World would be worse off without faith...

even flow?

chopitdown wrote:

nah, it's a picture of a frozen "hell" sign...try this one http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~ladelia/images/Hell%20freezing%20over.jpg

if it doesn't work, it just wasn't meant to be

Much better. he he he

That is something I would stop and take a picture of.

Just reading somebody elses comment about people not believing and having a tough life. How do you explain people who go to church and live by the code and then have a stroke or cancer? Must have done something wrong to have the wrath of god stuck to ya. I wonder how many believers were tooting their car horns when I held up traffic one day when I watched a young girl get smoked by a moving car while crossing the street and was one of two whole people to get out of my car for the concern of another human and I don't believe. Oh and I have dreamed and seen places to. Again I don't believe. Kind of shoots that one down.

hippiemom

onelongsong wrote:

and the world really went to hell when athiesm became really popular in the 70's. it took away accountability. when i was young i was taught that i had to answer to God for my actions. thus i tried to be as good as possible. if it wasn't for that accountability; i would have been a hell raiser like my athiest raised friends. 99% of which are dead or in jail. and i was grateful to know someone was watching over me. i've had several instances where i should have died. i've had premonitions about places that turned out to be true.
the universe is too complicated to be an accident. from it's formation to the vast number of life forms.

What nonsense. Your friends obviously had other things going on in their lives beyond the lack of religion. My kids have been raised to question everything they are told, neither of them embrace any type of religious faith ... they are both honor students, never been suspended, no substance abuse, our one encounter with the law was for a curfew violation. Kids don't need to be frightened into behaving themselves.

callen

onelongsong wrote:

and the world really went to hell when athiesm became really popular in the 70's. it took away accountability. when i was young i was taught that i had to answer to God for my actions. thus i tried to be as good as possible. if it wasn't for that accountability; i would have been a hell raiser like my athiest raised friends. 99% of which are dead or in jail. and i was grateful to know someone was watching over me. i've had several instances where i should have died. i've had premonitions about places that turned out to be true.
the universe is too complicated to be an accident. from it's formation to the vast number of life forms.

Knowing how to treat your fellow homosapiens has nothing to do with religion.....I don't believe in god...many of my freinds don't.....and we're a hell of a lot more sympathetic to our fellow human and planet than holy rollers. Isn't it interesting....the repugs...ones that do the lords work...don't want their money going to entitlements..don't want to limit polution, protect our natural forests...etc etc....pattern..don't think so.....I wish people were secure enough to deal with their lives on their own without relying on the crutch. Oh well. Your not special. Your not special. Your not special.

callen

hippiemom wrote:

What nonsense. Your friends obviously had other things going on in their lives beyond the lack of religion. My kids have been raised to question everything they are told, neither of them embrace any type of religious faith ... they are both honor students, never been suspended, no substance abuse, our one encounter with the law was for a curfew violation. Kids don't need to be frightened into behaving themselves.

your their god.

onelongsong

even flow? wrote:

Much better. he he he

That is something I would stop and take a picture of.

Just reading somebody elses comment about people not believing and having a tough life. How do you explain people who go to church and live by the code and then have a stroke or cancer? Must have done something wrong to have the wrath of god stuck to ya. I wonder how many believers were tooting their car horns when I held up traffic one day when I watched a young girl get smoked by a moving car while crossing the street and was one of two whole people to get out of my car for the concern of another human and I don't believe. Oh and I have dreamed and seen places to. Again I don't believe. Kind of shoots that one down.

God doesn't interfere with life on earth. it's a covenent between man and God. people getting sick is mans doing mostly. the other is genetics. we are finding many diseases are predisposed and many will be cured using healthy DNA. you can't blame God for the mess man created.

chopitdown

even flow? wrote:

How do you explain people who go to church and live by the code and then have a stroke or cancer? Must have done something wrong to have the wrath of god stuck to ya.

I guess there's a presupposition that people have that says that bad things can't or shouldn't happen to good people or bad things can't happen to Christians. My mom was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago, her sister just died from cancer 8 months ago (diagnosed 4-5 months prior). They both go to church and try to do the right thing and are Christians. Christians aren't immune from hardship, strife, life, disease. Anyone who says differently is selling something that is not Christianity and is making claims that can't be substantiated through the Bible. But death does come to us all and life isn't nec fair, but i have faith that God is and that's why i dont' like getting into discussions of who is or isn't going to hell, b/c i'm not God... not even close.

onelongsong

callen wrote:

Knowing how to treat your fellow homosapiens has nothing to do with religion.....I don't believe in god...many of my freinds don't.....and we're a hell of a lot more sympathetic to our fellow human and planet than holy rollers. Isn't it interesting....the repugs...ones that do the lords work...don't want their money going to entitlements..don't want to limit polution, protect our natural forests...etc etc....pattern..don't think so.....I wish people were secure enough to deal with their lives on their own without relying on the crutch. Oh well. Your not special. Your not special. Your not special.

i never claimed to be special. but medically; there is no way i can be alive.

even flow?

onelongsong wrote:

God doesn't interfere with life on earth. it's a covenent between man and God. people getting sick is mans doing mostly. the other is genetics. we are finding many diseases are predisposed and many will be cured using healthy DNA. you can't blame God for the mess man created.

