He outlines that Mexicans who come to our country are far less educated than the immigrants that come to other countries, which are compared with us in test scoring. Therefore, our test scores do not completely reflect the "American" component, seeing as how we have so many idiot immigrants coming in with hardly any education.
It's our fault for letting them enter in the first place.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
The working class is on my side. They hate commie fucks.
Is your goal to have side pitted against side meaning the whole split into opposing factions? Have you considered an actual problem solving stance, rather, and what that might look like? They way such problems are approached give direction to the outcome. Therefore looking to attack your neighbour will bring a different outcome than looking to resolve issues with your neighbour.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Is your goal to have side pitted against side meaning the whole split into opposing factions? Have you considered an actual problem solving stance, rather, and what that might look like? They way such problems are approached give direction to the outcome. Therefore looking to attack your neighbour will bring a different outcome than looking to resolve issues with your neighbour.
How do you resolve issues with someone who would like to take away your fundamental liberties?
You kill them.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
How do you resolve issues with someone who would like to take away your fundamental liberties?
You kill them.
Dude, let me say as a conservative, statements like the above do not help conservatism. Statements like this are teh equivalent of the Silent Muslim majority that reportedly abhore the politics of militant Islam.
The working class is on my side. They hate commie fucks.
So communists aren't, and never were throughout history, made up of the working classes, or proletariat? So who were communists then? The middle and upper classes? If you're talking about the modern day working class then your point is meaningless, because there is no communist party to speak of.
Dude, let me say as a conservative, statements like the above do not help conservatism. Statements like this are teh equivalent of the Silent Muslim majority that reportedly abhore the politics of militant Islam.
Patrick Henry once said, "Give me liberty or give me death." Any leader who would take my fundamental rights of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness (which is what is entailed in Communism), I'd rather they die.
Isn't that why we've fought wars? So we could keep our freedom? What I said was not extreme at all.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
So communists aren't, and never were throughout history, made up of the working classes, or proletariat? So who were communists then? The middle and upper classes? If you're talking about the modern day working class then your point is meaningless, because there is no communist party to speak of.
Regular working-class Americans do not want Communism or anything remotely like it. They want their jobs to stop being shipped overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would receive. That's a far cry from Communism.
The Working class in America is as patriotic and supportive of this government as anyone.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
How do you resolve issues with someone who would like to take away your fundamental liberties?
You kill them.
Are you saying because someone has a different viewpoint, you automatically go in the direction of killing them? It sounds like you are glossing over numerous interim stages. Do you recognize this is the underlying dynamic of a country at war with itself?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Regular working-class Americans do not want Communism or anything remotely like it. They want their jobs to stop being shipped overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would receive. That's a far cry from Communism.
The Working class in America is as patriotic and supportive of this government as anyone.
Yo've completely contradicted yourself in this post.
Who is it that's shipping their jobs overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would recieve?
This Government that you presume the working class to be so supportive of is a Government which is encouraging companies to downsize and ship their jobs overseas in order to increase profit.
The enemy of the workers and of the poor isn't other workers and poor, who may just happen to have dark skin and to have hailed from overseas. It's the fat cats that are selling them and their families down the river.
Are you saying because someone has a different viewpoint, you automatically go in the direction of killing them? It sounds like you are glossing over numerous interim stages. Do you recognize this is the underlying dynamic of a country at war with itself?
No, but if Communists like Shapur tried to enforce their views through the government, I think violent opposition to that would be legal.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Yo've completely contradicted yourself in this post.
Who is it that's shipping their jobs overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would recieve?
This Government that you presume the working class to be so supportive of is a Government which is encouraging companies to downsize and ship their jobs overseas in order to increase profit.
The enemy of the workers and of the poor isn't other workers and poor, who may just happen to have dark skin and to have hailed from overseas. It's the fat cats that are selling them and their families down the river.
People who are opposed to shipping jobs overseas must also be necessarily supportive of tarrifs on imported goods. That way, our market can compete because the wages that Americans get are so much higher than foreign wages.
