's because you travel on a one-way street...and i completely mean no disrespect to you if you are real and sincere, but if you are just another twit playing a head game......i hope you get everything you deserve for your deceptive ways.....i know who you are and exactly where you are coming from......seems the earth has two poles: one north and one south...hmmm that means bipolar, now doesnt' it....and i think i've once again ran into the ghost, whom i have come to know as:.......ootf...
Someone is a bit paranoid...
My name is Shiraz, I'm 29 years old woman, I live in port city of Haifa - Israel. Haven't been out of my house for about 2 weeks because my city is under attack by the Hizbullah. Got lot's of troubles getting sleep at night, every little noise makes me jump. Since I can't go out, I've got nothing else to do but use the internet in between alarms.
The thing I don't understand is why do you have so many trouble believing I'm from Israel? Do you think we don't have internet connections here? Do you think we're not suppose to speek English? Really, lets here your reasons.
p.s: I've been reading the Message Pit for years, being a pearl jam fan. I signed up just before the new album was out, cause things were changing in this site and I wanted to have the options I had before (searching) and the possibility to use the new option tools (thread serching etc').
My name is Shiraz, I'm 29 years old woman, I live in port city of Haifa - Israel. Haven't been out of my house for about 2 weeks because my city is under attack by the Hizbullah. Got lot's of troubles getting sleep at night, every little noise makes me jump. Since I can't go out, I've got nothing else to do but use the internet in between alarms.
The thing I don't understand is why do you have so many trouble believing I'm from Israel? Do you think we don't have internet connections here? Do you think we're not suppose to speek English? Really, lets here your reasons.
p.s: I've been reading the Message Pit for years, being a pearl jam fan. I signed up just before the new album was out, cause things were changing in this site and I wanted to have the options I had before (searching) and the possibility to use the new option tools (thread serching etc').
My name is Shiraz, I'm 29 years old woman, I live in port city of Haifa - Israel. Haven't been out of my house for about 2 weeks because my city is under attack by the Hizbullah. Got lot's of troubles getting sleep at night, every little noise makes me jump. Since I can't go out, I've got nothing else to do but use the internet in between alarms.
The thing I don't understand is why do you have so many trouble believing I'm from Israel? Do you think we don't have internet connections here? Do you think we're not suppose to speek English? Really, lets here your reasons.
p.s: I've been reading the Message Pit for years, being a pearl jam fan. I signed up just before the new album was out, cause things were changing in this site and I wanted to have the options I had before (searching) and the possibility to use the new option tools (thread serching etc').
like i said earlier, i mean you no disrepsect, shiraz, you just seem alot like a person who i call ootf...and honestly, i had no idea that mid-eastern women could be liberated enough to speak on internet, let alone have such beautiful english spelling.....sorry...but i can't buy the idea that anyone in land of bombs and destruccion have mind or assets to get anything out....so call me paranoid, but it's certainly ironic how you came back so quickly to debate?????if my commentary didn't have some punch, then why have you come back to talk? i thought i read that you were finished at this thread....i just think that we all know what's going on, don't need to be a poly science major to figure out that people are dying and land is being destroyed. how did you learn such beautiful english? it's almost perfect; in fact, it's better than most native speakers....and i don't understand how you got rid of all the a's in your writing, becasue i know for a fact that folks who come from mideast, tend to lose phonetics...this is one reason why i question you.....like i said before, i think you are pmsing and representative of the person whom i call one of two faces...ootf...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
you know i been watching this thread, ...it makes no sense to me that if you two, ie shiraz and dayan, are surrounded by bombs and explosions, how you are so strong to come to a pj jam board....grow the flock up..people try to empathize and i think that you aren't really from mid-east. forgive me, but i kinda wonder how you can commit yourself to a message board if ya have people undergoing so much devastation....
i'm certain you'll be back just like you always are..i'm certain you will log out and soon a new member will join the ranks of the pj board..with a similar style and a different name...like a friend of mine says, "trust no-one".....did it make you get a rise to get all this response....?????? why don't you go to the nearest red-cross center and give out some help: why don't you give instead of take eveyone's time out????? oh, maybe it's because you travel on a one-way street...and i completely mean no disrespect to you if you are real and sincere, but if you are just another twit playing a head game......i hope you get everything you deserve for your deceptive ways.....i know who you are and exactly where you are coming from......seems the earth has two poles: one north and one south...hmmm that means bipolar, now doesnt' it....and i think i've once again ran into the ghost, whom i have come to know as:.......ootf...
paranoid indeed.
