and what they WOULD have been, had they been free, is irrelevant, in regards to the arguement that what they should be paid is akin to an inheritance. if my father HAD invested in early microsoft, I would have more of an inheritance....
Like i said, i dont morally agree with the justifications im making- however, i thnk the notion of an "inheritance" is far fetched.
If someone had forcibly prevented your father from investing in Microsoft despite his strong desire to do so, I think you'd have a pretty good claim for damages.
I know you don't morally agree with any of this, just as I doubt that simply handing out checks would be the way to address the problem, but I do think it's something that should in some way be dealt with. For generations people were deprived of their freedom, had their children ripped right from their arms and sold away, weren't paid for their labor, they were beaten and maimed and raped and god knows what else. Then slavery was abolished, and for another hundred years they didn't have access to quality education, depriving them of the opportunity for good paying jobs ... they weren't able to vote ... they were lynched ... the list of atrocities just goes on and on and on. Hundreds of years of that sort of treatment takes it's toll, you can't just suddenly say "Ok, we'll stop all that, you're equal now," and think that the effects of all that economic and psychological abuse are going to vanish into thin air.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that saying "fuck it, it's ancient history, and besides, I personally never enslaved anyone" isn't it. And anyone who can't understand how this entire country benefitted economically from the institution of slavery, and from the enforced cheap labor of the free black work force ... well, I don't know what to say to such people.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Firstly, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually attempting to deny the effects that slavery has caused in the US to blacks or racism as a whole. So those of you who keeping alluding to that as a method to somehow try to justify reparations should knock it off.
Secondly, tons of ethnic groups, religions and races have been subject to serious and incompressible laws and actions by the US government. Does this honestly mean that everyone effected in a negative manner is due some sort of reparation? Just honestly think about what you're asking when you mention that. Are all the families of Immigrants during the early 20th Century which were turned away from jobs (things like no jews or irish need apply) due some sort of reparation now? Are minorities that are bused across town to poorer, less funded schooling systems in line for handouts because of racism/ poor decision making? Are relatives of Indians due some sort of reparation because our nation butchered their tribes and stole their lands? The list can go on and on... and it would be to the extent that everyone would have a reason or issue that led them to be held back or negatively impacted (some more legitimate than others obviously - but all legitimate generically speaking). So when people talk of reparations for slavery, please consider this. Any Group of People can trace some negative impact from laws, issues or mistreatment in any form possible - so in summation - trying to ask for some sort of handout now (200 yrs later) is assinine - not to mention poorly thought out and it serves no real purpose other than the fact that people want something that they believe is owed to them - but in reality it's just a free handout for something illegitimate.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
"Why must you equate an inheiratance from your parents hard work being given to family with giving some unknown amount to people who's ancestors were enslaved?"
Because generations were deprived of the opportunity to bequeath an inheritance from THEIR hard work. I'm sorry, I don't know how else to put it. And this is the question that made me doubt that you understood what was being said, because the answer seems so obvious.
So, let me get this straight. You dont think "we" owe them money. But an apology doesnt suffice either, nor an understanding that what went down back then is wrong. (which pretty much most people know and understand, and is all that "the blacks" can really ask for.) You just know we must owe them something. Is that it? We just need to "discuss it honestly". Good idea. Its revolutionary. Its utterly unique. What a mind bendingly awesome idea. How did I not grasp this. I apologize for my obvious stupidity. Hippiemom for president!! She's a woman with answers!!!!
I'm not running for president, I never claimed to have all the answers. I am undecided as to what the best approach would be, and very interested in hearing ideas. No, I don't think an apology will suffice. And who's being snotty now?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I dont agree with what ive posted from a moral standpoint... However... if the arguement being proposed is that they were not paid what they earned, then you also have to take into account that had they been paid, they would have had those expenses as well in all likelyhood. Yes they had very limited clothing, and their places of residences were very shitty.. and as i stated when i mentioned medical care i point out that it was both occasional and subpar. However- slaves were an investement, so there were definately instances where medical concerns were addressed on some level.
also, i asked this earlier in the thread... Not all slaves were treated equally to others- some worked fields, some fetched tea. Some were beaten regularly, others were treated with some measure of respect- and got better food, and care, and clothes, and quarters... So they've been "paid" more than the ones that were abused moreso already, so should they recieve less reperations, since they were "paid" some of it?
I'm sorry I didn't see your earlier question. Usually I'd read a whole thread, but I just didn't have a chance today. Of course you're completely right about different types of slaves. I don't know about different compensation in regards to reparations. I don't personally know I completely feel about reparations. But a slave is still a slave. Even though plantation house slaves may have had it 'better' than field slaves, they were still slaves. They weren't counted as people (hey! eventually they had that 3/5 compromise!). They weren't allowed to read or write because 'owners' were afraid they'd organize and rise up. They were sold at auctions. Familes were sometimes separated. I know I said it already, but they were sold. They were property, not people.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
If someone had forcibly prevented your father from investing in Microsoft despite his strong desire to do so, I think you'd have a pretty good claim for damages.
