Pushing the Envelope

Sludge Factory

dunkman wrote:

i work for the government Hells...

they should be trusted because you voted for them... if you cant trust them then dont vote... but by voting then you are, by default, entrusting them with your interests.

This is an ignorant statement. Simply for the fact that people aren't always truthfull about their platform. Even if you elect someone to office you should still question them if they do something that seems wrong to you or if you believe they are involved in something shady. I don't know if you have it over in Europe but in America we are supposed to have something called "government in sunshine". This means government operations are supposed to be open to the public and up for questioning.

I'm not going to trust someone just because when I voted for them they were trustworthy; power and money corrupts people all the time.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Do you really think that's the right answer to all this? If you don't want the government prying into your conversations, stop having them?

Hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, why worry about it? :rolleyes:

URGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dunkman

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Do you really think that's the right answer to all this? If you don't want the government prying into your conversations, stop having them?

but they arent prying into your conversations.. they might be after you go out and by 14 litres of battery acid, 16kg of nails, some dynamite, the 9/11 dvd, 4 books about the Koran and sign up to the 49 Virgins Welcoming Commitee.. but unless you are doing something that can be construed as illegal then they wont be prying into YOUR conversations.. they simply dont have the manpower.

spiral out

Heineken Helen wrote:

I agree... hard times usually bring out the fight in people too! So yes, I'm actually hoping for a recession and some kinda revolution is definitely overdue.

Bring on the revolution!!

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh yes, of course people stand up... but the general consensus is that they're drugged up hippies... or simply 'nuts' as dunk would have everyone believe that I am. You can't speak out against these things or society tries to make a fool of ya. People think globalization's a good idea? And yes, I know it's the superclass... but I wish some governments would have the balls to stand up to them but no they'll give them more and more.

Well no Helen. I don't agree with that. Statistically more people stood up and protested the invasion of Iraq then protested Vietnam I'm sure I read somewhere. What you have to remember is that people are still doing stuff, they are active, they are involved and they are making an effort, BUT because the media is controlled by the big wigs the slant you get on that is definitely biased. I guess what I'm saying is, if you truly believe that change is possible then first you have to have faith in people. Don't believe what the media tells you. They are bringing our soldiers home and the American administration are under increasing pressure to bring their soldiers home too. Every day people made that happen you know. Mums and Dads, kids, teenagers, grandmas and grandpas not hippies, not druggies, not the great unwashed, every day normal folk, middle class folk even. And that's not the only place it's happened.

Oh and give a fuck what society thinks about me btw. They can laugh all they like, I don't give a fat rats. The government will stand up or make a show of standing up when the people threaten to oust them. These things are always changed in election years.

TrixieCat

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Do you really think that's the right answer to all this? If you don't want the government prying into your conversations, stop having them?

It is a tounge in cheek remark.
Sorry I didn't use the dumb .
It is funny that I seem to be one of the only Americans "affected" by this in here.
I have bigger f'ing fish to fry than to worry that the gov't is wiretapping some asshole.
I truly do.
I am a little more concerned about finding a cure for cancer or getting f'ing pedophiles off the street or getting our damn soldiers out of Iraq and mending our fences with the middle east.
If some dude is being profiled for buying 100 lbs of fertilizer, I could give a shit right now.

dunkman

Collin wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/usa

i read that

i also see that even though they requested all those customer details from companies.. not one single person was affected by this... they carried on their lives as normal as they had done prior to the patriot act.

Collin

dunkman wrote:

but they arent prying into your conversations.. they might be after you go out and by 14 litres of battery acid, 16kg of nails, some dynamite, the 9/11 dvd, 4 books about the Koran and sign up to the 49 Virgins Welcoming Commitee.. but unless you are doing something that can be construed as illegal then they wont be prying into YOUR conversations.. they simply dont have the manpower.

They might not have the manpower, but they have the power to do so. What if they start doing it anyway, can't do anything about it because you'r suddenly labelled a "enemy" and can be locked up indefinitely.

Why give them that power in the first place?

dunkman

Sludge Factory wrote:

This is an ignorant statement. Simply for the fact that people aren't always truthfull about their platform. Even if you elect someone to office you should still question them if they do something that seems wrong to you or if you believe they are involved in something shady. I don't know if you have it over in Europe but in America we are supposed to have something called "government in sunshine". This means government operations are supposed to be open to the public and up for questioning.

I'm not going to trust someone just because when I voted for them they were trustworthy; power and money corrupts people all the time.

its not ignorant.. Helen doesn't trust governments.. so my suggestion is to not vote for anyone.. as she doesnt trust them anyway.

and if you vote for someone in an election then you surely 'trust' them... i never alluded to finding them untrustworthy after they had been in their post for 3 years... i think its fine to question them after they are in post.. keep tabs on them so to speak... but by voting for someone in an election you are handing over your trust to them AT THAT POINT.. or surely you wouldnt vote?

Collin

dunkman wrote:

i read that

i also see that even though they requested all those customer details from companies.. not one single person was affected by this... they carried on their lives as normal as they had done prior to the patriot act.

As normal as they had except with a lot of distrust towards the government, I'd think.

angelica

my2hands wrote:

i think their energy and passion could be better used for actual issues and progress instead of constantly focusing on conpiracy. their passion for conspiracy in all forms is distracting them from real causes. the world needs more active progressives, not internet conspiracy experts. in my honest opinion.

And you play your perfect part in things with your contrasting opinion.

