Pushing the Envelope

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

oh for crying out loud... dont play the woman card with me.

sorry. Couldn't help it.

catefrances wrote:

i am not concerned for the world my children and grand daughter will inherit because i am aware that throughout history people have been thrown up who make it their mission to right the wrongs. perhaps this attitude of mine is caused by the fact that ive grown up in australia. our history is not long enough for me to be concerned. we have certainly never suspended habeus corpus, never had a civil war, never been invaded by a colonial power. and yes i say this all from the view point of a privileged white person. and i am well aware of how biased my statements are. the world is not as small as people think. the actions of certain governments would never find purchase in my own. am i naive? no, i dont think so. i just do not believe that as a people australians would allow themselves to be cuckolded to the point of having our rights abused. if i ever thought for a second my rights under threat or even crowded upon i would stand at the top of the steps of the town hall and voice my dissent.(actually come to think of it, ive already done that on more than one occasion) i guerss i just have more faith in my people than my government.
there is not one world but many worlds and i think that too many people forget that.

OK, that's a reasonable answer. But there is one thing that springs immediately to mind... Australia were heavily involved in the war in Iraq... whether it was against your and your fellow country peoples wishes is irrelevent to those who simply see you as part of the coalition. I'm also sorry to tell you that Australia's government are known here to be pretty racist and intolerant (not my personal opinion... just pointing out how it's viewed). So whether you like it or not, your government has made you a target... your government was no better than that of the US or the UK... your current status in the world isn't far off of theirs! :( So if I were you I would be concerned for the image your government has created of Australia... and how that bodes for your kids futures.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

could you???

shit hells... if you dont think the government watched their public in the 2nd world war then you are deeply deeply mistaken... think about those adverts for "the walls have ears" and stuff like that.

people would be jailed on hearsay, arrested without trial for the good of the war effort, etc etc ... men would go around the streets at night in london and fine people or jail them if they had no money for leaving a chink of light showing during the Blitz... the government read everyones letters that went out of the country... all non-nationals were herded up and made to live in compounds whilst they were investigated...

and you think that was a good way for it to be? Hey, if the people weren't doing anything wrong, why should they worry?

You don't understand how easy it would be for it to go BACK to that... and worse BECAUSE of all the modern technology. Governments are capable of that... OUR governments are capable of that... and yet you're still not concerned?

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

No, you're not aware... your opinion that we're not being watched and if we are, so what? could potentially grant governments WAY too much power. Unfortunately there are too many people who think like you!

you watch the X-files? :rolleyes:

life for us normal folk has been untouched for hundreds of years... i see no reason for it to be any different in the next 100 years...

i am aware of your theories Helen... i chose not to let them bother me.. that doesnt make me unaware... it makes me apathetic to rumour and scaremongering

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

you watch the X-files? :rolleyes:

life for us normal folk has been untouched for hundreds of years... i see no reason for it to be any different in the next 100 years...

i am aware of your theories Helen... i chose not to let them bother me.. that doesnt make me unaware... it makes me apathetic to rumour and scaremongering

Huh... you think I have sleepless nights tossing and turning worrying about this stuff? Nope... and no, I wasn't much of a fan of the xfiles... you've met me... if you hadn't chatted to me here first or know this stuff I think about, would you have thought I seemed like someone with the weight of the world on my shoulders? I doubt it. Cos I don't... I love life and I enjoy life and I really think we should all be allowed to live free without the governments needing to know too much about us... what is WRONG with that?

Life for 'us normal folk' untouched for hundreds of years? Perhaps... unless you live in China, or Burma or Post 9/11 US, etc, etc.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

and you think that was a good way for it to be? Hey, if the people weren't doing anything wrong, why should they worry?

eh?

where did i say it was a good way to be? i said that we have more 'freedom' now than we did back then... or the US had during McCarthyism... i didnt say wartime britain was better?

exactly.. i do nothing wrong.. if a government wants to see what i borrow from a library, rent out on dvd, buy at Tesco, spend on my car... then i couldnt care.. cos i know they dont do that... the only track people the BELIEVE to be carrying out illegal activities.. you cant take inadmissable telephone conversations into a court.. you just cant... it needs authorised.. and i do nothing illegal, so if they want to listen to me talk to my friend about football then good for them... but they wont.

heineken Helen wrote:

You don't understand how easy it would be for it to go BACK to that... and worse BECAUSE of all the modern technology. Governments are capable of that... OUR governments are capable of that... and yet you're still not concerned?

i do understand.. i dont need you to tell me what i'm not aware of or dont understand.. i know how we could fall back into those times... but in the current situation i dont envisage it happening... so i dont concern myself with it... i concern myself with doing my work, raising my kids and spending any money i have on nice holidays and stuff... i dont care to protest against something that doesnt exist.

and no i;m not concerned.. WHY SHOULD I BE? answer that for cate and i? why should I, me, be concerned?

