Bush to sign bill for Mexican border fence

jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
where do you stand on this issue?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_immigration


I believe people should come to this country legally. we cant have open borders in this country
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • This fence has nothing to do with immigration.

    It's again a politic choice just to show the gov cares.
    Sadly, if they really cared, they wouldn't do a fence, but find a way, with concerned countries, to find a proper way to counter illegal immigration.

    But really, that fence won't help. It's useless, just like the isreali's or the german's.
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Jackhammer wrote:
    This fence has nothing to do with immigration.

    It's again a politic choice just to show the gov cares.
    Sadly, if they really cared, they wouldn't do a fence, but find a way, with concerned countries, to find a proper way to counter illegal immigration.

    But really, that fence won't help. It's useless, just like the isreali's or the german's.


    I agree there are better ways to deal with this issue, but a fence definately helps. maybe 500,000 get in as opposed to 3 million next year
  • It' already an old topic.

    Repression VS Prevention.

    Instead of searching of ways as hows and whys there's that much immigration, and deal with it, they prefer to build a wall.

    That won't help. People who wants to go through will make it.
    Everytime there is represion, the only thing you can be sure of is that trespassers will find another way around, and the game will go on.

    That reminds me...

    "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" ;)
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I believe people should come to this country legally. we cant have open borders in this country

    I'm sitting on the fence with this one :rolleyes:

    they would come in legally but you make it sooo damn hard... ironic really seeing as how America is a nation if immigrants
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Puck78Puck78 Posts: 737
    what about an aerial fence covering all the US in order to avoid people jumping somehow in YOUR country, using air-balloons, etc?
    www.amnesty.org
    www.amnesty.org.uk
  • I suggest something like a micro-chip.

    The gov could implant it on americans, detecting where they are at any given time. All those without implant goes to dea... I mean, work camp ;)
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    I'm sitting on the fence with this one :rolleyes:

    they would come in legally but you make it sooo damn hard... ironic really seeing as how America is a nation if immigrants

    a nation of legal immigrants. Yes the first settlers came before it was a country but since it has been a country we have welcomed a lot of legal immigrants. And they have thrived here. No one is suggesting keeping legal immigrants from coming here, ok there are some, but the fence is aimed at illegal immigrants, which i have no problem with keeping them out.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    chopitdown wrote:
    a nation of legal immigrants. Yes the first settlers came before it was a country but since it has been a country we have welcomed a lot of legal immigrants. And they have thrived here. No one is suggesting keeping legal immigrants from coming here, ok there are some, but the fence is aimed at illegal immigrants, which i have no problem with keeping them out.

    fair enough... but america used to welcome people with open arms... now it makes it unbelievably hard... that was where the irony came in.

    the native americans should tell you all to get the fuck out of their country as i'm quite sure they werent given any legal papers that allowed the first settlers... what right do you have over mexicans wanting to do the same!

    I'm not advocating illegal immigration... far from it, but america has practically closed its borders these days, and yet it was founded on the principles of being a melting pot... but then again controls do have to be in place somewhere... so whilst i'm against fences (think Berlin Wall) i agree that all immigrants should be legal
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Legal immigrants! hahahahaha

    Ask to native american if it was legal immigration!
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    fair enough... but america used to welcome people with open arms... now it makes it unbelievably hard... that was where the irony came in.

    the native americans should tell you all to get the fuck out of their country as i'm quite sure they werent given any legal papers that allowed the first settlers... what right do you have over mexicans wanting to do the same!

    I'm not advocating illegal immigration... far from it, but america has practically closed its borders these days, and yet it was founded on the principles of being a melting pot... but then again controls do have to be in place somewhere... so whilst i'm against fences (think Berlin Wall) i agree that all immigrants should be legal

    it did welcome people with open arms and i think we have to make it harder now...we have 300 million people here and i think it's our responsibility to take care of them before we just let more people arrive that we can't care and provide services for.

