If you question someone it means you don't entirely trust them otherwise you wouldn't question them now, would you?
I view trust as a bridge. At any time when there is not a mutual sense of trust, it's up to be questioned and reworked by either side in order to keep the bridge between the two - in this case the individual and their government - connected and secure.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Well I see plenty of it. Have seen plenty of it and will continue to see plenty of it. JUST as I will continue to see governments and big business keep trying to have it their way. That's what humans do. They wrestle over things. Some days you win and some days you lose.
There will be people in a recession that hang on to their values regardless just as there will be people that don't. And none of it will amount to a hill of beans in the end for each of us as individuals anyway. You can only do so much and then ultimately I think it has to be the way cate and dunk said. You look after your family and your loved ones and live as good a life as you can manage and then you die and still it all goes on without you.
Seems to be the people who are more complacent about the whole thing are mainly those with kids... I mean obviously people have different priorities and especially when you have kids, they should be your priority. At this stage I must stress that I speak of my beliefs here... it is not a priority of mine, nor is it an obsession... but I find it a very interesting debate. And I still don't understand, after the whole debate, where the fuck everyone else is coming from
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I haven't disputed that... I've been questioning why we'd allow our governments to go BACK to those ways, which we're slowly, very slowly, doing :eek:
i disagree.. i have to as i cant see into the future.
i'm more concerned that my car tax is going to double next year...
£200 up to £415...
now that directly affects me rather than some guy buying 40 litres of hair ammonia and perhaps having his emails read..
is it selfish? no, its not actually.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
You can be a very generous and giving person. But to me that view sounds very vey egotistical. You don't care if brown people are being locked indefinitely up for no good reason whatsoever. You don't care their home's are being invaded without their knowledge or permission, again without a probable cause. I don't know how you would label that particular view but it's far from altruism.
As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.
Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.
i disagree.. i have to as i cant see into the future.
i'm more concerned that my car tax is going to double next year...
£200 up to £415...
now that directly affects me rather than some guy buying 40 litres of hair ammonia and perhaps having his emails read..
is it selfish? no, its not actually.
but it's all connected dunk . What do you think pays for those guys reading your emails? Your taxes... ah wow, your car tax is being doubled next year? what a coincidence
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.
Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.
And what about all your other brown american citizens who aren't lucky enough to have such great neighbours who understand that not all brown people are bad? Do you think your government is doing much for those?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
As a brown person myself who was born in a refugee camp having very limited access to civilization where I was, I can sympathized with that condition and do feel sorry for them. But it's really not my fight to fight- yes, that's selfish and arrogant but that's life, nothing is fair.
Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.
You don't have to apologize for what you believe, my friend. We just disagree. If people's rights are being violated here, I see it as my fight too. It's not 'their personal rights' that were infringed upon, but it's "our" rights.
And what about all your other brown american citizens who aren't lucky enough to have such great neighbours who understand that not all brown people are bad? Do you think your government is doing much for those?
They're doing what's best for all of us as a whole and that might set apart certain groups of citizens but they still have rights to petition and dispute any injustices.
They're doing what's best for all of us as a whole and that might set apart certain groups of citizens but they still have rights to petition and dispute any injustices.
Of course they do! Cos those in Guantanamo were given access to their lawyers straight away?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit
You're easily amused! Besides we're arguing about world politics... the patriot act was used as an example of unnecessary government powers.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit
You might want to explain what is funny about it.
Most of the people I know in Canada are more concerned with what is happening with the world's "superpower" than any other country, and for good reason.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Of course they do! Cos those in Guantanamo were given access to their lawyers straight away?
Hmmm, You're now talking about foreign militants? They have nothing to do with us citizens, they're in federal-military control/responsibilities there. I don't know about international war laws, so can't tell what kind of rights those detainees have or don't have.
Seems to be the people who are more complacent about the whole thing are mainly those with kids... I mean obviously people have different priorities and especially when you have kids, they should be your priority. At this stage I must stress that I speak of my beliefs here... it is not a priority of mine, nor is it an obsession... but I find it a very interesting debate. And I still don't understand, after the whole debate, where the fuck everyone else is coming from
Complacent or just focused on different things? I've seen plenty of protest from people with kids, it usually has to do with things like maternity leave, lack of childcare placements and facilities. Recently a mother in New Zealand managed to get a law passed that parents can't smack their kids. A couple here who lost their son to anaphalaxis have lobbied to have peanuts banned in schools. Parents have protested and lobbied to have the speed limit in school zones lowered, ban junk food in tuck shops, have mobile phones barred in classrooms, you name it parents have banded together, discussed issues and protested. Does it affect the world on a global scale? Well perhaps not, but maybe one day.
Here's where I'm coming from, and it's based very much on something I learned from some very wise old people who aren't with us anymore.