My name is Ari. I post under Dayan because I find it appropriate. Don't worry if you don't get the reference. You'd have to know something about Israel's history to get it, and I have the distinct impression that is too much to ask for here. I grew up in the states but spend a significant amount of time in Israel, where my family owns an apartment. We live in Jerusalem when we are here, which thank God has been far enough away from the northern border to remain safe, though just a week ago a suicide bombing was just narrowly avoided in the center of town. I don't who this ghost character is you're talking about, but honestly I'd recommend you seek some help.
not a ton here, i only weigh 135.....lbs....u don't know wtf you are talking about, and i have a feeling that your israeli friends know exactly what i'm talking about....so, feel confident in your stance of knowing all..again, i mean you no disrespect as well....i just question the issues i mentioned above and from past experiences, i tend to question....so , tell me why you think i shouldn't question......??????
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
paranoid indeed.
My name is Ari. I post under Dayan because I find it appropriate. Don't worry if you don't get the reference. You'd have to know something about Israel's history to get it, and I have the distinct impression that is too much to ask for here.
you are exactly right, i don't know anything about israel or the middleeast, except......that i can't understand how two people can be communicating to a bunch of Americans while entire habitat is being blown to smitherings.....
*/edit i will find out what dayan means; you can bet on that....!!!!!
I grew up in the states but spend a significant amount of time in Israel, where my family owns an apartment. We live in Jerusalem when we are here, which thank God has been far enough away from the northern border to remain safe, though just a week ago a suicide bombing was just narrowly avoided in the center of town.
and this is as sincere as i can be, i am sorry for the events around mid-east; out of most people, i am probably one of the few who cannot celebrate and enjoy life freely, when i know that some life is being f*kt with.
I don't who this ghost character is you're talking about, but honestly I'd recommend you seek some help.
sorry, help i sought gave me plenty of insights and so, perpetrators of malisciousness and deciept better be on their guard..yep i am one pissed on human being, becasue the ghost knows damn well who they are and they are here( for that matter, why i am even here on this particular thread i have watched for two weeks); i'll take you up on that advice about getting help.......calling my therapist as i type.....
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
As for "the big bad blood sucking Israelis are rampaging around eating Palestinian babies"; what have you been smoking?
I try to get out and they pull me back in! Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Everything you reference here is tragic, but I don't think any of it represents more then the terrible loss of life associated with armed conflicts. I've already noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave. The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell. The rest is tragic, but not criminal.
Your first sentence is correct, and I commend you for admitting as much. However, you then proceed to veer from the path of rationality with your following comments about "..the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced." This is simply not true, as you know. All the Palestinian military factions observed ceasefires at Israels promise to adhere to the 'peace plan', and in light of the partial withdrawals from Gaza. They them found themselves subjected to continual Israeli aggression to the point where they were forced to end their ceasefires.
I do not hate Israelis dayan. I hate your government, because like mine, they are liars and murderers.
