Then you are just subscribing to faith and no amount of logic can convince me of something that requires faith.
I don't know if you saw where farfromglorified and myself were debating faith earlier today. Clearly, he and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Farfromglorified, like you, processes information based on logic, too. And yet he and I have had deep indepth discussions on our vastly different views because even when we disagree, we accept the validity of a logical assertion from one another. Logic is it's own indicator! Philosophy can be as simple as that. It has nothing to do with accepting concepts you disagree with. I only ask that you keep your mind open and to honestly consider a concept by assessing it before you judge it. Once you have made that assessment, and you still disagree, great. The way things stand between us at this point, you are not willing to consider what I am saying based on logic. It seems that you do not trust your own ability to use logic independent of the established schools of thought of the day. Ahnimus, you are meant to be an independent thinker. You are in the top some percentile of intelligence. You have the capacity to think and consider far beyond what is established. If you dare....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I don't know if you saw where farfromglorified and myself were debating faith earlier today. Clearly, he and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Farfromglorified, like you, processes information based on logic, too. And yet he and I have had deep indepth discussions on our vastly different views because even when we disagree, we accept the validity of a logical assertion from one another. Logic is it's own indicator! Philosophy can be as simple as that. It has nothing to do with accepting concepts you disagree with. I only ask that you keep your mind open and to honestly consider a concept by assessing it before you judge it. Once you have made that assessment, and you still disagree, great. The way things stand between us at this point, you are not willing to consider what I am saying based on logic. It seems that you do not trust your own ability to use logic independent of the established schools of thought of the day. Ahnimus, you are meant to be an independent thinker. You are in the top some percentile of intelligence. You have the capacity to think and consider far beyond what is established. If you dare....
That's not it at all, I accept the fractal universe as a great theory. It's the one theory that actually makes sense in terms of the structure of the universe. But it's also a rather pointless discussion.
The problem I have with your theories is spinning off some tangent about spirituality which is neither valid physically or logically.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Is a child's life better if they believe in Santa Clause than if they do not... I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that it is. In-fact, such belief simply raises greater dillemas down the road.
lol
Oh come on now????? Didn't you see the Polar Express????? Brought a tear to my eye when I watched it with my niece and nephews.
So what's the solution? Belief in nothing? Because even then we will have to "believe" certain things about people and have faith and belief dictate our lives.
How do you think society would act with belief in just themselves or nothing???????
"She knows there is no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
So you are agreeing that a person's perception of something being real makes it 100% real in their experience, even if objectively it is not physically real?
Absolutely
You do know that the subjective experience is real. You know it happens within the natural existing reality system. While it may be of a different nature than scientific understanding, it is still real.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
That's not it at all, I accept the fractal universe as a great theory. It's the one theory that actually makes sense in terms of the structure of the universe. But it's also a rather pointless discussion.
The problem I have with your theories is spinning off some tangent about spirituality which is neither valid physically or logically.
What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.
you are smart. don't respond to the ill lee gitt er itt.
What I am proposing is that we operate within independent thought. What I mean is that we adhere to the truth of logical discernment, but that we consider any concept fairly, even if it is scary to go beyond established conventional thought. Are you with me? I don't even care about the subject. I'm talking just in general. We're actually getting pretty good with the spiritual subject through trial and error. We've covered most bases now and seem to know the pitfalls to some degree. I understand we only have a meeting of the minds when we both see eye to eye. Therefore if you cannot logically agree with me, I respect that. It is perfectly fair. I can agree to disagree.
Angelica, if you were my age and single, I'd marry you, figuratively speaking of course.
The only thing different between us in our thoughts is the spirituality thing. I know you've had spiritual experiences and I have not, that's what sets us apart. You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis. But fundamentally we agree on the same things. As long as we both come from a deterministic root, then I'm extremely happy. It's the predominant belief that people have the ability to choose independently of physical or divine determinents that really upsets me. I don't even care if you believe in God, so long as you don't believe we have free-will.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You do know that the subjective experience is real. You know it happens within the natural existing reality system. While it may be of a different nature than scientific understanding, it is still real.