I know you don't morally agree with any of this, just as I doubt that simply handing out checks would be the way to address the problem, but I do think it's something that should in some way be dealt with. For generations people were deprived of their freedom, had their children ripped right from their arms and sold away, weren't paid for their labor, they were beaten and maimed and raped and god knows what else. Then slavery was abolished, and for another hundred years they didn't have access to quality education, depriving them of the opportunity for good paying jobs ... they weren't able to vote ... they were lynched ... the list of atrocities just goes on and on and on. Hundreds of years of that sort of treatment takes it's toll, you can't just suddenly say "Ok, we'll stop all that, you're equal now," and think that the effects of all that economic and psychological abuse are going to vanish into thin air.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that saying "fuck it, it's ancient history, and besides, I personally never enslaved anyone" isn't it. And anyone who can't understand how this entire country benefitted economically from the institution of slavery, and from the enforced cheap labor of the free black work force ... well, I don't know what to say to such people.
see, i fully agree with this...as my first post exhibits...but yes, i am at a loss on how to turly/accurately and fairly distribute such. not that it's an 'excuse' b/c i agree...just b/c something is difficult should not hinder at least trying.....but yea, i just don't know how we can make reperations that truly do any justice?
i agree 'something' should be done to some degree...although any official apology would seem far too little too late...so i really am at a loss of what we can truly do, etc...thus why i am on the fence all-around. i cannot see a cut-and-dry answer here, not yet anyway.
not to get off topic...but all of this talk of inheritance and such reminds me of england. jane austin's time period, whereas women were not allowed to inherit, so all the money/property went to a male heir if their were no sons, and even with sons, they got all and the daughters nothing...except of course their dowry went to their future husbands. grrrr. just reminded me of all this, obviously NOT the same...not slaves, but still....pisses me off to even think of it too.
Seems that some are for paying reparations and others would rather choke on a penny than give it to a slave ancestor (I fall in the latter category)....
So, here's the solution...when the time comes, every white person can fill out a reparations questionairre asking...
"Would you be willing to put money towards reparations? Yes or No?"
For those that want to pay, feel free...
6-29-98 Chicago, 10-9-00 Chicago, 4-23-03 Champaign, 6-18-03 Chicago, 7-1-03 Bristow, 10-1-04 Reading, 10-11-04 DC, 9-30-05 Atlantic City, 5-30-06 DC, 6-17-08 VA Beach, 8-17-08 DC (Ed), 6-15-09 Baltimore (Ed), 5-13-10 Bristow, 10-29-13 Charlottesville, 4-18-16 Hampton
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that saying "fuck it, it's ancient history, and besides, I personally never enslaved anyone" isn't it. And anyone who can't understand how this entire country benefitted economically from the institution of slavery, and from the enforced cheap labor of the free black work force ... well, I don't know what to say to such people.
Sure you do, you're just too polite to say it.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Firstly, I don't think anyone in this thread is actually attempting to deny the effects that slavery has caused in the US to blacks or racism as a whole. So those of you who keeping alluding to that as a method to somehow try to justify reparations should knock it off.
If you look hard enough, you'll find a few posts in this thread containing sentiments along the lines of "get over it" and "they're just using it (slavery) as an excuse now".
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Ya know, I do agree w/ what some of you ppl are saying. But noting...NOTHING will "compensate" for the past. An apology wont work, free college, interest free loans, a history month,reparations, what ever. It still wont erase the past, nothing can change it obviously. Only one thing can be done, learn from it. Live in the present and quit dwelling on something that happened 150 yrs ago. Yeah, sure...there are still times/places where the past is beaten like a dead horse, on both sides of the issue. But shit, quit whining about it and rise up by bettering yourself by your own actions and not by pity money.(in the case of reparations)
If you look hard enough, you'll find a few posts in this thread containing sentiments along the lines of "get over it" and "they're just using it (slavery) as an excuse now".
Why shouldn't the people today "get over it"?
Does it help anyone to keep bringing it up all the time? I'm not saying forget about it, but for shits sake.