Please don't tell me what I know. I know what I know, and I'm sure I know it a lot better than you. You're narrative about the peaceful Palestinian factions is laughable. If they were truly so peaceful they wouldn't be targeted by Israel.
like i said earlier, i mean you no disrepsect, shiraz, you just seem alot like a person who i call ootf...and honestly, i had no idea that mid-eastern women could be liberated enough to speak on internet, let alone have such beautiful english spelling.....sorry...but i can't buy the idea that anyone in land of bombs and destruccion have mind or assets to get anything out....so call me paranoid, but it's certainly ironic how you came back so quickly to debate?????if my commentary didn't have some punch, then why have you come back to talk? i thought i read that you were finished at this thread....i just think that we all know what's going on, don't need to be a poly science major to figure out that people are dying and land is being destroyed. how did you learn such beautiful english? it's almost perfect; in fact, it's better than most native speakers....and i don't understand how you got rid of all the a's in your writing, becasue i know for a fact that folks who come from mideast, tend to lose phonetics...this is one reason why i question you.....like i said before, i think you are pmsing and representative of the person whom i call one of two faces...ootf...
This is about the craziest shit I've ever seen. If you don't know that woman in Israel have the same rights and are just as liberated as anywhere else in the West than you know nothing at all about Israel.
This is about the craziest shit I've ever seen. If you don't know that woman in Israel have the same rights and are just as liberated as anywhere else in the West than you know nothing at all about Israel.
i guess you didn't read where i said i know nothing; i never claimed to; for once maybe you got some real truth...but you just think i'm picking at ya becasue you allegedly are from middle/east...not so...i'm picking at ya, becasue i don't believe you are who you say you are....and that's all.....after 22 pages of thread, i think that if a person was really affected; he or she would want respite, not embelish oneself in discussion about horrifics..
i've called you out; and now, you have to excuse me, unless you want to continue in a personal note...if you are really an israeli woman; power to ya...power to the peaceful....if you are ootf and friends, then we have a score to settle...i have no more time to invest on this thread; it is fanning fuel for the fire.....enjoy the heat...
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
This is about the craziest shit I've ever seen. If you don't know that woman in Israel have the same rights and are just as liberated as anywhere else in the West than you know nothing at all about Israel.
We (=women) are MORE liberated here than most places in the world, US included.
I try to get out and they pull me back in! Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Everything you reference here is tragic, but I don't think any of it represents more then the terrible loss of life associated with armed conflicts. I've already noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave. The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell. The rest is tragic, but not criminal.
"The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell."
I am amazed at the lengths to which you will go to defend your viewpoint. You know full well that there were no explosives in the sand. An independent iinvestigation found Israels claims that that there were explosives in the sand laughable. The Israelis had been firing shells from the sea all morning. Why perpetuate these sick lies Davan?
"...an expert working for the Human Rights Watch said the Palestinians' injuries were not consistent with a blast taking place beneath them.
"It has been suggested by some that the family was killed by a land mine, and this is patently not the case," Mark Garlasco said.
"All of the evidence is pointing to a 155mm shell as having killed and injured the Palestinians here on the beach," he said.
"My assessment [is] that it's likely that this was incoming artillery fire that landed on the beach and was fired by the Israelis from the north of Gaza."
Reacting to earlier reports that the Israeli inquiry would blame the blast on a mine planted by Hamas, a Hamas spokesman accused Israel of "shying away from its responsibilities over this atrocious crime".
"These Israeli allegations are false and lack any credibility," Ghazi Hamad said.
Israel tried repeatedly to end the occupation only to find that the more they gave up to the Palestinians the more they were hated and attacked. The fact is the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced.
BBC News - Saturday, 10 June 2006
Hamas militants vow to end truce
The shelling has caused outrage among Palestinians
The military wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas has said it will no longer respect a self-imposed truce.
In a statement on its website, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigade said Israeli "massacres" had spurred the decision.
Seven people, including three children, died on Friday when Israeli shells hit a beach in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials say.
Hamas government spokesman Ghazi Hamad told the BBC that Israel's attacks justified the move to end the truce.
"No-one can say to our people you have to be patient, you have to be polite," he said.
"It is our right to fight the occupation, it is our right to defend ourselves, it is our right to protect our people."
It was a horrible scene, unbelievable. I'm not going to enjoy the summer on that shore for the rest of my life
Sami
Gaza
The Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declared three days of mourning following the bombing.