After pages of reading about his kid being on Earth. I will have to not agree with your statement that god dosn't interfere with life on Earth. What is the book for then?

chopitdown

callen wrote:

Knowing how to treat your fellow homosapiens has nothing to do with religion.....I don't believe in god...many of my freinds don't.....and we're a hell of a lot more sympathetic to our fellow human and planet than holy rollers.

the sad truth

Here is the brutal fact: 85 percent of the people in the United States call themselves Christians. Now, let’s pause long enough to realize that’s a whole lot of people—247 million people, to be exact.
But how are those 85 percent doing when it comes to accomplishing Jesus’ mission? Here is what research tells us about people in North America who call themselves Christians:
• Those who call themselves Christians are no more likely to give assistance to a homeless person on the street than non-Christians.
• Those who call themselves Chris-tians are no more likely than non-Christians to correct the mistake when a cashier gives them too much change.
• A Christian is just as likely to have an elective abortion as a non-Christian.
• Christians divorce at the same rate as those who consider themselves non-Christians.

In fact, when the Barna Research Group did a survey involving 152 separate items comparing the general population with those who called themselves Christians, they found virtually no difference between the two groups.
http://www.christianstandard.com/articledisplay.asp?id=510

even flow?

chopitdown wrote:

I guess there's a presupposition that people have that says that bad things can't or shouldn't happen to good people or bad things can't happen to Christians. My mom was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago, her sister just died from cancer 8 months ago (diagnosed 4-5 months prior). They both go to church and try to do the right thing and are Christians. Christians aren't immune from hardship, strife, life, disease. Anyone who says differently is selling something that is not Christianity and is making claims that can't be substantiated through the Bible. But death does come to us all and life isn't nec fair, but i have faith that God is and that's why i dont' like getting into discussions of who is or isn't going to hell, b/c i'm not God... not even close.

I was start to buy in. Now you lost me with the "i'm not God" comment. God would have put a capital "I" in that statement.

I hear ya on the disease thing. I just like to toss that one out there to see how it goes down. I just can't buy into the size of the solar system and beyond and this super being (even stronger then Superman) made us the chosen thing of all the matter that is out there. And then to let that power go to our heads to destroy the only planet for those said chosen things to live on. Well dude I get lost in the whole concept.

callen

onelongsong wrote:

i never claimed to be special. but medically; there is no way i can be alive.

thats the whole premise of believing in god.

chopitdown

even flow? wrote:

I was start to buy in. Now you lost me with the "i'm not God" comment. God would have put a capital "I" in that statement.

so close...soooo close

even flow? wrote:

I hear ya on the disease thing. I just like to toss that one out there to see how it goes down. I just can't buy into the size of the solar system and beyond and this super being (even stronger then Superman) made us the chosen thing of all the matter that is out there. And then to let that power go to our heads to destroy the only planet for those said chosen things to live on. Well dude I get lost in the whole concept.

a lot of things "Christians" do boggles my mind as well.

callen

chopitdown wrote:

the sad truth

Here is the brutal fact: 85 percent of the people in the United States call themselves Christians. Now, let’s pause long enough to realize that’s a whole lot of people—247 million people, to be exact.
But how are those 85 percent doing when it comes to accomplishing Jesus’ mission? Here is what research tells us about people in North America who call themselves Christians:
• Those who call themselves Christians are no more likely to give assistance to a homeless person on the street than non-Christians.
• Those who call themselves Chris-tians are no more likely than non-Christians to correct the mistake when a cashier gives them too much change.
• A Christian is just as likely to have an elective abortion as a non-Christian.
• Christians divorce at the same rate as those who consider themselves non-Christians.