The illegal immigrants that come into our country work for less, necessarily. Therefore, our working class does not want them. Additionally, the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market.
Foreigners have a difficult time understanding our working class because in Europe, the lower classes are so leftist. Our working class might vote democratic more frequently, but they could just as easily vote for a Pat Buchanan as a John Kerry.
The fat cats that you refer to are the same people that I disagree with. Bush's free trade policies with Mexico and China are not good for Americans. We need to look out for Americans - not foreigners.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
then violent opposition of the government's imposition of anything should be considered a valid form of disagreement.
Only when our essential individual liberties are threatened; namely, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then and only then should we impose violent opposition to the government.
If the government taxes my income and I disagree, that's not a threat to my life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. I have opportunities to overturn those laws. But, when the government decides that my income no longer belongs to me, my property no longer belongs to me, or my right to free speech is no longer valid, then I have the right to violent opposition. In a word, if the government became Communist, I would have the right to violent opposition.
The four boxes of freedom are the ballot box, the jury box, the soap box, and finally, the cartridge box.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
No, but if Communists like Shapur tried to enforce their views through the government, I think violent opposition to that would be legal.
Okay, so you realize that "communists like Shapur" trying to enforce their views through the government is a very, very far off type of thing? What I mean is it would take many steps for something like that to happen and it's not even on the radar screen at all now. And should it be on the radar screen sometime, it'll be when many, many people get behind the idea. So therefore what we've got in actuality here is two people--yourself and Shapur--with two different opinions. There is no threat. There is no need to draw lines in the sand or to kill anyone. You can afford to listen to his view, and he can afford to listen to yours. It's for the best interests of your country that those within find ways to stand together, rather than with separation. You spoke earlier of patriotism. Patriotism and love of your country in my mind entails embracing your country and the diversity within it, even when you don't agree with that diversity. Your country is what it is--the good with the bad. I'm all for addressing positive change. However hating and fearing aspects of your own country only contributes to a cancer that eats a way at the country from within, and therefore is the opposite of patriotism in my mind. When a country is being eaten away at from within, it's losing it's own legs--legs it needs to stand on. Real patriotism seems to be to be about truly and actually embracing your country for what it is, and beyond that lies in evolving it, not devolving.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Regular working-class Americans do not want Communism or anything remotely like it. They want their jobs to stop being shipped overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would receive. That's a far cry from Communism.
The Working class in America is as patriotic and supportive of this government as anyone.
The majority of working-class people in the US don't even vote. Especially not for the Bush regime. So I guess you just make facts as you go along and hope no one notices.
Sorry, you have to do better than that.
Also, of course the US working class isn't class-conscious at the moment, if they were you would probably be in a labor camp. Not because you oppose communism, but because you want to actively fight communism.
The same thing would happen to me if I were to actively fight the current government, so shut up about "taking away fundamental liberties".
If you are so sure of the working class supporting you and your rotten system, a system in which the working class is enslaved through wages by capitalist bosses, why are you so quick to threaten me and other comrades with death?
Maybe because deep down you know that there will come a day when the workers will decide they have enough of this shit, and decide to take over everything themselves, like they have done so many times throughout history.
Did you know it took the bourgeoisie, the current ruling class, several centuries and several attempts to be able to take political power from the feudalist ruling class and establish a bourgeois political system? No, of course you didn't, they don't teach you stuff like that in high-school (even though it is controlled by evil commies).
Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Actually the proletarian movement has been more successful in a shorter period of time than the early bourgeois movement was.
The majority of working-class people in the US don't even vote. Especially not for the Bush regime. So I guess you just make facts as you go along and hope no one notices.
Sorry, you have to do better than that.
Also, of course the US working class isn't class-conscious at the moment, if they were you would probably be in a labor camp. Not because you oppose communism, but because you want to actively fight communism.
The same thing would happen to me if I were to actively fight the current government, so shut up about "taking away fundamental liberties".
If you are so sure of the working class supporting you and your rotten system, a system in which the working class is enslaved through wages by capitalist bosses, why are you so quick to threaten me and other comrades with death?
Maybe because deep down you know that there will come a day when the workers will decide they have enough of this shit, and decide to take over everything themselves, like they have done so many times throughout history.
Did you know it took the bourgeoisie, the current ruling class, several centuries and several attempts to be able to take political power from the feudalist ruling class and establish a bourgeois political system? No, of course you didn't, they don't teach you stuff like that in high-school (even though it is controlled by evil commies).
Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Actually the proletarian movement has been more successful in a shorter period of time than the early bourgeois movement was.
I look forward to the day that people like you are in jail.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
The majority of working-class people in the US don't even vote. Especially not for the Bush regime. So I guess you just make facts as you go along and hope no one notices.
Without that vote you're SOL, too. Unless you think our creeping statism will gradually create a command system you're looking for organically.
Also, of course the US working class isn't class-conscious at the moment, if they were you would probably be in a labor camp. Not because you oppose communism, but because you want to actively fight communism.
So you think the working class is just waiting like cattle to be herded into your new system, and if the masses ever got a clue they'd adopt communism?
The same thing would happen to me if I were to actively fight the current government, so shut up about "taking away fundamental liberties".
I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fight". You are currently free to argue your case and explain how we'll be happier, wealthier and more productive under your system, and you'll suffer no repurcussions aside from snide remarks from capitalist pigs like me.
But the system you are evangelising absolutely strips people of their fundamental liberties. It has to. They are no longer free to realize their potential. They are no longer rewarded for hard work, innovation, personal responsibility.
If you are so sure of the working class supporting you and your rotten system, a system in which the working class is enslaved through wages by capitalist bosses, why are you so quick to threaten me and other comrades with death?
I know you weren't directing that at me, since I've never called for your death. I'm humored rather than angered by your pursuit. The working class isn't enslaved at all. The working class is free to trade their labor for a wage with any business that sees value. And the worker is free to increase the value of the work through experience and knowledge and realize a higher wage, or perhaps create a business themselves. It is hardly slavery when two entities enter into a contract of their own volition, free from coersion.
Maybe because deep down you know that there will come a day when the workers will decide they have enough of this shit, and decide to take over everything themselves, like they have done so many times throughout history.
Have done to no avail so many times through history. They trade freedom for real slavery, and in the end stand in bread lines.
Did you know it took the bourgeoisie, the current ruling class, several centuries and several attempts to be able to take political power from the feudalist ruling class and establish a bourgeois political system? No, of course you didn't, they don't teach you stuff like that in high-school (even though it is controlled by evil commies).
You have, on a couple of occasions, talked about the speed with which a command system has done something. So what? To what end? And at what cost? The red Chinese army goose steps better than the American army. Again, so what?
Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Actually the proletarian movement has been more successful in a shorter period of time than the early bourgeois movement was.
Again, your focus is speed for some reason. My focus is staying power. (we're still talking about economic and political systems, right?)
I have tried to figure out what attracts one to a communist system. The only thing I can think of is fear. Fear of not being able to be successful as an individual. Fear of being out worked by a neighbor. Fear of being left to one's own devices. Fear of the responsibility freedom demands.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Free from coercion from the perspective of the capitalist, not the worker. If the worker doesn't work, he starves.
I would think so. Why wouldn't he work? Unemployment in this country is very low, so no excuse there. And let's not talk about the outliers, let's talk about the general case. If work is available and you chose not to work what should be the consequence?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I would think so. Why wouldn't he work? Unemployment in this country is very low, so no excuse there. And let's not talk about the outliers, let's talk about the general case. If work is available and you chose not to work what should be the consequence?
Let me ask you this, if you work, why should the capitalist, who doesn't work, get a share of your labor-value for profit?
That's exploitation, the essence of capitalism, and that coupled with the workers being coerced into working through the risk of starvation, is why we call it wage-slavery.