    Well the difference is now, we have legal papers defining the country so it's vastly different from settlers arriving somewhere with no legal definition and sovereignty and mexican illegal immigrants demanding to be included in a different country, imo.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Jackhammer wrote:
    Legal immigrants! hahahahaha

    Ask to native american if it was legal immigration!

    well if the native americans had an immigration policy and we neglected it then we were illegal immigrants. please read the rest of my post, where i acknowledge that issue.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • No problem, I wasn't aiming at you personally.

    It's just that I don't buy any of these "legal immigration" stuff, nor do I accept that to one point in history, it was okay jut to kill everyone and take the land for granted, and now it isn't anymore.

    Immigration can be organized, so that immigrants can find ways to get integrated (what a horrible word), but the main problem with illegal immigrants is that, they have no legal life, therefor they place themselves (and eventually the society they choose to join) in difficulties.

    BUT it's the job of everyone to make sure we keep things balanced.

    And no govs will ever managed that. Especially not by building walls.


    The point is, immigration, along with other sensitive topic, should be dealt with NOW, but govs have to make that altogether, or it won't ever work.

    Edit: If native american had an immigration policy, the settlers would have just made the same. Beat the crap out of everyone, then take over the land ;)
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    Jackhammer wrote:
    No problem, I wasn't aiming at you personally.

    It's just that I don't buy any of these "legal immigration" stuff, nor do I accept that to one point in history, it was okay jut to kill everyone and take the land for granted, and now it isn't anymore.

    Immigration can be organized, so that immigrants can find ways to get integrated (what a horrible word), but the main problem with illegal immigrants is that, they have no legal life, therefor they place themselves (and eventually the society they choose to join) in difficulties.

    BUT it's the job of everyone to make sure we keep things balanced.

    And no govs will ever managed that. Especially not by building walls.


    The point is, immigration, along with other sensitive topic, should be dealt with NOW, but govs have to make that altogether, or it won't ever work.


    my bad then.

    I agree that it wasn't ok to take the land and kill the people. But that is in the past and we can't go back and change it, we can only make sure it doesn't happen again.

    I agree with your point that we have to deal with it now and the govts of the respectful countries have to work together. I think the wall is a good start, simply b/c it's a drastic measure, then once the govt's work together we can tear the fence down. I think the wall is sort of like the reset button. We realize there's a problem and we can't really remedy it quickly w/o a drastic change.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • No harm done ;)

    I can understand your point, but I somehow have the feeling that the US gov did that so that people think the matter is being worked out.

    Look how long that damn wall stood up in germany. and now, even though its down, there are still problem, and it won't be worked out before at least 20 years.

    At least we agree that the govs and people have to work it out fast and altogether :)
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Jackhammer wrote:
    No harm done ;)

    I can understand your point, but I somehow have the feeling that the US gov did that so that people think the matter is being worked out.

    Look how long that damn wall stood up in germany. and now, even though its down, there are still problem, and it won't be worked out before at least 20 years.

    At least we agree that the govs and people have to work it out fast and altogether :)


    people dont think the issue is worked out. this is just a first step. now we have to deal with the millions of illegal immigrants in this country. I like Bush's idea of worker card or program.

    you cant compare germany's wall to this one. this wall isnt going up at the mississippi river. its going next to a country that never was part of the US and never will be.
  • I know the situation isn't the same as with Germany.

    My point was, it made more problems than it solved.

    When a country is doing omething like that, it is always understand as a sign of isolationism, protectionism (at best) and nationalism or fascism (at worst).

    Do you think immigrants will think "damn, now there is that wall, we're screwed" ?

    It'll maybe make it harder to go through, but it's only a matter of time before they find another way to enter. and then the problem has to be worked over again.

    I really honestly don't believe that it is a step in the right direction, and I don't think one should expect further measures from the gov before some time, eventually until new elections.

