Here! Here!! Bravo!!! Round of applause to you deadnote.
See, I don't understand this "Faith"
The blind belief in something that has no evidence.
How can that rule?
Oh yeah, it's awesome to just believe in every myth under the sun, which ultimately results in a complete contradiction of world view.
It's absolutely absurd. That's not reasoned debate. That's one person spitting out a bunch of unthought nonsense and another praising them for it because they just like the social atmosphere.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The blind belief in something that has no evidence.
How can that rule?
Oh yeah, it's awesome to just believe in every myth under the sun, which ultimately results in a complete contradiction of world view.
It's absolutely absurd. That's not reasoned debate. That's one person spitting out a bunch of unthought nonsense and another praising them for it because they just like the social atmosphere.
Ah Ryan love, was just about to pm you!
Anyway, here is as good as any.
So I understand what you are saying about faith and how you view it. But I don't appear to share that view, from what I've been able to gather from reading all that you have said.
I understand that must frustrate you, but that is how it is.
I don't believe in "every myth under the sun" however I cannot deny that I have faith. Now it may be that my faith is exactly a chemical and brain function as you have described, but I do not see it as clinically as you have described it to me. As I haven't seen or heard anything yet that has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, explained that faith does not exist, or adequitely (?) explained that it doesn't. I have to accept that I have it, and that it exists for me, because I feel it. Whether I can adequitely quantify it for you or myself or not. And I don't see it as a blind belief either. When either side of the argument comes up with an absolute definitive explanation that I can accept then I'm there believe me! Until then I won't deny that I have faith.
Hope that makes sense.
Anyway, like everybody else it would appear, I'm off shopping.
Too rah!! You have a good day!
Ah Ryan love, was just about to pm you!
Anyway, here is as good as any.
So I understand what you are saying about faith and how you view it. But I don't appear to share that view, from what I've been able to gather from reading all that you have said.
I understand that must frustrate you, but that is how it is.
I don't believe in "every myth under the sun" however I cannot deny that I have faith. Now it may be that my faith is exactly a chemical and brain function as you have described, but I do not see it as clinically as you have described it to me. As I haven't seen or heard anything yet that has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, explained that faith does not exist, or adequitely (?) explained that it doesn't. I have to accept that I have it, and that it exists for me, because I feel it. Whether I can adequitely quantify it for you or myself or not. And I don't see it as a blind belief either. When either side of the argument comes up with an absolute definitive explanation that I can accept then I'm there believe me! Until then I won't deny that I have faith.
Hope that makes sense.
Anyway, like everybody else it would appear, I'm off shopping.
Too rah!! You have a good day!
I'm not proving that faith does not exist, I think faith is a completely absurd thing to do. I'm arguing against free-will, of course you 'feel' like you have it, that's the nature of the illusion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
For the last million years some sort of faith was the vehicle that taught morals, and for every one sucide bomber or whack job leader there have been millions of good people because of it.
That isn't really the case now and probably won't be in the future.
I'm not proving that faith does not exist, I think faith is a completely absurd thing to do. I'm arguing against free-will, of course you 'feel' like you have it, that's the nature of the illusion.
having faith in something which can not be proven to exist is absurd. i choose to use my free will to disbelieve. don't you ryan?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
having faith in something which can not be proven to exist is absurd. i choose to use my free will to disbelieve. don't you ryan?
No, I used my rational deliberation.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
but isn't choosing to use such deliberation an act of free will?
Nope it's an innate act, it's something that is hard-wired into humans. From the time our brains and sensory organs begin to grow, we begin to rationally deliberate. The process of synatopgenesis I mentioned earlier shows intelligent brain development, obviously with the absence of free-will.
Basically, no one can quantify free-will, explain how they got, where they got it from or what it does. So how can it exist?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
hmm...... so in other words some people who have a religion are only helping others and not being vilolent because they were told to do so by bible or god...hmmm....
i don't have a religion, yet i do help and try to be nice to everyone, just because i want to do the right thing and leave in peace
I think that is awesome that you do things to help people and live in peace.
My point again is not necessarily about religion although I reference religion.
I am trying not to be specific with religion but I am using it as an example.
Yes horrible atrocities throughout time have been conducted with religion and organized belief systems.