Well in all honesty, the only thing we can do is move forward and try to educate people to the harms and problems of racism (the main lastly effect from slavery). Throwing money at a problem doesn't solve anything, not to mention that this problem occured 200+ yrs ago. And what it comes down to is, why do people now want reparations? Is it simply because it rights' a wrong? Or is it because they feel it somehow effects their life now and this money will somehow fix the imbalance the wrong created. Handing out checks to any group of people won't rectify the effects of the imbalance, that is the one thing I know 110%. If you think I'm wrong, think about this for a minute: Should women and minorities get some greater reward in society because only in the last 100 or so years, they were first given the right to vote? Would it be ok if they sued the US government or received reparations because they don't have as much of a say in the laws that effect them in every which way due to the fact that they weren't allowed to voice their rights? The stance and arguement is rock solid, yet giving them reparations wouldn't change the issue at hand, all it would do is show in some way - a wrong was being righted.... but that's why they changed the laws to begin with. Slavery was abolished and laws were put in place to attempt to undo their negative effects. Not all worked or work, but all you can realistically do is try to create a balanced and fair playing field for everyone. Just as it was wrong for people to be on the receiving end of poor laws and ill treatment, that doesn't justify a future group to be mistreated as some sort of way to balance out the equation.
If you look hard enough, you'll find a few posts in this thread containing sentiments along the lines of "get over it" and "they're just using it (slavery) as an excuse now".
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Should women and minorities get some greater reward in society because only in the last 100 or so years, they were first given the right to vote? Would it be ok if they sued the US government or received reparations because they don't have as much of a say in the laws that effect them in every which way due to the fact that they weren't allowed to voice their rights?
That question crossed my mind today. I mean, slavery is slavery, and is more overt. But there was that whole issue of coverture and all . . .
These are interesting questions, to say the least.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I'm in agreement with all the opinions expressed here (the last two paragraphs are about reparations):
Freedom in his Blood
By Suzanne C. Ryan
The Boston Globe, February 26, 2001
Great-great grandson of abolitionist Frederick Douglass faces new problems in age-old fight
It's Sunday afternoon and Beacon Hill's African Meeting House is hushed. As a pianist plays gospel music softly, more than 60 people shift in their folding chairs, waiting expectantly for a visitor from Baltimore to take the floor.
As the guest rises from his seat, a quiver of anticipation runs through the crowd, as if history is about to be made. "I'm very concerned about the status of black Americans," he says in a booming tone that resonates across the 195-year-old church like an echo from the past.
The featured speaker is Frederick Douglass IV - great-great-grandson of the famous orator and abolitionist who himself spole passionately in this very sanctuary in the mid-1800s.
Douglass in on a mission, and his agenda mirrors his ancestor's. He wants to free African-Americans, and in the 21st century that means free them economically. Free them from what he calls the immoral influence of rap music. Free them from substandard schools. Free them from a system that incarcerates record numbers of black men. Free them from the Democratic Party - even though he is a Democrat.
Convinced that African-Americans need a revolution, Douglass has hit the lecture circuit. Using his name as a draw, the 54-year-old is visiting churches, schools, and other venues nationwide to spread his message of change. Douglass, who resembles his great-great grandfather, sometimes also dons a top hat, wig, and morning coat and reenacts speeches that the original Fredrick Douglass delivered.
"I want to perpetuate the legacy," he says. "But I feel the need to address what's current."
Today, Douglass is citing a litany of issues in the black community, from teenage pregnancy to the popularity of misogynistic lyrics in hip-hop music. Dressed nattily in a navy suit, bright yellow tie, and coordinating pocket handkerchief, he stomps his foot against the wooden floor for effect as he walks down the aisle, proclaiming, "Until we take the steps necessary for collective change, we aren't going anywhere! Now is the time bring about change."
It has been 138 years since the Emancipation Proclaimation; what would Douglass the elder - who fought so hard and risked so much for progress - think of the state of black America were he alive today?
"He would have mixed emotions," contends Douglass IV. "We've progressed, yet we've regressed. Education is more widespread and material gains are greater ... but the wealth gap between blacks and whites is increasing."
What's more, he adds, many black women are raising children by themselves. Urban schools are short on books. Racial profiling by police is common. Discrimination has been documented at Fortune 100 companies. Even voting rights are in question after the fiasco in Florida over the presidential election.
Meanwhile, he says, many young African-American men and women have been sidetracked by some of the self-hatred lyrics in hip-hop music. "Sometimes I turn on the radio and it breaks my heart. A popular song in Baltimore has the line, 'I want a project chick, I want a parking lot trick.' If your women are ... whores and you're a dog, what are your children?"
"If you hear something long enough, you start to believe it. We have to be self-determining. Unplug the radio. Turn off the TV and turn on the tounge. Too many young women are starting to buy into this self-hating mentality. When you see them walking down the street singing songs that degrade them, then you know you have a real problem."
With Doglass's unique family history, he isn't content to just ignore his community's concerns. "We can make excuses like, 'If I had time,'" he says. "We're running out of time. We have to pick up where the civil rights movement left off."
Part of his mission involves mentoring young people. He works at his alma mater, historically black Morgan State University in Baltimore, as director of public affairs. There, in addition to his PR work, he spends hours talking with students who crowd his office between classes to chat about subjects such as music, history, and job interview etiquette. "I seem to be a magnet for students," he says with a chuckle. "They seek me out. I don't mind. Someone has to make time for them."
Douglass, who is married and has two grown children, acknowledges that his name has shaped his life. Raised in Meadville, Pa., he is the youngest of three children. Although his brother Robert was born first, it was Douglass who recieved his father's name. "I was in the right place at the right time," he quips.
"Having this name is a responsibility. It's never been a burden. But you have to live your life on the up and up."
Ironically, in Douglass's predominantly white neighborhood, few of his childhood friends in the 1950's had even heard of his ancestor, who was born a slave arond 1817.
Risking severe punishment, Frederick Douglass taught himself to read and write before escaping from his Maryland masters in 1838. He worked on the docks in New Bedford and established a trade here in Massachusetts. Soon, he began speaking out against slavery, traveling throughout Europe before founding an influential antislavery newspaper, The North Star. He also helped recruit the Massachusetts 54th Regiment, the first black military unit to fight for the North in the Civil War (portrayed in the 1989 movie "Glory").
"It wasn't until the 1960s that there was a resurgance of interest in black historical figures," says Douglass. "In school, George Washington Carver - the peanut man - was the only one mentioned, and in the history books, he was made to look white."
Looking to the future, Douglass is positive. His big hope, which he concedes may never happen, is for African-Americans to receive reparations for slavery. "The word reparations means to repair," he says. "That doesn't mean you get a check and go buy a Lexus. I'm against people getting checks."
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
I'm in agreement with all the opinions expressed here (the last two paragraphs are about reparations):
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
This is an interesting idea, and it's actually close to what most reparations proponents are talking about.
In response to some other posts here, I'd say that we can't simply "get over it and move on" because we didn't really take care of it in the first place. After Emancipation, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15. This was the "forty acres & a mule" thing. It never happened, because President Johnson, Lincoln's successor, revoked it in the fall of the same year.
If the government had addressed reparations in 1865, things might be different now, but all you have to do is look at race relations and economic disparity in this country and see that some of the problems created by slavery are still playing out today, and they need to be addressed with more than "Okay, we're sorry, let's move on now". That doesn't necessarily mean a check for every slave descendant, but some kind of discussion needs to take place.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
Most people who want reparations feel they personally should be able to collect some sort of money or amount for the effects of slavery. That is clearly not the same idea mentioned in the article Kenny O posted. Read the last paragraph of the article.
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
That is balancing the effects of slavery and racism by sponsoring and helping communities become more self-sufficient, profitable and stable. Promoting business's, jobs, education and similar are not handouts - they are ways for people to have access and create their own medium and equity - but not for free - as a stepping stool. That idea is not the main remedy that most people want for "reparations" - they ask for a check for themselves.
This is an interesting idea, and it's actually close to what most reparations proponents are talking about.
In response to some other posts here, I'd say that we can't simply "get over it and move on" because we didn't really take care of it in the first place. After Emancipation, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15. This was the "forty acres & a mule" thing. It never happened, because President Johnson, Lincoln's successor, revoked it in the fall of the same year.
If the government had addressed reparations in 1865, things might be different now, but all you have to do is look at race relations and economic disparity in this country and see that some of the problems created by slavery are still playing out today, and they need to be addressed with more than "Okay, we're sorry, let's move on now". That doesn't necessarily mean a check for every slave descendant, but some kind of discussion needs to take place.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm in agreement with all the opinions expressed here (the last two paragraphs are about reparations):
Looking to the future, Douglass is positive. His big hope, which he concedes may never happen, is for African-Americans to receive reparations for slavery. "The word reparations means to repair," he says. "That doesn't mean you get a check and go buy a Lexus. I'm against people getting checks."
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
I have to admit that I always thought of it in terms of cutting checks to people. This certainly is more logistically feasible and has a lot more potential to help people and the race as a whole.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Most people who want reparations feel they personally should be able to collect some sort of money or amount for the effects of slavery. That is clearly not the same idea mentioned in the article Kenny O posted. Read the last paragraph of the article.
I did read the last paragraph of the article. In fact, I quoted it in my post and commented on it.
Can you cite any statistics or other evidence of public opinion on reparations? How do you know that "Most people who want reparations feel they personally should be able to collect some sort of money..."?
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
What I've read and seen from some quick research, on a person to person scale - more people believe they should be entitled to money for themselves; on a group scale (orgs and politicians backing this issue), mostly agree the first step should be what that article described (community efforts), but many also follow through and belief people should actually collect some sort of money.
I did read the last paragraph of the article. In fact, I quoted it in my post and commented on it.
Can you cite any statistics or other evidence of public opinion on reparations? How do you know that "Most people who want reparations feel they personally should be able to collect some sort of money..."?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Good article Kenny. Fredrick's ideas are definatly better than cutting people checks, but I still dont agree w/ it reason being because the issue still separates blacks from whites. Its still using slavery as an excuse for how things are today.
