no one is trying to control your reproductive rights. no one is trying to FORCE you to become pregnant, nor are they trying to FORCE you to not become pregnant.
but, once you are pregnant, you are trying to FORCE your will on the other being by (in my view, selfishly) imposing YOUR views on another being. and you are also trying to FORCE your views on the other person necessary for you to become pregnant, namely the male, by saying that it is for you to decide and you only.
Hahaha, well, I AM male. If I were in a relationship, I would hope to be open to dialogue with my partner and that we would have an equal decision in the process. Personally, I am not FOR abortion. I doubt many people here are. The point is that it is not our place to tell a woman what to do (outside of our personal relationships). That said, I disagree with your comparison of a woman forcing her view on this being, as you call it. I don't believe a fetus to be a human being. The potential is there, sure. But a fetus is not an independently sustainable, fully formed human being living in our society. Until it does, it is part and property of the mother.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
It's impossible not to get frustrated and annoyed with the other side in an argument like this.
This is one of those topics where both sides really can't stand the other viewpoint.
I can stand them and their opinions, I just can't stand that when we get into these discussions, they can't answer any of the logical questions posed to them in a straightforward manner. I've posed many a logical/philosophical query only to be met with rhetorical answers, evasiveness and smugness.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
for me, to put it in the most simplistic terms . . . to end the process of possibility for something that *may* be . . . in opposition to ending the future of possibilities for someone that *is*...and therein lies the difference, and the morality.
This is one of those topics where both sides really can't stand the other viewpoint.
i cannot speak for all on the other side of the fence, but for me, entirely untrue. i can stand, tolerate, respect the other viewpoint . . . and all i ask is the same. you live your life, i'll live mine . . . and allow all to make their own decisions, their own choices.
no one is trying to control your reproductive rights. no one is trying to FORCE you to become pregnant, nor are they trying to FORCE you to not become pregnant.
but, once you are pregnant, you are trying to FORCE your will on the other being by (in my view, selfishly) imposing YOUR views on another being. and you are also trying to FORCE your views on the other person necessary for you to become pregnant, namely the male, by saying that it is for you to decide and you only.
see, here's the impasse. a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to carry the pregnancy to term. out of respect for her partner, she tells him and makes her wishes known. he counters with the wish that the pregnancy be continued. she tells him that having been pregnant before and knowing in all honesty what having this child will do to her, says she can not become a mother again. for her own mental well being she knows what her choice should be. the partner disagrees with her. he wants the child. he is now trying to force his will on her. her choice is simple isn't it? she loses her partner or she loses her sanity. i know which choice i would make.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I've posed many a logical/philosophical query only to be met with rhetorical answers, evasiveness and smugness.
You can't play the logic card in a discussion like this. I think my views are much more logical than yours, and you think your views are more logical than mine.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
Laws against murder prevent the 'choice' to commit murder.
Laws against stealing prevent the 'choice to steal.
Et cetera, et cetera.
But you've yet to explain in any factual or logical way how you arrived at the conclusion that a human embryo is the same thing as a fully developed human being. Until you can, your opinion is merely your opinion and is of no consequence to anyone with a different opinion.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
But you've yet to explain in any factual or logical way how you arrived at the conclusion that a human embryo is the same thing as a fully developed human being. Until you can, your opinion is merely your opinion and is of no consequence to anyone with a different opinion.
I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.
A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.
When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.
A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.
When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
Dare I ask about stem cells? Are you willing to destroy embryos to get the stem cells? Are the embryos in freezers also human life?
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.
A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.
When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.
Look... it's obviously MY OPINION. If there were any concrete facts in a discussion like this, there would be no debate.
It's like saying that you need to state facts to support a claim that you don't like chocolate. It's clearly just someone's opinion.
(and if you ask me, a fertilized chicken egg is equivalent to a chicken...)
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.
Is there any reason to believe that a developing fetus won't develop into a human being? Aside from miscarriage (a possible survival adaptation) is there a reason to believe that the cells that are joined at conception won't develop into a human? There is all sorts of evidence that shows the embryonic development of life... which is the hard part of the issue. No one can agree what life is and when life begins. A sperm and egg that join are living cells. Those living cells begin to mature and divide into other living cells. No where along the way has life (rather something being living) ceased or not been; there is always a component of living things in development. It may come down to some people, how much does this cellular organism resemble a human and that's an argument I can accept...I don't agree with it but I can accept that some people feel that since there isn't a heartbeat or liver cells etc... at a very early stage that it's not capable of being an indepently functioning person; I can see that thought process. But I can't see how people can say it may not become human...pregnancy was designed for the reproduction of the species.
If we don't abort a human fetus (artificially), the odds are that it will become a viable human...I imagine you won't disagree with that...the opinion comes in that it is equivolent to killing an out of womb human being.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.
how is that an opinion? im no doctor but I thought a fetus becomes a human being? we arent born fully grown adults. isnt that a fact?
and in YOUR opinion a fetus is not a fully developed human being? really doctor?
so its ok to "murder" a fetus, taking away its chance to grow into a human.
how about an abortion that is in the late stages of pregnacy? some of those fetuses sure do look human to me.
im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
I can stand them and their opinions, I just can't stand that when we get into these discussions, they can't answer any of the logical questions posed to them in a straightforward manner. I've posed many a logical/philosophical query only to be met with rhetorical answers, evasiveness and smugness.
reason we must continue to keep asking these seemingly straight forward questions...they are reading..and with all their might resisting contemplating them...but on a subconciouse level..they are indeed processing. Very hard to change inputs from the past...but new inputs do make a difference.
And remember......we are soooo special. (-:
Watched a great program on grey whales on PBS yesterday......like to see a human navigate the oceans.... communicate...cool stuff.
reason we must continue to keep asking these seemingly straight forward questions...they are reading..and with all their might resisting contemplating them...but on a subconciouse level..they are indeed processing. Very hard to change inputs from the past...but new inputs do make a difference.
Gee, now that I think about it, you guys are 100% correct in everything you say!
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
how is that an opinion? im no doctor but I thought a fetus becomes a human being? we arent born fully grown adults. isnt that a fact?
Of course it becomes a human being, but destroying it before it is fully developed, before it has a nervous system or consciousness, is not the same as killing a mature being.
so its ok to "murder" a fetus, taking away its chance to grow into a human.
In my opinion, we are under no obligation to allow every fertilized egg to grow to maturity. In my opinion, the word "murder" cannot be used to describe the destruction of a pre-conscious being. And of course, because it is merely my opinion, I don't attempt to compel others to behave in accordance with it. I highly recommend that those who are opposed to abortion refrain from having abortions.
how about an abortion that is in the late stages of pregnacy? some of those fetuses sure do look human to me.
Before 20 weeks or so, a fetus doesn't have the ability to feel pain or to comprehend what is happening to it, or even that it exists. Once it has that capacity, my opinion is that abortion is only acceptable to save the life of the mother, or to prevent permanent damage to her health.
im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
Clearly, you aren't comprehending the purpose of the analogies.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
Once again ... I am not questioning whether or not it's ok to eat eggs. I think that it is. I am asking whether cracking eggs is the same thing as chopping the heads off chickens, whether sweeping up acorns is the same thing as chopping down trees .... not whether they are the same thing as having an abortion.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Your responses to them indicate that you aren't comprehending them.
Once again ... I am not questioning whether or not it's ok to eat eggs. I think that it is. I am asking whether cracking eggs is the same thing as chopping the heads off chickens, whether sweeping up acorns is the same thing as chopping down trees .... not whether they are the same thing as having an abortion.
Are you still in here spewing your murderous ways?
I guess these discussions really are pointless. not everyone will agree when human life begins.
I wont be marching either way.
you want to keep it legal to abort a baby, ok. personally, I cant ever see it being justified, and I'm also not a woman. its not my body we are talking about.
you want to make it illegal? ok fine. alot more babies will get a chance to live when otherwise they wouldn't
I guess these discussions really are pointless. not everyone will agree when human life begins.
I wont be marching either way.
you want to keep it legal to abort a baby, ok. personally, I cant ever see it being justified, and I'm also not a woman. its not my body we are talking about.
you want to make it illegal? ok fine. alot more babies will get a chance to live when otherwise they wouldn't
and a lot more will end up in the trash, murdered, starved, sexually abused, bounced around a fucked up foster care system, dumb, on welfare, divorced, having more out of wedlock/unwanted kids, etc...
and a lot more will end up in the trash, murdered, starved, sexually abused, bounced around a fucked up foster care system, dumb, on welfare, divorced, having more out of wedlock/unwanted kids, etc...
actually, im more a proponent of sterilization for dumb people. but im not getting what i want any time soon. in any case, you statement again assumes abortion is "killing" something, a point we will never see eye to eye on.
i do have a question though. what about rape? do you think there should be an exception for abortion in cases of rape or incest?
Comments
OOPS.SORRY.
THAT'S NOT MURDER JUST LIKE THE DEATH PENALTY,IS IT?
A whisper and a chill
adv2005
"Why do I bother?"
The 11th Commandment.
"Whatever"
PETITION TO STOP THE BAN OF SMOKING IN BARS IN THE UNITED STATES....Anyone?
***I just jumped in now, didn't really read anything before, just what it looks like to me***
Hahaha, well, I AM male. If I were in a relationship, I would hope to be open to dialogue with my partner and that we would have an equal decision in the process. Personally, I am not FOR abortion. I doubt many people here are. The point is that it is not our place to tell a woman what to do (outside of our personal relationships). That said, I disagree with your comparison of a woman forcing her view on this being, as you call it. I don't believe a fetus to be a human being. The potential is there, sure. But a fetus is not an independently sustainable, fully formed human being living in our society. Until it does, it is part and property of the mother.
nowadays hits you when you're young
I can stand them and their opinions, I just can't stand that when we get into these discussions, they can't answer any of the logical questions posed to them in a straightforward manner. I've posed many a logical/philosophical query only to be met with rhetorical answers, evasiveness and smugness.
nowadays hits you when you're young
for me, to put it in the most simplistic terms . . . to end the process of possibility for something that *may* be . . . in opposition to ending the future of possibilities for someone that *is*...and therein lies the difference, and the morality.
i cannot speak for all on the other side of the fence, but for me, entirely untrue. i can stand, tolerate, respect the other viewpoint . . . and all i ask is the same. you live your life, i'll live mine . . . and allow all to make their own decisions, their own choices.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
see, here's the impasse. a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to carry the pregnancy to term. out of respect for her partner, she tells him and makes her wishes known. he counters with the wish that the pregnancy be continued. she tells him that having been pregnant before and knowing in all honesty what having this child will do to her, says she can not become a mother again. for her own mental well being she knows what her choice should be. the partner disagrees with her. he wants the child. he is now trying to force his will on her. her choice is simple isn't it? she loses her partner or she loses her sanity. i know which choice i would make.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You can't play the logic card in a discussion like this. I think my views are much more logical than yours, and you think your views are more logical than mine.
Making choices for others... it's called a "law."
Laws against murder prevent the 'choice' to commit murder.
Laws against stealing prevent the 'choice to steal.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Page six:
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
No. I am all for stem cell research, because those embryos will never become a breathing human being.
Look... it's obviously MY OPINION. If there were any concrete facts in a discussion like this, there would be no debate.
It's like saying that you need to state facts to support a claim that you don't like chocolate. It's clearly just someone's opinion.
(and if you ask me, a fertilized chicken egg is equivalent to a chicken...)
Is there any reason to believe that a developing fetus won't develop into a human being? Aside from miscarriage (a possible survival adaptation) is there a reason to believe that the cells that are joined at conception won't develop into a human? There is all sorts of evidence that shows the embryonic development of life... which is the hard part of the issue. No one can agree what life is and when life begins. A sperm and egg that join are living cells. Those living cells begin to mature and divide into other living cells. No where along the way has life (rather something being living) ceased or not been; there is always a component of living things in development. It may come down to some people, how much does this cellular organism resemble a human and that's an argument I can accept...I don't agree with it but I can accept that some people feel that since there isn't a heartbeat or liver cells etc... at a very early stage that it's not capable of being an indepently functioning person; I can see that thought process. But I can't see how people can say it may not become human...pregnancy was designed for the reproduction of the species.
If we don't abort a human fetus (artificially), the odds are that it will become a viable human...I imagine you won't disagree with that...the opinion comes in that it is equivolent to killing an out of womb human being.
how is that an opinion? im no doctor but I thought a fetus becomes a human being? we arent born fully grown adults. isnt that a fact?
and in YOUR opinion a fetus is not a fully developed human being? really doctor?
so its ok to "murder" a fetus, taking away its chance to grow into a human.
how about an abortion that is in the late stages of pregnacy? some of those fetuses sure do look human to me.
im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
reason we must continue to keep asking these seemingly straight forward questions...they are reading..and with all their might resisting contemplating them...but on a subconciouse level..they are indeed processing. Very hard to change inputs from the past...but new inputs do make a difference.
And remember......we are soooo special. (-:
Watched a great program on grey whales on PBS yesterday......like to see a human navigate the oceans.... communicate...cool stuff.
Gee, now that I think about it, you guys are 100% correct in everything you say!
thats funny....(-; not being sarcastic.
...remember....we once thought the earth was flat...we do evolve....ha ha .
Not, it's not my opinion. It is a FACT that a fetus is not fully developed.
In my opinion, we are under no obligation to allow every fertilized egg to grow to maturity. In my opinion, the word "murder" cannot be used to describe the destruction of a pre-conscious being. And of course, because it is merely my opinion, I don't attempt to compel others to behave in accordance with it. I highly recommend that those who are opposed to abortion refrain from having abortions.
Before 20 weeks or so, a fetus doesn't have the ability to feel pain or to comprehend what is happening to it, or even that it exists. Once it has that capacity, my opinion is that abortion is only acceptable to save the life of the mother, or to prevent permanent damage to her health.
Clearly, you aren't comprehending the purpose of the analogies.
must you always be so condesending. yes I comprehend the purpose of the analogies. I dont think they are useful to this discussion.
Once again ... I am not questioning whether or not it's ok to eat eggs. I think that it is. I am asking whether cracking eggs is the same thing as chopping the heads off chickens, whether sweeping up acorns is the same thing as chopping down trees .... not whether they are the same thing as having an abortion.
Are you still in here spewing your murderous ways?
Can't let it go, huh?
I wont be marching either way.
you want to keep it legal to abort a baby, ok. personally, I cant ever see it being justified, and I'm also not a woman. its not my body we are talking about.
you want to make it illegal? ok fine. alot more babies will get a chance to live when otherwise they wouldn't
and a lot more will end up in the trash, murdered, starved, sexually abused, bounced around a fucked up foster care system, dumb, on welfare, divorced, having more out of wedlock/unwanted kids, etc...
so killing them is justified. what was I thinking
actually, im more a proponent of sterilization for dumb people. but im not getting what i want any time soon. in any case, you statement again assumes abortion is "killing" something, a point we will never see eye to eye on.
i do have a question though. what about rape? do you think there should be an exception for abortion in cases of rape or incest?