Pushing the Envelope

Heineken Helen

TrixieCat wrote:

If some dude is whipping up bombs in his basement next door or laundering cash to support his upcoming terrorist attack then you can bet your ass I want his life interferred with.

I believe activities such as the above were always illegal? Patriot act didn't make them any MORE illegal, did it?

Heineken Helen

TrixieCat wrote:

If you don't want to be "affected" by the patriot act, then get your ass of the grid.
Simple.

Nice! :rolleyes:

Ultimatums, eh?

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

about 4 most likely.

if you dont know the answer then stop promoting suppositions

Yes, cos just cos the government don't release figures of how many they got wrong, we shouldn't question it?

Collin

dunkman wrote:

that may be the case... but that person will most likely never know... the FBI might be reading this very page... but our lives have not been changed in way or form.

Or on the other hand people, especially immigrants, might be held in detention indefinitely, or people might have their houses searched without their knowledge or permission.

I don't know about you but an act that allows authorities to come into my house and search my house without my knowledge or permission is a step too far.

TrixieCat

Heineken Helen wrote:

I believe activities such as the above were always illegal? Patriot act didn't make them any MORE illegal, did it?

Do you understand what the Patriot Act even is?
If the dude next door is suspect of making bombs in his basement or laundering cash, then the gov't can wire tap him, check his computer, basically they have free access to anything involving anysort of communication. Including credit card bills, library cards, etc.
Without the Patriot Act this is illegal and not submissable in court.

Heineken Helen

Collin wrote:

Or on the other hands people, especially immigrants might be held in detention indefinitely, or people might have their houses searched without their knowledge or permission.

I don't know about you but an act that allows authorities to come into my house and search my house without my knowledge or permission is a step too far.

see dunk mightn't know much about that... but that kinda shit was happening in Northern Ireland until recently! I know plenty of people that happened to (having their houses searched). Internment was proven to be a pile of bollox by the situation in the north... but hey, if these people wanna learn their own lessons, let them... just not at my expense

TrixieCat

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nice! :rolleyes:

Ultimatums, eh?

I love the eye roll. No, really, I do.
Was I issuing an ultimatum? lol
It is a simple fact.

Collin

TrixieCat wrote:

Do you understand what the Patriot Act even is?
If the dude next door is suspect of making bombs in his basement or laundering cash, then the gov't can wire tap him, check his computer, basically they have free access to anything involving anysort of communication. Including credit card bills, library cards, etc.
Without the Patriot Act this is illegal and not submissable in court.

Ah, yes but what exactly makes a person a "suspect." That's the part you should be looking into.

spiral out

Jeanie wrote:

People stand up now. This isn't a new thing, it's how the world has operated for a very long time. The rich and powerful have always controlled the masses. The difficult thing for them now is that we've all been brought up in Western culture to believe we are individuals and that we all have the ability to succeed at anything. So the pyramid got fat in the middle and now they're trying to force all the masses back down into the bottom of the pyramid. This recession we're going into will force a lot of change. And far too late? Sorry spiral but far too late? What does that even mean? The only time it's too late is when you're dead and we all have to die some day. Society will go on after we are gone.

I have no doubt society will go on long after we are gone. Far too late to save ourselves right now is what i mean. Thing are going to get a lot worse before they get better and a lot of people will suffer in that time.

We are heading for a global recession and hopefully it will bring about change, i would like to see change in peoples attitudes, maybe a little less selfishness and little more caring for our fellow man, but hell that's going to take another few thousand years, I'm sure.

Heineken Helen

TrixieCat wrote:

Do you understand what the Patriot Act even is?
If the dude next door is suspect of making bombs in his basement or laundering cash, then the gov't can wire tap him, check his computer, basically they have free access to anything involving anysort of communication. Including credit card bills, library cards, etc.
Without the Patriot Act this is illegal and not submissable in court.

FANTASTIC and how does he become a suspect? See my above post... your neighbour doesn't like you or thinks you're acting unpatriotically... you report him for being unpatriotic. This could be the result of a simple disagreement between neighbours.