And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.
Education is a major part of it, but also a large problem that slavery brought about was racism - which we still see today in our society. Handing out money won't fix that, but helping communities to become more stable and better off financially by backing their growth and legitimacy can help remove a portion of it. Poverty breeds crime.
Good article Kenny. Fredrick's ideas are definatly better than cutting people checks, but I still dont agree w/ it reason being because the issue still separates blacks from whites. Its still using slavery as an excuse for how things are today.
And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
That is balancing the effects of slavery and racism by sponsoring and helping communities become more self-sufficient, profitable and stable. Promoting business's, jobs, education and similar are not handouts - they are ways for people to have access and create their own medium and equity - but not for free - as a stepping stool. That idea is not the main remedy that most people want for "reparations" - they ask for a check for themselves.
Hopefully if they did something like that they would revisit the Freedmen's Bureau and learn from that whole situation.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Good article Kenny. Fredrick's ideas are definatly better than cutting people checks, but I still dont agree w/ it reason being because the issue still separates blacks from whites. Its still using slavery as an excuse for how things are today.
And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.
What is really circular, is the debate going on in this thread.
Now for what I hope is my last post in this thread. I'm sure no one will read and pay attention to the points as it seems no one has so far. Sad.
What you see in the Fredrick Douglas article is an example of Black leadership pushing for responsible use of reparations, which, I agree, is a very good thing. He prosposes some very good ideas. That being said, even if the money was used by individuals to buy lexus' and what not, it doesn't matter. Its their inheritance. I'm definitely on the side of responsibility.
Your still missing the point about the role, IMO, of reparations. It isn't intended to right past wrongs, heal all wounds, and reconcile all differences. No amount of money can do that. Its backpay, IMO. Plain and simple. Its money owed.
Lastly, I think many people here talk as if The African slave trade is ancient history. I think someone said something about "great, great, great, or even greater grandchidren...". Do you realize that the slave trade in the United States ended less than 150 years ago? Thats a blink. When dealing with some of the older living African Americans, were potentially dealing with the CHILDREN of slaves.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.
What is really circular, is the debate going on in this thread.
Now for what I hope is my last post in this thread. I'm sure no one will read and pay attention to the points as it seems no one has so far. Sad.
What you see in the Fredrick Douglas article is an example of Black leadership pushing for responsible use of reparations, which, I agree, is a very good thing. He prosposes some very good ideas. That being said, even if the money was used by individuals to buy lexus' and what not, it doesn't matter. Its their inheritance. I'm definitely on the side of responsibility.
Your still missing the point about the role, IMO, of reparations. It isn't intended to right past wrongs, heal all wounds, and reconcile all differences. No amount of money can do that. Its backpay, IMO. Plain and simple. Its money owed.
Lastly, I think many people here talk as if The African slave trade is ancient history. I think someone said something about "great, great, great, or even greater grandchidren...". Do you realize that the slave trade in the United States ended less than 150 years ago? Thats a blink. When dealing with some of the older living African Americans, were potentially dealing with the CHILDREN of slaves.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.
Were millions of them forced on ships to come here to the US, be sold at auctions, and work sunup to sundown without pay while operating as property of someone? Not even mentioning the terrible conditions many were put under.
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I.
Interesting point. But not to change the subject or sound racist here...look at the plight of the Jews (persecuted through the history of mankind) versus the plight of the African Americans and American Indians.
The difference between the Jews and the other groups is that they have risen above the atrocities committed against them and have gone on to be quite the successful, if not one of the most successful (financially), ethnic/religious groups. In the US at least, it seems like they dominate medicine, law, big business, and the entertainment fields.
What drives them? Money? Power? Revenge? Success? All of the above?
I've always wondered if when you're a little Jew, your grandfather, father, or all older family members, take you aside for "the secret discussion" about how we as a people must work harder than the average man, rise up, and rebuild our army of Jews to take over the world.
Any truth to my hypotheses my Jewish friends? I suposse I could try to ask my uncle who married a Jew and has half Jewish kids.
Actually, I heard from my brother who works at Daimler Chrysler that the Germans have a similar long term plan of world domination again.
Same deal probably for the Chinese, and possibly India.
Who is going to knock the US off it's perch, or at least take their place if or when we fall backwards?
Deep...
19 (*soon to be 21) Pearl Jam shows (plus 2 Eddie & 1 TOTD) and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; *2025 (2) - Hollywood, FL I & II
Well you're just comparing different levels of effects from either laws or racism. Just as many other groups in US history, people have been negatively effected by either policies, laws or racism... does that mean everyone blood related to them is owed something?
No one is denying the terrible conditions that was around slavery -directly or indirectly.
Can you atleast acknowledge the example I provided about my ancestors is correct? You may feel more strongly towards your example, but they're just different levels of ill-treatment. Does that mean both deserve something?
Were millions of them forced on ships to come here to the US, be sold at auctions, and work sunup to sundown without pay while operating as property of someone? Not even mentioning the terrible conditions many were put under.
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.
I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
I'm not comparing it to slavery per say... all I'm saying is that the same intent to right a wrong is there. So if I can sit here and say that my example holds weight and is true, wouldn't that entitle me or others to some sort of reparations? Couldn't any group which had unfair treatment against them(whether big or small) be legitimately entitled to some sort of reparations?
The point of a reparation is not just just give a handout or say we're sorry... it's to fix the issue that is left from the wrong doing... ie - slavery helped create a racist nation in which people are unfairly judged and not given the same fair and balanced treatment (whether economically, socially or politically). Handing out money as some sort of "we're sorry bout that" is nothing more than a sham and doesn't address any issue whatsoever.
I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Comments
I know you don't morally agree with any of this, just as I doubt that simply handing out checks would be the way to address the problem, but I do think it's something that should in some way be dealt with. For generations people were deprived of their freedom, had their children ripped right from their arms and sold away, weren't paid for their labor, they were beaten and maimed and raped and god knows what else. Then slavery was abolished, and for another hundred years they didn't have access to quality education, depriving them of the opportunity for good paying jobs ... they weren't able to vote ... they were lynched ... the list of atrocities just goes on and on and on. Hundreds of years of that sort of treatment takes it's toll, you can't just suddenly say "Ok, we'll stop all that, you're equal now," and think that the effects of all that economic and psychological abuse are going to vanish into thin air.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that saying "fuck it, it's ancient history, and besides, I personally never enslaved anyone" isn't it. And anyone who can't understand how this entire country benefitted economically from the institution of slavery, and from the enforced cheap labor of the free black work force ... well, I don't know what to say to such people.
Secondly, tons of ethnic groups, religions and races have been subject to serious and incompressible laws and actions by the US government. Does this honestly mean that everyone effected in a negative manner is due some sort of reparation? Just honestly think about what you're asking when you mention that. Are all the families of Immigrants during the early 20th Century which were turned away from jobs (things like no jews or irish need apply) due some sort of reparation now? Are minorities that are bused across town to poorer, less funded schooling systems in line for handouts because of racism/ poor decision making? Are relatives of Indians due some sort of reparation because our nation butchered their tribes and stole their lands? The list can go on and on... and it would be to the extent that everyone would have a reason or issue that led them to be held back or negatively impacted (some more legitimate than others obviously - but all legitimate generically speaking). So when people talk of reparations for slavery, please consider this. Any Group of People can trace some negative impact from laws, issues or mistreatment in any form possible - so in summation - trying to ask for some sort of handout now (200 yrs later) is assinine - not to mention poorly thought out and it serves no real purpose other than the fact that people want something that they believe is owed to them - but in reality it's just a free handout for something illegitimate.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm not running for president, I never claimed to have all the answers. I am undecided as to what the best approach would be, and very interested in hearing ideas. No, I don't think an apology will suffice. And who's being snotty now?
I'm sorry I didn't see your earlier question. Usually I'd read a whole thread, but I just didn't have a chance today. Of course you're completely right about different types of slaves. I don't know about different compensation in regards to reparations. I don't personally know I completely feel about reparations. But a slave is still a slave. Even though plantation house slaves may have had it 'better' than field slaves, they were still slaves. They weren't counted as people (hey! eventually they had that 3/5 compromise!). They weren't allowed to read or write because 'owners' were afraid they'd organize and rise up. They were sold at auctions. Familes were sometimes separated. I know I said it already, but they were sold. They were property, not people.
cross the river to the eastside
see, i fully agree with this...as my first post exhibits...but yes, i am at a loss on how to turly/accurately and fairly distribute such. not that it's an 'excuse' b/c i agree...just b/c something is difficult should not hinder at least trying.....but yea, i just don't know how we can make reperations that truly do any justice?
i agree 'something' should be done to some degree...although any official apology would seem far too little too late...so i really am at a loss of what we can truly do, etc...thus why i am on the fence all-around. i cannot see a cut-and-dry answer here, not yet anyway.
not to get off topic...but all of this talk of inheritance and such reminds me of england. jane austin's time period, whereas women were not allowed to inherit, so all the money/property went to a male heir if their were no sons, and even with sons, they got all and the daughters nothing...except of course their dowry went to their future husbands. grrrr. just reminded me of all this, obviously NOT the same...not slaves, but still....pisses me off to even think of it too.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
So, here's the solution...when the time comes, every white person can fill out a reparations questionairre asking...
"Would you be willing to put money towards reparations? Yes or No?"
For those that want to pay, feel free...
Dont mean to push, but Im being shoved.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Sure you do, you're just too polite to say it.
If you look hard enough, you'll find a few posts in this thread containing sentiments along the lines of "get over it" and "they're just using it (slavery) as an excuse now".
Why shouldn't the people today "get over it"?
Does it help anyone to keep bringing it up all the time? I'm not saying forget about it, but for shits sake.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
That question crossed my mind today. I mean, slavery is slavery, and is more overt. But there was that whole issue of coverture and all . . .
These are interesting questions, to say the least.
cross the river to the eastside
Freedom in his Blood
By Suzanne C. Ryan
The Boston Globe, February 26, 2001
Great-great grandson of abolitionist Frederick Douglass faces new problems in age-old fight
It's Sunday afternoon and Beacon Hill's African Meeting House is hushed. As a pianist plays gospel music softly, more than 60 people shift in their folding chairs, waiting expectantly for a visitor from Baltimore to take the floor.
As the guest rises from his seat, a quiver of anticipation runs through the crowd, as if history is about to be made. "I'm very concerned about the status of black Americans," he says in a booming tone that resonates across the 195-year-old church like an echo from the past.
The featured speaker is Frederick Douglass IV - great-great-grandson of the famous orator and abolitionist who himself spole passionately in this very sanctuary in the mid-1800s.
Douglass in on a mission, and his agenda mirrors his ancestor's. He wants to free African-Americans, and in the 21st century that means free them economically. Free them from what he calls the immoral influence of rap music. Free them from substandard schools. Free them from a system that incarcerates record numbers of black men. Free them from the Democratic Party - even though he is a Democrat.
Convinced that African-Americans need a revolution, Douglass has hit the lecture circuit. Using his name as a draw, the 54-year-old is visiting churches, schools, and other venues nationwide to spread his message of change. Douglass, who resembles his great-great grandfather, sometimes also dons a top hat, wig, and morning coat and reenacts speeches that the original Fredrick Douglass delivered.
"I want to perpetuate the legacy," he says. "But I feel the need to address what's current."
Today, Douglass is citing a litany of issues in the black community, from teenage pregnancy to the popularity of misogynistic lyrics in hip-hop music. Dressed nattily in a navy suit, bright yellow tie, and coordinating pocket handkerchief, he stomps his foot against the wooden floor for effect as he walks down the aisle, proclaiming, "Until we take the steps necessary for collective change, we aren't going anywhere! Now is the time bring about change."
It has been 138 years since the Emancipation Proclaimation; what would Douglass the elder - who fought so hard and risked so much for progress - think of the state of black America were he alive today?
"He would have mixed emotions," contends Douglass IV. "We've progressed, yet we've regressed. Education is more widespread and material gains are greater ... but the wealth gap between blacks and whites is increasing."
What's more, he adds, many black women are raising children by themselves. Urban schools are short on books. Racial profiling by police is common. Discrimination has been documented at Fortune 100 companies. Even voting rights are in question after the fiasco in Florida over the presidential election.
Meanwhile, he says, many young African-American men and women have been sidetracked by some of the self-hatred lyrics in hip-hop music. "Sometimes I turn on the radio and it breaks my heart. A popular song in Baltimore has the line, 'I want a project chick, I want a parking lot trick.' If your women are ... whores and you're a dog, what are your children?"
"If you hear something long enough, you start to believe it. We have to be self-determining. Unplug the radio. Turn off the TV and turn on the tounge. Too many young women are starting to buy into this self-hating mentality. When you see them walking down the street singing songs that degrade them, then you know you have a real problem."
With Doglass's unique family history, he isn't content to just ignore his community's concerns. "We can make excuses like, 'If I had time,'" he says. "We're running out of time. We have to pick up where the civil rights movement left off."
Part of his mission involves mentoring young people. He works at his alma mater, historically black Morgan State University in Baltimore, as director of public affairs. There, in addition to his PR work, he spends hours talking with students who crowd his office between classes to chat about subjects such as music, history, and job interview etiquette. "I seem to be a magnet for students," he says with a chuckle. "They seek me out. I don't mind. Someone has to make time for them."
Douglass, who is married and has two grown children, acknowledges that his name has shaped his life. Raised in Meadville, Pa., he is the youngest of three children. Although his brother Robert was born first, it was Douglass who recieved his father's name. "I was in the right place at the right time," he quips.
"Having this name is a responsibility. It's never been a burden. But you have to live your life on the up and up."
Ironically, in Douglass's predominantly white neighborhood, few of his childhood friends in the 1950's had even heard of his ancestor, who was born a slave arond 1817.
Risking severe punishment, Frederick Douglass taught himself to read and write before escaping from his Maryland masters in 1838. He worked on the docks in New Bedford and established a trade here in Massachusetts. Soon, he began speaking out against slavery, traveling throughout Europe before founding an influential antislavery newspaper, The North Star. He also helped recruit the Massachusetts 54th Regiment, the first black military unit to fight for the North in the Civil War (portrayed in the 1989 movie "Glory").