Let me ask you this, if you work, why should the capitalist, who doesn't work, get a share of your labor-value for profit?
I'm a capitalist and I can tell you that I work my ass off, take risks, create jobs, and have received reward for that. Why should one carrying very little risk receive an non-commensurate reward? I'm sure there are some capitalists who are as you describe and it is an artifact of the system. But most of them are likely where they are through past sucesses. There isn't some magic pill a captialist takes that allows him to sit back and exploit workers.
And in your system, what if one chooses not to work? Is he still given a share of my labor-value through redistribution? Why is theft condoned under your system?
That's exploitation, the essence of capitalism, and that coupled with the workers being coerced into working through the risk of starvation, is why we call it wage-slavery.
This is just one of many places we'll part ways. I see contracts, and market values, and you see slavery. With your system you see equity, and I see force, coersion and theft.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Let me ask you this, if you work, why should the capitalist, who doesn't work, get a share of your labor-value for profit?
That's exploitation, the essence of capitalism, and that coupled with the workers being coerced into working through the risk of starvation, is why we call it wage-slavery.
...because that capitalist is the person who put up the initial investment to get that wage-paying business off the ground. The "labor-value for profit" that you speak of is called a return on investment.
Without private investment and the incentives that go along with it, the capitalist economy would, well, be a lot like Cuba's. There's a reason why Cuban cigars aren't what they used to be.
But I have to agree with you on the concept of wage-slavery. And that's where I have to disagree with jeffbr on the relevance of the low US unemployment rates.
To be considered "employed" in the US of A, one need only have a full-time job. As of this point, many of those full-time jobs are paying minimum wage and slightly above, which are wage points that don't even come close to meeting the cost of living.
So, in effect, employment is, as you said, slavery.
And, of course, this has a lot to do with non-unionized labor. And a big source of non-unionized labor is illegal immigration.
Freedom can only be for the ones with the same political views as yours? You fear communism because it will supposedly take away your liberties but you say you want to kill or jail communists just because they don't share the same political views? Can't you see how ironic not to mention, hypocritical that is?
Don't think you are defending a nation that fights for its freedoms or liberties, the nation you are defending is a white supremacist fascist nation, one that resembles the nation Hitler tried to create and the US was so strongly against.
I'm a capitalist and I can tell you that I work my ass off, take risks, create jobs, and have received reward for that.
Do you own any means of production? If so, then you are a capitalist, then you are part of the bourgeoisie ruling class. If you are just a manager, you are a petty-bourgeoisie in service of the capitalists.
Actually, the term "capitalist" doesn't really suffice, because ideologically there are workers who are capitalists as well, so let's keep this in class terms for clarity.
In class terms, if you don't own any means of production, but do have the power to hire and fire people, you are petty-bourgeois manager of the bourgeoisie class.
And in your system, what if one chooses not to work? Is he still given a share of my labor-value through redistribution? Why is theft condoned under your system?
The difference between capitalism and socialism is that in socialism workers are given their full value of labor (minus some which is needed to pay for healthcare/investments etc.). So no money goes towards profits.
The profit motive will cease to exist, so no more rich people, no more social classes, and no more slavery, and every bad thing that goes along with it.
You say that you deserve to be rewarded for your hard work. So you must agree that the harder a person works the more he deserved to be rewarded, right?
In a socialist economic system, the amount of labor a worker performs is given back to him, so if a workers works more he gets more.
But I'm willing to bet that there are millions of people in the US that not only work harder than you, but longer than you, and are rewarded less than you.
...because that capitalist is the person who put up the initial investment to get that wage-paying business off the ground. The "labor-value for profit" that you speak of is called a return on investment.
You do know that without the workers there would be no profit, right?
Explain to me logically why workers, who are the majority and have the power to take-over a factory, should not do it, and instead keep working for wages that are lower then what their labor-power is worth?
