Explain why any race should get interest free loans and paid tuition based upon race. Either way. Maybe THEN you'd actually have a point.
I think the better way would be to base this type of thing on INCOME, not race. Michael Jordan's kids should not get any of these breaks, but I've seen some areas of white poverty full of 'em. The cost of college is ridiculous, particularly for those who come from no money.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Boy, that's a terrible injustice. That's just as oppressive as centuries of slavery, Jim Crow Laws, segregation, etc. I can't believe that someone hasn't written a folk song about that yet.
Except that one is happening NOW and one happened a long time ago.
I think the better way would be to base this type of thing on INCOME, not race. Michael Jordan's kids should not get any of these breaks, but I've seen some areas of white poverty full of 'em. The cost of college is ridiculous, particularly for those who come from no money.
Demand MJ give back his blood money he earned offa whitey by being dilligent, work hard and application. Ask MIKE if HEd want to give his money to people who didnt earn it.
Demand MJ give back his blood money he earned offa whitey by being dilligent, work hard and application. Ask MIKE if HEd want to give his money to people who didnt earn it.
I assume that when your parents die, you won't accept any money that might come your way, since YOU didn't earn it.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I assume that when your parents die, you won't accept any money that might come your way, since YOU didn't earn it.
Are you assuming that mike is ALL black peoples parents? you say noone can be so stupid to not understand some of the quesitons offered here today. Yet the questions are absolutely stupid to begin with. Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved? Where exactly are the two things even remotely the same?
As Im sure they'd thank you for your undying allegiance to giving handouts to those who dont deserve it too. GL with it.
Can you find the post where I said that we should definitely give out reparations? I said that this is a discussion/debate that America needs to have. A discussion on slavery can't just be:
"Boy, we're really sorry about that slavery thing... yeah, that's our bad. Man, it sure felt good to get that off our chests. Alright, that's all in the past now, water under the bridge, bygones being bygones, etc. We freed you and now you're gonna be fine. Any problems you blacks have from here on out are your own fault. The playing field is now officially level. You're welcome, by the way."
Denying the societal effect that slavery still has on America today is simply ridiculous.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Can you find the post where I said that we should definitely give out reparations? I said that this is a discussion/debate that America needs to have. A discussion on slavery can't just be:
"Boy, we're really sorry about that slavery thing... yeah, that's our bad. Man, it sure felt good to get that off our chests. Alright, that's all in the past now, water under the bridge, bygones being bygones, etc. We freed you and now you're gonna be fine. Any problems you blacks have from here on out are your own fault. The playing field is now officially level. You're welcome, by the way."
Denying the societal effect that slavery still has on America today is simply ridiculous.
Are you assuming that mike is ALL black peoples parents? you say noone can be so stupid to not understand some of the quesitons offered here today. Yet the questions are absolutely stupid to begin with. Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved? Where exactly are the two things even remotely the same?
Oh my god .... I really can't believe that I have to explain this in such elementary terms ... but I will try.
First of all, Mike has nothing to do with anything I'm about to say. Forget about Mike.
Let's go back to the mid-19th century. Your great-great-great grandfather was most likely a hard working man. He may have been a farmer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, or a banker, or whatever. He worked hard, provided for his family, and when he died they got his property, his savings, and his business if he had one. Your great-great-grandfather was able to build on that and pass a little something along to your great-grandfather, and so on.
Now imagine that you are a black man. Your great-great-great grandfather worked from dawn until dark, seven days a week, backbreaking labor, and when he died, your great-great grandfather got ... well, he didn't get shit, because no one ever paid great-great-great grandpa a dime, and it would have been illegal for him to own property anyway. Nobody ever came through with any acres or mules for great-great grandpa, so he died with pretty much the same nothing he started out with. The money that your grandparents earned never went to them, it went to someone else, and got passed along to THEIR kids, not you.
Please tell me you understand this.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Oh my god .... I really can't believe that I have to explain this in such elementary terms ... but I will try.
First of all, Mike has nothing to do with anything I'm about to say. Forget about Mike.
Let's go back to the mid-19th century. Your great-great-great grandfather was most likely a hard working man. He may have been a farmer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, or a banker, or whatever. He worked hard, provided for his family, and when he died they got his property, his savings, and his business if he had one. Your great-great-grandfather was able to build on that and pass a little something along to your great-grandfather, and so on.
Now imagine that you are a black man. Your great-great-great grandfather worked from dawn until dark, seven days a week, backbreaking labor, and when he died, your great-great grandfather got ... well, he didn't get shit, because no one ever paid great-great-great grandpa a dime, and it would have been illegal for him to own property anyway. Nobody ever came through with any acres or mules for great-great grandpa, so he died with pretty much the same nothing he started out with. The money that your grandparents earned never went to them, it went to someone else, and got passed along to THEIR kids, not you.
Please tell me you understand this.
No, they obviously don't.
*hangs head*
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
This is just getting ridiculous. If you don't agree with reparations, fine, say so, debate, that's what we're here for. But don't sit here and pretend that you don't understand the questions being asked about whether or not you'd be willing to live as a black person in order to receive these wonderful reparations, or the issues concerning inheritance, because I'm not buying it. NO ONE is that stupid.
Are we STILL on the hypotheticals?
I don't think it's about being black or white or brown or yellow or red...it's about doing as close to the right thing as we can...TODAY. Some of our forefathers owned slaves...so be it. Slaves (kind of wrong or totally wrong) have been a part of history since the beginning of man, and there are still slaves/servants/employees/whatever you want to call them, in various stages all throughout the civilized and uncivilized world to this day, and they will exist for the forseeable future.
You can take my lilly "white" (sunburned red) skin and give me any pigment on the planet's spectrum...I don't care. I'm going to live my life honestly, raise my family decently, and try to have as much fun on this shitty planet before I die as I can..."slave" to the system, or "free man"...today, luckily most of us (in America at least) have the choice. Life's what you make it, and the more you bitch about reparations, the more "slavelike" you'll feel.
In conclusion...
It shouldn't and won't happen...it's too late in the game. Even most of the remaining Nazi concentration camp "kids" don't deserve a dime in my opinion...because it's not the Nazi's kids or grandkids who murdered their parents. Now if there are any convicted Nazi survivors, drain their bank accounts, execute them, whatever...but you can't keep passing the blame to subsequent, and innocent, generations.
Once again...these oppressed groups through history just have to be thankful they're still alive and hope their kids don't have to deal with similar nightmare scenarios.
And if one of you crazies makes it to office, God help us all, because that will be the beginning of the end of this young (yet very fragile) country.
Good night now!
19 (*soon to be 21) Pearl Jam shows (plus 2 Eddie & 1 TOTD) and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; *2025 (2) - Hollywood, FL I & II
Let's go back to the mid-19th century. Your great-great-great grandfather was most likely a hard working man. He may have been a farmer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, or a banker, or whatever. He worked hard, provided for his family, and when he died they got his property, his savings, and his business if he had one. Your great-great-grandfather was able to build on that and pass a little something along to your great-grandfather, and so on.
Now imagine that you are a black man. Your great-great-great grandfather worked from dawn until dark, seven days a week, backbreaking labor, and when he died, your great-great grandfather got ... well, he didn't get shit, because no one ever paid great-great-great grandpa a dime, and it would have been illegal for him to own property anyway. Nobody ever came through with any acres or mules for great-great grandpa, so he died with pretty much the same nothing he started out with. The money that your grandparents earned never went to them, it went to someone else, and got passed along to THEIR kids, not you.
Please tell me you understand this.
So...
Is Mike's grandpa the white guy or the black guy? I don't get it.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Thanks, if ever there was a thread in desperate need of a little comic relief, this is it.
But like, how can he be a banker and a blacksmith? I don't get it.
I also highly recommend the West Wing episode that VictoryGin mentioned. It's called "6 Meetings Before Lunch", but I can't remember which season it's in.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Quote:
Originally Posted by truroute
You have it better because you chose to better yourself. Everyone has the opportunity to go to college (if grades permit), even if you can't afford it straight up, they could go your route and obtain loans.
It's not as simple as all whites lucky and all black people screwed.
But the first post implies that those that are unsuccessful are that way because of their own lack of effort and that all of us has an equal opportunity for success. Blacks have not been as successful as whites. One can only conclude, I suppose, that it is because they are lacking in some way (drive, intellegence, morals, or something).
I aimed that to not only one race/group. Aimed toward all wht, blk whatever.
Oh my god .... I really can't believe that I have to explain this in such elementary terms ... but I will try.
First of all, Mike has nothing to do with anything I'm about to say. Forget about Mike.
Let's go back to the mid-19th century. Your great-great-great grandfather was most likely a hard working man. He may have been a farmer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, or a banker, or whatever. He worked hard, provided for his family, and when he died they got his property, his savings, and his business if he had one. Your great-great-grandfather was able to build on that and pass a little something along to your great-grandfather, and so on.
Now imagine that you are a black man. Your great-great-great grandfather worked from dawn until dark, seven days a week, backbreaking labor, and when he died, your great-great grandfather got ... well, he didn't get shit, because no one ever paid great-great-great grandpa a dime, and it would have been illegal for him to own property anyway. Nobody ever came through with any acres or mules for great-great grandpa, so he died with pretty much the same nothing he started out with. The money that your grandparents earned never went to them, it went to someone else, and got passed along to THEIR kids, not you.
Please tell me you understand this.
And I can't believe you're so pretentious and pompous so as to act like I dont understand your line of thinking. I understand it fully. Its simply flawed. I disagree. Thats allowed isnt it?
I understand that you are a bleeding heart who is desparate for people to feel sorry for. Its okay. Its an illness. I dont give credit to my family's "financial security" of the past for any part of where I am today. My family isnt wealthy. They were "commoners". Anything I HAVE is because I earned it. I dont feel im "owed"' anything, including this money you seem to think every white guy got from his parents. !!!!! Everyone creates their own reality. Black people's lives isnt any more affected by transgressions of many years ago any more than mine or yours. Its simply an excuse at this point. Not only do they not deserve financial restitution, it would be almost impossible to do it. Hurricane Katrina Relief Fund Abuse Ring A Bell??? If you start giving out money, every asshole out there with a chip on his shoulder over 'the man holding him down' will be doing everything in their power to collect what ISNT rightfully theirs. Also, would their ancestors home countries WHO SOLD THEM also participate in this little game of free money, or only the big bad evil United States be obligated?
And I dont want to forget about Mike, or any other very wealthy blacks. Do you think they'd want a slice of their money for something like this taken from them against their wishes?
\
I don't think it's about being black or white or brown or yellow or red...it's about doing as close to the right thing as we can...TODAY. Some of our forefathers owned slaves...so be it. Slaves (kind of wrong or totally wrong) have been a part of history since the beginning of man, and there are still slaves/servants/employees/whatever you want to call them, in various stages all throughout the civilized and uncivilized world to this day, and they will exist for the forseeable future.
You can take my lilly "white" (sunburned red) skin and give me any pigment on the planet's spectrum...I don't care. I'm going to live my life honestly, raise my family decently, and try to have as much fun on this shitty planet before I die as I can..."slave" to the system, or "free man"...today, luckily most of us (in America at least) have the choice. Life's what you make it, and the more you bitch about reparations, the more "slavelike" you'll feel.
In conclusion...
It shouldn't and won't happen...it's too late in the game. Even most of the remaining Nazi concentration camp "kids" don't deserve a dime in my opinion...because it's not the Nazi's kids or grandkids who murdered their parents. Now if there are any convicted Nazi survivors, drain their bank accounts, execute them, whatever...but you can't keep passing the blame to subsequent, and innocent, generations.
Once again...these oppressed groups through history just have to be thankful they're still alive and hope their kids don't have to deal with similar nightmare scenarios.
And if one of you crazies makes it to office, God help us all, because that will be the beginning of the end of this young (yet very fragile) country.
Christ almighty. The point was this: truroute said something to the effect of: "I want interest free loans, I want paid tech college tuition, etc., but I won't get it because I'm white." I'm sure it was meant sarcastically, he just wanted to point out how "unfair" reparations would be to white people. My response was to present him with this hypothetical: Would he be willing to live life as a black person in America in order to be eligible for the interest free loans and paid tuition? I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain it.
Sarcastic, yes, but also wondering how can some people scream for equality but also scream for special treatment.
Sarcastic, yes, but also wondering how can some people scream for equality but also scream for special treatment.
Tis the disease we call liberalism. Much like feminisim, and racism. For them its a one way street, only White Male Americans are at fault for everything, and we deserve nothing.
And I can't believe you're so pretentious and pompous so as to act like I dont understand your line of thinking. I understand it fully. Its simply flawed. I disagree. Thats allowed isnt it?
Perhaps if you could compose a coherent sentence, I'd be a little clearer as to what you do and don't understand. Things like "Demand MJ give back his blood money he earned offa whitey by being dilligent, work hard and application," and "Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved?" not only leave a lot of room for interpretation, but they also make it far from clear that you even understand the points that are being made.
I understand that you are a bleeding heart who is desparate for people to feel sorry for. Its okay. Its an illness. I dont give credit to my family's "financial security" of the past for any part of where I am today. My family isnt wealthy. They were "commoners". Anything I HAVE is because I earned it. I dont feel im "owed"' anything, including this money you seem to think every white guy got from his parents. !!!!! Everyone creates their own reality. Black people's lives isnt any more affected by transgressions of many years ago any more than mine or yours. Its simply an excuse at this point. Not only do they not deserve financial restitution, it would be almost impossible to do it. Hurricane Katrina Relief Fund Abuse Ring A Bell??? If you start giving out money, every asshole out there with a chip on his shoulder over 'the man holding him down' will be doing everything in their power to collect what ISNT rightfully theirs. Also, would their ancestors home countries WHO SOLD THEM also participate in this little game of free money, or only the big bad evil United States be obligated?
I haven't inherited anything either, and doubt that I'll ever inherit anything of any great substance, since I am a commoner as well, but I'll tell you this ... if my grandfather had died with someone owing him $1,000, or $100,000, I'd say that money belonged in MY family and not the family of the guy who owed it to him. And face it ... if our families didn't leave us anything, that was their own failure. Black families didn't have the opportunity to leave anything, no matter how hard they worked, and they worked a lot harder than most of our ancestors, under indescribably worse conditions.
Also, I will point out that I never said that we should immediately start handing out checks, or that we should EVER start handing out checks. All I'm saying is that it's something that needs to be discussed honestly. As Milhouse said, we can't just say "hey, we're real sorry" and pretend that evens the playing field.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Black people's lives isnt any more affected by transgressions of many years ago any more than mine or yours. Its simply an excuse at this point.
Yeah, sure, it's ancient history. Let's see, the Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Boy, that was a long time ago, close to 150 years old. So blacks in this country have had almost a century and a half to get over it. God, you guys, move on! Geez. Never mind the fact that the government did almost nothing to help integrate them into American society as freemen. 150 years seems like a long time until you consider the fact that the Civil Rights Act wasn't passed until 1964 and the Voting Rights Act wasn't passed until 1965. It only took 100 years after freeing them to legally recognize them as, you know, human beings.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
HOW IS A RIGHTFUL INHERITANCE CONSIDERED SPECIAL TREATMENT!!
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
Okay, lets say its an inheritance. Now lets deduct the cost of rent, the cost of food, the cost of occasional and subpar medical care, the cost of clothing... wouldnt exactly leave much for a retirement fund.
for most laborers, that pretty much takes up the whole paycheck once you pay those bills.... so, in essense, they wouldnt have had any money to leave to their heirs anyways.
HOW IS A RIGHTFUL INHERITANCE CONSIDERED SPECIAL TREATMENT!!
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
OK, since Hippiemom took the time to spell out what SHE meant by her inheritance argument. I understand. And "in a way" is agree. But, convince me otherwise please, I do not think for one freakin' second that this whole reparation shit today is about inheritance. I dont not think that the civil right leaders or who the fuck ever thought up the idea of reparations really honestly thought about "payment due" or whatever. Judging from what I've seen w/ my own eyes, heard w/ my own ear and how these so called "leaders" act, this is nothing but a fucking money grab.
Also, I did glance back throught the thread and If you would be so kind to repeat yourself, cause I couldn't find it. What was your answer of when I asked what positive events, or what good would come of paying reparations. All I read were basically your own reason of why reps should be payed.
Okay, lets say its an inheritance. Now lets deduct the cost of rent, the cost of food, the cost of occasional and subpar medical care, the cost of clothing... wouldnt exactly leave much for a retirement fund.
for most laborers, that pretty much takes up the whole paycheck once you pay those bills.... so, in essense, they wouldnt have had any money to leave to their heirs anyways.
in the first part of your post, are you talking about slaves? if you are then i would highly disagree with the connection to the second part of your post. slaves weren't like typical laborers in their daily lives. many of them had one 'outfit', and many made their own clothes (not like no one else ever made their clothes, but making your own clothes is not as expensive). rent? yikes. i can't imagine a shack with a dirt floor crammed with others would cost much, as i would doubt the food they were allowed to eat would cost much either. and medical care? were they given neosporin after the whippings? how many slaves really received actual medical care?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
in the first part of your post, are you talking about slaves? if you are then i would highly disagree with the connection to the second part of your post. slaves weren't like typical laborers in their daily lives. many of them had one 'outfit', and many made their own clothes (not like no one else ever made their clothes, but making your own clothes is not as expensive). rent? yikes. i can't imagine a shack with a dirt floor crammed with others would cost much, as i would doubt the food they were allowed to eat would cost much either. and medical care? were they given neosporin after the whippings? how many slaves really received actual medical care?
And lets not forget that vast numbers of them would have chosen to be something other than fieldhands and scrubwomen if they had been allowed to get an education and choose their own livelihood.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
in the first part of your post, are you talking about slaves? if you are then i would highly disagree with the connection to the second part of your post. slaves weren't like typical laborers in their daily lives. many of them had one 'outfit', and many made their own clothes (not like no one else ever made their clothes, but making your own clothes is not as expensive). rent? yikes. i can't imagine a shack with a dirt floor crammed with others would cost much, as i would doubt the food they were allowed to eat would cost much either. and medical care? were they given neosporin after the whippings? how many slaves really received actual medical care?
I dont agree with what ive posted from a moral standpoint... However... if the arguement being proposed is that they were not paid what they earned, then you also have to take into account that had they been paid, they would have had those expenses as well in all likelyhood. Yes they had very limited clothing, and their places of residences were very shitty.. and as i stated when i mentioned medical care i point out that it was both occasional and subpar. However- slaves were an investement, so there were definately instances where medical concerns were addressed on some level.
also, i asked this earlier in the thread... Not all slaves were treated equally to others- some worked fields, some fetched tea. Some were beaten regularly, others were treated with some measure of respect- and got better food, and care, and clothes, and quarters... So they've been "paid" more than the ones that were abused moreso already, so should they recieve less reperations, since they were "paid" some of it?
And lets not forget that vast numbers of them would have chosen to be something other than fieldhands and scrubwomen if they had been allowed to get an education and choose their own livelihood.
and what they WOULD have been, had they been free, is irrelevant, in regards to the arguement that what they should be paid is akin to an inheritance. if my father HAD invested in early microsoft, I would have more of an inheritance....
Like i said, i dont morally agree with the justifications im making- however, i thnk the notion of an "inheritance" is far fetched.
Perhaps if you could compose a coherent sentence, I'd be a little clearer as to what you do and don't understand. Things like "Demand MJ give back his blood money he earned offa whitey by being dilligent, work hard and application," and "Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved?" not only leave a lot of room for interpretation, but they also make it far from clear that you even understand the points that are being made.
I haven't inherited anything either, and doubt that I'll ever inherit anything of any great substance, since I am a commoner as well, but I'll tell you this ... if my grandfather had died with someone owing him $1,000, or $100,000, I'd say that money belonged in MY family and not the family of the guy who owed it to him. And face it ... if our families didn't leave us anything, that was their own failure. Black families didn't have the opportunity to leave anything, no matter how hard they worked, and they worked a lot harder than most of our ancestors, under indescribably worse conditions.
Also, I will point out that I never said that we should immediately start handing out checks, or that we should EVER start handing out checks. All I'm saying is that it's something that needs to be discussed honestly. As Milhouse said, we can't just say "hey, we're real sorry" and pretend that evens the playing field.
Perhaps my MJ example wasnt worded well. Sorry.
"Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved?"
How is that incoherent? Sorry if im not as articulate and verbose as you apparently are. I understand perfectly what the topic is. The topic is reparations. And Ive stated my opinion on it. Because you are either incapable or unwilling to understand, this gives you reason to be snotty??
So, let me get this straight. You dont think "we" owe them money. But an apology doesnt suffice either, nor an understanding that what went down back then is wrong. (which pretty much most people know and understand, and is all that "the blacks" can really ask for.) You just know we must owe them something. Is that it? We just need to "discuss it honestly". Good idea. Its revolutionary. Its utterly unique. What a mind bendingly awesome idea. How did I not grasp this. I apologize for my obvious stupidity. Hippiemom for president!! She's a woman with answers!!!!
Comments
I think the better way would be to base this type of thing on INCOME, not race. Michael Jordan's kids should not get any of these breaks, but I've seen some areas of white poverty full of 'em. The cost of college is ridiculous, particularly for those who come from no money.
Except that one is happening NOW and one happened a long time ago.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Demand MJ give back his blood money he earned offa whitey by being dilligent, work hard and application. Ask MIKE if HEd want to give his money to people who didnt earn it.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Are you assuming that mike is ALL black peoples parents? you say noone can be so stupid to not understand some of the quesitons offered here today. Yet the questions are absolutely stupid to begin with. Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved? Where exactly are the two things even remotely the same?
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Can you find the post where I said that we should definitely give out reparations? I said that this is a discussion/debate that America needs to have. A discussion on slavery can't just be:
"Boy, we're really sorry about that slavery thing... yeah, that's our bad. Man, it sure felt good to get that off our chests. Alright, that's all in the past now, water under the bridge, bygones being bygones, etc. We freed you and now you're gonna be fine. Any problems you blacks have from here on out are your own fault. The playing field is now officially level. You're welcome, by the way."
Denying the societal effect that slavery still has on America today is simply ridiculous.
So is paying them off.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
First of all, Mike has nothing to do with anything I'm about to say. Forget about Mike.
Let's go back to the mid-19th century. Your great-great-great grandfather was most likely a hard working man. He may have been a farmer, or a blacksmith, or a carpenter, or a banker, or whatever. He worked hard, provided for his family, and when he died they got his property, his savings, and his business if he had one. Your great-great-grandfather was able to build on that and pass a little something along to your great-grandfather, and so on.
Now imagine that you are a black man. Your great-great-great grandfather worked from dawn until dark, seven days a week, backbreaking labor, and when he died, your great-great grandfather got ... well, he didn't get shit, because no one ever paid great-great-great grandpa a dime, and it would have been illegal for him to own property anyway. Nobody ever came through with any acres or mules for great-great grandpa, so he died with pretty much the same nothing he started out with. The money that your grandparents earned never went to them, it went to someone else, and got passed along to THEIR kids, not you.
Please tell me you understand this.
I FUCKING DID!!!
No, they obviously don't.
*hangs head*
Forget it, this is exhausting.
Are we STILL on the hypotheticals?
I don't think it's about being black or white or brown or yellow or red...it's about doing as close to the right thing as we can...TODAY. Some of our forefathers owned slaves...so be it. Slaves (kind of wrong or totally wrong) have been a part of history since the beginning of man, and there are still slaves/servants/employees/whatever you want to call them, in various stages all throughout the civilized and uncivilized world to this day, and they will exist for the forseeable future.
You can take my lilly "white" (sunburned red) skin and give me any pigment on the planet's spectrum...I don't care. I'm going to live my life honestly, raise my family decently, and try to have as much fun on this shitty planet before I die as I can..."slave" to the system, or "free man"...today, luckily most of us (in America at least) have the choice. Life's what you make it, and the more you bitch about reparations, the more "slavelike" you'll feel.
In conclusion...
It shouldn't and won't happen...it's too late in the game. Even most of the remaining Nazi concentration camp "kids" don't deserve a dime in my opinion...because it's not the Nazi's kids or grandkids who murdered their parents. Now if there are any convicted Nazi survivors, drain their bank accounts, execute them, whatever...but you can't keep passing the blame to subsequent, and innocent, generations.
Once again...these oppressed groups through history just have to be thankful they're still alive and hope their kids don't have to deal with similar nightmare scenarios.
And if one of you crazies makes it to office, God help us all, because that will be the beginning of the end of this young (yet very fragile) country.
Good night now!
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; *2025 (2) - Hollywood, FL I & II
So...
Is Mike's grandpa the white guy or the black guy? I don't get it.
Thanks, if ever there was a thread in desperate need of a little comic relief, this is it.
But like, how can he be a banker and a blacksmith? I don't get it.
I also highly recommend the West Wing episode that VictoryGin mentioned. It's called "6 Meetings Before Lunch", but I can't remember which season it's in.
I aimed that to not only one race/group. Aimed toward all wht, blk whatever.
And I can't believe you're so pretentious and pompous so as to act like I dont understand your line of thinking. I understand it fully. Its simply flawed. I disagree. Thats allowed isnt it?
I understand that you are a bleeding heart who is desparate for people to feel sorry for. Its okay. Its an illness. I dont give credit to my family's "financial security" of the past for any part of where I am today. My family isnt wealthy. They were "commoners". Anything I HAVE is because I earned it. I dont feel im "owed"' anything, including this money you seem to think every white guy got from his parents. !!!!! Everyone creates their own reality. Black people's lives isnt any more affected by transgressions of many years ago any more than mine or yours. Its simply an excuse at this point. Not only do they not deserve financial restitution, it would be almost impossible to do it. Hurricane Katrina Relief Fund Abuse Ring A Bell??? If you start giving out money, every asshole out there with a chip on his shoulder over 'the man holding him down' will be doing everything in their power to collect what ISNT rightfully theirs. Also, would their ancestors home countries WHO SOLD THEM also participate in this little game of free money, or only the big bad evil United States be obligated?
And I dont want to forget about Mike, or any other very wealthy blacks. Do you think they'd want a slice of their money for something like this taken from them against their wishes?
\
Oh you've supplied plenty of comic relief prior to that.
What he/she said.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Sarcastic, yes, but also wondering how can some people scream for equality but also scream for special treatment.
Tis the disease we call liberalism. Much like feminisim, and racism. For them its a one way street, only White Male Americans are at fault for everything, and we deserve nothing.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
HOW IS A RIGHTFUL INHERITANCE CONSIDERED SPECIAL TREATMENT!!
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
I haven't inherited anything either, and doubt that I'll ever inherit anything of any great substance, since I am a commoner as well, but I'll tell you this ... if my grandfather had died with someone owing him $1,000, or $100,000, I'd say that money belonged in MY family and not the family of the guy who owed it to him. And face it ... if our families didn't leave us anything, that was their own failure. Black families didn't have the opportunity to leave anything, no matter how hard they worked, and they worked a lot harder than most of our ancestors, under indescribably worse conditions.
Also, I will point out that I never said that we should immediately start handing out checks, or that we should EVER start handing out checks. All I'm saying is that it's something that needs to be discussed honestly. As Milhouse said, we can't just say "hey, we're real sorry" and pretend that evens the playing field.
Yeah, sure, it's ancient history. Let's see, the Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Boy, that was a long time ago, close to 150 years old. So blacks in this country have had almost a century and a half to get over it. God, you guys, move on! Geez. Never mind the fact that the government did almost nothing to help integrate them into American society as freemen. 150 years seems like a long time until you consider the fact that the Civil Rights Act wasn't passed until 1964 and the Voting Rights Act wasn't passed until 1965. It only took 100 years after freeing them to legally recognize them as, you know, human beings.
Okay, lets say its an inheritance. Now lets deduct the cost of rent, the cost of food, the cost of occasional and subpar medical care, the cost of clothing... wouldnt exactly leave much for a retirement fund.
for most laborers, that pretty much takes up the whole paycheck once you pay those bills.... so, in essense, they wouldnt have had any money to leave to their heirs anyways.
That's rich. Didn't you just proclaim then hang yourself in the same sentence like the KKK used to do things?
OK, since Hippiemom took the time to spell out what SHE meant by her inheritance argument. I understand. And "in a way" is agree. But, convince me otherwise please, I do not think for one freakin' second that this whole reparation shit today is about inheritance. I dont not think that the civil right leaders or who the fuck ever thought up the idea of reparations really honestly thought about "payment due" or whatever. Judging from what I've seen w/ my own eyes, heard w/ my own ear and how these so called "leaders" act, this is nothing but a fucking money grab.
Also, I did glance back throught the thread and If you would be so kind to repeat yourself, cause I couldn't find it. What was your answer of when I asked what positive events, or what good would come of paying reparations. All I read were basically your own reason of why reps should be payed.
edit: dont not....good one truroute
in the first part of your post, are you talking about slaves? if you are then i would highly disagree with the connection to the second part of your post. slaves weren't like typical laborers in their daily lives. many of them had one 'outfit', and many made their own clothes (not like no one else ever made their clothes, but making your own clothes is not as expensive). rent? yikes. i can't imagine a shack with a dirt floor crammed with others would cost much, as i would doubt the food they were allowed to eat would cost much either. and medical care? were they given neosporin after the whippings? how many slaves really received actual medical care?
cross the river to the eastside
I dont agree with what ive posted from a moral standpoint... However... if the arguement being proposed is that they were not paid what they earned, then you also have to take into account that had they been paid, they would have had those expenses as well in all likelyhood. Yes they had very limited clothing, and their places of residences were very shitty.. and as i stated when i mentioned medical care i point out that it was both occasional and subpar. However- slaves were an investement, so there were definately instances where medical concerns were addressed on some level.
also, i asked this earlier in the thread... Not all slaves were treated equally to others- some worked fields, some fetched tea. Some were beaten regularly, others were treated with some measure of respect- and got better food, and care, and clothes, and quarters... So they've been "paid" more than the ones that were abused moreso already, so should they recieve less reperations, since they were "paid" some of it?
and what they WOULD have been, had they been free, is irrelevant, in regards to the arguement that what they should be paid is akin to an inheritance. if my father HAD invested in early microsoft, I would have more of an inheritance....
Like i said, i dont morally agree with the justifications im making- however, i thnk the notion of an "inheritance" is far fetched.
I dont understand 70% of what you post. Is english your second language?
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Perhaps my MJ example wasnt worded well. Sorry.
"Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved?"
How is that incoherent? Sorry if im not as articulate and verbose as you apparently are. I understand perfectly what the topic is. The topic is reparations. And Ive stated my opinion on it. Because you are either incapable or unwilling to understand, this gives you reason to be snotty??
So, let me get this straight. You dont think "we" owe them money. But an apology doesnt suffice either, nor an understanding that what went down back then is wrong. (which pretty much most people know and understand, and is all that "the blacks" can really ask for.) You just know we must owe them something. Is that it? We just need to "discuss it honestly". Good idea. Its revolutionary. Its utterly unique. What a mind bendingly awesome idea. How did I not grasp this. I apologize for my obvious stupidity. Hippiemom for president!! She's a woman with answers!!!!
www.myspace.com/jensvad