Like the Apple/genius video tells us, these people...we can't ignore them....in this case the "conspiracy theorists"...they come here everyday and agitate people and push the envelope, challenging the set "acceptable" views. They don't allow people to be complacent. There's a great poetry to it. Even though it's often at great challenge and cost to themselves being ridiculed and maligned, they continue to represent what they see, to the benefit of us all. And as the decades pass, and we come to learn more of the truth of 911, and other timely issues, we'll have them to thank. Not those who fall within acceptable truth. That's why I said these people are representing a whole new paradigm. That's a big deal.

Where do you think the actual progressives get their progressive views from? ...many times, it's from those who are out in front of them pushing the limits and pointing things out from a different kind of awareness.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

How many people stand up now? Don't worry, I'm not asking for actual figures or anything but wouldn't you agree that a far greater number of people just get on with their day to day lives and dismiss those who DO stand up as fruitcakes... and suggest their energy be better put to the test elsewhere?

Helen, why does it have to be about making a big show? I mean why do you need to see them stand up? There are people that I know that have followed their core principles and stuck to their beliefs in EVERYTHING they do in every day life for all of their lives. It's not just about standing up, it's about what you buy, how much you consume, how big your footprint is, how many letters you write, who you donate money to, the petitions you sign, how you vote. It's about informing yourself, deciding where you stand and living your life accordingly. People stand up. I see it all around me, every day in the little things they do. Push me and I will resist, this behaviour's not unique.

Collin

dunkman wrote:

its not ignorant.. Helen doesn't trust governments.. so my suggestion is to not vote for anyone.. as she doesnt trust them anyway.

and if you vote for someone in an election then you surely 'trust' them... i never alluded to finding them untrustworthy after they had been in their post for 3 years... i think its fine to question them after they are in post.. keep tabs on them so to speak... but by voting for someone in an election you are handing over your trust to them AT THAT POINT.. or surely you wouldnt vote?

Semantics, man.

If you question someone it means you don't entirely trust them otherwise you wouldn't question them now, would you?

Rhinocerous Surprise

TrixieCat wrote:

It is a tounge in cheek remark.
Sorry I didn't use the dumb .
It is funny that I seem to be one of the only Americans "affected" by this in here.
I have bigger f'ing fish to fry than to worry that the gov't is wiretapping some asshole.
I truly do.
I am a little more concerned about finding a cure for cancer or getting f'ing pedophiles off the street or getting our damn soldiers out of Iraq and mending our fences with the middle east.
If some dude is being profiled for buying 100 lbs of fertilizer, I could give a shit right now.

I guess I just don't agree that, because it doesn't affect you directly (yet), it's not a bad thing. What's that old quote? Anyone who'd sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither?

dunkman

Collin wrote:

They might not have the manpower, but they have the power to do so. What if they start doing it anyway, can't do anything about it because you'r suddenly labelled a "enemy" and can be locked up indefinitely.

Why give them that power in the first place?

that would only happen in the US though... so do i care?

you're putting way too much credence into all of this... why would they choose someone at random and pry into their life and then have them jailed indefinitely for absolutely no reason.

if they are prying on someone its because they have a belief that they are involved in nefarious activities... they dont pry on EVERYONE.

angelica

dunkman wrote:

as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Well no Helen. I don't agree with that. Statistically more people stood up and protested the invasion of Iraq then protested Vietnam I'm sure I read somewhere. What you have to remember is that people are still doing stuff, they are active, they are involved and they are making an effort, BUT because the media is controlled by the big wigs the slant you get on that is definitely biased. I guess what I'm saying is, if you truly believe that change is possible then first you have to have faith in people. Don't believe what the media tells you. They are bringing our soldiers home and the American administration are under increasing pressure to bring their soldiers home too. Every day people made that happen you know. Mums and Dads, kids, teenagers, grandmas and grandpas not hippies, not druggies, not the great unwashed, every day normal folk, middle class folk even. And that's not the only place it's happened.

Oh and give a fuck what society thinks about me btw. They can laugh all they like, I don't give a fat rats. The government will stand up or make a show of standing up when the people threaten to oust them. These things are always changed in election years.

oh yeh, the year before an election is usually a pretty good time to be in any country...things change pretty quickly though. And yes, people may have protested the war... didn't stop it going ahead though... and the reversal only started when it got completely fucked up... NOT cos of the protesters.

TrixieCat

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I guess I just don't agree that, because it doesn't affect you directly (yet), it's not a bad thing. What's that old quote? Anyone who'd sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither?

If and when it directly affects me then sure as shit I would want to know.
Why wouldn't I??

When it starts affecting you, in Ireland, let me know.

I am off to beg my corrupt gov't for money to further my education.

spiral out

TrixieCat wrote:

If and when it directly affects me then sure as shit I would want to know.
Why wouldn't I??

When it starts affecting you, in Ireland, let me know.

I am off to beg my corrupt gov't for money to further my education.

So you have no consideration for people who are affected? Correct me if i'm wrong but that sounds selfish.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

its not ignorant.. Helen doesn't trust governments.. so my suggestion is to not vote for anyone.. as she doesnt trust them anyway.

and if you vote for someone in an election then you surely 'trust' them... i never alluded to finding them untrustworthy after they had been in their post for 3 years... i think its fine to question them after they are in post.. keep tabs on them so to speak... but by voting for someone in an election you are handing over your trust to them AT THAT POINT.. or surely you wouldnt vote?

why not? You are assuming they will stick to their words... I only trust those who have proven themselves trustworthy. If a politician states that he/she will do things a certain way you have to ASSUME they will stick to their word. Quite often they don't... who's to know? There are SOME politicians I believe actually mean what they say cos they've proven themselves to me over time... however they are not normally part of a bigger party... so even though I vote for them, they will not have any leadership nor have much of a say other than in opposition.