    Then again, I'm not american, so I might not understand something that is completely normal for you, and the opposite...
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • caifan82caifan82 Posts: 321
    It's so much more than making it harder. I've posted this before but here it goes again. I have a pretty decent job, I own a car and I'm paying for a house. I have a college degree and I speak English (Although I do have an awful accent). My company has tried to send me to 2 conferences in the US twice already. I got both American Visa requests rejected. Why? It seems there weren't enough guarantees I would be coming back here. I can only imagine how it is for the other people.
    Now, I'm not justifying illegal immigration. Not because getting a visa is extremely hard (or impossible for me) it is OK to sneak through the border. But I do think the statue of liberty should get a new line added. Something like "Valid until 19XX (fill up a date), or if you have a shitload of cash".
    Also, even though many illegal immigrants are Mexican, not all of them are. As far as i know, there are people from all over the world in that status. Would be nice to stop reading generalizations.
    Mexico City - July 17th 2003
    Mexico City - July 18th 2003
    Mexico City - July 19th 2003
    Monterrey - December 7th 2005
    Mexico City - December 9th 2005
    Mexico City - December 10th 2005
    Mexico City - November 24th 2011
  • jlew24asu wrote:

    Sad. At best a waste of time and money. At worst a very disheartening statement about our country.
    I believe people should come to this country legally. we cant have open borders in this country

    Why not?
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Jackhammer wrote:
    I know the situation isn't the same as with Germany.

    My point was, it made more problems than it solved.

    When a country is doing omething like that, it is always understand as a sign of isolationism, protectionism (at best) and nationalism or fascism (at worst).

    Do you think immigrants will think "damn, now there is that wall, we're screwed" ?

    It'll maybe make it harder to go through, but it's only a matter of time before they find another way to enter. and then the problem has to be worked over again.

    I really honestly don't believe that it is a step in the right direction, and I don't think one should expect further measures from the gov before some time, eventually until new elections.

    Then again, I'm not american, so I might not understand something that is completely normal for you, and the opposite...


    yes absolutely. some will think that. A large secure wall that is nearly impposbile to climb is much better then a chain link fence and it some areas, nothing at all.

    its not just a wall either, more border patrol agents will back it up.

    Illegal immigration is a very sesitive issue here because there are just so many of them. no americans really want them all to leave, we just want them to be here legally and not abuse our system. we shouldnt have to foot the bill for their healthcare and housing or whatever.

    a large mostly secure fence (sure someone will find a way if they want), more border patrol, and a guest worker program is a excellent step in the right direction.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Sad. At best a waste of time and money. At worst a very disheartening statement about our country.



    Why not?

    dishearting how?


    so you want an open border?
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    1.2 Billion Dollar down payment...yikes...!! and they have no idea how much it's going to cost...I think that's just plain stupid...

    another thought, I wonder where they will find the laborers to build this thing...I bet they could keep the costs down by using "cheap" labor...
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    inmytree wrote:
    1.2 Billion Dollar down payment...yikes...!! and they have no idea how much it's going to cost...I think that's just plain stupid......

    whats even dumber is you lack of knowledge on the american budget. 1.2 billion might be alot to you and me. but not the governement. whats alot more expensive is the cost of illegal immigrants "free" healthcare. who do you think pays that bill?
    inmytree wrote:
    another thought, I wonder where they will find the laborers to build this thing...I bet they could keep the costs down by using "cheap" labor...


    thats a great though. maybe we can use a mexican worker with a guest worker card. both sides win
  • I saw something weird on tv, and it just made sense now.

    Immigrants are coming through because of the first spaceport!

    should be located in new mexico ;)
    Reality isn't what it used to be.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    dishearting how?

    Two major reasons:

    1) That we would be so scared of harmless immigrants that we'd build a massive wall to "protect" ourselves from them.
    2) That we would be so stupid to enact social structures that force us to actively prevent people who want nothing more than a better way of life from joining our communities.
    so you want an open border?