"It wasn't until the 1960s that there was a resurgance of interest in black historical figures," says Douglass. "In school, George Washington Carver - the peanut man - was the only one mentioned, and in the history books, he was made to look white."
Looking to the future, Douglass is positive. His big hope, which he concedes may never happen, is for African-Americans to receive reparations for slavery. "The word reparations means to repair," he says. "That doesn't mean you get a check and go buy a Lexus. I'm against people getting checks."
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
This is an interesting idea, and it's actually close to what most reparations proponents are talking about.
In response to some other posts here, I'd say that we can't simply "get over it and move on" because we didn't really take care of it in the first place. After Emancipation, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15. This was the "forty acres & a mule" thing. It never happened, because President Johnson, Lincoln's successor, revoked it in the fall of the same year.
If the government had addressed reparations in 1865, things might be different now, but all you have to do is look at race relations and economic disparity in this country and see that some of the problems created by slavery are still playing out today, and they need to be addressed with more than "Okay, we're sorry, let's move on now". That doesn't necessarily mean a check for every slave descendant, but some kind of discussion needs to take place.
"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."
That is balancing the effects of slavery and racism by sponsoring and helping communities become more self-sufficient, profitable and stable. Promoting business's, jobs, education and similar are not handouts - they are ways for people to have access and create their own medium and equity - but not for free - as a stepping stool. That idea is not the main remedy that most people want for "reparations" - they ask for a check for themselves.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I have to admit that I always thought of it in terms of cutting checks to people. This certainly is more logistically feasible and has a lot more potential to help people and the race as a whole.
I did read the last paragraph of the article. In fact, I quoted it in my post and commented on it.
Can you cite any statistics or other evidence of public opinion on reparations? How do you know that "Most people who want reparations feel they personally should be able to collect some sort of money..."?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Hopefully if they did something like that they would revisit the Freedmen's Bureau and learn from that whole situation.
cross the river to the eastside
What is really circular, is the debate going on in this thread.
Now for what I hope is my last post in this thread. I'm sure no one will read and pay attention to the points as it seems no one has so far. Sad.
What you see in the Fredrick Douglas article is an example of Black leadership pushing for responsible use of reparations, which, I agree, is a very good thing. He prosposes some very good ideas. That being said, even if the money was used by individuals to buy lexus' and what not, it doesn't matter. Its their inheritance. I'm definitely on the side of responsibility.
Your still missing the point about the role, IMO, of reparations. It isn't intended to right past wrongs, heal all wounds, and reconcile all differences. No amount of money can do that. Its backpay, IMO. Plain and simple. Its money owed.
Lastly, I think many people here talk as if The African slave trade is ancient history. I think someone said something about "great, great, great, or even greater grandchidren...". Do you realize that the slave trade in the United States ended less than 150 years ago? Thats a blink. When dealing with some of the older living African Americans, were potentially dealing with the CHILDREN of slaves.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Were millions of them forced on ships to come here to the US, be sold at auctions, and work sunup to sundown without pay while operating as property of someone? Not even mentioning the terrible conditions many were put under.
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
cross the river to the eastside
Interesting point. But not to change the subject or sound racist here...look at the plight of the Jews (persecuted through the history of mankind) versus the plight of the African Americans and American Indians.
The difference between the Jews and the other groups is that they have risen above the atrocities committed against them and have gone on to be quite the successful, if not one of the most successful (financially), ethnic/religious groups. In the US at least, it seems like they dominate medicine, law, big business, and the entertainment fields.
What drives them? Money? Power? Revenge? Success? All of the above?
I've always wondered if when you're a little Jew, your grandfather, father, or all older family members, take you aside for "the secret discussion" about how we as a people must work harder than the average man, rise up, and rebuild our army of Jews to take over the world.
Any truth to my hypotheses my Jewish friends? I suposse I could try to ask my uncle who married a Jew and has half Jewish kids.
Actually, I heard from my brother who works at Daimler Chrysler that the Germans have a similar long term plan of world domination again.
Same deal probably for the Chinese, and possibly India.
Who is going to knock the US off it's perch, or at least take their place if or when we fall backwards?
Deep...
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; *2025 (2) - Hollywood, FL I & II
No one is denying the terrible conditions that was around slavery -directly or indirectly.
Can you atleast acknowledge the example I provided about my ancestors is correct? You may feel more strongly towards your example, but they're just different levels of ill-treatment. Does that mean both deserve something?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.
The point of a reparation is not just just give a handout or say we're sorry... it's to fix the issue that is left from the wrong doing... ie - slavery helped create a racist nation in which people are unfairly judged and not given the same fair and balanced treatment (whether economically, socially or politically). Handing out money as some sort of "we're sorry bout that" is nothing more than a sham and doesn't address any issue whatsoever.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Here's a question: How do you define "Black"?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.