Pushing the Envelope

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

you werent dictating. you were expressing your opinion with gusto, thats all. sometimes even i dont know why people dont seem to give a shit. and why theyre happy with what their various governments get up to and do in their name.

and sometimes I go through short phases of thinking 'fuck the lot of it' 'I couldn't give a fuck'... it generally doesn't last very long though.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

and sometimes I go through short phases of thinking 'fuck the lot of it' 'I couldn't give a fuck'... it generally doesn't last very long though.

me too helen, me too.

sweetpotato

apparently "thinking out of the box" = talking down to and being total asses towards anyone who doesn't see the same conspiracies you do.

interesting definition of openmindedness!

angelica

sweetpotato wrote:

apparently "thinking out of the box" = talking down to and being total asses towards anyone who doesn't see the same conspiracies you do.

interesting definition of openmindedness!

I'm the first one to admit when anyone condescends to anyone else.........they set themselves into imbalance, whether their points have truth to them or not.

Imbalance and humanness does not invalidate kernels of truth...or progressive thought.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

apparently "thinking out of the box" = talking down to and being total asses towards anyone who doesn't see the same conspiracies you do.

interesting definition of openmindedness!

Of course, me and Helen couldn't possibly comment. We don't have conspiracies in Ireland yet.

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Of course, me and Helen couldn't possibly comment. We don't have conspiracies in Ireland yet.

:D:D


^^^Look! Three little green leprechauns!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

:D:D


^^^Look! Three little green leprechauns!

Does the fact that the rest of the world thinks leprechauns are a myth count as a conspiracy?

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Does the fact that the rest of the world thinks leprechauns are a myth count as a conspiracy?

They do!? You're shittin' me!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

They do!? You're shittin' me!

I know! It's incredible! Next thing your know, they'll be saying all Irish people aren't actually called Willie McFinnegan. :eek:

angelica

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I know! It's incredible! Next thing your know, they'll be saying all Irish people aren't actually called Willie McFinnegan. :eek:

hahaha!!

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I know! It's incredible! Next thing your know, they'll be saying all Irish people aren't actually called Willie McFinnegan. :eek:

damn you for cracking me up all day!!!

rebornFixer

Maybe I am just a prick today, but no. I don't think these people should be thanked. I think that conspiracy theories are useful only if there is some tangible evidence to back them up. Critical thinkers with an empirical mindset should be thanked. The message board equivalents of shock-jocks should not be thanked.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

damn you for cracking me up all day!!!

I'd be flattered, but we Irish don't have "jokes" yet.

angelica

reborncareerist wrote:

Maybe I am just a prick today, but no. I don't think these people should be thanked. I think that conspiracy theories are useful only if there is some tangible evidence to back them up. Critical thinkers with an empirical mindset should be thanked. The message board equivalents of shock-jocks should not be thanked.

I've seen "conspiracy theorists" give tangible empirical evidence over and over...often they are interpreting the empirical evidence differently than someone else - someone more "mainstream" for example.

And many times I see that they are dismissed without serious consideration, based on the inability of the person dismissing them to objectively consider input that goes against their own basic sense of reality. In such cases - and it happens OFTEN on this board!!!...- it is a lack of tangible evidence on the part of the one doing the dismissing that causes such an individual to shut down their OWN ability to be logical and objective. All because they cannot grasp a different paradigm and consider facts and information outside their own sphere of comfort. That is not due to a lack in the person putting forth the theory, but rather due to a lack in ability to understand what is being said and to effectively dispute it.

Since you value one type of intelligence over other types that are considered by the experts to be equally valid (ie: you value critical thinkers with an empirical mindset ), you reveal your own bias.

Abookamongstthemany

reborncareerist wrote:

Maybe I am just a prick today, but no. I don't think these people should be thanked. I think that conspiracy theories are useful only if there is some tangible evidence to back them up. Critical thinkers with an empirical mindset should be thanked. The message board equivalents of shock-jocks should not be thanked.

That's like, your opinion man.

I think they have offered up plenty of sound evidence but not all people are going to value these things in the same manner as one another... so to each their own.

rebornFixer

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

That's like, your opinion man.

I think they have offered up plenty of sound evidence but not all people are going to value these things in the same manner as one another... so to each their own.

Damn, I freakin' love that movie.