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Life for 'us normal folk' untouched for hundreds of years? Perhaps... unless you live in China, or Burma or Post 9/11 US, etc, etc.

post 9/11 US for 99% of its people remains exactly the same as pre 9/11... my wife's relatives live in Virginia and other than an extra check or two at an airport life is exactly the same.

I love life and I enjoy life and I really think we should all be allowed to live free without the governments needing to know too much about us... what is WRONG with that?

and you've met me... i love life and i enjoy it... i dont need a government to ALLOW me to live my life as i want to... they can check up on me all the want... i couldnt give a fuck.. in fact i'll not even know about it... so life as I and you know it, would be exactly the same... ergo.. why go so worked up about it?

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

sorry. Couldn't help it.


OK, that's a reasonable answer. But there is one thing that springs immediately to mind... Australia were heavily involved in the war in Iraq... whether it was against your and your fellow country peoples wishes is irrelevent to those who simply see you as part of the coalition. I'm also sorry to tell you that Australia's government are known here to be pretty racist and intolerant (not my personal opinion... just pointing out how it's viewed). So whether you like it or not, your government has made you a target... your government was no better than that of the US or the UK... your current status in the world isn't far off of theirs! :( So if I were you I would be concerned for the image your government has created of Australia... and how that bodes for your kids futures.

We've already been targetted for our participation in Iraq Helen, and we lost a lot of good people. As to our government and how it is viewed well I don't see it as any different to other parts of the world. We the people, are not our governments, thinking folk know that.

LONGRD

dunkman wrote:

maybe they can see it but their personal life is considered more important than that of 'worrying' whether their government is listening to their very mundane and extremely long telephone conversations

:cool: This man speaks the truth!

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

sorry. Couldn't help it.


OK, that's a reasonable answer. But there is one thing that springs immediately to mind... Australia were heavily involved in the war in Iraq... whether it was against your and your fellow country peoples wishes is irrelevent to those who simply see you as part of the coalition. I'm also sorry to tell you that Australia's government are known here to be pretty racist and intolerant (not my personal opinion... just pointing out how it's viewed). So whether you like it or not, your government has made you a target... your government was no better than that of the US or the UK... your current status in the world isn't far off of theirs! :( So if I were you I would be concerned for the image your government has created of Australia... and how that bodes for your kids futures.

you asked me why i wasnt concerned and i told you. theres nothing more i can say. i am not by nature an alarmist.

and there's no need to shy away from calling the australian government racist. we are all aware of our history.

and as jeanie pointed out, we have already been victim to our government's policies. we remember well the bombings in bali. am i concerned that my eldest child is flying to bali in 2 days? no i am not.

what is it exactly you want to hear from me helen?

spiral out

Somehow this springs to mind when people argue that nothing is going on for any of us to be concerned with today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

The boiling frog story states that a frog can be boiled alive if the water is heated slowly enough — it is said that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will never jump out.

The story is generally told in a figurative context, with the upshot being that people should make themselves aware of gradual change lest they suffer a catastrophic loss. Often it is used to illustrate a slippery-slope argument. For example, many civil libertarians argue that even minor increases in government authority, which may seem less noteworthy, make future increases in that authority more likely: what would once have seemed a huge power grab, the argument goes, now becomes seen as just another incremental increase, and thus appears more palatable. In the boiling-frog allegory, the frog represents the citizenry, whilst the gradual heating of the water represents the incremental encroachment of government. Others have used it as an analogy with the growth of the offshore-world over decades, and how ordinary citizens have accepted the presence of abusive tax havens.

catefrances

spiral out wrote:

Somehow this springs to mind when people argue that nothing is going on for any of us to be concerned with today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

im not a frog.

spiral out

catefrances wrote:

im not a frog.