    I want a border so open that it renders to concept of "border" to the esoteric back pages of civics books.
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    jlew24asu wrote:
    whats even dumber is you lack of knowledge on the american budget.

    Ok, I have to ask...why do you feel the need to come off like a dick...? I'm serious...
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Two major reasons:

    1) That we would be so scared of harmless immigrants that we'd build a massive wall to "protect" ourselves from them..

    its all fun and good that you think all immigrants are harmless. maybe you should join the real world.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
    2) That we would be so stupid to enact social structures that force us to actively prevent people who want nothing more than a better way of life from joining our communities...

    why shouldnt they do it legally?
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    its all fun and good that you think all immigrants are harmless. maybe you should join the real world.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

    I never meant to imply all immigrants are harmless. Just like any group of people, some are harmful and the majority are not. The vast majority of the immigrants (illegal or otherwise) that come to this nation are not gang member as Ms. MacDonald would like you to believe.

    Building a fence that prevents 100 immigrants from coming to this nation becaue 1 of them might commit a violent crime is not that different from imprisoning your entire town just because some members of your community might one day commit a similar violent crime. It's punishing the innocent for the future crimes of the guilty.
    why shouldnt they do it legally?

    Because such legality is completely unneccessary. If I passed a law that said you had to call your city hall to ask permission before you take a shit, how would you feel if I asked you "why shouldnt you do it legally?"

    The face of immigration is not the criminal or the leech. The face of immigration is your great grandmother's face, or the face of a man who wants nothing more than to partake in the unique opportunities this nation has to offer. If I have the right to deny another's chance to participate, on what grounds would I have to protest another denying my right to participate? Being born here is not an accomplishment. It is luck. And such luck does not entitle me to deny the man or woman who wishes to work to get here.
  • Puck78Puck78 Posts: 737
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why shouldnt they do it legally?
    time for you to get some information on how difficult it is to come to the USA...
    www.amnesty.org
    www.amnesty.org.uk
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I never meant to imply all immigrants are harmless. Just like any group of people, some are harmful and the majority are not. The vast majority of the immigrants (illegal or otherwise) that come to this nation are not gang member as Ms. MacDonald would like you to believe.

    Building a fence that prevents 100 immigrants from coming to this nation becaue 1 of them might commit a violent crime is not that different from imprisoning your entire town just because some members of your community might one day commit a similar violent crime. It's punishing the innocent for the future crimes of the guilty.



    Because such legality is completely unneccessary. If I passed a law that said you had to call your city hall to ask permission before you take a shit, how would you feel if I asked you "why shouldnt you do it legally?"

    The face of immigration is not the criminal or the leech. The face of immigration is your great grandmother's face, or the face of a man who wants nothing more than to partake in the unique opportunities this nation has to offer. If I have the right to deny another's chance to participate, on what grounds would I have to protest another denying my right to participate? Being born here is not an accomplishment. It is luck. And such luck does not entitle me to deny the man or woman who wishes to work to get here.


    I agree that everyone should have a fair chance at becoming an american. times are different now then they were when my great grandma came here. the world is a different place. america cant open its arms (borders) to anyone without some kind of process. visa, worker card, whatever.

    there has to be laws for coming into this country. and those laws should be followed and enforced. if we, as a country, dont like those laws, we elect people to change them for us.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    I agree that everyone should have a fair chance at becoming an american.

    No you don't. You believe some people should have one set of chances and another should have a different set of chances. That isn't fair.
    times are different now then they were when my great grandma came here.

    Why? Because some crazy douchebags who followed your legal process attacked New York?
    the world is a different place. america cant open its arms (borders) to anyone without some kind of process. visa, worker card, whatever.

    Stop pretending. America can do that. Nothing is preventing it from doing so except its own fear and irrationality.
    there has to be laws for coming into this country.

    There "has" to be??? Why? Is that the 11th Commandment or something?
    and those laws should be followed and enforced. if we, as a country, dont like those laws, we elect people to change them for us.

    Ok.
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