Hamas's armed wing posted a message on its website and distributed leaflets declaring the end of a ceasefire that had held since February 2005.
"The Israeli massacres represent a direct opening battle and that means the earthquake in the Zionist cities will resume and the herds of occupiers have no choice but to prepare the coffins or the departing luggage," the statement read.[/b]
The BBC's Simon Wilson in Jerusalem says there have been similar threats to respond to previous attacks, but the official nature of this response appears significant.
'Scattered remains'
The statement came hours after the seven reported deaths on a beach near the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya. At least 30 people were wounded.
Eyewitness Sami Yousef told the BBC News website people lying on the ground badly injured, crying.
"There were remains scattered along the beach. Three children were there, two with severe deep cuts in their heads," he said.
TV pictures suggest a family was on a picnic when the disaster struck
"One girl was just screaming, crying out for her father."
The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza says it looks very much as if this was a family enjoying their Friday afternoon off on the beach when disaster struck.
For many months, the Israelis have regularly shelled open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their crudely made missiles into nearby Israeli territory.
An Israeli army spokesman said chief of staff Dan Halutz had ordered an immediate stop to all artillery shelling of Gaza while an investigation was carried out into the incident.
Four other people were also killed in separate Israeli air strikes in northern Gaza on Friday, Palestinians said.
And on Thursday, a senior Palestinian security official close to the Hamas government, Jamal Abu Samhadana, was killed in an Israeli air strike, sparking angry demonstrations in Rafah, southern Gaza.
Speaking before the Hamas statement, Mr Abbas condemned the Israeli strikes in Gaza.
"What the Israeli occupation forces are doing in the Gaza Strip constitutes a war of extermination and bloody massacres against our people," he said.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply disturbed" by the killings and called for a full investigation.
The foreign ministers of Russia and the UK also condemned the strike.
I try to get out and they pull me back in! Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Everything you reference here is tragic, but I don't think any of it represents more then the terrible loss of life associated with armed conflicts. I've already noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave. The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell. The rest is tragic, but not criminal.
in a previous topic you asked about international law. Well, international law, in the 4th geneva convention states that all the measures must be ensured to avoid kill of civilians. This clearly didn't happen here. I have a question for you: do you think that if the building would have been full of Israeli people, instead than Lebanese, along with some Hezbullah fighters, the israeli army would have bombed it in the same way?
However, Israel tried repeatedly to end the occupation only to find that the more they gave up to the Palestinians the more they were hated and attacked. The fact is the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced.
I try to get out and they pull me back in! Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Everything you reference here is tragic, but I don't think any of it represents more then the terrible loss of life associated with armed conflicts. I've already noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave. The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell. The rest is tragic, but not criminal.
You "..have noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave." So again you attempt to justify the massacre of 56 civilians, 36 of whom were children, just as yesterday you attempted to justify the killing of the 4 U.N observers, and the use of torture by the IDF. It is therefore obvious that you will attempt to defend all and any atrocity carried out by your government.
By the way, the 56 people murdered by your people yesterday were sheltering in the basement of the 3 storey house from the Israeli bombardment. This was a war crime. Pure and simple. Though no doubt you will try your hardest to justify it.
The fact that so many Lebanese still remain in the south of the country in their towns and villages is because when they have attempted to flee at the behest of the Israelis, they have then been targeted on the roads north, along with U.N vehcles and red cross ambulances. But again, I'm sure you will try your hardest to justify this.
Comments
Are you bat shit crazy? what world do you live in? Israel does not act against the Palestinians without provocation. If the Palestinians had not started lobbing rockets into Israel from Gaza the minute Israel withdrew completely from Gaza, and then crossed the border to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil, there would have been no Israeli actions against the Palestinians in Gaza whatsoever. Period. Yes, Israel is constantly being forced to act in its own defense because Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Syria, and Iran and many many others, refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and strive constantly to attack her. As for a two state solution, that is now accepted by virtually every Israeli, and is the stated policy of the Israeli government. A two state solution is what Israel offered the Palestinians in 2000. A two state solution is what Arafat walked away from. So don't you dare lecture me or anyone else, about Israel not being willing to live in peace with its neighbors. We want nothing in the world more than that. I'm sorry, but this is too much. This world is sick. Fucking sick.