And yes, we all have our own preferred ways of understanding the world and making sense of things. This board has enlightened my thinking around a number of issues, including Israel/Palestine, and I do not believe that having a controversial opinion is necessary a bad thing, at all. And angelica's point about interpretation of the evidence has some real merit ... I suppose where her and I might differ is on the basic definition of what constitutes good evidence.

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'd be flattered, but we Irish don't have "jokes" yet.

You guys must feel like you've entered some strange, alternate universe when you peer through your computer screens into the vast interwebs of jews, jokes, sliced bread, breakfast cereals and dvds.

rebornFixer

angelica wrote:

Since you value one type of intelligence over other types that are considered by the experts to be equally valid (ie: you value critical thinkers with an empirical mindset ), you reveal your own bias.

Hmm ... I'll have to think on that, but I will freely concede up front that I AM biased, in that I do prefer an empirical approach to understanding the world, rather than a purely intuitive or emotional one. Do these latter perspectives also have value? Yes, at least at times, they do. In my view, emotions and intuition are perfectly viable ways of constructing one's social reality, given that they are also amenable to an empirical understanding. I am not sure that I do value one type of intelligence (in a Gardnerian sense, for instance) above any one other ... I think my mindset can apply to most or all realms of the human experience.

Abookamongstthemany

reborncareerist wrote:

Damn, I freakin' love that movie.

reborncareerist wrote:

And yes, we all have our own preferred ways of understanding the world and making sense of things. This board has enlightened my thinking around a number of issues, including Israel/Palestine, and I do not believe that having a controversial opinion is necessary a bad thing, at all. And angelica's point about interpretation of the evidence has some real merit ... I suppose where her and I might differ is on the basic definition of what constitutes good evidence.

This board has really changed my perception on so many things...I can't seem to stay decided on some topics because people are so good at expressing their point of view here. I just try to keep an open mind and keep listening.

DriftingByTheStorm

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

That's like, your opinion man.

I think they have offered up plenty of sound evidence but not all people are going to value these things in the same manner as one another... so to each their own.

This unchecked aggression will not stand, man!

Things i've provided proof of:
1. Lee Harvey Oswald had a spy camera, his USMC documentation shows he was tested in Russian language, he was arrested with his marine ring and bracelet on. A cut out\white sillouette version of the "back yard photo" was found in the Dallas police archives. Oswald knew David Ferrie. Oswald stamped his pro-castro handbills with the same address as a bunch of CIA anti-castro nuts were using on Camp St. (David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, et all) ... the government never talked to any of these people, some of them died within the next 3 years. Oswald was framed in Mexico, extensively documented by CIA and FBI records. I've shown you the testimony of James Files who claims to BE the 2nd gunman on the knoll, and i've shown you the CIA documents released 10 years AFTER his testimony that prove the same man Files says hired him was a known mafia agent that the CIA hired the same year as the JFK killing to try and murder Castro. What a fucking coincidence. I've shown you the FBI photos AND logs of TWO spent bullets at the scene of the 6th floor of the Book Depository, and not the THREE that would be needed for the Warren commission report. I've shown you COUNTLESS examples of forged medical evidence, forged ballistic evidence, and witnesses that had been manipulated, tampered with, and outright misquoted -- witnesses who have gone on record SAYING AS MUCH! I've shown you the testimony of Chauncey Holt, who was one of the three tramps ... a man whose testimony gives credence to a mega-shit ton of what took place that day. I've shown you documents proving that the ammunition allegedly used by Oswald was 20 years old at the time of his purchase of it, that it had not been manufactured in 20 years, that he could not have even ordered it on the commercial market, that infact these same guns and ammo were ordered in HUGE volume by ... THE CIA ... for $2 (TWO dollars) a piece, and that teh ammo was stated as unreliable in ballistics tests. I've shown you the evidence that the sight on Oswald's rifle wasn't even set right, and that the FBI had to jerry-rig it by placing a shiv under it to even get it to aim properly for testing purposes. Further, the gun wasn't even oiled before the FBI oiled it.

2. Bush shows up all over the place in connection with JFK. His oil company is now a well known CIA front operation. Bush denies being in the CIA at the time. This is a proven lie. I've shown you documents where the chief of the FBI acknowledges a "George Bush of the CIA" on a memo entitled "Assassination of JFK" ... both Bosh and Carriles were hired by Bush.