Lol, I'm sure your not.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

eh?

where did i say it was a good way to be? i said that we have more 'freedom' now than we did back then... or the US had during McCarthyism... i didnt say wartime britain was better?

exactly.. i do nothing wrong.. if a government wants to see what i borrow from a library, rent out on dvd, buy at Tesco, spend on my car... then i couldnt care.. cos i know they dont do that... the only track people the BELIEVE to be carrying out illegal activities.. you cant take inadmissable telephone conversations into a court.. you just cant... it needs authorised.. and i do nothing illegal, so if they want to listen to me talk to my friend about football then good for them... but they wont.

i do understand.. i dont need you to tell me what i'm not aware of or dont understand.. i know how we could fall back into those times... but in the current situation i dont envisage it happening... so i dont concern myself with it... i concern myself with doing my work, raising my kids and spending any money i have on nice holidays and stuff... i dont care to protest against something that doesnt exist.

and no i;m not concerned.. WHY SHOULD I BE? answer that for cate and i? why should I, me, be concerned?

Ok then... you choose to remain clueless... fair enough

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

post 9/11 US for 99% of its people remains exactly the same as pre 9/11... my wife's relatives live in Virginia and other than an extra check or two at an airport life is exactly the same.

SURE it is! :rolleyes: How many people vanished after 9/11? How many people vanish ALL THE TIME in China and all over the world? I'm sure they too weren't concerned about how things were going.

dunkman wrote:

and you've met me... i love life and i enjoy it... i dont need a government to ALLOW me to live my life as i want to... they can check up on me all the want... i couldnt give a fuck.. in fact i'll not even know about it... so life as I and you know it, would be exactly the same... ergo.. why go so worked up about it?

who's worked up?

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

We've already been targetted for our participation in Iraq Helen, and we lost a lot of good people. As to our government and how it is viewed well I don't see it as any different to other parts of the world. We the people, are not our governments, thinking folk know that.

Oh I know that Jeanie... but how many times do governments make choices completely against the wishes of their people? Our government has let quite a bit slide too... I'm not targetting any nation at all... but just pointing out to Cate, which I'm sure she knows, how simple it is for a government simply to decide to do whatever the hell they want at any time... in OUR name.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

you asked me why i wasnt concerned and i told you. theres nothing more i can say. i am not by nature an alarmist.

and there's no need to shy away from calling the australian government racist. we are all aware of our history.

and as jeanie pointed out, we have already been victim to our government's policies. we remember well the bombings in bali. am i concerned that my eldest child is flying to bali in 2 days? no i am not.

what is it exactly you want to hear from me helen?

who's asking anyone to be an alarmist? I'm not saying people should be afraid... or worry or lose sleep... but the fact that some people think it's OK... well THAT's a little bit strange... there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and refusing to go along with it... and losing sleep. I don't wanna be a sheep and just go along with things cos it's the easy option.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Ok then... you choose to remain clueless... fair enough

your trying to goad me and thats dumb.

I know what the things are that you believe the govt is doing to all its citizens... therfore i'm not clueless.. i know what you're on about... there's a massive difference.

you speak as if its the absolute truth... yet you know nothing about the machinations of a government and what it does... you work on a construction site and believe that they are out to get us all... tracking us and what we do, watching what we buy, eat, wear, read, who we talk to , have sex with, type on a message board, meet on the street, read on a blog..

and i'm clueless??? gimme a fucking break

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh I know that Jeanie... but how many times do governments make choices completely against the wishes of their people? Our government has let quite a bit slide too... I'm not targetting any nation at all... but just pointing out to Cate, which I'm sure she knows, how simple it is for a government simply to decide to do whatever the hell they want at any time... in OUR name.

Well yes they can do that Helen. And they do.

But like cate I have a lot of faith in ordinary people to stand up when they object and they do. I think what people fail to remember is that it's not government you're really dealing with anymore anyway, it's the World Bank and the WEF and those wheelers and dealers at the top with all the money. The multinational corporations and frankly I don't see too many people baulking at globalization. Even the consipiracy theorists seem to think it's a good idea. :(

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

SURE it is! :rolleyes: How many people vanished after 9/11? How many people vanish ALL THE TIME in China and all over the world? I'm sure they too weren't concerned about how things were going.

you don't even live there.. i said for the 99% of people in the US life is exactly the same... and it is... ask them. so how many people did 'vanish' Helen??? you tell me...

i never mentioned CHina, or the world?

where things are going??? do you own a crystal ball now?

what is so intrusive in your life that you cant live it properly?

spiral out

Jeanie wrote:

But like cate I have a lot of faith in ordinary people to stand up when they object and they do.

But when will enough be enough and people actually stand up and say something? My guess is when it is far too late.

Jeanie wrote:

I think what people fail to remember is that it's not government you're really dealing with anymore anyway, it's the World Bank and the WEF and those wheelers and dealers at the top with all the money. The multinational corporations and frankly I don't see too many people baulking at globalization. Even the consipiracy theorists seem to think it's a good idea. :(

100% agree with you here.