"..the ridiculous statements about alleged Israeli atrocities"?
The above statement proves that you are not serious about what you say, but are merely arguing for the sake of it. Maybe something to do with egos. I dont' know. But if you say you need me to find examples of Israeli atrocities for you then you are obviously not serious. Unless you have been living in a coccoon for the past 30 years and are actually unaware of a thing called the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West bank. Suffice it to say, I could name hundreds of Israeli atrocities. And you know that.
So are you saying that the in the period since some of the illegal Israel settlers were withdrawn from Gaza, that the IDF didn't continue to carry out house demolitions, extra-judical assassinations and other illegal activities? Perhaps the media in Israel prevented you from hearing about these things?
It certainly sounds like a justification to me. Similar to your cloudy justification for torture in a previous post. I suppose it's difficult for you to see the wood for the trees. I personally have no affiliation with the British government and do not believe that they speak for me. And so it's hard for me to relate to people who identify themselves and their 'country' with their government and military. Perhaps the propaganda system in other countries is more powerful?
House demolitions? No, they have not been carried out since Israel withdrew. Assassinations of terrorists, you bet, because it is a proven method of fighting terrorism. If terrorists didn't attack Israel, Israel wouldn't kill anyone. The Israeli media prevented me from hearing about it?? The Israeli media is free to print whatever it likes and uses this freedom to report on every aspect of Israeli military actions. There is a thriving debate in Israel on all of Israel's actions. Honestly you less and less sense with every post and expose your complete ignorance of the situation here.
I don't agree with every Israeli action. The occupation was a mistake and was immoral. However, Israel tried repeatedly to end the occupation only to find that the more they gave up to the Palestinians the more they were hated and attacked. The fact is the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced. Unlike you I can take a critical look at things and come to an informed opinion. And please don't say you pity us. It makes me sick to think that someone as incapable of free thinking as you would pity me.
Bye, Bye.
Dayan
Just a few examples of the actions of your benevolent government and military which you are so keen to defend and support....
54 Lebanese civilians killed in an Israeli attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5229058.stm
Palestinians killed on Gaza beach
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065008.stm
Israeli troops kill Palestinian boy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1505601.stm
Palestinian dies as protests continue
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/756660.stm
Palestinian killed in Gaza blast
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1531888.stm
Israel demolishes Palestinian homes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1431437.stm
Stone throwers targeted by Israeli helicopter gunships.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/pm/1339980.stm
13-year-old Palestinian girl killed by Israeli forces
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4022109.stm
Israel denies breaking ceasefire
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1346341.stm
As for "the big bad blood sucking Israelis are rampaging around eating Palestinian babies"; what have you been smoking?
Bye bye!
Your first sentence is correct, and I commend you for admitting as much. However, you then proceed to veer from the path of rationality with your following comments about "..the more territory Israel turned over to the Palestinians the more terrorism they faced." This is simply not true, as you know. All the Palestinian military factions observed ceasefires at Israels promise to adhere to the 'peace plan', and in light of the partial withdrawals from Gaza. They them found themselves subjected to continual Israeli aggression to the point where they were forced to end their ceasefires.
I do not hate Israelis dayan. I hate your government, because like mine, they are liars and murderers.
i'm certain you'll be back just like you always are..i'm certain you will log out and soon a new member will join the ranks of the pj board..with a similar style and a different name...like a friend of mine says, "trust no-one".....did it make you get a rise to get all this response....?????? why don't you go to the nearest red-cross center and give out some help: why don't you give instead of take eveyone's time out????? oh, maybe it's because you travel on a one-way street...and i completely mean no disrespect to you if you are real and sincere, but if you are just another twit playing a head game......i hope you get everything you deserve for your deceptive ways.....i know who you are and exactly where you are coming from......seems the earth has two poles: one north and one south...hmmm that means bipolar, now doesnt' it....and i think i've once again ran into the ghost, whom i have come to know as:.......ootf...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Someone is a bit paranoid...
My name is Shiraz, I'm 29 years old woman, I live in port city of Haifa - Israel. Haven't been out of my house for about 2 weeks because my city is under attack by the Hizbullah. Got lot's of troubles getting sleep at night, every little noise makes me jump. Since I can't go out, I've got nothing else to do but use the internet in between alarms.
The thing I don't understand is why do you have so many trouble believing I'm from Israel? Do you think we don't have internet connections here? Do you think we're not suppose to speek English? Really, lets here your reasons.
p.s: I've been reading the Message Pit for years, being a pearl jam fan. I signed up just before the new album was out, cause things were changing in this site and I wanted to have the options I had before (searching) and the possibility to use the new option tools (thread serching etc').
There are a ton of paranoid ones on the board.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
paranoid indeed.
My name is Ari. I post under Dayan because I find it appropriate. Don't worry if you don't get the reference. You'd have to know something about Israel's history to get it, and I have the distinct impression that is too much to ask for here. I grew up in the states but spend a significant amount of time in Israel, where my family owns an apartment. We live in Jerusalem when we are here, which thank God has been far enough away from the northern border to remain safe, though just a week ago a suicide bombing was just narrowly avoided in the center of town. I don't who this ghost character is you're talking about, but honestly I'd recommend you seek some help.
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
*/edit i will find out what dayan means; you can bet on that....!!!!!
and this is as sincere as i can be, i am sorry for the events around mid-east; out of most people, i am probably one of the few who cannot celebrate and enjoy life freely, when i know that some life is being f*kt with. sorry, help i sought gave me plenty of insights and so, perpetrators of malisciousness and deciept better be on their guard..yep i am one pissed on human being, becasue the ghost knows damn well who they are and they are here( for that matter, why i am even here on this particular thread i have watched for two weeks); i'll take you up on that advice about getting help.......calling my therapist as i type.....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I try to get out and they pull me back in! Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Everything you reference here is tragic, but I don't think any of it represents more then the terrible loss of life associated with armed conflicts. I've already noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave. The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell. The rest is tragic, but not criminal.
Please don't tell me what I know. I know what I know, and I'm sure I know it a lot better than you. You're narrative about the peaceful Palestinian factions is laughable. If they were truly so peaceful they wouldn't be targeted by Israel.
This is about the craziest shit I've ever seen. If you don't know that woman in Israel have the same rights and are just as liberated as anywhere else in the West than you know nothing at all about Israel.
i've called you out; and now, you have to excuse me, unless you want to continue in a personal note...if you are really an israeli woman; power to ya...power to the peaceful....if you are ootf and friends, then we have a score to settle...i have no more time to invest on this thread; it is fanning fuel for the fire.....enjoy the heat...
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
We (=women) are MORE liberated here than most places in the world, US included.
"The explosion on the Gaza beach has been shown to have been caused by explosives buried in the sand, probably by Hamas, and not as first reported by an Israeli shell."
I am amazed at the lengths to which you will go to defend your viewpoint. You know full well that there were no explosives in the sand. An independent iinvestigation found Israels claims that that there were explosives in the sand laughable. The Israelis had been firing shells from the sea all morning. Why perpetuate these sick lies Davan?
"...an expert working for the Human Rights Watch said the Palestinians' injuries were not consistent with a blast taking place beneath them.
"It has been suggested by some that the family was killed by a land mine, and this is patently not the case," Mark Garlasco said.
"All of the evidence is pointing to a 155mm shell as having killed and injured the Palestinians here on the beach," he said.