3. All kinds of fishy shit involving 911. The 911 Commission report flat out lies about what time Cheney arrived in the command bunker. It ignores Norman Minnetas testimony regarding "of course the order still stands". The FAA deposed all workers by taking recorded statements of their accounts of 911. Their supervisor collected these testimonies and destroyed them in front of everyone. Bush and Cheney wouldn't testify except under the most absolute bullshit of conditions. I've showed you seizmographic evidence of "explosions" all over the twin towers starting more than 3-5 minutes before the collapse started, and increasing in frequency 20 seconds before collapse. We've showed you extensively the lies and deception both by NIST officials, and all the fuck over the NIST reports themselves. We've shown you the pakistani intelligence official who is admitted to have transferred $100k to hijacker Mohammed Atta, and admittedly had a meeting with Rumsfeld, Rice, and Wolfowitz the day before and the day of 911. We've been over the war games, the transfer of "intercept" orders from miltary to cheney, the unsusualy low volume of passengers on all flights involved with 911. We've shown you testimony from countles dozens and hundreds of credentialed individuals who dispute everything that happend that day: CIA ranking officials, state department officials, military officials, long time FAA employees, fighter pilots, engineers, etc etc etc ... all say 911 is a crock of shit.

4. I've showed you that both the guy who "discovered" HIV, and the first and most credentialed "AIDS Denier" were BOTH involved TOGETHER in the "US Special Virus Cancer (Research) Program". And i've showed you the quotes from documents proving beyond a doubt that what the Special Virus Program was attempting to do was create a virus IDENTICAL in description and function to HIV.

5. We've been over Jonestown, and how Dweyer was a CIA agent, and how he lied about not going back to Jonestown after the massacre at the landing strip. How Jim Jones himself is heard just before his strange murder at midnight yelling "get Dweyer out of here before he gets hurt!" ...proving Dweyer went back, and was among the last alive at Jonestown. I've showed that the government lied about the numbers, and that bodies were dragged on top of other bodies. I've showed that Brzezinski ordered their medical tags removed. I've showed that Jonestown had an IDENTICAL list of drugs (psychedelics and all) to that of the MKULTRA program and that there was enough of these drugs to keep the whole goddamn , and place drugged up for probably a decade. They had a ultra-modern hospital, and everyone got a DAILY check up.

6. I've shown you videos of psychiatrists interviewing and discussing Sirhan Sirhan, saying he very clearly was super-duper-ultra succeptible to hypnosis. Court record shows Sirhan repeatedly, continuously, and emphaticaly denied ANY memory of the murder itself, and even is on record saying that the murder "didn't sound like me. wasn't something i would do. it wasn't sane. and i'm sane." ... and i've linked you to audio of police interrogation of a witness that stopped short of abuse to manipulate the record of the interview, CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALY distorting and outright obfuscating the truth about the lady in the polka dot dress. This shows COMPLICITY on account of the authorities!

7. The First WTC Bombing: the NYTimes ran a story clearly explaining that an FBI informant had been duped by the FBI, and that his "terrorist" contacts had been GIVEN A LIVE EXPLOSIVE DEVICE BY THE FBI, and that the informant complained about this when he found out, and that the FBI then proceeded to just remove the informant from the loop, and let the terrorists do the bombing.

8. The Murrah building in Oklahoma City: I've shown you countless news reels of reporters talking of "CONFIRMED REPORTS FROM THE FBI" that there are "MULTIPLE DEVICES STILL IN THE BUILDINGS". I've shown you PROOF that there was a second man in the rental truck. I've shown you the testimony of a man who broke the law by speaking of his involvement as a juror on the Grand Jury for the case, where he is emphatic about the prosecution denying him his rights as a Juror and obfuscating the entirety of the matter, failing to provide him with requested expert witnesses, and witholding requested information (like a sketch of "John Doe #2") from him and the rest of the Jury. I've shown you conclusive EYE WITNESS evidence from MULTIPLE individuals who say this 2nd man was OLIVE SKINNED. I've shown you quotes from the second man, Mr. Nichols, who claims explicitly that McVeigh was set up and duped by the FBI!


9. Next we gonna talk about the Lusitania. Because that is EXTREMELY WELL DOCUMENTED BY HISTORICAL RECORD!

no proof my fucking lilly white, red hair speckled ass.
:cool: