Pushing the Envelope

my2hands

here is a fun excericise for everyone...


give me the name of 5 people wrongly affected by the PATRIOT Act with sources and info to back it up (by the way, i am not saying what i think about the patriot act, i just think this will be fun )

lets get down to brass tax folks. give me names.

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

here is a fun excericise for everyone...


give me the name of 5 people wrongly affected by the PATRIOT Act with sources and info to back it up (by the way, i am not saying what i think about the patriot act, i just think this will be fun )

lets get down to brass tax folks. give me names.

Anytime our rights have been infringed upon we have been wrongly affected.

my2hands

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Anytime our rights have been infringed upon we have been wrongly affected.

yeah, i get that side of the argument.


but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?

Rhinocerous Surprise

my2hands wrote:

yeah, i get that side of the argument.


but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?

But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.

Abookamongstthemany

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.

Exactly!

Well said aid aid

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

who's asking anyone to be an alarmist? I'm not saying people should be afraid... or worry or lose sleep... but the fact that some people think it's OK... well THAT's a little bit strange... there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and refusing to go along with it... and losing sleep. I don't wanna be a sheep and just go along with things cos it's the easy option.

no one. you just seem a little wound up thats all. i could be wrong... wouldnt be the first time.
anyhoo... helen, you should know the more distractions people have the less they pay attention to the details. there are also people who just dont care... and that is their prerogative. thats great you dont want to be a sheep... millions and milllions of people share your view, but one must lives one's life the way one wants to, not have it dictated by some other well meaning person.

catefrances

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.

... not to mention if kat and sea are reading the pms we send each other. :eek:

Byrnzie

my2hands wrote:

you know what i think is funny...

Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit

What I find funny is how few Americans actually know anything about their own country, let alone the rest of the world.

catefrances

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Exactly!

Why wouldn't others also be concerned?

we are concerned with US foreign policy, which affects us directly and indirectly. domestic policy is nothing to do with us so basically we couldnt care less. there's really not much we, as foreigners, can do about it. it's all up to you americans to reign in your goverment when it comes to violation of civil rights within your borders.

catefrances

Byrnzie wrote:

What I find funny is how few Americans actually know anything about their own country, let alone the rest of the world.

well unfortunately steve, ignorance of one's country isn't an exclusively american thing.

Abookamongstthemany

catefrances wrote:

we are concerned with US foreign policy, which affects us directly and indirectly. domestic policy is nothing to do with us so basically we couldnt care less. there's really not much we, as foreigners, can do about it. it's all up to you americans to reign in your goverment when it comes to violation of civil rights within your borders.

Well if it were you're civil rights being stripped away, I'd still be concerned. Maybe not much I can do about it but I'd still care on a human level.

catefrances

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Well if it were you're civil rights being stripped away, I'd still be concerned. Maybe not much I can do about it but I'd still care on a human level.

i apologise for my lack of tact. i do care, my saying i didnt was unfortunate and a little stupid. tis just, as i said, not much we can do about it. i wait with great anticipation for the day when the Beltway is blocked with angry americans, flaming effigies and placards wriiten in bright red ink calling for the head of your government.

g under p

my2hands wrote:

yeah, i get that side of the argument.


but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?

When looking at The Patriot Act one has to look at the bigger/broader picture. On the inset it may appear that our rights might not be infringed upon however with this law on the the books the government has the aura of fear. We can look, listen and watch you whenever we want under the guise of homeland security and protecting/preventing terrorists before they act.

This Act is the beginning of surveillance that will get increasingly worse. On new Passports they already have tracking devices, next it will be on or in you ALL under the disguise of protecting us from terrorists.

Where do we draw the line as to our privacy? We won't have any, your neighbor could just be pissed off that you have nice things or bought a new car make a call that you appear to be associating with suspicious people or having suspicious behavior. Next thing you could watched put on a list of potential enemy combatants and possibly never to be heard from again and don't tell me it matters that you're a citizen it doesn't.

Three years ago in September my daughter and I went to a anti war protest march here in DC. We headed out to the march and my daughter asked me who are those men next to our car? I told not to worry it's just men from our government. They were taking down license plates including mine STY HUMN of protesters who were attending a peaceful march in our nation's Capital.

Many won't understand my distrust of this Act until it affects you or your family. In a way many more would be inclined to protest however with this Act hanging over our shoulders many would rather just stay home and where they feel safe and protected just avoid being surveilled.

Peace

El_Kabong

my2hands wrote:

yeah, i get that side of the argument.


but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?

a post about putting peaceful protesters on watch lists
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5373886&postcount=111

Patriot Act Abuses Seen
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/21/attack/main564189.shtml

FBI Papers Indicate Intelligence Violations
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352.html

Patriot Act abuses
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Patriot_Act_abuses

Critics cite PATRIOT Act abuse and misuse
Dodson: Act stretches beyond terrorism cases
http://media.www.dailytexanonline.com/media/storage/paper410/news/2003/09/14/StateLocal/Critics.Cite.Patriot.Act.Abuse.And.Misuse-465391.shtml

Gonzales Was Told of FBI Violations
After Bureau Sent Reports, Attorney General Said He Knew of No Wrongdoing
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/09/AR2007070902065.html
As he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act two years ago, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales assured lawmakers that the FBI had not abused its potent new terrorism-fighting powers. "There has not been one verified case of civil liberties abuse," Gonzales told senators on April 27, 2005.

Six days earlier, the FBI sent Gonzales a copy of a report that said its agents had obtained personal information that they were not entitled to have. It was one of at least half a dozen reports of legal or procedural violations that Gonzales received in the three months before he made his statement to the Senate intelligence committee, according to internal FBI documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.....

Conyers: FBI's Patriot abuses 'potentially without limit'
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Conyers_FBIs_Patriot_abuses_potentially_without_0309.html

Abuse of the Patriot Act
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/08/EDGL626TD81.DTL

Use of Warrantless National Security Letters Against US Citizens Must End
Another Patriot Act Abuse
http://www.counterpunch.org/webb03152007.html

Libraries React to Patriot Act Abuses
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/18/614/

According to FBI director, Mr. (Robert) Mueller, the FBI collected personal data by improperly using national security letters in 2006.
FBI widespread abuse continued until 2006, says FBI director Mr (Robert) Mueller.
http://www.newsoxy.com/tech/robert_mueller_says_fbi_abuse_continued_until_2006/article10488.htm

is that enough....?

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

yeah but those cars with less than 100mg of emissions pay NO TAX.. my tax offsets theirs.. they wont be making money to pay for guys in cubes to read about 4 girls emails discussing Pete Wentz nipple ring.


of course Helen as one of Western Europe's most active political activists i should bow down to your governmental knowledge...

i'm more worried about you than my government now... i cycle everywhere i possibly can now.. you get about 3 buses per day, planes every month, taxis home from the pub every weekend... your love affair is killing the planet .. its all your fault

you only cycle cos you're trying to lose weight I bet... that's the main reason people cycle... plus you admitted you only live a 5 minute drive from work... I'd walk or cycle too if that were the case

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

no one. you just seem a little wound up thats all. i could be wrong... wouldnt be the first time.
anyhoo... helen, you should know the more distractions people have the less they pay attention to the details. there are also people who just dont care... and that is their prerogative. thats great you dont want to be a sheep... millions and milllions of people share your view, but one must lives one's life the way one wants to, not have it dictated by some other well meaning person.

I don't mean to dictate Cate... it's just a debate... and one I find very interesting. I'm well aware that people neither listen to me nor change their lives because of something I believe... I'm not THAT bigheaded . I'm simply stating how I feel here and wondering why others CAN be quite blah about it. I'm starting to understand a bit more though.

Heineken Helen

g under p wrote:

When looking at The Patriot Act one has to look at the bigger/broader picture. On the inset it may appear that our rights might not be infringed upon however with this law on the the books the government has the aura of fear. We can look, listen and watch you whenever we want under the guise of homeland security and protecting/preventing terrorists before they act.

This Act is the beginning of surveillance that will get increasingly worse. On new Passports they already have tracking devices, next it will be on or in you ALL under the disguise of protecting us from terrorists.

Where do we draw the line as to our privacy? We won't have any, your neighbor could just be pissed off that you have nice things or bought a new car make a call that you appear to be associating with suspicious people or having suspicious behavior. Next thing you could watched put on a list of potential enemy combatants and possibly never to be heard from again and don't tell me it matters that you're a citizen it doesn't.

Three years ago in September my daughter and I went to a anti war protest march here in DC. We headed out to the march and my daughter asked me who are those men next to our car? I told not to worry it's just men from our government. They were taking down license plates including mine STY HUMN of protesters who were attending a peaceful march in our nation's Capital.

Many won't understand my distrust of this Act until it affects you or your family. In a way many more would be inclined to protest however with this Act hanging over our shoulders many would rather just stay home and where they feel safe and protected just avoid being surveilled.

Peace

Nice post... and great point about them taking license plate numbers

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

you only cycle cos you're trying to lose weight I bet... that's the main reason people cycle... plus you admitted you only live a 5 minute drive from work... I'd walk or cycle too if that were the case

yeah ok, you've got me on that one

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

yeah ok, you've got me on that one

If I could find a job 5 minutes away too, I'd grab it... of COURSE purely for environmental reasons . Besides this thread isn't about the environment... as far as I can tell it's about globalisation and the new world order.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

I don't mean to dictate Cate... it's just a debate... and one I find very interesting. I'm well aware that people neither listen to me nor change their lives because of something I believe... I'm not THAT bigheaded . I'm simply stating how I feel here and wondering why others CAN be quite blah about it. I'm starting to understand a bit more though.

you werent dictating. you were expressing your opinion with gusto, thats all. sometimes even i dont know why people dont seem to give a shit. and why theyre happy with what their various governments get up to and do in their name.