There have been several subsequent experiments with the same results.
The only controversy behind it is that people do not want to believe it.
Benjamin Libet himself couldn't handle it, and made up some nonsense about how it proves we actually have "free-won't" the ability to veto action potentials with the consciousness. Which is complete speculation and makes absolutely no sense.
i still have a hard time with saying that we dont' have free will when the essence of the task at hand in that study was to follow a command and push a button.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i still have a hard time with saying that we dont' have free will when the essence of the task at hand in that study was to follow a command and push a button.
choose to be a christian??? Would you have been a christian if you were born in Saudi Arabia?
i still have a hard time with saying that we dont' have free will when the essence of the task at hand in that study was to follow a command and push a button.
The subsequent experiments were slighting more complex.
But look, there are dozens of things that alone disprove free-will. This just proves that consciousness really doesn't serve a great deal of purpose in the brain.
The simple fact that free-will violates the laws of thermodynamics proves it doesn't exist. Human predictability proves it doesn't exist. The entire concept of free-will is baseless. It makes absolutely no sense at all. It proves it's self wrong by not making any sense to the real world.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
your constantly being programed. You may change behavior...but when its time to make a decision....bam..its already done. This isn't a bad thing...its just the way that it is.
Christians need security....and this little fable thats been created gives that comfort. AND theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.....I think its great...really...just as long as it doesn't impose on my life......which it does.
there's a difference b/t the delay it takes to do something...ie...the brain initiating movement and the electrical delay (hardwiring) it takes to carry it out. Take playing basketball. I can choose to pass to someone. Once i have decided to pass to someone there is a certain point where it is inevitable...but i can choose to pass it to whomever i want.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
It is proven. Your choices are made 300 ms before you are aware of the choices. Benjamin Libet 1985.
It's not that it isn't proven, generally speaking, it's that you don't believe it.
so you're saying that you can prove to 87% of the worlds population that God doesn't exist and you haven't yet? you've offered solid evidence yet 87% of the world does not agree? if you're smarter than 87% of the world; what are you doing here? why aren't you solving global warming and finding cures for diseases? why don't you post links to this proof for us all to see?
there's a difference b/t the delay it takes to do something...ie...the brain initiating movement and the electrical delay (hardwiring) it takes to carry it out. Take playing basketball. I can choose to pass to someone. Once i have decided to pass to someone there is a certain point where it is inevitable...but i can choose to pass it to whomever i want.
Yea, but the thing is, that entire basketball game is happening about 300 - 500 ms before you are aware of it. That's the length of the delay between sensory inputs, decision making and the conscious realization of it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
there's a difference b/t the delay it takes to do something...ie...the brain initiating movement and the electrical delay (hardwiring) it takes to carry it out. Take playing basketball. I can choose to pass to someone. Once i have decided to pass to someone there is a certain point where it is inevitable...but i can choose to pass it to whomever i want.
to whome you were going to pass it too was already determined....you had no control.....this determination was based on many factors (who's open, who you trust etc) but it was already done..you had no choice or free will as ahnimus puts it.
so you're saying that you can prove to 87% of the worlds population that God doesn't exist and you haven't yet? you've offered solid evidence yet 87% of the world does not agree? if you're smarter than 87% of the world; what are you doing here? why aren't you solving global warming and finding cures for diseases? why don't you post links to this proof for us all to see?
Because, proof is simply the amount of evidence required to convince someone. Deeply religious people cannot be convinced their reality is an illusion.
The evidence is right under your nose if you accept that it's possible and spend some time thinking about it.
Fact is, most of the greatest minds to have lived, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Clarrence Darrow, Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner, etc.. etc.. etc.. already knew that free-will was an illusion. If you go back in history a few thousand years, the concept of free-will didn't exist. It was created out of Judea-Christian religion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, but the thing is, that entire basketball game is happening about 300 - 500 ms before you are aware of it. That's the length of the delay between sensory inputs, decision making and the conscious realization of it.
so would you say we have free will to carry something out but once we begin to carry something out we cease to have free will? If a ball is coming at me and I want to catch it I know that my subconscious is already aware of the position of the ball, approx velocity of the ball b/c of what it sees and processes all subconsiously...now once i say i want to catch it my body will adjust arms, legs, fingers etc... to make that a reality. Many things happen on the subconcsious level and are integrated but i don't have to catch the ball I don't have to run after someone.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i don't know if i would have been a christian if i was born in saudi arabia...since i wasn't born there
it was already chosen for you....which validates you not having any decision making ability...it also makes you wonder...why does god create sooo many of his children to be garanteed to go to hell....they're not innocents..they know about christianity..and their only sin....being born in wrong country.
there's a difference b/t the delay it takes to do something...ie...the brain initiating movement and the electrical delay (hardwiring) it takes to carry it out. Take playing basketball. I can choose to pass to someone. Once i have decided to pass to someone there is a certain point where it is inevitable...but i can choose to pass it to whomever i want.
a few minutes ago i made a choice to walk to the loo to pee. but i didn't start peeing 300 ms before i made the decision. instead i chose to wait to finish my post. then i walked to the loo before i began.
did i break any laws of science or nature?
oh shit; i decided to go horseback riding on sunday with some friends; are the scientists of the world going to come after me for proving them wrong?
to whome you were going to pass it too was already determined....you had no control.....this determination was based on many factors (who's open, who you trust etc) but it was already done..you had no choice or free will as ahnimus puts it.
at what time was it predetermined? At what point is it the point of no return? 200ms?? before I act...to me that doesn't prove or disprove free will. That proves that once i make a decsion and process everything it takes x amount of time to perform that task and there are certain motor programs that can take over in movement.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
it was already chosen for you....which validates you not having any decision making ability...it also makes you wonder...why does god create sooo many of his children to be garanteed to go to hell....they're not innocents..they know about christianity..and their only sin....being born in wrong country.
what about those who are christians who were born in saudi arabia?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
so would you say we have free will to carry something out but once we begin to carry something out we cease to have free will? If a ball is coming at me and I want to catch it I know that my subconscious is already aware of the position of the ball, approx velocity of the ball b/c of what it sees and processes all subconsiously...now once i say i want to catch it my body will adjust arms, legs, fingers etc... to make that a reality. Many things happen on the subconcsious level and are integrated but i don't have to catch the ball I don't have to run after someone.
Actually you do have to.
Think about it like this, think about what you did today. Would you have done anything different if you did it again with the exact same knowledge in the exact same circumstances? No. Think of it like a movie, you can rewind the movie and play it again, but the exact same things always happen. There is no way to do things differently than the way you do them. It's not a choice.
People do not act without motivation. If you did not hunger, thirst, desire sex, need sleep, or anything. If you had no desires, needs, responsibilities or anything. No motivation what so ever. You wouldn't get out of your chair, you wouldn't move. So then the motivation alone is a determining factor, and therefor volition is not free.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
what about those who are christians who were born in saudi arabia?
addressing my post. One did you have a choice what religion you would end up? And if you say yes....would you have been a christian if you were born in Saudi arabia?? And Second...and please address this...why would god create 70% of his children to automatically go to hell...just because they weren't born into a Christian culture?
a few minutes ago i made a choice to walk to the loo to pee. but i didn't start peeing 300 ms before i made the decision. instead i chose to wait to finish my post. then i walked to the loo before i began.
did i break any laws of science or nature?
oh shit; i decided to go horseback riding on sunday with some friends; are the scientists of the world going to come after me for proving them wrong?
No see, the experience of going pee, the feeling, seeing it, everything that constitutes conscious experience is delayed by 300 - 500 ms.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
at what time was it predetermined? At what point is it the point of no return? 200ms?? before I act...to me that doesn't prove or disprove free will. That proves that once i make a decsion and process everything it takes x amount of time to perform that task and there are certain motor programs that can take over in movement.
Well predetermination is something different. But to answer that question it was predetermined infinitely backwards through time.
Many will say for arguments sake that it was determined 4.6 billion years ago during the Big Bang. Which raises the question "What was the first cause?" and I can explain how both the Big Bang theory and that question are flawed.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Because, proof is simply the amount of evidence required to convince someone. Deeply religious people cannot be convinced their reality is an illusion.
The evidence is right under your nose if you accept that it's possible and spend some time thinking about it.
Fact is, most of the greatest minds to have lived, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Clarrence Darrow, Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner, etc.. etc.. etc.. already knew that free-will was an illusion. If you go back in history a few thousand years, the concept of free-will didn't exist. It was created out of Judea-Christian religion.
you're talking to someone that was dead for 20 minutes. legally brain dead. you can give my CT scan to any doctor and they will tell you the cause of death. they will tell you that i cannot be alive because the section of my brain that controls involuntary functions is missing. yet i'm still 4 points short of genius.
your science also says that because of the size and shape of a bees body compared to the size and make up of it's wings; it cannot fly. it completely defies the laws of physics.
addressing my post. One did you have a choice what religion you would end up? And if you say yes....would you have been a christian if you were born in Saudi arabia?? And Second...and please address this...why would god create 70% of his children to automatically go to hell...just because they weren't born into a Christian culture?
People have choices on what they want to believe, which explains why some people go from muslim to christianity, some go from christianity to hindu and some go from christian to atheist. Being born into a christian culture doesn't make you a christian...there are plenty of atheists who are born into a christian culture and yet choose to not be christians.
That being said, point taken on the first question.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
addressing my post. One did you have a choice what religion you would end up? And if you say yes....would you have been a christian if you were born in Saudi arabia?? And Second...and please address this...why would god create 70% of his children to automatically go to hell...just because they weren't born into a Christian culture?
HELLO.... all rivers lead to the sea and all religions lead to God. God knew human nature which shows that all people cannot agree on everything. so different religions all lead to the same end; but are different in nature.
something like why there are several different models of cars. you couldn't give me a ford yet someone else will spend most of their paycheck to own one.
you're talking to someone that was dead for 20 minutes. legally brain dead. you can give my CT scan to any doctor and they will tell you the cause of death. they will tell you that i cannot be alive because the section of my brain that controls involuntary functions is missing. yet i'm still 4 points short of genius.
your science also says that because of the size and shape of a bees body compared to the size and make up of it's wings; it cannot fly. it completely defies the laws of physics.
now tell me another bedtime story.
Both of those things are simply indicative of our lack of knowledge.
It's ridiculous to assume that anything we cannot understand must be metaphysical. That is the oldest mistake in human history.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
HELLO.... all rivers lead to the sea and all religions lead to God. God knew human nature which shows that all people cannot agree on everything. so different religions all lead to the same end; but are different in nature.
something like why there are several different models of cars. you couldn't give me a ford yet someone else will spend most of their paycheck to own one.
Actually neither Hinduism or Buddhism lead to god. But rather they lead to determinism.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
People have choices on what they want to believe, which explains why some people go from muslim to christianity, some go from christianity to hindu and some go from christian to atheist. Being born into a christian culture doesn't make you a christian...there are plenty of atheists who are born into a christian culture and yet choose to not be christians.
That being said, point taken on the first question.
Every second of your life from the prenatal stage of development in which you obtain sensory organs and a brain affect your personality.
Anyone can be born into a Christian culture and choose to become Muslim. But wether or not they make that choice is entirely dependent of their entire life experiences and the circumstances surrounding that choice.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You're in a hightened emotional state, frightened and looking for comfort, so you seek out something "safe" and "productive" to fill your mind with, in order to block out the questions you can't answer and the fear that you can't deal with.
The thing is, for me, the things that frighten me are all here in this physical world. Dying doesn't scare me, but I do worry about what these crazy doctors are going to try and do to me next. If there was a god and he wanted to help, he would have made the morphine work.
why does 12% of the population feel the rest should change for them? we're suppose to have freedom of religion. why do they try to stifle that? it makes no bloody sense to me.
I don't feel that anyone should change for me. Say what you like, do what you like, pray 10 times a day, put religious statues on your property, I don't care. All I ask is that you don't pass laws that affect me if they're based solely on beliefs that I don't share, and if you are engaged in a conversation with me and I say thanks, but that's really not my thing, then give it a rest. That's all.
Anyway, I'm glad that I didn't turn to God. If there is a God then I would have felt like a giant hypocrite asking for anything just because my shitty little life had taken a turn for the worst. Hadn't needed him before so not gonna be asking then.
I think that we/us here on the board talk about it to help pass the day.
That's it for me! It's far from the dumbest thing I've ever discussed on a message board to pass a boring work day
as for mom; i want to do something to help. i don't want to feel helpless. this is my way of knowing i did something for her. i dedicated some of my time to send her well wishes.
Thank you I'm grateful for everyone who has wished me well, regardless of how they chose to do it.
And I still think it's kind of you to pray for mom. I just hope that it's not an unwelcome burden to her.
Not at all. I try to welcome all wishes in the spirit in which they were intended. I've got people of several faiths sending me their good thoughts in their own way. It's interesting that you mention it though .... the pagans are the only ones who ask first.
It looks like determinism is your power greater than yourself. You have a very strong faith, Ahnimus. One might say it's unshakeable.
Faith
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Hinduism and Buddhism are both faiths, since they do not rely on physical evidence, but philosophical reasoning.
My understanding of reality is solely based on factual data. I do not have any faith.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Faith is a wonderful thing that can most certainly help people on an individual basis.
It's the jackasses that use it for their own agenda and to make $ that herd people into groups and alienate others is what has ruined faith in the world.
Comments
i still have a hard time with saying that we dont' have free will when the essence of the task at hand in that study was to follow a command and push a button.
The subsequent experiments were slighting more complex.
But look, there are dozens of things that alone disprove free-will. This just proves that consciousness really doesn't serve a great deal of purpose in the brain.
The simple fact that free-will violates the laws of thermodynamics proves it doesn't exist. Human predictability proves it doesn't exist. The entire concept of free-will is baseless. It makes absolutely no sense at all. It proves it's self wrong by not making any sense to the real world.
there's a difference b/t the delay it takes to do something...ie...the brain initiating movement and the electrical delay (hardwiring) it takes to carry it out. Take playing basketball. I can choose to pass to someone. Once i have decided to pass to someone there is a certain point where it is inevitable...but i can choose to pass it to whomever i want.
i don't know if i would have been a christian if i was born in saudi arabia...since i wasn't born there
so you're saying that you can prove to 87% of the worlds population that God doesn't exist and you haven't yet? you've offered solid evidence yet 87% of the world does not agree? if you're smarter than 87% of the world; what are you doing here? why aren't you solving global warming and finding cures for diseases? why don't you post links to this proof for us all to see?
Yea, but the thing is, that entire basketball game is happening about 300 - 500 ms before you are aware of it. That's the length of the delay between sensory inputs, decision making and the conscious realization of it.
to whome you were going to pass it too was already determined....you had no control.....this determination was based on many factors (who's open, who you trust etc) but it was already done..you had no choice or free will as ahnimus puts it.
Because, proof is simply the amount of evidence required to convince someone. Deeply religious people cannot be convinced their reality is an illusion.
The evidence is right under your nose if you accept that it's possible and spend some time thinking about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Science_and_free_will
Fact is, most of the greatest minds to have lived, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Clarrence Darrow, Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner, etc.. etc.. etc.. already knew that free-will was an illusion. If you go back in history a few thousand years, the concept of free-will didn't exist. It was created out of Judea-Christian religion.
so would you say we have free will to carry something out but once we begin to carry something out we cease to have free will? If a ball is coming at me and I want to catch it I know that my subconscious is already aware of the position of the ball, approx velocity of the ball b/c of what it sees and processes all subconsiously...now once i say i want to catch it my body will adjust arms, legs, fingers etc... to make that a reality. Many things happen on the subconcsious level and are integrated but i don't have to catch the ball I don't have to run after someone.
a few minutes ago i made a choice to walk to the loo to pee. but i didn't start peeing 300 ms before i made the decision. instead i chose to wait to finish my post. then i walked to the loo before i began.
did i break any laws of science or nature?
oh shit; i decided to go horseback riding on sunday with some friends; are the scientists of the world going to come after me for proving them wrong?
at what time was it predetermined? At what point is it the point of no return? 200ms?? before I act...to me that doesn't prove or disprove free will. That proves that once i make a decsion and process everything it takes x amount of time to perform that task and there are certain motor programs that can take over in movement.