The subjective reality is real for all intents and purposes. It's perceptually real. But physically it is not real. I feel there is more importance in focusing on physical reality, subjective reality is a setback.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's the same old song, diggin' in the same record bin, hittin' the same bong
Livin' in the same city, on the same sidewalk, with some played out game and some played out talk.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Angelica, if you were my age and single, I'd marry you, figuratively speaking of course.
I'm going to take this as a compliment, Ahnimus. Figuratively speaking, of course. If you hadn't woven the three disclaimers into the one compliment, I might even feel compelled to thank you.
You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis.
This is not so much a compliment. I accept your opinion, though
The only thing different between us in our thoughts is the spirituality thing. I know you've had spiritual experiences and I have not, that's what sets us apart. ... But fundamentally we agree on the same things. As long as we both come from a deterministic root, then I'm extremely happy. It's the predominant belief that people have the ability to choose independently of physical or divine determinents that really upsets me. I don't even care if you believe in God, so long as you don't believe we have free-will.
I am also glad we see eye to eye on many fundamentals. As for the other stuff, we all have our quirks.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm going to take this as a compliment, Ahnimus. Figuratively speaking, of course. If you hadn't woven the three disclaimers into the one compliment, I might even feel compelled to thank you.
This is not so much a compliment. I accept your opinion, though
I am also glad we see eye to eye on many fundamentals. As for the other stuff, we all have our quirks.
Well, I am using the clinical definition of the term pyschosis not the social stigmatization that it carries. If there was another word, I'd use it.
A wide variety of nervous system stressors, both organic and functional, can cause a psychotic reaction. This has led Tsuang and colleagues to argue that "psychosis is the 'fever' of mental illness—a serious but nonspecific indicator".[2][3]
However, most people have unusual and reality-distorting experiences at some point in their life, without being impaired or even distressed by these experiences. For example, many people have experienced hallucinations, and some have even found inspiration or religious revelation in them.[4] As a result, it has been argued that psychosis is not fundamentally separate from normal consciousness, but rather, is on a continuum with normal consciousness.[5] In this view, people who are clinically found to be psychotic, may simply be having particularly intense or distressing experiences (see schizotypy). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The subjective reality is real for all intents and purposes. It's perceptually real. But physically it is not real. I feel there is more importance in focusing on physical reality, subjective reality is a setback.
Point heard. I completely accept what you feel is your priority. I merely point out that you are wired to see it that way, as I'm wired to see otherwise, according to personality typing, anyway. In the end, I see that your priority of focus is 100% valid for you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Well, I am using the clinical definition of the term pyschosis not the social stigmatization that it carries. If there was another word, I'd use it.
A wide variety of nervous system stressors, both organic and functional, can cause a psychotic reaction. This has led Tsuang and colleagues to argue that "psychosis is the 'fever' of mental illness—a serious but nonspecific indicator".[2][3]
However, most people have unusual and reality-distorting experiences at some point in their life, without being impaired or even distressed by these experiences. For example, many people have experienced hallucinations, and some have even found inspiration or religious revelation in them.[4] As a result, it has been argued that psychosis is not fundamentally separate from normal consciousness, but rather, is on a continuum with normal consciousness.[5] In this view, people who are clinically found to be psychotic, may simply be having particularly intense or distressing experiences (see schizotypy). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
I accept that definition. Such phenomena happened on many levels, including a spiritual level as well. (see discussion of holons--parts/wholes/holarchies) I am very fortunate I lost touch with what to others is 'reality'. It happened on numerous occasions. Had it not happened, I would probably be dead today, if not at my own hand, then through other nefarious means. I was extremely ill in many ways when I began having the experiences that saved me. I am blessed now with an ability to see way outside the box of the usual conventions. I love to push those limits to greater and greater perspectives.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I accept that definition. Such phenomena happened on many levels, including a spiritual level as well. (see discussion of holons--parts/wholes/holarchies) I am very fortunate I lost touch with what to others is 'reality'. It happened on numerous occasions. Had it not happened, I would probably be dead today, if not at my own hand, then through other nefarious means. I was extremely ill in many ways when I began having the experiences that saved me. I am blessed now with an ability to see way outside the box of the usual conventions. I love to push those limits to greater and greater perspectives.