I also think it is funny when I made the statement how many people interpreted it as only a belief in a type of organized religion, although I did say I think that religion has done good things, at least for people I know.
Again, belief in something greater than ourselves does not have to be about a diety or god..it could be a Bob Dylan song or music in general. Still its a belief that there is good out in the world, there is love out in the world, there is compassion out in the world.
I think its beautiful because you believe in kindness to people, to me that is a belief or faith in something greater than yourself!
I feel like I am repeating myself but that's ok, I am glad the discussion has gone on so long
"She knows there is no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
Nope it's an innate act, it's something that is hard-wired into humans. From the time our brains and sensory organs begin to grow, we begin to rationally deliberate. The process of synatopgenesis I mentioned earlier shows intelligent brain development, obviously with the absence of free-will.
Basically, no one can quantify free-will, explain how they got, where they got it from or what it does. So how can it exist?
so what you're saying ryan is the humans despite our intelligence are automatons who have no control over lives. that no matter what actions we take or words we say, where we end up is beyond our own influence?
i'd be interested to find out if ever you found religion would you be a calvinist.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
so what you're saying ryan is the humans despite our intelligence are automatons who have no control over lives. that no matter what actions we take or words we say, where we end up is beyond our own influence?
i'd be interested to find out if ever you found religion would you be a calvinist.
Why calvinism?
I really hate to think about it, but I'm inclined to agree with Ahnimus on this one. Based on my understanding of physics and chemistry there can't be any other possibility. I think its an absolutely horrifying idea though, so just to comfort myself I cling to the notion that I might be wrong. I haven't tried to research it too thoroughly just in case I prove myself right.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
I really hate to think about it, but I'm inclined to agree with Ahnimus on this one. Based on my understanding of physics and chemistry there can't be any other possibility. I think its an absolutely horrifying idea though, so just to comfort myself I cling to the notion that I might be wrong. I haven't tried to research it too thoroughly just in case I prove myself right.
calvinists believe that God has already chosen those to be saved and nothing the others do will change that they will not be saved. even if you lead a righteous life you may be condemned. it's also called extreme predestination.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I really hate to think about it, but I'm inclined to agree with Ahnimus on this one. Based on my understanding of physics and chemistry there can't be any other possibility. I think its an absolutely horrifying idea though, so just to comfort myself I cling to the notion that I might be wrong. I haven't tried to research it too thoroughly just in case I prove myself right.
That is exactly it. You hit the nail on the head. I looked too far into it. It's absolutely true. From every angle, biology, chemistry, physics, psychology, cognitive sciences, they are all deterministic. I can't escape the idea. I've never found anything as shockingly obvious and profound. Like people find religion to be compelling and maybe shockingly obvious. I never did. I never bought Karma, or Fate. I never even cared. I'm just talking about the facts. But it's hard because a lot of people don't understand the concept. You may understand the concept, and even believe it, but in day-to-day life, it's not really an issue. It only becomes an issue of morality. I have nothing to hide about my past, I'm sure many people here know stories about me. It's water under the bridge. It's just a bunch of experience that may or may not be true, but it's how I remember it. That's not what I mean when I say morality. I'm referring to how we as a society handle issues of morality. Maybe all convicts should get fMRI scans to see if something is wrong with their brain. If not, then it's behavioral. It can be helped. I guess that a soceity that simply recognizes the truth about themselves will be more understanding of each other. It's not a verse out of an ancient book. It has a lot more backing it up. So it's not about me, it's about the guy that hit my sister with a car, the guy that hit me with his truck, the police officer that killed my grandparents, the kids that beat me up in highschool, it's about everyone.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
so what you're saying ryan is the humans despite our intelligence are automatons who have no control over lives. that no matter what actions we take or words we say, where we end up is beyond our own influence?
i'd be interested to find out if ever you found religion would you be a calvinist.
No that's not it at all. See, you interact with your environment and adapt to it as any kind of organism. So what you are is a product of your environment. With our species our environment includes a social aspect. We developed more advanced brain regions that allow for some pretty unusual things. It's believed, not confirmed, that consciousness is located in the frontal cortex, not all neural correlates have been observed though. The neural correlate for vision is in the frontal lobe. But anyway, you still make decisions based on your environment and what you experience. You are still you, you have to make decisions all the time, but only recognize what those decisions are based on. Because it's how you look at other people's decisions. People attribute incorrectly all the time. I was discussing with another determinist I work with, why a certain coworker might behave obnoxiously in their 30s and we came up with some theories. The obnoxious coworker would have just called us assholes. See, we weren't attributing his behavior to his free-will, we attributed to his experience. Ultimately though, you have no choice, but you need to make choices. I know it sounds messed up. The choices are going to come to you anyway, you will have to make choices, but whatever you choose ultimately is not your choice. Anyway, I beat this horse dead a long time ago. I don't know why I'm still trying to explain it. It's just an issue of morality, but it requires a massive change in world perspective that seems kind of unusual, it's certainly nowhere near the norm.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
No that's not it at all. See, you interact with your environment and adapt to it as any kind of organism. So what you are is a product of your environment. With our species our environment includes a social aspect. We developed more advanced brain regions that allow for some pretty unusual things. It's believed, not confirmed, that consciousness is located in the frontal cortex, not all neural correlates have been observed though. The neural correlate for vision is in the frontal lobe. But anyway, you still make decisions based on your environment and what you experience. You are still you, you have to make decisions all the time, but only recognize what those decisions are based on. Because it's how you look at other people's decisions. People attribute incorrectly all the time. I was discussing with another determinist I work with, why a certain coworker might behave obnoxiously in their 30s and we came up with some theories. The obnoxious coworker would have just called us assholes. See, we weren't attributing his behavior to his free-will, we attributed to his experience. Ultimately though, you have no choice, but you need to make choices. I know it sounds messed up. The choices are going to come to you anyway, you will have to make choices, but whatever you choose ultimately is not your choice. Anyway, I beat this horse dead a long time ago. I don't know why I'm still trying to explain it. It's just an issue of morality, but it requires a massive change in world perspective that seems kind of unusual, it's certainly nowhere near the norm.
you're explaining it because you saw i hadn't quite grasped what you were saying.
so we make choices throughout our lives but in the end it those choices are irrelevant?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
you're explaining it because you saw i hadn't quite grasped what you were saying.
so we make choices throughout our lives but in the end it those choices are irrelevant?
No the choices aren't irrelevant. They make all the difference in our experience. We control our experience of our environment through our perception which controls our decision making. It's all connected, it's one system. We are our brains and our bodies. I am my brain and my body. It is subject to the laws of physics, which are deterministic. Forget about fate, you don't have to be a predeterminist, that's somewhere in the future maybe. It's mostly about knowing that a brain makes the decisions not the consciousness. I think consciousness is an emergent property. Organisms need to feel pain, so they have an experience of it, humans need to see, hear, smell, feel pain, etc... so they have experiences of all of that, combined it's a consciousness, but that is all, a place where our brains experience. Ultimately what it means is that people can only ever make one choice. They can think about it forever and the longer they think about it they may make a better choice. Ultimately the choice to think longer about it was made by the brain as well. It's good to make choices, they are essential, it's just good to make good choices and realize why people might make bad choices. Our brains need to know that more knowledge makes better choices. Personality and emotion alone aren't good bases for decision making in many cases.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm not proving that faith does not exist, I think faith is a completely absurd thing to do. I'm arguing against free-will, of course you 'feel' like you have it, that's the nature of the illusion.
Ok. Well I hope that you'll accept me as a friend anyway. Regardless of your thoughts on my "illusionary beliefs". As I accept you and yours.
I think that is awesome that you do things to help people and live in peace.
My point again is not necessarily about religion although I reference religion.
I am trying not to be specific with religion but I am using it as an example.
Yes horrible atrocities throughout time have been conducted with religion and organized belief systems.
I also think it is funny when I made the statement how many people interpreted it as only a belief in a type of organized religion, although I did say I think that religion has done good things, at least for people I know.
Again, belief in something greater than ourselves does not have to be about a diety or god..it could be a Bob Dylan song or music in general. Still its a belief that there is good out in the world, there is love out in the world, there is compassion out in the world.
I think its beautiful because you believe in kindness to people, to me that is a belief or faith in something greater than yourself!
I feel like I am repeating myself but that's ok, I am glad the discussion has gone on so long
And what an excellent discussion it has been GS.
And I agree with everything you've said here. I think that many of us believe and have faith in others. And try to live good, kind, productive and helpful lives. And to go forward with love and compassion and humanity.
Peace, love and acceptance. Those are the things I try to have faith in.
I agree with many of the points I have read here.. as for faith, I believe it to be a powerful tool in life.. but what has created my mode of living was when I heard this saying.. it has kept me in line the last 20 years..
YOU are responsible for your thoughts, actions, and imposistions.. and only you carry any consequences from your decisions though your choice effects others.
oh and rock the fuck on to the one who posted the lyrics to Science!! LOVE that song!!.
And I agree with everything you've said here. I think that many of us believe and have faith in others. And try to live good, kind, productive and helpful lives. And to go forward with love and compassion and humanity.
Peace, love and acceptance. Those are the things I try to have faith in.
Thanks Jeanie. Your positive energy in your posts is great, even if sometimes it's Chardonnay induced.
"She knows there is no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
Then explain how it is far beyond? The difference in view point is a result of difference in knowledge. Explain to me what you know that causes you to believe it's "far beyond".
We have been using the example of love. When the subject of love comes up, you say that love is this and that chemical. When a person experiences this or that chemical, they are also experiencing actions. Love is extended beyond the chemical into acts, like in a play--stories. This is what I referred to earlier about the images our brain chemicals project into the world. We create these little scenarios around us. We act them out with our physical bodies. These plays that we act out may entail sex, which can lead to a pregnancy. The actual experience and actions of love are far beyond a chemical. They can result in the creation of a human life! That is beyond your chemicals--it becomes about affecting the chemicals of another person which are far beyond you. And by such a connections you can actually play a part in creating new chemicals in a new individual, all within the framework of love. The chemicals you speak of are intricately interwoven with the meaingful experiences and actions that I refer to. These 'plays' we act out in love, are an example of what I refer to as the illusions we play out in the real world. A girl might kiss you, and that is a physically observable objective and neutral action. And yet, your response naturally ascribes meaning to that kiss. Was it good or bad? Even if part of you is thinking about your brain chemicals during the kiss ( :rolleyes: ), other parts of your body may respond in other ways. Those responses may trigger other chemicals. These "plays" and the scripts that our brain programming projects into the world is, IMHO, far beyond being just the chemical. It's about complex interactions of chemicals, organisms, forces, all playing out in unendingly unique patterns.
In our western reductionist view, we want to understand what is potent about an apple. So we take the apple apart and come up with some vitamins and minerals and put them in a jar and sell them. We're so smart we think. And we overlook the fact that it's the apple itself, with all the parts working in perfect interaction that truly makes the potency of the apple. When we reduce at the expense of understanding, we lose understanding. We ignore things, making them unconscious even though in the objective natural world they are right before our eyes. We've created negative hallucinations by glossing over them. I've heard a few people in this thread say we are our brain or our chemicals. I see we are our skin, our hearts, organs, cells, our actions, our heartfelt meaning that we put into our world and on and on. We have chemical correlates for who we are, but to confuse that with being who we are is profoundly reductionist to me. At the same time, if someone talks about love, and you say that the brain chemistry nature of love is: such and such, that is acceptable, because you are not attempting to collapse all the other important variables, but rather you have defined a specific context.
When we take the actions of love and seek to understand them, we have naturally come to brain chemicals. When a scientist then tells me that those chemicals ARE love, I see that they have forgotten the reality they had initially hoped to understand.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I don't intend to steal away the potency of the experience of love. Certainly the chemicals of love and the experience of love are two different things. The experience is however an emergent property of the chemicals. Understanding how the chemicals behave we can better tune ourselves in and out of love, we can capitalize on the experience of love with a greater understanding of all aspects of it. Experience will always seem greater to us than the parts that make it up, because our consciousness is experience. I'm not trying to take anything away, I just don't want it to go "far beyond".
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't intend to steal away the potency of the experience of love. Certainly the chemicals of love and the experience of love are two different things. The experience is however an emergent property of the chemicals. Understanding how the chemicals behave we can better tune ourselves in and out of love, we can capitalize on the experience of love with a greater understanding of all aspects of it. Experience will always seem greater to us than the parts that make it up, because our consciousness is experience. I'm not trying to take anything away, I just don't want it to go "far beyond".
We have been using the example of love. When the subject of love comes up, you say that love is this and that chemical. When a person experiences this or that chemical, they are also experiencing actions. Love is extended beyond the chemical into acts, like in a play--stories. This is what I referred to earlier about the images our brain chemicals project into the world. We create these little scenarios around us. We act them out with our physical bodies. These plays that we act out may entail sex, which can lead to a pregnancy. The actual experience and actions of love are far beyond a chemical. They can result in the creation of a human life! That is beyond your chemicals--it becomes about affecting the chemicals of another person which are far beyond you. And by such a connections you can actually play a part in creating new chemicals in a new individual, all within the framework of love. The chemicals you speak of are intricately interwoven with the meaingful experiences and actions that I refer to. These 'plays' we act out in love, are an example of what I refer to as the illusions we play out in the real world. A girl might kiss you, and that is a physically observable objective and neutral action. And yet, your response naturally ascribes meaning to that kiss. Was it good or bad? Even if part of you is thinking about your brain chemicals during the kiss ( :rolleyes: ), other parts of your body may respond in other ways. Those responses may trigger other chemicals. These "plays" and the scripts that our brain programming projects into the world is, IMHO, far beyond being just the chemical. It's about complex interactions of chemicals, organisms, forces, all playing out in unendingly unique patterns.
In our western reductionist view, we want to understand what is potent about an apple. So we take the apple apart and come up with some vitamins and minerals and put them in a jar and sell them. We're so smart we think. And we overlook the fact that it's the apple itself, with all the parts working in perfect interaction that truly makes the potency of the apple. When we reduce at the expense of understanding, we lose understanding. We ignore things, making them unconscious even though in the objective natural world they are right before our eyes. We've created negative hallucinations by glossing over them. I've heard a few people in this thread say we are our brain or our chemicals. I see we are our skin, our hearts, organs, cells, our actions, our heartfelt meaning that we put into our world and on and on. We have chemical correlates for who we are, but to confuse that with being who we are is profoundly reductionist to me. At the same time, if someone talks about love, and you say that the brain chemistry nature of love is: such and such, that is acceptable, because you are not attempting to collapse all the other important variables, but rather you have defined a specific context.
When we take the actions of love and seek to understand them, we have naturally come to brain chemicals. When a scientist then tells me that those chemicals ARE love, I see that they have forgotten the reality they had initially hoped to understand.
I think if Ahnimus were to kiss me and then see me puke, he may understand this point of view more clearly.
I don't intend to steal away the potency of the experience of love. Certainly the chemicals of love and the experience of love are two different things. The experience is however an emergent property of the chemicals. Understanding how the chemicals behave we can better tune ourselves in and out of love, we can capitalize on the experience of love with a greater understanding of all aspects of it. Experience will always seem greater to us than the parts that make it up, because our consciousness is experience. I'm not trying to take anything away, I just don't want it to go "far beyond".
it seems you don't know what love is. your posts seem to centre on the need to reproduce. this is chemical. you cannot explain unconditional love or devotion to one person. if in fact the emotion is chemical; then people would act as animals in that when the recipient of that love is away; the chemical reaction would take place with another. this is what makes humans different.
the urge for sex is chemical; love is something completely different and does transend far beyond scientific explaination.
Thanks Jeanie. Your positive energy in your posts is great, even if sometimes it's Chardonnay induced.
Sheesh!! ONE DAY!! ONE DAY I drink chardonnay and suddenly I'm a lush? And at least I confessed my sins!! hehe!!
My philosophy? Be happy wherever you can, because the alternative is not fun. Find happiness, joy and love in small things as well as big. And if you have to find an emotional guideline to take you through life then I choose the positive ones. AND if some days that proves a little difficult, then a glass or four or chardy is not the worst thing you can do with an afternoon occassionally!!
Find happiness, joy and love in small things as well as big... a glass or four or chardy is not the worst thing you can do with an afternoon occassionally!!
I couldn't agree with you more. Sometimes in the smallest, simplest things one finds the greatest strength, happiness, and positivity. Outlook/perception is major!!!
For me it's a glass or two of whiskey.
"She knows there is no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
I couldn't agree with you more. Sometimes in the smallest, simplest things one finds the greatest strength, happiness, and positivity. Outlook/perception is major!!!
For me it's a glass or two of whiskey.
Yes, perception!! That's it exactly!! I have to say it's been interesting reading all the different points of view here on the thread in that even those on different sides of the debate seem to be coming to the discussion with passion for their own point of view. And my perception of that would be that Passion = Love, which is all positive emotions. So perhaps some folk aren't as far apart as they would like to think!
Well gs we'll never fight over the last drink! But that's cool, I raise my glass to you anyway! Well not today, of course, but next time I'm imbibing!
Comments
Here! Here!! Bravo!!! Round of applause to you deadnote.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
See, I don't understand this "Faith"
The blind belief in something that has no evidence.
How can that rule?
Oh yeah, it's awesome to just believe in every myth under the sun, which ultimately results in a complete contradiction of world view.
It's absolutely absurd. That's not reasoned debate. That's one person spitting out a bunch of unthought nonsense and another praising them for it because they just like the social atmosphere.
Ah Ryan love, was just about to pm you!
Anyway, here is as good as any.
So I understand what you are saying about faith and how you view it. But I don't appear to share that view, from what I've been able to gather from reading all that you have said.
I understand that must frustrate you, but that is how it is.
I don't believe in "every myth under the sun" however I cannot deny that I have faith. Now it may be that my faith is exactly a chemical and brain function as you have described, but I do not see it as clinically as you have described it to me. As I haven't seen or heard anything yet that has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, explained that faith does not exist, or adequitely (?) explained that it doesn't. I have to accept that I have it, and that it exists for me, because I feel it. Whether I can adequitely quantify it for you or myself or not. And I don't see it as a blind belief either. When either side of the argument comes up with an absolute definitive explanation that I can accept then I'm there believe me! Until then I won't deny that I have faith.
Hope that makes sense.
Anyway, like everybody else it would appear, I'm off shopping.
Too rah!! You have a good day!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'm not proving that faith does not exist, I think faith is a completely absurd thing to do. I'm arguing against free-will, of course you 'feel' like you have it, that's the nature of the illusion.
For the last million years some sort of faith was the vehicle that taught morals, and for every one sucide bomber or whack job leader there have been millions of good people because of it.
That isn't really the case now and probably won't be in the future.
having faith in something which can not be proven to exist is absurd. i choose to use my free will to disbelieve. don't you ryan?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
No, I used my rational deliberation.
but isn't choosing to use such deliberation an act of free will?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Nope it's an innate act, it's something that is hard-wired into humans. From the time our brains and sensory organs begin to grow, we begin to rationally deliberate. The process of synatopgenesis I mentioned earlier shows intelligent brain development, obviously with the absence of free-will.
Basically, no one can quantify free-will, explain how they got, where they got it from or what it does. So how can it exist?
I think that is awesome that you do things to help people and live in peace.
My point again is not necessarily about religion although I reference religion.
I am trying not to be specific with religion but I am using it as an example.
Yes horrible atrocities throughout time have been conducted with religion and organized belief systems.
I also think it is funny when I made the statement how many people interpreted it as only a belief in a type of organized religion, although I did say I think that religion has done good things, at least for people I know.
Again, belief in something greater than ourselves does not have to be about a diety or god..it could be a Bob Dylan song or music in general. Still its a belief that there is good out in the world, there is love out in the world, there is compassion out in the world.
I think its beautiful because you believe in kindness to people, to me that is a belief or faith in something greater than yourself!
I feel like I am repeating myself but that's ok, I am glad the discussion has gone on so long
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
so what you're saying ryan is the humans despite our intelligence are automatons who have no control over lives. that no matter what actions we take or words we say, where we end up is beyond our own influence?
i'd be interested to find out if ever you found religion would you be a calvinist.
take a good look
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lie beside me
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Why calvinism?
I really hate to think about it, but I'm inclined to agree with Ahnimus on this one. Based on my understanding of physics and chemistry there can't be any other possibility. I think its an absolutely horrifying idea though, so just to comfort myself I cling to the notion that I might be wrong. I haven't tried to research it too thoroughly just in case I prove myself right.
-C Addison
calvinists believe that God has already chosen those to be saved and nothing the others do will change that they will not be saved. even if you lead a righteous life you may be condemned. it's also called extreme predestination.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That is exactly it. You hit the nail on the head. I looked too far into it. It's absolutely true. From every angle, biology, chemistry, physics, psychology, cognitive sciences, they are all deterministic. I can't escape the idea. I've never found anything as shockingly obvious and profound. Like people find religion to be compelling and maybe shockingly obvious. I never did. I never bought Karma, or Fate. I never even cared. I'm just talking about the facts. But it's hard because a lot of people don't understand the concept. You may understand the concept, and even believe it, but in day-to-day life, it's not really an issue. It only becomes an issue of morality. I have nothing to hide about my past, I'm sure many people here know stories about me. It's water under the bridge. It's just a bunch of experience that may or may not be true, but it's how I remember it. That's not what I mean when I say morality. I'm referring to how we as a society handle issues of morality. Maybe all convicts should get fMRI scans to see if something is wrong with their brain. If not, then it's behavioral. It can be helped. I guess that a soceity that simply recognizes the truth about themselves will be more understanding of each other. It's not a verse out of an ancient book. It has a lot more backing it up. So it's not about me, it's about the guy that hit my sister with a car, the guy that hit me with his truck, the police officer that killed my grandparents, the kids that beat me up in highschool, it's about everyone.
No that's not it at all. See, you interact with your environment and adapt to it as any kind of organism. So what you are is a product of your environment. With our species our environment includes a social aspect. We developed more advanced brain regions that allow for some pretty unusual things. It's believed, not confirmed, that consciousness is located in the frontal cortex, not all neural correlates have been observed though. The neural correlate for vision is in the frontal lobe. But anyway, you still make decisions based on your environment and what you experience. You are still you, you have to make decisions all the time, but only recognize what those decisions are based on. Because it's how you look at other people's decisions. People attribute incorrectly all the time. I was discussing with another determinist I work with, why a certain coworker might behave obnoxiously in their 30s and we came up with some theories. The obnoxious coworker would have just called us assholes. See, we weren't attributing his behavior to his free-will, we attributed to his experience. Ultimately though, you have no choice, but you need to make choices. I know it sounds messed up. The choices are going to come to you anyway, you will have to make choices, but whatever you choose ultimately is not your choice. Anyway, I beat this horse dead a long time ago. I don't know why I'm still trying to explain it. It's just an issue of morality, but it requires a massive change in world perspective that seems kind of unusual, it's certainly nowhere near the norm.
you're explaining it because you saw i hadn't quite grasped what you were saying.
so we make choices throughout our lives but in the end it those choices are irrelevant?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
No the choices aren't irrelevant. They make all the difference in our experience. We control our experience of our environment through our perception which controls our decision making. It's all connected, it's one system. We are our brains and our bodies. I am my brain and my body. It is subject to the laws of physics, which are deterministic. Forget about fate, you don't have to be a predeterminist, that's somewhere in the future maybe. It's mostly about knowing that a brain makes the decisions not the consciousness. I think consciousness is an emergent property. Organisms need to feel pain, so they have an experience of it, humans need to see, hear, smell, feel pain, etc... so they have experiences of all of that, combined it's a consciousness, but that is all, a place where our brains experience. Ultimately what it means is that people can only ever make one choice. They can think about it forever and the longer they think about it they may make a better choice. Ultimately the choice to think longer about it was made by the brain as well. It's good to make choices, they are essential, it's just good to make good choices and realize why people might make bad choices. Our brains need to know that more knowledge makes better choices. Personality and emotion alone aren't good bases for decision making in many cases.
Ok. Well I hope that you'll accept me as a friend anyway. Regardless of your thoughts on my "illusionary beliefs". As I accept you and yours.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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And what an excellent discussion it has been GS.
And I agree with everything you've said here. I think that many of us believe and have faith in others. And try to live good, kind, productive and helpful lives. And to go forward with love and compassion and humanity.
Peace, love and acceptance. Those are the things I try to have faith in.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
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YOU are responsible for your thoughts, actions, and imposistions.. and only you carry any consequences from your decisions though your choice effects others.
oh and rock the fuck on to the one who posted the lyrics to Science!! LOVE that song!!.
Thanks Jeanie. Your positive energy in your posts is great, even if sometimes it's Chardonnay induced.
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
We have been using the example of love. When the subject of love comes up, you say that love is this and that chemical. When a person experiences this or that chemical, they are also experiencing actions. Love is extended beyond the chemical into acts, like in a play--stories. This is what I referred to earlier about the images our brain chemicals project into the world. We create these little scenarios around us. We act them out with our physical bodies. These plays that we act out may entail sex, which can lead to a pregnancy. The actual experience and actions of love are far beyond a chemical. They can result in the creation of a human life! That is beyond your chemicals--it becomes about affecting the chemicals of another person which are far beyond you. And by such a connections you can actually play a part in creating new chemicals in a new individual, all within the framework of love. The chemicals you speak of are intricately interwoven with the meaingful experiences and actions that I refer to. These 'plays' we act out in love, are an example of what I refer to as the illusions we play out in the real world. A girl might kiss you, and that is a physically observable objective and neutral action. And yet, your response naturally ascribes meaning to that kiss. Was it good or bad? Even if part of you is thinking about your brain chemicals during the kiss ( :rolleyes: ), other parts of your body may respond in other ways. Those responses may trigger other chemicals. These "plays" and the scripts that our brain programming projects into the world is, IMHO, far beyond being just the chemical. It's about complex interactions of chemicals, organisms, forces, all playing out in unendingly unique patterns.
In our western reductionist view, we want to understand what is potent about an apple. So we take the apple apart and come up with some vitamins and minerals and put them in a jar and sell them. We're so smart we think. And we overlook the fact that it's the apple itself, with all the parts working in perfect interaction that truly makes the potency of the apple. When we reduce at the expense of understanding, we lose understanding. We ignore things, making them unconscious even though in the objective natural world they are right before our eyes. We've created negative hallucinations by glossing over them. I've heard a few people in this thread say we are our brain or our chemicals. I see we are our skin, our hearts, organs, cells, our actions, our heartfelt meaning that we put into our world and on and on. We have chemical correlates for who we are, but to confuse that with being who we are is profoundly reductionist to me. At the same time, if someone talks about love, and you say that the brain chemistry nature of love is: such and such, that is acceptable, because you are not attempting to collapse all the other important variables, but rather you have defined a specific context.
When we take the actions of love and seek to understand them, we have naturally come to brain chemicals. When a scientist then tells me that those chemicals ARE love, I see that they have forgotten the reality they had initially hoped to understand.
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I don't intend to steal away the potency of the experience of love. Certainly the chemicals of love and the experience of love are two different things. The experience is however an emergent property of the chemicals. Understanding how the chemicals behave we can better tune ourselves in and out of love, we can capitalize on the experience of love with a greater understanding of all aspects of it. Experience will always seem greater to us than the parts that make it up, because our consciousness is experience. I'm not trying to take anything away, I just don't want it to go "far beyond".
I think if Ahnimus were to kiss me and then see me puke, he may understand this point of view more clearly.
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it seems you don't know what love is. your posts seem to centre on the need to reproduce. this is chemical. you cannot explain unconditional love or devotion to one person. if in fact the emotion is chemical; then people would act as animals in that when the recipient of that love is away; the chemical reaction would take place with another. this is what makes humans different.
the urge for sex is chemical; love is something completely different and does transend far beyond scientific explaination.
Of course I got it!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Sheesh!!
My philosophy? Be happy wherever you can, because the alternative is not fun. Find happiness, joy and love in small things as well as big. And if you have to find an emotional guideline to take you through life then I choose the positive ones. AND if some days that proves a little difficult, then a glass or four or chardy is not the worst thing you can do with an afternoon occassionally!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
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I couldn't agree with you more. Sometimes in the smallest, simplest things one finds the greatest strength, happiness, and positivity. Outlook/perception is major!!!
For me it's a glass or two of whiskey.
And that failure's no success at all."
"Don't ya think its sometimes wise not to grow up."
"Cause life ain't nothing but a good groove
A good mixed tape to put you in the right mood."
Yes, perception!! That's it exactly!! I have to say it's been interesting reading all the different points of view here on the thread in that even those on different sides of the debate seem to be coming to the discussion with passion for their own point of view. And my perception of that would be that Passion = Love, which is all positive emotions.
Well gs we'll never fight over the last drink!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift