Pushing the Envelope

my2hands

angelica wrote:

Drifting, Roland and all the rest who are considered "conspiracy theorists"...I want to thank you for pushing the envelope on many topics, and in a way that is very well thought out.

I am so grateful for people like you who see way outside the box. That you are so far-reaching, and can stay balanced in dealing not only with what you see, but with how people treat you for what you see....I feel nothing but respect for you. You raise issues and questions that rock the apple cart and push the status quo. And that is soo necessary.

You guys see in terms of whole new paradigms beyond what is current accepted thought that is in need of evolution. Your vision has it's perfect place in the grand scheme of things, even though, sadly, so many completely miss the relevency. Often, you present things where I am able to see at the least the kernal of truth in a way of perceiving that's just beyond ordinary. In many cases. while I may not see exactly what you see, I am forever changed by such influence, and in ways on topics, that I take forward in influencing others. I am far-seeing in certain ways, whereas some of you are far-seeing in ways I am not. I value our front-runners so very, very much. I want you guys to know that. I recognize the value of what you do...all the while people blindly scoff and pathologize the very people who are looking out for them.

It doesn't matter if the majority doesn't get it. You are generating a rarefied type of awareness and thinking that eventually has a trickle down effect.

Kudos to you! Peace.

i think their energy and passion could be better used for actual issues and progress instead of constantly focusing on conpiracy. their passion for conspiracy in all forms is distracting them from real causes. the world needs more active progressives, not internet conspiracy experts. in my honest opinion.

Jeanie

spiral out wrote:

But when will enough be enough and people actually stand up and say something? My guess is when it is far too late.

People stand up now. This isn't a new thing, it's how the world has operated for a very long time. The rich and powerful have always controlled the masses. The difficult thing for them now is that we've all been brought up in Western culture to believe we are individuals and that we all have the ability to succeed at anything. So the pyramid got fat in the middle and now they're trying to force all the masses back down into the bottom of the pyramid. This recession we're going into will force a lot of change. And far too late? Sorry spiral but far too late? What does that even mean? The only time it's too late is when you're dead and we all have to die some day. Society will go on after we are gone.

spiral out wrote:

100% agree with you here.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

your trying to goad me and thats dumb.

I know what the things are that you believe the govt is doing to all its citizens... therfore i'm not clueless.. i know what you're on about... there's a massive difference.

you speak as if its the absolute truth... yet you know nothing about the machinations of a government and what it does... you work on a construction site and believe that they are out to get us all... tracking us and what we do, watching what we buy, eat, wear, read, who we talk to , have sex with, type on a message board, meet on the street, read on a blog..

and i'm clueless???

Yep!

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Well yes they can do that Helen. And they do.

But like cate I have a lot of faith in ordinary people to stand up when they object and they do. I think what people fail to remember is that it's not government you're really dealing with anymore anyway, it's the World Bank and the WEF and those wheelers and dealers at the top with all the money. The multinational corporations and frankly I don't see too many people baulking at globalization. Even the consipiracy theorists seem to think it's a good idea. :(

Oh yes, of course people stand up... but the general consensus is that they're drugged up hippies... or simply 'nuts' as dunk would have everyone believe that I am. You can't speak out against these things or society tries to make a fool of ya. People think globalization's a good idea? And yes, I know it's the superclass... but I wish some governments would have the balls to stand up to them but no they'll give them more and more.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

you don't even live there.. i said for the 99% of people in the US life is exactly the same... and it is... ask them. so how many people did 'vanish' Helen??? you tell me...

i never mentioned CHina, or the world?

where things are going??? do you own a crystal ball now?

what is so intrusive in your life that you cant live it properly?

No, I mentioned China and the world... you chose to ignore the fact that I did! You don't think Chinese people consider themselves 'normal' like those normal people you referred to who get to live as they want?

Oh I can live my life properly... as it stands... but there are BILLIONS of people who CAN'T... yep, billions dunk! And very often you see governments slowly remove one more little right from people. And nope, I don't live in the US but hey you've never even been there as for your 99%??????????? HUH? Haven't you heard of the patriot act? :eek:

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yep!

brilliant answer... as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.


Helen, it appears you are the clueless one... as you actually have no idea what it is yours, or anyones, government is up to... so you're clueless

Heineken Helen

spiral out wrote:

But when will enough be enough and people actually stand up and say something? My guess is when it is far too late.

unfortunately yes! And hey, as long as there are people like dunk who laugh at us and call us nuts and tell us we should forget about it and just have kids and get a mortgage... well........... :(

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

People stand up now. This isn't a new thing, it's how the world has operated for a very long time. The rich and powerful have always controlled the masses. The difficult thing for them now is that we've all been brought up in Western culture to believe we are individuals and that we all have the ability to succeed at anything. So the pyramid got fat in the middle and now they're trying to force all the masses back down into the bottom of the pyramid. This recession we're going into will force a lot of change. And far too late? Sorry spiral but far too late? What does that even mean? The only time it's too late is when you're dead and we all have to die some day. Society will go on after we are gone.

How many people stand up now? Don't worry, I'm not asking for actual figures or anything but wouldn't you agree that a far greater number of people just get on with their day to day lives and dismiss those who DO stand up as fruitcakes... and suggest their energy be better put to the test elsewhere?

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

brilliant answer... as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.


Helen, it appears you are the clueless one... as you actually have no idea what it is yours, or anyones, government is up to... so you're clueless

Perhaps if you debated my point, rather than point out that I work on a building site so what the fuck would I know... well I might have put some thought into my answer.

DO YOU have a clue what any government is up to? I have quite a bit of information as to their capabilities... as a lot of people do... and the fact that governments often prove to not be working in their peoples interests... well why should they be trusted with those capabilities?

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh I can live my life properly... as it stands... but there are BILLIONS of people who CAN'T... yep, billions dunk! And very often you see governments slowly remove one more little right from people. And nope, I don't live in the US but hey you've never even been there as for your 99%??????????? HUH? Haven't you heard of the patriot act? :eek:

you are more free today than you were in any other time.. simple fact.
i care more about my current life than i care about billions of people i dont even know. Cuba has been a communist state for years.... Communism is one of the most restrictive and intrusive forms of governments you can have... and yet millions think Castro is a hero for standing up to AMerica... he's a retard who jails his own people simply because they speak out against his regime.

99% of americans are in no way affected directly by the patriot act... they live their life as they did before 9/11... simple fact.

there is nothing you can do it about the government of China... i mean you as in you... you can join some hippy protest march if you want but they dont give a fuck... and neither do i

LONGRD

Heineken Helen wrote:

No, I mentioned China and the world... you chose to ignore the fact that I did! You don't think Chinese people consider themselves 'normal' like those normal people you referred to who get to live as they want?

Oh I can live my life properly... as it stands... but there are BILLIONS of people who CAN'T... yep, billions dunk! And very often you see governments slowly remove one more little right from people. And nope, I don't live in the US but hey you've never even been there as for your 99%??????????? HUH? Haven't you heard of the patriot act? :eek:

My life was not interfered or altered whatsoever by the Patriot Act. :cool:

Collin

LongRd. wrote:

My life was not interfered or altered whatsoever by the Patriot Act. :cool:

That may be so, but because of it your life can be interfered with or altered. The possibility is there and you can't do anything about it.

I think that if a law, an act, a treaty or whatever can affect someone, if it does infringe upon someone's rights, even if it's only one person, it is a threat to me too.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Perhaps if you debated my point, rather than point out that I work on a building site so what the fuck would I know... well I might have put some thought into my answer.

DO YOU have a clue what any government is up to? I have quite a bit of information as to their capabilities... as a lot of people do... and the fact that governments often prove to not be working in their peoples interests... well why should they be trusted with those capabilities?

i work for the government Hells...

they should be trusted because you voted for them... if you cant trust them then dont vote... but by voting then you are, by default, entrusting them with your interests.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

you are more free today than you were in any other time.. simple fact.
i care more about my current life than i care about billions of people i dont even know. Cuba has been a communist state for years.... Communism is one of the most restrictive and intrusive forms of governments you can have... and yet millions think Castro is a hero for standing up to AMerica... he's a retard who jails his own people simply because they speak out against his regime.

Stop calling things 'simple fact' when it's a matter of opinion. And yes, I do realise that I take a lot of freedoms for granted that simply don't exist anywhere else... and I'm forever grateful for that... which is why I don't see why there is any need to give any of it up... no matter how little it seems to you... give one small freedom up every month and in 5/10 years you might notice a difference... probably even quicker than that. There are not billions of people living in Cuba... I'm not suggesting you become a communist... and nowhere did I even mention Cuba

dunkman wrote:

99% of americans are in no way affected directly by the patriot act... they live their life as they did before 9/11... simple fact.

I don't know... nor do you... whether they live their lives as they did before 9/11... but I believe the patriot act actually covers ALL Americans. I mean tell me if I'm wrong here but doesn't that mean 100% of Americans are affected BY the patriot act? :cool: See we can all pull figures out of our arse... if you're gonna use statistics and percentages, back them up.

dunkman wrote:

there is nothing you can do it about the government of China... i mean you as in you... you can join some hippy protest march if you want but they dont give a fuck... and neither do i

Evidently!

TrixieCat

Collin wrote:

That may be so, but because of it your life can be interfered with or altered. The possibility is there and you can't do anything about it.

I think that if a law, an act, a treaty or whatever can affect someone, if it does infringe upon someone's rights, even if it's only one person, it is a threat to me too.

If some dude is whipping up bombs in his basement next door or laundering cash to support his upcoming terrorist attack then you can bet your ass I want his life interferred with.

Heineken Helen

Collin wrote:

That may be so, but because of it your life can be interfered with or altered. The possibility is there and you can't do anything about it.

Thank you! It's just so simple isn't it? I mean how many completely innocent peoples lives were turned upside down as a direct result of the patriot act.

dunkman

Collin wrote:

That may be so, but because of it your life can be interfered with or altered. The possibility is there and you can't do anything about it.

that may be the case... but that person will most likely never know... the FBI might be reading this very page... but our lives have not been changed in way or form.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i work for the government Hells...

they should be trusted because you voted for them... if you cant trust them then dont vote... but by voting then you are, by default, entrusting them with your interests.

I didn't vote for them. For many many reasons! And yes, I know you work for the government... what is it you do again? Make maps? Ah yes... I see how you would then be so much more informed about all of this! :rolleyes:

TrixieCat

dunkman wrote:

that may be the case... but that person will most likely never know... the FBI might be reading this very page... but our lives have not been changed in way or form.

If you don't want to be "affected" by the patriot act, then get your ass of the grid.
Simple.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Thank you! It's just so simple isn't it? I mean how many completely innocent peoples lives were turned upside down as a direct result of the patriot act.

about 4 most likely.

if you dont know the answer then stop promoting suppositions