In fact, when the Barna Research Group did a survey involving 152 separate items comparing the general population with those who called themselves Christians, they found virtually no difference between the two groups.
http://www.christianstandard.com/articledisplay.asp?id=510

their special and at the end of the day will admit to their sins and be admitted into pearly gates. Sometimes I have to slap myself.....do people really believe in this???

sonicreducer

I thought theodicy was answered in the book of Job

chopitdown

callen wrote:

their special and at the end of the day will admit to their sins and be admitted into pearly gates. Sometimes I have to slap myself.....do people really believe in this???

it's quotes like this why I (check that evenflow?) don't get into saying who's going to heaven and who isn't.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

You didn't disappoint me!

Here we go.....

You're looking for an equivalency based on the action of believing, ignoring the contents of belief. That doesn't work. A belief that food comes from the earth, and can only be grown in the correct earthly conditions is different than a belief that food comes from god and can only be grown via correct worship and sacrifice. Yes, both are beliefs. But one belief is correct, the other incorrect, measured by agricultural success. Furthermore, the former belief is likely based on objective, worldly evidence whereas the other is primarily defined by the lack of objective, worldly evidence. This is an important differentiation that plays into the modus operandi of mystics and spiritual "leaders" throughout world history. The most successful religions have always been those that demand a complete and total lack of demonstrable proof.

The "visions" and "revelations" I have had began in a realm that was beyond logical comprehension or understanding. I had to spend years soulsearching and learning from objective sources in order to put this otherworldly awareness into a reasonable, effective framework. I went about this process reasonably (at times) and part of the process was learning to hone heightened reasoning skills. What characterizes my spiritual understandings from reason is a complete holistic PERFECT revelation-type instantaneous Knowing. I've been shown life principles, including the spiritual portion--with the full knowledge of a stunning intelligence far beyond what any of us can fully grasp in human, earthly terms, at this time. I've experienced the Source of our existence that was LIKE God stepping down from the heavens and sitting with me explaining the nature of what Is. The content is clearly spiritual and can only be expressed through metaphors or symbols.

This is clearly something that can only be understood through direct experience. Metaphors ring hollow and only paint a rudimentary picture. These are experiences of faith, because they cannot be grounded by earthly means. They can be reflected through words, or extensions of outletted behaviour, such as demonstrated through my reasoned understanding of such concepts, or through my healing, or quality of life issues. These outlets in my life, to those who are willing to be open to see, are mere vague reflections of the truths that exist beyond usual perception. When others express perception of such a plane, to any degree, I embrace such perceptions, for I can clearly hear and understand what they are about, regardless of the vehicle of faith being used.

When you talk in terms of "correct" and "incorrect" interpretation, you are using reasoning alone and referring to sensory based perception, alone. I've consistently held to my perception of that which is beyond reasoning, since our earliest debates. I don't see the two views you have illustrated as contradictory. Just like I don't see the concept of an intelligent designer and science as contradictory. (I can't place a western religion that might believe plants ONLY grow due to God and faith, ignoring the practical applications in volved. Therefore, I've amended this part in my mind to be more realistic)

Rand says it best:

"The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man’s power to conceive – a definition that invalidates man’s consciousness and nullifies its concepts of existence… Man’s mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God…. Man’s standard of value, says the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man’s power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith…The purpose of man’s life, say both, is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question. His reward, say the mystics of spirit, will be given to him beyond the grave".

If Ms Rand and yourself are not comfortable with the concept of invalidating reason with faith, I will agree. I see the two functions as completely complementary. When I am unable to put my spiritual and faithful perceptions into reason, I realize I have not yet resolved some of the issues inherent to the principle I perceive. When people gloss over the equal importance of reasoning, dread fallout can and does occur. I personally buy into the theory that 98% of the population is not yet integrated and whole in terms of using their intelligences optimally. We need always recognize room for improvement.

"For centuries, the mystics of spirit had existed by running a protection racket - by making life on earth unbearable, then charging you for consolation and relief, by forbidding all the virtues that make existence possible, then riding on the shoulders of your guilt, by declaring production and joy to be sins, then collecting blackmail from the sinners."

If we are talking mystics like the aforementioned David Koresh, maybe. The true mystics spoke truths that were undeniable, and as those truths spread into the more common consciousness of humanity, they became touched/distorted by our lower animal drives.

But here's the thing: you discarded the judgments of others based on your own empirical and logical reasoning. That's science. You put "faith" above in quotes, but I don't think even that's appropriate. "Faith", quoted or not, is simply inappropriate in the situation you're describing.

I discarded the judgments of others based on having experienced unadulterated TRUTH from what I see as having come directly from an intelligence and pervasive Source of All in the universe--truth I am rendered unable to deny, due to it's perfect truthfulness. Life as we usually live it is like a virtua-video game compared to the truth I experienced. I needed to learn logic and communication in order to be able to logically understand and communicate such truth so I can speak it on a human logic level. It has always been as much beyond human logic as the full ramifications of a sunset is beyond a description of the sunset.

