Pushing the Envelope

angelica

Collin wrote:

Semantics, man.

If you question someone it means you don't entirely trust them otherwise you wouldn't question them now, would you?

I view trust as a bridge. At any time when there is not a mutual sense of trust, it's up to be questioned and reworked by either side in order to keep the bridge between the two - in this case the individual and their government - connected and secure.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Well I see plenty of it. Have seen plenty of it and will continue to see plenty of it. JUST as I will continue to see governments and big business keep trying to have it their way. That's what humans do. They wrestle over things. Some days you win and some days you lose.

There will be people in a recession that hang on to their values regardless just as there will be people that don't. And none of it will amount to a hill of beans in the end for each of us as individuals anyway. You can only do so much and then ultimately I think it has to be the way cate and dunk said. You look after your family and your loved ones and live as good a life as you can manage and then you die and still it all goes on without you.

Seems to be the people who are more complacent about the whole thing are mainly those with kids... I mean obviously people have different priorities and especially when you have kids, they should be your priority. At this stage I must stress that I speak of my beliefs here... it is not a priority of mine, nor is it an obsession... but I find it a very interesting debate. And I still don't understand, after the whole debate, where the fuck everyone else is coming from

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I haven't disputed that... I've been questioning why we'd allow our governments to go BACK to those ways, which we're slowly, very slowly, doing :eek:

i disagree.. i have to as i cant see into the future.

i'm more concerned that my car tax is going to double next year...

£200 up to £415...

now that directly affects me rather than some guy buying 40 litres of hair ammonia and perhaps having his emails read..

is it selfish? no, its not actually.

LONGRD

Collin wrote:

You can be a very generous and giving person. But to me that view sounds very vey egotistical. You don't care if brown people are being locked indefinitely up for no good reason whatsoever. You don't care their home's are being invaded without their knowledge or permission, again without a probable cause. I don't know how you would label that particular view but it's far from altruism.

As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.

Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i disagree.. i have to as i cant see into the future.

i'm more concerned that my car tax is going to double next year...

£200 up to £415...

now that directly affects me rather than some guy buying 40 litres of hair ammonia and perhaps having his emails read..

is it selfish? no, its not actually.

but it's all connected dunk . What do you think pays for those guys reading your emails? Your taxes... ah wow, your car tax is being doubled next year? what a coincidence

Heineken Helen

LongRd. wrote:

As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.

Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.

And what about all your other brown american citizens who aren't lucky enough to have such great neighbours who understand that not all brown people are bad? Do you think your government is doing much for those?

Collin

LongRd. wrote:

As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.

Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.

You don't have to apologize for what you believe, my friend. We just disagree. If people's rights are being violated here, I see it as my fight too. It's not 'their personal rights' that were infringed upon, but it's "our" rights.

LONGRD

Heineken Helen wrote:

And what about all your other brown american citizens who aren't lucky enough to have such great neighbours who understand that not all brown people are bad? Do you think your government is doing much for those?

They're doing what's best for all of us as a whole and that might set apart certain groups of citizens but they still have rights to petition and dispute any injustices.

my2hands

you know what i think is funny...

Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit

Heineken Helen

LongRd. wrote:

They're doing what's best for all of us as a whole and that might set apart certain groups of citizens but they still have rights to petition and dispute any injustices.

Of course they do! Cos those in Guantanamo were given access to their lawyers straight away?

Heineken Helen

my2hands wrote:

you know what i think is funny...

Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit

You're easily amused! Besides we're arguing about world politics... the patriot act was used as an example of unnecessary government powers.

angelica

my2hands wrote:

you know what i think is funny...

Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit

You might want to explain what is funny about it.

Most of the people I know in Canada are more concerned with what is happening with the world's "superpower" than any other country, and for good reason.

LONGRD

Heineken Helen wrote:

Of course they do! Cos those in Guantanamo were given access to their lawyers straight away?

Hmmm, You're now talking about foreign militants? They have nothing to do with us citizens, they're in federal-military control/responsibilities there. I don't know about international war laws, so can't tell what kind of rights those detainees have or don't have.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Seems to be the people who are more complacent about the whole thing are mainly those with kids... I mean obviously people have different priorities and especially when you have kids, they should be your priority. At this stage I must stress that I speak of my beliefs here... it is not a priority of mine, nor is it an obsession... but I find it a very interesting debate. And I still don't understand, after the whole debate, where the fuck everyone else is coming from

Complacent or just focused on different things? I've seen plenty of protest from people with kids, it usually has to do with things like maternity leave, lack of childcare placements and facilities. Recently a mother in New Zealand managed to get a law passed that parents can't smack their kids. A couple here who lost their son to anaphalaxis have lobbied to have peanuts banned in schools. Parents have protested and lobbied to have the speed limit in school zones lowered, ban junk food in tuck shops, have mobile phones barred in classrooms, you name it parents have banded together, discussed issues and protested. Does it affect the world on a global scale? Well perhaps not, but maybe one day.