You go through your life and you do what you think you should at the time. When you're younger and single if you've been brought up in an environment where social issues and politics are part of your daily life and have the passion and the energy, you protest, you rage, you go hard. Then kids come along, or you get involved in something else consuming and your focus changes to more local issues, you still protest or keep yourself informed but your time is more limited so you don't get to wave your placards around so much. You work, you feed your family, you put a roof over your head and time marches on, you might be adamant that you won't use plastic shopping bags. That's your big effort for now. Then you get older, the kids are grown, you retire and you're bored shitless at home. You travel, you read, you listen to talk back radio, you write letters, you discuss the minutae of life endlessly with your friends and you send money to organizations that will do the leg work for you, you live frugally and you are pathological about which brand of toilet paper isn't made from the rare bark of the whateveryawannacallit tree from deep in the Amazon. You rage against the pollies for a while and then you realize that they're just gonna be replaced by new ones sooner or later and you've got things to do today to enjoy your life because it's getting shorter with each passing day. And that's the key Helen. Fight while you can but don't get too caught up with the fight because it'll go on just as easily without you.
My Gran and I, we discussed politics endlessly and the day that John Howard was voted in as prime minister of this country I cried because I knew what was coming. She laughed at me and said not to worry that my life would most likely go on just fine regardless. And she was right, it did. Granted Johnny took me down many paths I did not want to travel and his vision for this country was very different from mine but I survived and so did he. The only sad thing is that finally after too many years to count, he finally got ousted!! and my Gran, who would have danced a jig and raised a toast she'd have been so thrilled to finally see him gone, died before we, the people, got fed up with his antics and voted him out.
The things that happened in my life during his term in office, well the important things had nothing to do with him at all. So sure, fight the fight now while you've got the energy but don't be thinking that the rest of us that can't be stuffed freezing our tits off at the barricades aren't doing anything. We're just doing it different is all.
but it's all connected dunk . What do you think pays for those guys reading your emails? Your taxes... ah wow, your car tax is being doubled next year? what a coincidence
yeah but those cars with less than 100mg of emissions pay NO TAX.. my tax offsets theirs.. they wont be making money to pay for guys in cubes to read about 4 girls emails discussing Pete Wentz nipple ring.
of course Helen as one of Western Europe's most active political activists i should bow down to your governmental knowledge...
i'm more worried about you than my government now... i cycle everywhere i possibly can now.. you get about 3 buses per day, planes every month, taxis home from the pub every weekend... your love affair is killing the planet .. its all your fault
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I don't know about you but an act that allows authorities to come into my house and search my house without my knowledge or permission is a step too far.
have you seen the wire? it can't happen like that.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Most of the people I know in Canada are more concerned with what is happening with the world's "superpower" than any other country, and for good reason.
Exactly!
Why wouldn't others also be concerned?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"Concern" sounds like a huge understatement, really.....
Also, in all systems, often it's important to step outside the system you are dealing with in order to see it accurately...that's the meaning of being "objective". So, part of the big picture is that there is a world beyond the US, and the thoughts, opinions and views of those out there in terms of the US are entirely relevent and a part of understanding what's going on.
...unless one has a personal agenda to push, independent of the big picture...
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
give me the name of 5 people wrongly affected by the PATRIOT Act with sources and info to back it up (by the way, i am not saying what i think about the patriot act, i just think this will be fun )
give me the name of 5 people wrongly affected by the PATRIOT Act with sources and info to back it up (by the way, i am not saying what i think about the patriot act, i just think this will be fun )
lets get down to brass tax folks. give me names.
Anytime our rights have been infringed upon we have been wrongly affected.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?
But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.
Exactly!
Well said aid aid
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
who's asking anyone to be an alarmist? I'm not saying people should be afraid... or worry or lose sleep... but the fact that some people think it's OK... well THAT's a little bit strange... there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and refusing to go along with it... and losing sleep. I don't wanna be a sheep and just go along with things cos it's the easy option.
no one. you just seem a little wound up thats all. i could be wrong... wouldnt be the first time.
anyhoo... helen, you should know the more distractions people have the less they pay attention to the details. there are also people who just dont care... and that is their prerogative. thats great you dont want to be a sheep... millions and milllions of people share your view, but one must lives one's life the way one wants to, not have it dictated by some other well meaning person.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.
... not to mention if kat and sea are reading the pms we send each other. :eek:
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
we are concerned with US foreign policy, which affects us directly and indirectly. domestic policy is nothing to do with us so basically we couldnt care less. there's really not much we, as foreigners, can do about it. it's all up to you americans to reign in your goverment when it comes to violation of civil rights within your borders.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
i disagree.. i have to as i cant see into the future.
i'm more concerned that my car tax is going to double next year...
£200 up to £415...
now that directly affects me rather than some guy buying 40 litres of hair ammonia and perhaps having his emails read..
is it selfish? no, its not actually.
Sorry for believing that my government(U.S.) is actually looking out for what's best of their citizens. I actually feel they work for us, I don't agree with all the regulation but respect it.
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
You don't have to apologize for what you believe, my friend. We just disagree. If people's rights are being violated here, I see it as my fight too. It's not 'their personal rights' that were infringed upon, but it's "our" rights.
naděje umírá poslední
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Europeans arguing about American politics... that is some funny shit
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Most of the people I know in Canada are more concerned with what is happening with the world's "superpower" than any other country, and for good reason.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Complacent or just focused on different things? I've seen plenty of protest from people with kids, it usually has to do with things like maternity leave, lack of childcare placements and facilities. Recently a mother in New Zealand managed to get a law passed that parents can't smack their kids. A couple here who lost their son to anaphalaxis have lobbied to have peanuts banned in schools. Parents have protested and lobbied to have the speed limit in school zones lowered, ban junk food in tuck shops, have mobile phones barred in classrooms, you name it parents have banded together, discussed issues and protested. Does it affect the world on a global scale? Well perhaps not, but maybe one day.
Here's where I'm coming from, and it's based very much on something I learned from some very wise old people who aren't with us anymore.
You go through your life and you do what you think you should at the time. When you're younger and single if you've been brought up in an environment where social issues and politics are part of your daily life and have the passion and the energy, you protest, you rage, you go hard. Then kids come along, or you get involved in something else consuming and your focus changes to more local issues, you still protest or keep yourself informed but your time is more limited so you don't get to wave your placards around so much. You work, you feed your family, you put a roof over your head and time marches on, you might be adamant that you won't use plastic shopping bags. That's your big effort for now. Then you get older, the kids are grown, you retire and you're bored shitless at home. You travel, you read, you listen to talk back radio, you write letters, you discuss the minutae of life endlessly with your friends and you send money to organizations that will do the leg work for you, you live frugally and you are pathological about which brand of toilet paper isn't made from the rare bark of the whateveryawannacallit tree from deep in the Amazon.
My Gran and I, we discussed politics endlessly and the day that John Howard was voted in as prime minister of this country I cried because I knew what was coming. She laughed at me and said not to worry that my life would most likely go on just fine regardless. And she was right, it did. Granted Johnny took me down many paths I did not want to travel and his vision for this country was very different from mine but I survived and so did he. The only sad thing is that finally after too many years to count, he finally got ousted!!
The things that happened in my life during his term in office, well the important things had nothing to do with him at all. So sure, fight the fight now while you've got the energy but don't be thinking that the rest of us that can't be stuffed freezing our tits off at the barricades aren't doing anything. We're just doing it different is all.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
yeah but those cars with less than 100mg of emissions pay NO TAX.. my tax offsets theirs.. they wont be making money to pay for guys in cubes to read about 4 girls emails discussing Pete Wentz nipple ring.
of course Helen as one of Western Europe's most active political activists i should bow down to your governmental knowledge...
i'm more worried about you than my government now... i cycle everywhere i possibly can now.. you get about 3 buses per day, planes every month, taxis home from the pub every weekend... your love affair is killing the planet .. its all your fault
have you seen the wire? it can't happen like that.
cross the river to the eastside
Exactly!
Why wouldn't others also be concerned?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I haven't seen the wire. How does it happen, because the patriot act, at least how I understand it, says basically that.
naděje umírá poslední
Yes, hilarious. We all know how little influence the US has in the world!
naděje umírá poslední
"Concern" sounds like a huge understatement, really.....
Also, in all systems, often it's important to step outside the system you are dealing with in order to see it accurately...that's the meaning of being "objective". So, part of the big picture is that there is a world beyond the US, and the thoughts, opinions and views of those out there in terms of the US are entirely relevent and a part of understanding what's going on.
...unless one has a personal agenda to push, independent of the big picture...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
give me the name of 5 people wrongly affected by the PATRIOT Act with sources and info to back it up (by the way, i am not saying what i think about the patriot act, i just think this will be fun
lets get down to brass tax folks. give me names.
Anytime our rights have been infringed upon we have been wrongly affected.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
yeah, i get that side of the argument.
but on the flip side, when have your rights been infringed upon? any examples?
But that's just it. No one has any idea if the government is reading your e-mails, or keeping tabs on you in whatever way - just because they're not crashing through your window with a SWAT team doesn't mean they're not infringing on your rights.
Exactly!
Well said aid aid
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
no one. you just seem a little wound up thats all. i could be wrong... wouldnt be the first time.
anyhoo... helen, you should know the more distractions people have the less they pay attention to the details. there are also people who just dont care... and that is their prerogative. thats great you dont want to be a sheep... millions and milllions of people share your view, but one must lives one's life the way one wants to, not have it dictated by some other well meaning person.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
... not to mention if kat and sea are reading the pms we send each other. :eek:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What I find funny is how few Americans actually know anything about their own country, let alone the rest of the world.
we are concerned with US foreign policy, which affects us directly and indirectly. domestic policy is nothing to do with us so basically we couldnt care less. there's really not much we, as foreigners, can do about it. it's all up to you americans to reign in your goverment when it comes to violation of civil rights within your borders.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
well unfortunately steve, ignorance of one's country isn't an exclusively american thing.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say