LONGRD

Collin wrote:

That may be so, but because of it your life can be interfered with or altered. The possibility is there and you can't do anything about it.

I think that if a law, an act, a treaty or whatever can affect someone, if it does infringe upon someone's rights, even if it's only one person, it is a threat to me too.

I pretty sure that many Arab-Americans are heavily affected but I'm not one nor is there a big concern in my little town/community. And that's all that matters to me is the little community that I live in.

Heineken Helen

TrixieCat wrote:

I love the eye roll. No, really, I do.
Was I issuing an ultimatum? lol
It is a simple fact.

Yeh I know... isn't that what I've been saying? If I wanna live the life I've always lived I have to accept that bullshit. I don't know how you can use that as a positive

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I didn't vote for them. For many many reasons! And yes, I know you work for the government... what is it you do again? Make maps? Ah yes... I see how you would then be so much more informed about all of this! :rolleyes:

i make maps.

i also plot the movement of nuclear shipments.. contribute to my departments papers and reports that go to straight to Scottish Parliament... i've worked on e-planning forums that will directly affect the poorest people of Scotland and how they get a house in the future... blah blah de blah.

point is... i work for the government... nothing we do is covert or in anyway snoops into your life... MI5 might do that .. but i'm pretty sure MI5 have a staff of about 4000 people and i dont think they see me as much of a threat.. so they concentrate on snooping on idiots who believe 49 virgins await them.. or russian mafia bosses who live in london and pay no tax and have men killed...

as exciting as your life may be.. i dont think your secret service will be wasting much time on you

anyway.. shouldnt you be making coffee for your boss?

Heineken Helen

spiral out wrote:

We are heading for a global recession and hopefully it will bring about change, i would like to see change in peoples attitudes, maybe a little less selfishness and little more caring for our fellow man, but hell that's going to take another few thousand years, I'm sure.

I agree... hard times usually bring out the fight in people too! So yes, I'm actually hoping for a recession and some kinda revolution is definitely overdue.

Collin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/usa

Rhinocerous Surprise

TrixieCat wrote:

If you don't want to be "affected" by the patriot act, then get your ass of the grid.
Simple.

Do you really think that's the right answer to all this? If you don't want the government prying into your conversations, stop having them?

Collin

LongRd. wrote:

I pretty sure that many Arab-Americans are heavily affected but I'm not one nor is there a big concern in my little town/community. And that's all that matters to me is the little community that I live in.

Sounds very egotistical to me.

spiral out

LongRd. wrote:

My life was not interfered or altered whatsoever by the Patriot Act. :cool:

Not yet it hasn't, but why get an act voted in if you never had an intention of using it.

I especially like the bit about taking our bank account and anything else we own of value when the government Sees fit to declare a state of emergency.

All i can say to people is don't get to attached all the stuff you own.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i make maps.

i also plot the movement of nuclear shipments.. contribute to my departments papers and reports that go to straight to Scottish Parliament... i've worked on e-planning forums that will directly affect the poorest people of Scotland and how they get a house in the future... blah blah de blah.

Hmm... so let's see... you plot the movement of ships, wow. So you have inserted a word or two here with your big language into documents already written... and you plan stuff... all of that doesn't even come close to suggesting you would know any more about this kinda stuff than I would. I would certainly hope governments don't make people like YOU privee to matters of national security.

dunkman wrote:

point is... i work for the government... nothing we do is covert or in anyway snoops into your life... MI5 might do that .. but i'm pretty sure MI5 have a staff of about 4000 people and i dont think they see me as much of a threat.. so they concentrate on snooping on idiots who believe 49 virgins await them.. or russian mafia bosses who live in london and pay no tax and have men killed...

Yes you work for the government but do you work for all departments? Do you know everything that goes on in each department? And you admit that you know nothing about MI5 so how would you know where their interests lie and what they're bothered in.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I believe activities such as the above were always illegal? Patriot act didn't make them any MORE illegal, did it?

made it easier to catch them

catching a person before the crime has taken place far outweighs catching a person after the crime has taken place