Ok, but with psychosis there is no corroborating evidence to support the associated feelings. I would find it difficult to "believe my eyes" if I saw something others did not.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ok, but with psychosis there is no corroborating evidence to support the associated feelings. I would find it difficult to "believe my eyes" if I saw something others did not.
To me my spiritual experiences are like that for normal life I am living in a mediocre to bad video game. Imagine I am allowed to escape that video game and experience real life beyond the game. The difference between living in a bad video game and living real life would be mind-bogglingly stunning. Now imagine that I am sent back to live the video game once again. There is no way that given what my mind has stretched to understand that I can ever go back to convincing myself the video game experience is real, compared to my excursions to real life.
It's very important to understand that in the midst of the many crippling disorders I had a key issue is that I did not trust my own perceptions on anything. Your girlfriend had OCD. I had OCD. A key part of OCD is that the sufferer does not trust their very own basic perceptions in life. I second guessed myself on everything and anything. I trusted my own self the least of anyone I knew, even untrustworthy people who gravitated towards me and abused me. Then I had these spiritual experiences. They forced me to believe in them because I had no choice--they were more real than anything I've known. It was because of these experiences that I was able to turn my life around and get on track with learning to trust myself no matter what people tell me. And that through the early stages, I did this, even when my mind was very crippled, is a true testament to the reality of these experiences for me.
What these experiences brought me to was my real "Self". A basic psychology idea is that we are all out of touch with our authentic Self, believing our ego, as a tiny portion of us, to be who we are. It's nothing stunning to become real, except for the fact that it's not common in the human experience right now. In terms of it happening, we are always evolving towards that unfoldment, if we don't have too many issues blocking us. Unfortunately most of us do, and with the overwhelming stesses of life, very few people have the energy freed to access deeper levels of their nature.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Possibly. I don't honestly know or care much about Buddhism. It's just another doctrine to me, still I'm glad they are determinists.
we all have the potential to become buddhas. even argumentative bastards that think their theory alone is the one. that is the beauty of buddhism. if you lead an unselfish righteous life and give yourself over to something bigger than yourself in order to completely awake from ignorance, then you can attain enlightenment.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Oh come on now????? Didn't you see the Polar Express????? Brought a tear to my eye when I watched it with my niece and nephews.
So what's the solution? Belief in nothing? Because even then we will have to "believe" certain things about people and have faith and belief dictate our lives.
How do you think society would act with belief in just themselves or nothing???????
So we are told that god put it's son here to teach us a lesson and didn't tell the poor boy he was going to be smacked around? A little stretch there I think.
Here is another lesson. We are not told that.
Jesus knew he was going to be "smacked around".
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That's not it at all, I accept the fractal universe as a great theory. It's the one theory that actually makes sense in terms of the structure of the universe. But it's also a rather pointless discussion.
The problem I have with your theories is spinning off some tangent about spirituality which is neither valid physically or logically.
lol
Oh come on now????? Didn't you see the Polar Express????? Brought a tear to my eye when I watched it with my niece and nephews.
So what's the solution? Belief in nothing? Because even then we will have to "believe" certain things about people and have faith and belief dictate our lives.
How do you think society would act with belief in just themselves or nothing???????
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
You do know that the subjective experience is real. You know it happens within the natural existing reality system. While it may be of a different nature than scientific understanding, it is still real.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
you are smart. don't respond to the ill lee gitt er itt.
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Angelica, if you were my age and single, I'd marry you, figuratively speaking of course.
The only thing different between us in our thoughts is the spirituality thing. I know you've had spiritual experiences and I have not, that's what sets us apart. You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis. But fundamentally we agree on the same things. As long as we both come from a deterministic root, then I'm extremely happy. It's the predominant belief that people have the ability to choose independently of physical or divine determinents that really upsets me. I don't even care if you believe in God, so long as you don't believe we have free-will.