It's surprising to me that they're not using leeches there.

I'm convinced that we'll awaken from the lack inherent in the illness model that we adhere to within western medicine. When we do so, what we consider medical treatment at this point will be seen as akin to using leeches for medical treatment.

I totally disagree. Faith is not a "belief in a different realm of experience". Faith is a belief in a superior mode of experience. No one ever has "faith" in a worse way or in an inferior being. People desire understanding to make things better. Faith is the short-cut they use to reach that understanding, failing to see that the reasoning they should have used was truly their only hope to accomplish what they seek.

Considering how you are wired, I wouldn't expect you to see it any differently. And yet, the deepest connection I have to you, and what I valued about you from day one, is your superior ability to see what does not exist, and to see the perfection of it, and to treat it with honour and respect. You are more "faithful" by my definition than literally most people I've even known.

In the transactional analyis branch of psychology, our intuitive-direct-knowing-without-logic form of understanding is considered very valid and important if we are lacking logical detail. However, we should always seek to use them in harmonic concert in order to work effectively.

Faith and science are two independent variables--I agree with that. And I'll always defend the rights of the faithful to their faith.

Good.

However, faith and reason cannot be "harmonious". The fundamentals of each precludes the other.

Maybe in terms of logically discussing them. You and I have always differed in that you see how something fundamentally does not work; and at the same time, I see how they work perfectly, and paradoxically, beyond logic.

They cannot stand together, as is evidenced by those who attempt to disprove the faith of another based on logic, or those who attempt to disprove the logic of another based on faith. They are completely incompatible concepts and ways of life. Those who attempt to hold onto both will be torn asunder.

I beg to differ. It was by integrating my conflicts and contradictions to the degree that I have that has brought me a sense of wholeness and peace. And it is definitely a work in progress. I have passed the point of majority within, where I am more whole than not, which is also a "quickening" for me. The momentum I experience, at this point, for consolidating my Self and integrating truly has a life of it's own.

(whew...now I remember the draining downside of such long posts...)

even flow?

chopitdown wrote:

it's quotes like this why I (check that evenflow?) don't get into saying who's going to heaven and who isn't.

You have already stated that you are not god. So I will take your word that you won't say who is going to heaven or not. I on the other hand find it hard for somebody to believe in god and then go and commit a sin. Where I can almost see how you can kill somebody and then go to prison and find god. Cause god hangs everywhere and anywhere.

angelica

hippiemom wrote:

I have nothing against either psychiatry or psychology, they are fine pursuits, and as our knowledge increases I expect them to become more and more valuable. But I tend to agree with your brother as far as their scientific validity at present.

Physics is a hard science. You take an object and drop it, and if you have the needed data regarding the weight of the object, the length of the fall, the atmospheric conditions, etc., you can predict exactly when it will hit the ground. Psychiatry can do nothing of the sort, nothing even close, at least not now. There is no "formula" for what to do with, say, an anorexic. Go to a dozen therapists, there will be some degree of difference in the therapy you'll receive from each; some of these therapists may contradict each other in fundamental ways. Obviously, we can't access the same sort of hard data about the human psyche as we can about a falling object. No one knows exactly why a given person becomes anorexic, or why a treatment that works for one does nothing at all for another. We're putting more pieces of the puzzle together all the time, but I think we're still just working on the edge pieces.

I basically agree that it's not an exact science in objective terms. Other qualities are required for particularly psychology or other forms of counselling, and in psychiatry, beyond usual medical aspects. Interpretation is required that depends on the variables in the moment. And this can work effectively, or not, or can work effectively between some individuals, where it would work poorly for others. Within each situation, though, there are many very good maps to work with, as well as very good mapreaders.

chopitdown

even flow? wrote:

I on the other hand find it hard for somebody to believe in god and then go and commit a sin. Where I can almost see how you can kill somebody and then go to prison and find god. Cause god hangs everywhere and anywhere.

just b/c people believe in God doesn't make them perfect either. But I can see your point.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

and the world really went to hell when athiesm became really popular in the 70's. it took away accountability. when i was young i was taught that i had to answer to God for my actions. thus i tried to be as good as possible. if it wasn't for that accountability; i would have been a hell raiser like my athiest raised friends. 99% of which are dead or in jail. and i was grateful to know someone was watching over me. i've had several instances where i should have died. i've had premonitions about places that turned out to be true.
the universe is too complicated to be an accident. from it's formation to the vast number of life forms.

you ever been in jail? i've never met so many devout christians in my life. they all read the bible and talk about jesus and their faith. it's ridiculous.