"My assessment [is] that it's likely that this was incoming artillery fire that landed on the beach and was fired by the Israelis from the north of Gaza."
Reacting to earlier reports that the Israeli inquiry would blame the blast on a mine planted by Hamas, a Hamas spokesman accused Israel of "shying away from its responsibilities over this atrocious crime".
"These Israeli allegations are false and lack any credibility," Ghazi Hamad said.
Long live justice and those that fight against injustice and corrupt militaristic rogue states like Israel and the U.S.
*thumbs up*
BBC News - Saturday, 10 June 2006
Hamas militants vow to end truce
The shelling has caused outrage among Palestinians
The military wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas has said it will no longer respect a self-imposed truce.
In a statement on its website, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigade said Israeli "massacres" had spurred the decision.
Seven people, including three children, died on Friday when Israeli shells hit a beach in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials say.
Hamas government spokesman Ghazi Hamad told the BBC that Israel's attacks justified the move to end the truce.
"No-one can say to our people you have to be patient, you have to be polite," he said.
"It is our right to fight the occupation, it is our right to defend ourselves, it is our right to protect our people."
It was a horrible scene, unbelievable. I'm not going to enjoy the summer on that shore for the rest of my life
Sami
Gaza
The Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declared three days of mourning following the bombing.
Hamas's armed wing posted a message on its website and distributed leaflets declaring the end of a ceasefire that had held since February 2005.
"The Israeli massacres represent a direct opening battle and that means the earthquake in the Zionist cities will resume and the herds of occupiers have no choice but to prepare the coffins or the departing luggage," the statement read.[/b]
The BBC's Simon Wilson in Jerusalem says there have been similar threats to respond to previous attacks, but the official nature of this response appears significant.
'Scattered remains'
The statement came hours after the seven reported deaths on a beach near the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya. At least 30 people were wounded.
Eyewitness Sami Yousef told the BBC News website people lying on the ground badly injured, crying.
"There were remains scattered along the beach. Three children were there, two with severe deep cuts in their heads," he said.
TV pictures suggest a family was on a picnic when the disaster struck
"One girl was just screaming, crying out for her father."
The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza says it looks very much as if this was a family enjoying their Friday afternoon off on the beach when disaster struck.
For many months, the Israelis have regularly shelled open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their crudely made missiles into nearby Israeli territory.
An Israeli army spokesman said chief of staff Dan Halutz had ordered an immediate stop to all artillery shelling of Gaza while an investigation was carried out into the incident.
Four other people were also killed in separate Israeli air strikes in northern Gaza on Friday, Palestinians said.
And on Thursday, a senior Palestinian security official close to the Hamas government, Jamal Abu Samhadana, was killed in an Israeli air strike, sparking angry demonstrations in Rafah, southern Gaza.
Speaking before the Hamas statement, Mr Abbas condemned the Israeli strikes in Gaza.
"What the Israeli occupation forces are doing in the Gaza Strip constitutes a war of extermination and bloody massacres against our people," he said.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply disturbed" by the killings and called for a full investigation.
The foreign ministers of Russia and the UK also condemned the strike.
www.amnesty.org.uk
www.amnesty.org.uk
You "..have noted elsewhere that the building hit in Qana was being used to store missiles and missile launchers, and that civilians were warned to leave." So again you attempt to justify the massacre of 56 civilians, 36 of whom were children, just as yesterday you attempted to justify the killing of the 4 U.N observers, and the use of torture by the IDF. It is therefore obvious that you will attempt to defend all and any atrocity carried out by your government.
By the way, the 56 people murdered by your people yesterday were sheltering in the basement of the 3 storey house from the Israeli bombardment. This was a war crime. Pure and simple. Though no doubt you will try your hardest to justify it.
The fact that so many Lebanese still remain in the south of the country in their towns and villages is because when they have attempted to flee at the behest of the Israelis, they have then been targeted on the roads north, along with U.N vehcles and red cross ambulances. But again, I'm sure you will try your hardest to justify this.