The subjective reality is real for all intents and purposes. It's perceptually real. But physically it is not real. I feel there is more importance in focusing on physical reality, subjective reality is a setback.
hey, nobody said you had to read it.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I know, it's just that these people regurgitate and mull over the same shit again and again. It's kind of ...not healthy, in my opinion.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
It's the same old song, diggin' in the same record bin, hittin' the same bong
Livin' in the same city, on the same sidewalk, with some played out game and some played out talk.
- Optimus Rhyme "Ford Vs. Chevy"
http://www.optimusrhyme.com/musicplayer/Optimus_Rhyme_Ford_vs_Chevy.mp3
I am also glad we see eye to eye on many fundamentals. As for the other stuff, we all have our quirks.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Originally Posted by Ahnimus
You attribute those experiences to a metaphysical plane of existence, and I to mild psychosis.
It made me laugh out loud at work, so it did it's job. If I weren't alone at the office, I might have looked stupid.
Well, I am using the clinical definition of the term pyschosis not the social stigmatization that it carries. If there was another word, I'd use it.
A wide variety of nervous system stressors, both organic and functional, can cause a psychotic reaction. This has led Tsuang and colleagues to argue that "psychosis is the 'fever' of mental illness—a serious but nonspecific indicator".[2][3]
However, most people have unusual and reality-distorting experiences at some point in their life, without being impaired or even distressed by these experiences. For example, many people have experienced hallucinations, and some have even found inspiration or religious revelation in them.[4] As a result, it has been argued that psychosis is not fundamentally separate from normal consciousness, but rather, is on a continuum with normal consciousness.[5] In this view, people who are clinically found to be psychotic, may simply be having particularly intense or distressing experiences (see schizotypy).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Ok, but with psychosis there is no corroborating evidence to support the associated feelings. I would find it difficult to "believe my eyes" if I saw something others did not.
To me my spiritual experiences are like that for normal life I am living in a mediocre to bad video game. Imagine I am allowed to escape that video game and experience real life beyond the game. The difference between living in a bad video game and living real life would be mind-bogglingly stunning. Now imagine that I am sent back to live the video game once again. There is no way that given what my mind has stretched to understand that I can ever go back to convincing myself the video game experience is real, compared to my excursions to real life.
It's very important to understand that in the midst of the many crippling disorders I had a key issue is that I did not trust my own perceptions on anything. Your girlfriend had OCD. I had OCD. A key part of OCD is that the sufferer does not trust their very own basic perceptions in life. I second guessed myself on everything and anything. I trusted my own self the least of anyone I knew, even untrustworthy people who gravitated towards me and abused me. Then I had these spiritual experiences. They forced me to believe in them because I had no choice--they were more real than anything I've known. It was because of these experiences that I was able to turn my life around and get on track with learning to trust myself no matter what people tell me. And that through the early stages, I did this, even when my mind was very crippled, is a true testament to the reality of these experiences for me.
What these experiences brought me to was my real "Self". A basic psychology idea is that we are all out of touch with our authentic Self, believing our ego, as a tiny portion of us, to be who we are. It's nothing stunning to become real, except for the fact that it's not common in the human experience right now. In terms of it happening, we are always evolving towards that unfoldment, if we don't have too many issues blocking us. Unfortunately most of us do, and with the overwhelming stesses of life, very few people have the energy freed to access deeper levels of their nature.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Nothing.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
we all have the potential to become buddhas. even argumentative bastards that think their theory alone is the one.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i believe in beer.
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
Beer is my saviour. I worship at the altar of beer!
Beer's as good a thing as any to worship. Although I'll say Bundy!!
Ooo! AND the MOON!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Here is another lesson. We are not told that.
Jesus knew he was going to be "smacked around".
Which leads back to the question all those pages ago. They why cry out on the cross if you knew. For show?
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