Here's where I'm coming from, and it's based very much on something I learned from some very wise old people who aren't with us anymore.

You go through your life and you do what you think you should at the time. When you're younger and single if you've been brought up in an environment where social issues and politics are part of your daily life and have the passion and the energy, you protest, you rage, you go hard. Then kids come along, or you get involved in something else consuming and your focus changes to more local issues, you still protest or keep yourself informed but your time is more limited so you don't get to wave your placards around so much. You work, you feed your family, you put a roof over your head and time marches on, you might be adamant that you won't use plastic shopping bags. That's your big effort for now. Then you get older, the kids are grown, you retire and you're bored shitless at home. You travel, you read, you listen to talk back radio, you write letters, you discuss the minutae of life endlessly with your friends and you send money to organizations that will do the leg work for you, you live frugally and you are pathological about which brand of toilet paper isn't made from the rare bark of the whateveryawannacallit tree from deep in the Amazon. You rage against the pollies for a while and then you realize that they're just gonna be replaced by new ones sooner or later and you've got things to do today to enjoy your life because it's getting shorter with each passing day. And that's the key Helen. Fight while you can but don't get too caught up with the fight because it'll go on just as easily without you.
My Gran and I, we discussed politics endlessly and the day that John Howard was voted in as prime minister of this country I cried because I knew what was coming. She laughed at me and said not to worry that my life would most likely go on just fine regardless. And she was right, it did. Granted Johnny took me down many paths I did not want to travel and his vision for this country was very different from mine but I survived and so did he. The only sad thing is that finally after too many years to count, he finally got ousted!! and my Gran, who would have danced a jig and raised a toast she'd have been so thrilled to finally see him gone, died before we, the people, got fed up with his antics and voted him out.
The things that happened in my life during his term in office, well the important things had nothing to do with him at all. So sure, fight the fight now while you've got the energy but don't be thinking that the rest of us that can't be stuffed freezing our tits off at the barricades aren't doing anything. We're just doing it different is all.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

but it's all connected dunk . What do you think pays for those guys reading your emails? Your taxes... ah wow, your car tax is being doubled next year? what a coincidence

yeah but those cars with less than 100mg of emissions pay NO TAX.. my tax offsets theirs.. they wont be making money to pay for guys in cubes to read about 4 girls emails discussing Pete Wentz nipple ring.


of course Helen as one of Western Europe's most active political activists i should bow down to your governmental knowledge...

i'm more worried about you than my government now... i cycle everywhere i possibly can now.. you get about 3 buses per day, planes every month, taxis home from the pub every weekend... your love affair is killing the planet .. its all your fault

VictoryGin

Collin wrote:

I don't know about you but an act that allows authorities to come into my house and search my house without my knowledge or permission is a step too far.

have you seen the wire? it can't happen like that.

Abookamongstthemany

angelica wrote:

You might want to explain what is funny about it.

Most of the people I know in Canada are more concerned with what is happening with the world's "superpower" than any other country, and for good reason.

Exactly!

Why wouldn't others also be concerned?

Collin

VictoryGin wrote:

have you seen the wire? it can't happen like that.

I haven't seen the wire. How does it happen, because the patriot act, at least how I understand it, says basically that.

Collin

my2hands wrote:

you know what i think is funny...

Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit

Yes, hilarious. We all know how little influence the US has in the world!

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Exactly!

http://it.pinellas.k12.fl.us/Teachers5/coheng/images/A1C664A128AC4A0684597DBFD63CFF86.gif

Why wouldn't others also be concerned?

"Concern" sounds like a huge understatement, really.....

Also, in all systems, often it's important to step outside the system you are dealing with in order to see it accurately...that's the meaning of being "objective". So, part of the big picture is that there is a world beyond the US, and the thoughts, opinions and views of those out there in terms of the US are entirely relevent and a part of understanding what's going on.

...unless one has a personal agenda to push, independent of the big picture...