Actually you do have to.
Think about it like this, think about what you did today. Would you have done anything different if you did it again with the exact same knowledge in the exact same circumstances? No. Think of it like a movie, you can rewind the movie and play it again, but the exact same things always happen. There is no way to do things differently than the way you do them. It's not a choice.
People do not act without motivation. If you did not hunger, thirst, desire sex, need sleep, or anything. If you had no desires, needs, responsibilities or anything. No motivation what so ever. You wouldn't get out of your chair, you wouldn't move. So then the motivation alone is a determining factor, and therefor volition is not free.
addressing my post. One did you have a choice what religion you would end up? And if you say yes....would you have been a christian if you were born in Saudi arabia?? And Second...and please address this...why would god create 70% of his children to automatically go to hell...just because they weren't born into a Christian culture?
No see, the experience of going pee, the feeling, seeing it, everything that constitutes conscious experience is delayed by 300 - 500 ms.
Well predetermination is something different. But to answer that question it was predetermined infinitely backwards through time.
Many will say for arguments sake that it was determined 4.6 billion years ago during the Big Bang. Which raises the question "What was the first cause?" and I can explain how both the Big Bang theory and that question are flawed.
you're talking to someone that was dead for 20 minutes. legally brain dead. you can give my CT scan to any doctor and they will tell you the cause of death. they will tell you that i cannot be alive because the section of my brain that controls involuntary functions is missing. yet i'm still 4 points short of genius.
your science also says that because of the size and shape of a bees body compared to the size and make up of it's wings; it cannot fly. it completely defies the laws of physics.
now tell me another bedtime story.
People have choices on what they want to believe, which explains why some people go from muslim to christianity, some go from christianity to hindu and some go from christian to atheist. Being born into a christian culture doesn't make you a christian...there are plenty of atheists who are born into a christian culture and yet choose to not be christians.
That being said, point taken on the first question.
HELLO.... all rivers lead to the sea and all religions lead to God. God knew human nature which shows that all people cannot agree on everything. so different religions all lead to the same end; but are different in nature.
something like why there are several different models of cars. you couldn't give me a ford yet someone else will spend most of their paycheck to own one.
Both of those things are simply indicative of our lack of knowledge.
It's ridiculous to assume that anything we cannot understand must be metaphysical. That is the oldest mistake in human history.
Actually neither Hinduism or Buddhism lead to god. But rather they lead to determinism.
I believe I should go to bed!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Every second of your life from the prenatal stage of development in which you obtain sensory organs and a brain affect your personality.
Anyone can be born into a Christian culture and choose to become Muslim. But wether or not they make that choice is entirely dependent of their entire life experiences and the circumstances surrounding that choice.
I don't feel that anyone should change for me. Say what you like, do what you like, pray 10 times a day, put religious statues on your property, I don't care. All I ask is that you don't pass laws that affect me if they're based solely on beliefs that I don't share, and if you are engaged in a conversation with me and I say thanks, but that's really not my thing, then give it a rest. That's all.
I agree, that's just weak.
That's it for me! It's far from the dumbest thing I've ever discussed on a message board to pass a boring work day
Thank you
Not at all. I try to welcome all wishes in the spirit in which they were intended. I've got people of several faiths sending me their good thoughts in their own way. It's interesting that you mention it though .... the pagans are the only ones who ask first.
I completely agree with this.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Faith
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Hinduism and Buddhism are both faiths, since they do not rely on physical evidence, but philosophical reasoning.
My understanding of reality is solely based on factual data. I do not have any faith.
that was a quote from hindu scriptures. it was told to Jesus when he traveled to india to teach.
It's the jackasses that use it for their own agenda and to make $ that herd people into groups and alienate others is what has ruined faith in the world.