Logically it doesn't make sense. And your argument doesn't make sense either. Was it a return on investment to buy slaves 200 years ago and have them work on your land for nothing? Do you condone that?
It's the same thing. Just because they had the idea to start it and enough money to start it (I wonder where they got that money from?), doesn't mean that they have the right to exploit and enslave others.
Without private investment and the incentives that go along with it, the capitalist economy would, well, be a lot like Cuba's. There's a reason why Cuban cigars aren't what they used to be.
Look at the internet. People are independently making new software that are as good, if not better, than the ones made by corporations, and they put them out for free.
Look at the USSR. Did science and technology stay behind or advance there? It arguably advanced further than ever before in any nation in the history of mankind.
Now look at Africa, South-America, or [insert third world capitalist country]. Are any of those more advanced than Cuba? No, then why are you using Cuba as a comparison with the US economy when it is obvious that Cuba doesn't have the same amount of capital to invest?
It's really intellectually dishonest when people do that. If you want to compare Cuba to another country then compare it to other third world countries like it, and you'll see that people there have it much in Cuba, and that Cuba is just as, if not more, advanced.
People who are opposed to shipping jobs overseas must also be necessarily supportive of tarrifs on imported goods. That way, our market can compete because the wages that Americans get are so much higher than foreign wages.
The illegal immigrants that come into our country work for less, necessarily. Therefore, our working class does not want them. Additionally, the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market.
Foreigners have a difficult time understanding our working class because in Europe, the lower classes are so leftist. Our working class might vote democratic more frequently, but they could just as easily vote for a Pat Buchanan as a John Kerry.
The fat cats that you refer to are the same people that I disagree with. Bush's free trade policies with Mexico and China are not good for Americans. We need to look out for Americans - not foreigners.
You managed to completely evade the subject. You were talking about American jobs being shipped abroad. Who is it that's selling the working classes down the crapper by shipping American jobs to Mexico? What Americans are you referring to that will be benefiting from this increase in profit from higher tarriffs? Not those who are unemployed because their jobs have been shipped abroad? You must be talking about the rich.
As for the working classes not wanting immigrants. Who do you think would fill the jobs that these people do?
You also say that "the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market."
That sentence is utterly ridiculous. You talk about people as though they're one transparent, uniform entity. You live in a very unrealistic world. Something resembling the world of the Smurfs.
People who are opposed to shipping jobs overseas must also be necessarily supportive of tarrifs on imported goods. That way, our market can compete because the wages that Americans get are so much higher than foreign wages.
The illegal immigrants that come into our country work for less, necessarily. Therefore, our working class does not want them. Additionally, the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market.
Foreigners have a difficult time understanding our working class because in Europe, the lower classes are so leftist. Our working class might vote democratic more frequently, but they could just as easily vote for a Pat Buchanan as a John Kerry.
The fat cats that you refer to are the same people that I disagree with. Bush's free trade policies with Mexico and China are not good for Americans. We need to look out for Americans - not foreigners.
You managed to completely evade the subject. You were talking about American jobs being shipped abroad. Who is it that's selling the working classes down the crapper by shipping American jobs to Mexico? What Americans are you referring to that will be benefiting from this increase in profit from higher tarriffs? Not those who are unemployed because their jobs have been shipped abroad? You must be talking about the rich.
As for the working classes not wanting immigrants. Who do you think would fill the jobs that these people do?
You also say that "the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market."
That sentence is utterly ridiculous. You talk about people as though they're one transparent, uniform entity. You live in a very unrealistic world. Something resembling the world of the Smurfs.
You fear communism because it will supposedly take away your liberties but you say you want to kill or jail communists just because they don't share the same political views?
Not because they don't have the same political views as me. Only if they tried to enforce those views. There's a big difference between believing in Santa Claus and forcing others to believe in him as well.
Collin, you're a communist. Now that we're done name-calling, have we gotten anywhere?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Comments
I'm resposting this website because it is so convincing for my argument.
http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/050524_nd.htm
He outlines that Mexicans who come to our country are far less educated than the immigrants that come to other countries, which are compared with us in test scoring. Therefore, our test scores do not completely reflect the "American" component, seeing as how we have so many idiot immigrants coming in with hardly any education.
It's our fault for letting them enter in the first place.
-Enoch Powell
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
How do you resolve issues with someone who would like to take away your fundamental liberties?
You kill them.
-Enoch Powell
Dude, let me say as a conservative, statements like the above do not help conservatism. Statements like this are teh equivalent of the Silent Muslim majority that reportedly abhore the politics of militant Islam.
So communists aren't, and never were throughout history, made up of the working classes, or proletariat? So who were communists then? The middle and upper classes? If you're talking about the modern day working class then your point is meaningless, because there is no communist party to speak of.
Patrick Henry once said, "Give me liberty or give me death." Any leader who would take my fundamental rights of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness (which is what is entailed in Communism), I'd rather they die.
Isn't that why we've fought wars? So we could keep our freedom? What I said was not extreme at all.
-Enoch Powell
Regular working-class Americans do not want Communism or anything remotely like it. They want their jobs to stop being shipped overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would receive. That's a far cry from Communism.
The Working class in America is as patriotic and supportive of this government as anyone.
-Enoch Powell
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Yo've completely contradicted yourself in this post.
Who is it that's shipping their jobs overseas to foreigners for a fraction of the wage that an American would recieve?
This Government that you presume the working class to be so supportive of is a Government which is encouraging companies to downsize and ship their jobs overseas in order to increase profit.
The enemy of the workers and of the poor isn't other workers and poor, who may just happen to have dark skin and to have hailed from overseas. It's the fat cats that are selling them and their families down the river.
No, but if Communists like Shapur tried to enforce their views through the government, I think violent opposition to that would be legal.
-Enoch Powell
then violent opposition of the government's imposition of anything should be considered a valid form of disagreement.
from my window to yours
People who are opposed to shipping jobs overseas must also be necessarily supportive of tarrifs on imported goods. That way, our market can compete because the wages that Americans get are so much higher than foreign wages.
The illegal immigrants that come into our country work for less, necessarily. Therefore, our working class does not want them. Additionally, the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market.
Foreigners have a difficult time understanding our working class because in Europe, the lower classes are so leftist. Our working class might vote democratic more frequently, but they could just as easily vote for a Pat Buchanan as a John Kerry.
The fat cats that you refer to are the same people that I disagree with. Bush's free trade policies with Mexico and China are not good for Americans. We need to look out for Americans - not foreigners.
-Enoch Powell
Only when our essential individual liberties are threatened; namely, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then and only then should we impose violent opposition to the government.
If the government taxes my income and I disagree, that's not a threat to my life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. I have opportunities to overturn those laws. But, when the government decides that my income no longer belongs to me, my property no longer belongs to me, or my right to free speech is no longer valid, then I have the right to violent opposition. In a word, if the government became Communist, I would have the right to violent opposition.
The four boxes of freedom are the ballot box, the jury box, the soap box, and finally, the cartridge box.
-Enoch Powell
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
The majority of working-class people in the US don't even vote. Especially not for the Bush regime. So I guess you just make facts as you go along and hope no one notices.
Sorry, you have to do better than that.
Also, of course the US working class isn't class-conscious at the moment, if they were you would probably be in a labor camp. Not because you oppose communism, but because you want to actively fight communism.
The same thing would happen to me if I were to actively fight the current government, so shut up about "taking away fundamental liberties".
If you are so sure of the working class supporting you and your rotten system, a system in which the working class is enslaved through wages by capitalist bosses, why are you so quick to threaten me and other comrades with death?
Maybe because deep down you know that there will come a day when the workers will decide they have enough of this shit, and decide to take over everything themselves, like they have done so many times throughout history.
Did you know it took the bourgeoisie, the current ruling class, several centuries and several attempts to be able to take political power from the feudalist ruling class and establish a bourgeois political system? No, of course you didn't, they don't teach you stuff like that in high-school (even though it is controlled by evil commies).
Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Actually the proletarian movement has been more successful in a shorter period of time than the early bourgeois movement was.
I look forward to the day that people like you are in jail.
-Enoch Powell
Without that vote you're SOL, too. Unless you think our creeping statism will gradually create a command system you're looking for organically.
So you think the working class is just waiting like cattle to be herded into your new system, and if the masses ever got a clue they'd adopt communism?
I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fight". You are currently free to argue your case and explain how we'll be happier, wealthier and more productive under your system, and you'll suffer no repurcussions aside from snide remarks from capitalist pigs like me.
But the system you are evangelising absolutely strips people of their fundamental liberties. It has to. They are no longer free to realize their potential. They are no longer rewarded for hard work, innovation, personal responsibility.
I know you weren't directing that at me, since I've never called for your death. I'm humored rather than angered by your pursuit. The working class isn't enslaved at all. The working class is free to trade their labor for a wage with any business that sees value. And the worker is free to increase the value of the work through experience and knowledge and realize a higher wage, or perhaps create a business themselves. It is hardly slavery when two entities enter into a contract of their own volition, free from coersion.
Have done to no avail so many times through history. They trade freedom for real slavery, and in the end stand in bread lines.
You have, on a couple of occasions, talked about the speed with which a command system has done something. So what? To what end? And at what cost? The red Chinese army goose steps better than the American army. Again, so what?
Again, your focus is speed for some reason. My focus is staying power. (we're still talking about economic and political systems, right?)
I have tried to figure out what attracts one to a communist system. The only thing I can think of is fear. Fear of not being able to be successful as an individual. Fear of being out worked by a neighbor. Fear of being left to one's own devices. Fear of the responsibility freedom demands.
Free from coercion from the perspective of the capitalist, not the worker. If the worker doesn't work, s/he starves.
Are you rallying behind capitalism or fascism now?
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
I would think so. Why wouldn't he work? Unemployment in this country is very low, so no excuse there. And let's not talk about the outliers, let's talk about the general case. If work is available and you chose not to work what should be the consequence?
Let me ask you this, if you work, why should the capitalist, who doesn't work, get a share of your labor-value for profit?
That's exploitation, the essence of capitalism, and that coupled with the workers being coerced into working through the risk of starvation, is why we call it wage-slavery.
I'm a capitalist and I can tell you that I work my ass off, take risks, create jobs, and have received reward for that. Why should one carrying very little risk receive an non-commensurate reward? I'm sure there are some capitalists who are as you describe and it is an artifact of the system. But most of them are likely where they are through past sucesses. There isn't some magic pill a captialist takes that allows him to sit back and exploit workers.
And in your system, what if one chooses not to work? Is he still given a share of my labor-value through redistribution? Why is theft condoned under your system?
This is just one of many places we'll part ways. I see contracts, and market values, and you see slavery. With your system you see equity, and I see force, coersion and theft.
...because that capitalist is the person who put up the initial investment to get that wage-paying business off the ground. The "labor-value for profit" that you speak of is called a return on investment.
Without private investment and the incentives that go along with it, the capitalist economy would, well, be a lot like Cuba's. There's a reason why Cuban cigars aren't what they used to be.
But I have to agree with you on the concept of wage-slavery. And that's where I have to disagree with jeffbr on the relevance of the low US unemployment rates.
To be considered "employed" in the US of A, one need only have a full-time job. As of this point, many of those full-time jobs are paying minimum wage and slightly above, which are wage points that don't even come close to meeting the cost of living.
So, in effect, employment is, as you said, slavery.
And, of course, this has a lot to do with non-unionized labor. And a big source of non-unionized labor is illegal immigration.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Freedom can only be for the ones with the same political views as yours? You fear communism because it will supposedly take away your liberties but you say you want to kill or jail communists just because they don't share the same political views? Can't you see how ironic not to mention, hypocritical that is?
Don't think you are defending a nation that fights for its freedoms or liberties, the nation you are defending is a white supremacist fascist nation, one that resembles the nation Hitler tried to create and the US was so strongly against.
naděje umírá poslední
Do you own any means of production? If so, then you are a capitalist, then you are part of the bourgeoisie ruling class. If you are just a manager, you are a petty-bourgeoisie in service of the capitalists.
Actually, the term "capitalist" doesn't really suffice, because ideologically there are workers who are capitalists as well, so let's keep this in class terms for clarity.
In class terms, if you don't own any means of production, but do have the power to hire and fire people, you are petty-bourgeois manager of the bourgeoisie class.
The difference between capitalism and socialism is that in socialism workers are given their full value of labor (minus some which is needed to pay for healthcare/investments etc.). So no money goes towards profits.
The profit motive will cease to exist, so no more rich people, no more social classes, and no more slavery, and every bad thing that goes along with it.
You say that you deserve to be rewarded for your hard work. So you must agree that the harder a person works the more he deserved to be rewarded, right?
In a socialist economic system, the amount of labor a worker performs is given back to him, so if a workers works more he gets more.
But I'm willing to bet that there are millions of people in the US that not only work harder than you, but longer than you, and are rewarded less than you.
Explain how that is fair.
You do know that without the workers there would be no profit, right?
Explain to me logically why workers, who are the majority and have the power to take-over a factory, should not do it, and instead keep working for wages that are lower then what their labor-power is worth?
Logically it doesn't make sense. And your argument doesn't make sense either. Was it a return on investment to buy slaves 200 years ago and have them work on your land for nothing? Do you condone that?
It's the same thing. Just because they had the idea to start it and enough money to start it (I wonder where they got that money from?), doesn't mean that they have the right to exploit and enslave others.
Look at the internet. People are independently making new software that are as good, if not better, than the ones made by corporations, and they put them out for free.
Look at the USSR. Did science and technology stay behind or advance there? It arguably advanced further than ever before in any nation in the history of mankind.
Now look at Africa, South-America, or [insert third world capitalist country]. Are any of those more advanced than Cuba? No, then why are you using Cuba as a comparison with the US economy when it is obvious that Cuba doesn't have the same amount of capital to invest?
It's really intellectually dishonest when people do that. If you want to compare Cuba to another country then compare it to other third world countries like it, and you'll see that people there have it much in Cuba, and that Cuba is just as, if not more, advanced.
You managed to completely evade the subject. You were talking about American jobs being shipped abroad. Who is it that's selling the working classes down the crapper by shipping American jobs to Mexico? What Americans are you referring to that will be benefiting from this increase in profit from higher tarriffs? Not those who are unemployed because their jobs have been shipped abroad? You must be talking about the rich.
As for the working classes not wanting immigrants. Who do you think would fill the jobs that these people do?
You also say that "the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market."
That sentence is utterly ridiculous. You talk about people as though they're one transparent, uniform entity. You live in a very unrealistic world. Something resembling the world of the Smurfs.
You managed to completely evade the subject. You were talking about American jobs being shipped abroad. Who is it that's selling the working classes down the crapper by shipping American jobs to Mexico? What Americans are you referring to that will be benefiting from this increase in profit from higher tarriffs? Not those who are unemployed because their jobs have been shipped abroad? You must be talking about the rich.
As for the working classes not wanting immigrants. Who do you think would fill the jobs that these people do?
You also say that "the working class has values: they believe in God, are opposed to gay-marriage, are patriotic, support individual liberty and gun rights, and like the free market."
That sentence is utterly ridiculous. You talk about people as though they're one transparent, uniform entity. You live in a very unrealistic world. Something resembling the world of the Smurfs.
Not because they don't have the same political views as me. Only if they tried to enforce those views. There's a big difference between believing in Santa Claus and forcing others to believe in him as well.
Collin, you're a communist. Now that we're done name-calling, have we gotten anywhere?
-Enoch Powell